A reason for Trek inferiority...

[Ender]

"A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor's command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control."
[ISB, Ch. 8]

My PDD on ASVS on the ISB and Kaz' analyis show that the Imperial Fleet specifications are actually conservative. But we will use them anyway.

We have at least 4,800,000 Imperial starships going by a conservative 2000 for "thousands" of sector groups. Note I am not even counting the enormous amount of civilian vessels, which Starfleet also must produce and control and fits into your fleet numbers.

And Aleskya, where do you get 12,000 Federation starships from?

And don't you think there would be an abundance of GCS' in an invasion force? Most of the time, we rarely see them.

Refer to the Federation Fleet size thread. And we rarely see GCSs? In a single fleet shot in Sacrafice Angles we saw a clean dozen of them. They aren't are rare as first thought.

Interesting as to the Imperial Source Book. That would be 66 ships per ISD. 66 times 25,000 ISDs nets you less then 2 million ships.

Both the Enterprise and the Stennis were involved in Operation Enduring Freedom. Now looking at the total number of warships present, and the number of carriers, you could try to scale up and get the number of carriers. But you end up with about 22 carriers by that figure, almost twice as many as we have.

Do you get my point? We saw that many Galaxies, not because they are common in the fleet, but because the mission was that important.

Besides, isnt there a quote from Roddenbery out there that says how many GCS's there are?

[Doomriser]

Refer to the Federation Fleet size thread. And we rarely see GCSs? In a single fleet shot in Sacrafice Angles we saw a clean dozen of them. They aren't are rare as first thought.

No, of course they aren't. Starfleet has had, what, 10 years to build a dozen more?

"Interesting as to the Imperial Source Book. That would be 66 ships per ISD. 66 times 25,000 ISDs nets you less then 2 million ships."

Did you even read what it said? Let me state it again:

"A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor's command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control."
[ISB, Ch. 8]

That's 3,200,000 non-ISD combat ships alone, based on minimum sector group numbers and a conservative estimate of only 2000 sector groups. That's 4,800,000 capital ships, minimum, for the Imperial Navy.

I'll check the 'Starfleet Size' thread, but I'm pretty sure that the 12,000 ship quote is the high end of a quote from a Paramount figure. If you want to start quoting official figures, official writer Dr. Saxton's website gives us well over 100,000,000 Imperial warships.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/warships.html

[Doomriser]

You know, Aleskya, it's pathetic really. You're trying to make it look as if there's 1-2 starships per planet in the SW galaxy when there are always many.

Contrast this with ST where there's a constant shortage of starships. Starfleet can't even move civilians in time during an emergency. Half of TNG, the Enterprise-D is being used to ferry some diplomat or medical supplies, etc... Don't they have dedicated transports and secure starships? The Trek series from TOS-VOY indicate a massive, constant shortage of starships for many tasks in the Federation, whereas there is not in SW. Look at the skies over the SW capital and then compare it to the Federation capital. Even Tatooine has more starships on it than your average Federation colony.

[SirNitram]

????

Who claimed an ISD can go from start to finish in a month?

I know that if you counted the entire Empire, every shipyard and deepdock working at full power, an ISD was completed every seven minutes, but....

IIRC it was if you took the date from the first ISD to the last ISD built, counted the total number of ISDs built and compared it to the dates, it averaged to 7 ISDs per minute. That doesn't mean an ISD is built that fast, just that the Empire had a LOT of construction yards building ISDs.

That's what I meant. Obviously they can't build an ISD from start to finish in seven minutes.. This isn't Homeworld! I think it's stated they take around a year from laying the keel to smashing a bottle of brandy on the tower.

[Doomriser]

26 ships per world? LOL! Where are they all then? Earth herself couldn't even find two shits to rub together in defense until VOY "Endgame."

[Alyeska]

26 ships per world? LOL! Where are they all then? Earth herself couldn't even find two shits to rub together in defense until VOY "Endgame."

Considering that the Federation had borders to deal with, a great many of the ships were at the borders. Also take note that durring the Breen raid, the Breen forces were destroyed so quickly that reinforcements near Mars arrived after the Breen forces were destroyed. That actually fits with End Game (and remember in End Game the Excelsiors and Miranda's were mostly decomissioned)

As to the fleet calc numbers, I screwed up and left out the 2,400 thousand number. Yeah, 4.6 million SW ships seems about right.

[Alyeska]

I'll check the 'Starfleet Size' thread, but I'm pretty sure that the 12,000 ship quote is the high end of a quote from a Paramount figure. If you want to start quoting official figures, official writer Dr. Saxton's website gives us well over 100,000,000 Imperial warships.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/warships.html

The 12,000 figure came from Berman, and is supported by canon informaiton. Do you know the 3-1 rule for ships? It takes 3 ships to have one active at all times. 12,000 ships gives you 4,000 ships active at any one time.

[Alyeska]

You know, Aleskya, it's pathetic really. You're trying to make it look as if there's 1-2 starships per planet in the SW galaxy when there are always many.

Contrast this with ST where there's a constant shortage of starships. Starfleet can't even move civilians in time during an emergency. Half of TNG, the Enterprise-D is being used to ferry some diplomat or medical supplies, etc... Don't they have dedicated transports and secure starships? The Trek series from TOS-VOY indicate a massive, constant shortage of starships for many tasks in the Federation, whereas there is not in SW. Look at the skies over the SW capital and then compare it to the Federation capital. Even Tatooine has more starships on it than your average Federation colony.

Actually there are plenty of examples of entire Imperial sectors having but a handful of ISDs. And you kinda ignored some of the other information I stated on size comparisons. If mass comparisons give the Federation and the Empire an equal number of ships compared to planets, then that is an ADVANTAGE for the Empire due to its sheer size.

[Doomriser]

26 ships per world? LOL! Where are they all then? Earth herself couldn't even find two shits to rub together in defense until VOY "Endgame."

Considering that the Federation had borders to deal with, a great many of the ships were at the borders. Also take note that durring the Breen raid, the Breen forces were destroyed so quickly that reinforcements near Mars arrived after the Breen forces were destroyed. That actually fits with End Game (and remember in End Game the Excelsiors and Miranda's were mostly decomissioned)

Didn't the Federation have many hours or possibly even days of warning as the Breen fleet crawled straight through Federation space towards Earth? Quick reinforcements indeed.

You take one single instance from End Game to prove that older ships are mostly decommissioned? If Starfleet is finally wise enough to put a standing fleet around Earth, what makes you think they're going to stock with outmoded ships?

"The 12,000 figure came from Berman, and is supported by canon informaiton."

What canon information?

"Do you know the 3-1 rule for ships? It takes 3 ships to have one active at all times. 12,000 ships gives you 4,000 ships active at any one time."

So what are these other 8000 ships? Mothballs and kitbashes? 'Cause that's what we see being pulled into service in times of crisis. This thread is about industrial capability, not what Starfleet has lying around from centuries of starship production.

"Actually there are plenty of examples of entire Imperial sectors having but a handful of ISDs."

Such as?

And you kinda ignored some of the other information I stated on size comparisons. If mass comparisons give the Federation and the Empire an equal number of ships compared to planets, then that is an ADVANTAGE for the Empire due to its sheer size."

You're suggesting that the Federation can match the Empire per-capita. I disagree. Just how many of these ships-per-planet are warships anyway? What about all the NCC science ships?

[spongyblue]

The reall reason Trek is inferior is because they don't have seat belts. I say it to the day i die. No seat bealts and pajamas as uniforms make for crappy military.

[Enlightenment]

"Do you know the 3-1 rule for ships? It takes 3 ships to have one active at all times. 12,000 ships gives you 4,000 ships active at any one time."

So what are these other 8000 ships? Mothballs and kitbashes? 'Cause that's what we see being pulled into service in times of crisis. This thread is about industrial capability, not what Starfleet has lying around from centuries of starship production.

The 3 to 1 rule of thumb states that to maintain one ship on deployment, three ships are needed. At any given time, one ship will be on deployment, one will be in drydock for repair, and the third will be working up in preparation for deployment.

The 3:1 rule doesn't take transit times into consideration. For situations where ships must be maintained on station a long way from their homeports, the hull:on station ratio can be much worse.

[The Nomad]

Didn't the Federation have many hours or possibly even days of warning as the Breen fleet crawled straight through Federation space towards Earth? Quick reinforcements indeed.

There are nasty things like Cloaking devices, you know .

[TheDarkling]

Do the breen have cloaks?

[The Nomad]

The Fact Files mentions that the Breen indeed have cloaks. Since they almost exclusively rely on "screen" canon, I think this must have been quoted in some eps... even if I don't remember which ones. But anyway, that's the only plausible explanation. It was a surprise attack after all.

[TheDarkling]

Its logical and reasonable however that doesnt matter much without evidence, when I watched the Ep about the breen I thught "they must have cloaks" however that isnt enough to prove anything in these debates.

[Doomriser]

"At present, the Alliance has only one planet with the facilities to construct capital starships: Mon Calamari. The Cals are tireless workers, driving themselves and their orbital ship-construction facilities far beyond capacity, but, even at this killing speed, they are capable of producing perhaps one frigate or corvette a month, or one cruiser every six months." [Rebel Source Book, Chapter 4] - pre ROTJ

So one planet/shipyard can construct 2 Mon Cal cruisers per annum. That's equivalent to what, 20 GCS'? Can all of Starfleet produce that much per year?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but during the post-ROTJ novels, Mon Cal is attacked and there are several Mon Cal cruisers in production there?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

And behold, Moc Calamri is but a single planet that produces Mon Cal Cruisers-equivilent to 20 GCSs per year. Ands secondly, they most likley have actually stepped up on building speeds since the Imperials were defeated at Endor, you know, actually being able to expand their building buisness. Of course there are set backs (Mon Cal being attacked by WDs in DE comics), but they always manage to pull through somehow anyways.

Then we compare to the Feds who may (I stress the word may) be able to build as pre-ROTJ Mon Cals, 20 GCSs a year. And secondly, they aen't under constant attack by some outside force, so they can devote much more time to their projects.

That being said, even the backwater squid-heads of an ocean world, have the potential to out-build the Federation.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

EAS estimates that there is a minimum of 1800 ships in Starfleet (200 ships x 9 fleets), and at most only a few thousand ships in total.

[Setesh]

EAS estimates that there is a minimum of 1800 ships in Starfleet (200 ships x 9 fleets), and at most only a few thousand ships in total.

I think you've all forgoten how SF does ship counts, they count EVERYTHING. If you count Cap ships, cargo transports, then add in fighters, personal transports, and shuttles, 12000 is a little closer to reach.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Okay, I thought we were only counting capital ships.

Sorry.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Hmmm, so that would mean that less than 1/10th of its space craft are actually capships? 1800!? Wow, s that mean that Mon Calamari can build 1/90th of the total Fed fleet, if we were to assume all the ships were GCSs! To top that, they don't actually build that much in a year, thats what they've accumulated in over a century! Most of those ships are museum pieces, or old refits, also.

[Mr Bean]

Yeah they count Fighters kinda sad in a way

Lemme see if we did that for SW alone on only using ISDs

Hmm 25k, One Wing Per ship 12*6=72
25,000*72=180,000 Ships if we did the the ST way

[Mr Bean]

Follow-up Keep in mind that the Imperious Class began going into Production a Mear Eight Years before the Height of Imperal Power (during ROTJ and its fall)

So 8 Years 25,000 ISDs/8=3125 ships a Year for the Empire to have gotten that many


Puts things into prospective eh?

[Alyeska]

Question... How could the Federation have won the Dominion war with only 1,800 capital ships? The Dominion outnumbered the Klingons 20-1, and that was with the Klingons down to 1,500 ships after over a year and a half of fighting. The Dominion had 30,000 ships for crying out loud, and we saw in almost every battle the Federation had its ass handed to them.

[Mr Bean]

Question... How could the Federation have won the Dominion war with only 1,800 capital ships? The Dominion outnumbered the Klingons 20-1, and that was with the Klingons down to 1,500 ships after over a year and a half of fighting. The Dominion had 30,000 ships for crying out loud, and we saw in almost every battle the Federation had its ass handed to them.

Simple Tecnobabble, how else do they win?

Oh and Alyeska only a fool or a madman rushs all of his ships away from his planets without leave a force behind to defend them, By your Reasoning every single Axis Trooper should have been within six miles of the Front at all times

Third how do you get all 30k Ships through the Worm-Hole? How to you resupply them? How do you track them keep up with them? How many fights ended in draws and Retreats? And somthing that can't happen today but how many ships ran away to re-charge thier ships after being hit?
Today if you shoot a man he does not come back, You hit his tank and he either dies or does not but he can't run away for two mintues and have repair his tank back to 100% can he?

But can't they in ST?

Think about it.