A 40K industrial hive world in Trek

[Connor MacLeod]

This is going to depend alot on the "type" of Hive world. There are "billions" of "hive worlds" after all (Thank you Heart of Rage! )

First, and probably least common, are the really old hive worlds. The most technically advanced, the ones with the biggest population. Where the world's enviroment is fucked up or nearly so, resources are either close to tapping out or have been tapped out, and everyone is crazy to one degree or another. These are Hive worlds in the "classic" sense, spanning from ealry (2nd-3rd) edition and resurrected in 5th.

Then you have the "interim" hive worlds. They have smaller populations (tens of billions mayhap) but will have something resembling a viable enviroment (people can go outside with gas masks) - Hydraphur fro the Shira Calpurnia novels and Verghast from Necropolis are examples here. Alot of "hive worlds" from the FFG RPGs also qualify here, as do the numerous novels and spinoff sources (Battlefleet gothic and the like.)

A subset of this are "smaller" hives on planets that are uninhabitable on the surface and below ground (Tallarn and Krie

The last category we might consider are "pseudo hives" or "proto-hives". Places that may have hives but not neccesarily the "staggering" populations. Forge Worlds and industrial worlds, mining worlds, heavily industrial or urbanized Civilised worlds, etc. Populations may be in the billions or even millions and the planet may or may not be habitable. It may even be placed on moons (Eg mining/industrial worlds, and some forge worlds.) We know from Battlezone Cityfight that hives usually evolve from other world classifications (and may cross over into them). These are hive worlds in the loosest sense of the word.



Food is.. up for debate. On one hand you have the common blurb about how Hives need food to support their populaces and without which they (eventually) starve. A good example being Orar from Battlefleet gothic (had a population of around 80 billion.)

Then again you have places like Necromunda, which has an order of magntidue more populace than Orar (by any estimate) but can support a massive (billions or more, close to or exceeding the population of the upper classes of The Hives) populaton on the underhive ecosystem alone (rat, snake, etc.)

And then there are those who continually reclaim and recycle anything organic in the hives (including dead human bodies) for food or water (good old corpse starch) like Stalinvast in Inquisitor. I imagine other planets may have hydroponics or similar technologies for food growing to at least supplement supplies. Or orbital farms.

The other key thing (for an industrial world) is going to be resources. If they don't have it on the ground or in orbit, they'll need it imported. (many of the older ones do to support the highly specialized and massive industrial infrastructure they have, like Necromunda and Armageddon)

Anyhow, the big factor is going to be what sort of FTL ships (if any) the Hive World has or can build.

[stormthebeaches]

I don't know why people are saying that 40K's method of FTL wouldn't work in the Star Trek galaxy. The warp is suppose to be present everywhere. The hive world may no longer have the Astronomican but the warp will be calm so the Astronomican will no longer be necessary.

[Serafina]

I don't know why people are saying that 40K's method of FTL wouldn't work in the Star Trek galaxy. The warp is suppose to be present everywhere. The hive world may no longer have the Astronomican but the warp will be calm so the Astronomican will no longer be necessary.

Taking the warp away completely simply violates all established VS-conventions - it arbitrarily weakens 40K. It's like taking hyperspace away from Star Wars, or making ST-technobabble not work in B5, or the like.

But hey, let's roll with it for a second. The travel-incapable hive world will now simply sell 40K-level products to the Federation in exchange for food and resources. How that works out depends on too many factors - the hive worlds government and how loyal it is to the IoM, Treks response and much more.

[Junghalli]

Taking the warp away completely simply violates all established VS-conventions - it arbitrarily weakens 40K.

On the other hand it does remove the opportunity to play the old "40K has much huger yields than Trek so a single warship is in orbit around the planet and proceeds to pwn everybody" card, which arguably makes the scenario more interesting.

[IvanTih]

Actually, the food is more likely to be grown inside the hives. Yes, it's only mushroom, algea and the like - but that IS food. Maybe not tasty, but enough to survive.

Ah yeh, good old Grade C Sludge Extract, it's what's for dinner for most necromundan underhivers.

Corpse Starch(wrong spelling maybe) also used on space ships for ratings while captains presumably get real tasty food.

[wautd]

Anyhow, the big factor is going to be what sort of FTL ships (if any) the Hive World has or can build.

Speaking of the example in the OP, Tracian Primaris became the new subsector capital world due their strong industry, including their orbital shipyards. ( if I recall the Eisenhorn trilogy correctly)

[IvanTih]

Anyhow, the big factor is going to be what sort of FTL ships (if any) the Hive World has or can build.

Speaking of the example in the OP, Tracian Primaris became the new subsector capital world due their strong industry, including their orbital shipyards. ( if I recall the Eisenhorn trilogy correctly)

Then we have practically a heavily fortified system in ST universe,I mean any attacker can be repelled,then we have ground forces.

[Gunhead]

What about internal dissent? Any go happy would be dictator who has been plotting making himself king of the hill would have his chance right here. Considering how many people are ready to make a play for it even when there's a risk of backlash from the Imperium, well no more. No one is going to drop a few divisions of IG on you. Not to mention space marines. There are local forces, presumably quite a lot of them, considering it's a system where ships are built, but that's it.
Inquisitorial presence would what they had in system when the transition happened, and no one can say they'd be above making themselves rulers, all in the name of the emperor of course.
Then finally when the situation is revealed to the masses, which it will. I see it being only a matter of time until it happens, might even take a long time, but the effects could be spectacular to say the least.

If there is inquisitorial presence in system, I'd give them the best starting point for taking charge along with current planetary governor.
They are usually in the know about local happenings and have authority that few have the status/balls to go against. If they're quick about it, they should be able to make a power base so strong that any opposing faction would at least be quieted down for the time being.
Of course it's totally different if the local governor and Inquisition are already poor terms. Now that is something that could really cause some interesting situations.


-Gunhead

[Imperial528]

I sense that a crossover fic will emerge from this one day. It would make a very interesting plot. Let's see Picard negotiate with people who live in fear of shit that makes WWII look all happy and joyous in comparison.

[IvanTih]

Words

You forget that people living in hives don't know nothing about the world outside.Plus we have Imperium's propaganda which really boosts morale.

[IvanTih]

I sense that a crossover fic will emerge from this one day. It would make a very interesting plot. Let's see Picard negotiate with people who live in fear of shit that makes WWII look all happy and joyous in comparison.

When they see abhumans(or mutants,aliens from ST will look like that to the Imperium) they are going to be worried about some weird examples(Andorians) and so they can declare Picard a heretic for allowing "mutants" to be able to walk free amongst normal humans.

[Gunhead]

Words

You forget that people living in hives don't know nothing about the world outside.

Oh right, you honestly believe you can keep 20 billion people in the dark, in a system that has massive space presence already? Nobody in a high position is not going to wonder what happened to scheduled transports? No one is going to notice that incoming freight on planet suddenly plummets?
No one in the hive has a channel to the outside? Not even the thousands, more likely millions of traders who need a connection to other planets that suddenly is lost and no one says why?

Yeah, total fucking secrecy guaranteed forever.

-Gunhead

[Imperial528]

I sense that a crossover fic will emerge from this one day. It would make a very interesting plot. Let's see Picard negotiate with people who live in fear of shit that makes WWII look all happy and joyous in comparison.

When they see abhumans(or mutants,aliens from ST will look like that to the Imperium) they are going to be worried about some weird examples(Andorians) and so they can declare Picard a heretic for allowing "mutants" to be able to walk free amongst normal humans.

All the better. ST needs to be exposed to, say, the "other side" of morality.

[IvanTih]

Words

You forget that people living in hives don't know nothing about the world outside.

Oh right, you honestly believe you can keep 20 billion people in the dark, in a system that has massive space presence already? Nobody in a high position is not going to wonder what happened to scheduled transports? No one is going to notice that incoming freight on planet suddenly plummets?
No one in the hive has a channel to the outside? Not even the thousands, more likely millions of traders who need a connection to other planets that suddenly is lost and no one says why?

Yeah, total fucking secrecy guaranteed forever.

-Gunhead

Yeah,I concede.

[IvanTih]

I sense that a crossover fic will emerge from this one day. It would make a very interesting plot. Let's see Picard negotiate with people who live in fear of shit that makes WWII look all happy and joyous in comparison.

When they see abhumans(or mutants,aliens from ST will look like that to the Imperium) they are going to be worried about some weird examples(Andorians) and so they can declare Picard a heretic for allowing "mutants" to be able to walk free amongst normal humans.

All the better. ST needs to be exposed to, say, the "other side" of morality.

Sometimes I get irritated by Federation's culture.It's too moral.Who cares about Ocampa when you're stuck on a another side of galaxy(Voyager is an example of a bad writing).

[Gunhead]

IvanTih, just to elaborate a little further. I'm not saying a collapse would be imminent, or that it's even certain there would be one. Local disturbances in the warp are not unheard of. A planet can be isolated for extended periods of time and there's nothing abnormal about it to your average imp. Well, aside from the possible increased psychic activity and ill omens and all that.
I don't see a reason why this at first wouldn't be viewed as an inconvenient occurrence.
But as more time passes more and more are thing becoming to light that this is not your average warp anomaly.
Looking this in a timescale of years is more what I'm going for and that there's a real danger of social, economic, religious and psychological unraveling of massive proportions if nothing is done.

-Gunhead

[Junghalli]

All the better. ST needs to be exposed to, say, the "other side" of morality.

It's not like the Star Trek universe doesn't already contain plenty of factions with very different morality from the Federation (Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, Borg etc.). A bunch of rabidly xenophobic nutters isn't going to be exactly an OCP to the Federation (although 40K people would probably be notable for their exceptional nucking futtery).

[IvanTih]

IvanTih, just to elaborate a little further. I'm not saying a collapse would be imminent, or that it's even certain there would be one. Local disturbances in the warp are not unheard of. A planet can be isolated for extended periods of time and there's nothing abnormal about it to your average imp. Well, aside from the possible increased psychic activity and ill omens and all that.
I don't see a reason why this at first wouldn't be viewed as an inconvenient occurrence.
But as more time passes more and more are thing becoming to light that this is not your average warp anomaly.
Looking this in a timescale of years is more what I'm going for and that there's a real danger of social, economic, religious and psychological unraveling of massive proportions if nothing is done.

-Gunhead

If they have ships(and FTL capable) that are superior to ST they can practically threaten everyone and receive tribute from them.
I wonder how awesome would be Imperial ships with ST warp drive used for intra system(to reach the system's edge which allows them to use 40k warp drive) and for extremely short range interstellar travel.

[Gunhead]

Well 40K could threaten all of trek without ST warp drive, but as per op no warp.

It's an interesting proposition. Assuming at least semi peaceful encounter with the powers of the alpha quadrant, well assume making and maintaining these relations are left to rogue traders, who are the most accustomed to outside influences.
A ST warp drive is acquired for study, this the easy part. Here's the hard part. Can the admech replicate and produce them? Can they be used with existing hulls? Are they powerful enough to propel imperial ships that are fucking enormous? Lastly, how badly would this type of tech fuck up the ranks of the admech, even considering this is "human" technology and not to mention the possibility of having to mess with the holiest of the holy STC starship designs? More radical wings could be ok with this, but I'm not optimistic that a hive world that manufactures has a all that many admech in it's midst with radical leanings.

I really have no clue about ST ships, not really my thing. Hopefully someone more into ST can shed some light on this.

-Gunhead

[IvanTih]

Wrote

I think that they would accept it because they won't have to use STL to reach the system's edge to use their warp drive.
I'm sure that with Imperial power generation they are powerful to do that,but the tricky part is to integrate warp cores into Imperial ships.
Problem is that Hive World isn't advanced like a Forge World,but again every Imperial worlds has AdMech and techpriest on them,but those aren't magos of some field of science so reverse engineering is a problem.
On the other hand,ST warp drive seems like Tau FTL,although it doesn't skim at the edge of some dimension(sub-space),it uses another dimension to achieve FTL in real space.

[Gunhead]

IvanTih, just a small request, when quoting someone, don't make a habit of replacing all the text with a single word. I personally find it to be bad form and you can simply quote part you wish to respond or comment to. Thanks.

-Gunhead

[IvanTih]

IvanTih, just a small request, when quoting someone, don't make a habit of replacing all the text with a single word. I personally find it to be bad form and you can simply quote part you wish to respond or comment to. Thanks.

-Gunhead

Ok,I do that because it's simple and shortens the post.

[Simon_Jester]

IvanTih, just a small request, when quoting someone, don't make a habit of replacing all the text with a single word. I personally find it to be bad form and you can simply quote part you wish to respond or comment to. Thanks.

A lot of people here do that when trying to indicate that they are responding to someone's general thesis; it's not at all unusual.

[Imperial528]

All the better. ST needs to be exposed to, say, the "other side" of morality.

It's not like the Star Trek universe doesn't already contain plenty of factions with very different morality from the Federation (Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, Borg etc.). A bunch of rabidly xenophobic nutters isn't going to be exactly an OCP to the Federation (although 40K people would probably be notable for their exceptional nucking futtery).

Yeah, but unlike traditional ST cultures, the IoM isn't a single mindset. Negotiating with the planetary governor or one of his reps would be a vastly different experience than negotiating with the local inquisition forces or any SM chapter which had the misfortune of being on the planet at the time, while all three of them can claim to represent the IoM. Unlike in ST where every time you find a Klingon he somehow has honor problems with you, Frengi always want to make profit off of you, Romulans act all shady and secretive, Vulcans always act logical, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but they aren't very prevalent, and they rarely show up past their initial story arc.

[Junghalli]

Yeah, but unlike traditional ST cultures, the IoM isn't a single mindset. Negotiating with the planetary governor or one of his reps would be a vastly different experience than negotiating with the local inquisition forces or any SM chapter which had the misfortune of being on the planet at the time, while all three of them can claim to represent the IoM. Unlike in ST where every time you find a Klingon he somehow has honor problems with you, Frengi always want to make profit off of you, Romulans act all shady and secretive, Vulcans always act logical, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but they aren't very prevalent, and they rarely show up past their initial story arc.

While granted ST is famous for being an offender of the monoculture trope, realistically I rather doubt the Federation has never, ever dealt with a fractious society. Even in the show and movies Klingons and Romulans are shown as having different factions with different ideas of appropriate foreign policy (e.g. House of Duras vs. ... whoever is normally in charge with the Klingons).