A 40K industrial hive world in Trek

[Nathaniel]

While granted ST is famous for being an offender of the monoculture trope, realistically I rather doubt the Federation has never, ever dealt with a fractious society. Even in the show and movies Klingons and Romulans are shown as having different factions with different ideas of appropriate foreign policy (e.g. House of Duras vs. ... whoever is normally in charge with the Klingons).

I think Bajor would be a good example of what you're talking about.

[Sarevok]

40Ks "sub factions" are a way to sell more plastic toys.Trek seems more fleshed out and real in this regard. Take the Cardassians for example. The Obsidian Order (the Cardassian Intelligence Agency) and the Central Command (the main military) both have their own fleet. But they don't have silly two different plastic army men armies. Both sides employ Galor and Keldon warships as heavy combat units. The real difference lies in their thinking. The Order and Central Command constantly infighting for influence. Central Combat employs brute force tactics while the Order is all about subterfuge.

[wautd]

If there is inquisitorial presence in system, I'd give them the best starting point for taking charge along with current planetary governor.

Most certainly on Tracian Primaris. The subsector Ordos Xenos HQ is on that planet and is governed by High Inquisitor Rorken

[Black Admiral]

40Ks "sub factions" are a way to sell more plastic toys.Trek seems more fleshed out and real in this regard. Take the Cardassians for example. The Obsidian Order (the Cardassian Intelligence Agency) and the Central Command (the main military) both have their own fleet. But they don't have silly two different plastic army men armies.

Maybe you can help me follow the logic here - you're saying that forces which are organisationally, doctrinally and in every other facet of their nature aside from what they fight for (in the most abstract sense) distinct (the various arms of the Imperium's armed forces), shouldn't be equipped differently ... and you actually think that makes more sense than the canon situation?

[Coalition]

I'm worried about the various Chaos cults inside the Hives noticing something different.

[xt828]

I'm worried about the various Chaos cults inside the Hives noticing something different.

Like the source of their inspiration suddenly disappearing?

[Gunhead]

I'm worried about the various Chaos cults inside the Hives noticing something different.

Like the source of their inspiration suddenly disappearing?

Even if chaos gods are taken out of the picture, doesn't mean people instantly stop believing in them. Followers of Tzeentch would lose their magic which would be a blow but disease, slaughter and hedonism aren't going anywhere fast, so the effect wouldn't be immediate. Long term effects are hard to predict, but being a part of a cult is an integral part of 40K society.
By cult meaning mostly the accepted ones.

-Gunhead

[drake_azathoth]

I suspect being torn from their crapsack galaxy would eventually be viewed as an act of the Emperor, despite the likely rioting and starvation as things adjust.

I would actually imagine the impact on Psykers with the absence of the Warp would be a huge issue, both for loyal Impys and with Chaos cultists. If they lose all abilities it'll pretty much break the back of leadership among the Chaos cultists and probably be a huge coup for the church and loyalists despite being cut off from the rest of the Imperium.

If Psykers become the equivalent of their Trek-analogues with perhaps slightly altered powers, I imagine things would get more complicated, but the presence of the Astronavs and loyal Impy psykers would probably be enough to let the military keep terrorism under control. In fact with the absence of the Ruinous Powers on their psyche bolstering perversion and sadism, I would expect a certain amount of recidivism on the part of Cultists.

Relations with the rest of the Galaxy will depend on the timeline of the Trek universe to some extent. If they're in Federation territory, I'd expect things to stay calm right up until some numbnuts like the Ferengi try to trade with the desperate Imperial government. Psychic powers or no, this'll probably end up with the Impys getting a warp drive and then all bets are off on how things will go.

[Justice]

40Ks "sub factions" are a way to sell more plastic toys.Trek seems more fleshed out and real in this regard. Take the Cardassians for example. The Obsidian Order (the Cardassian Intelligence Agency) and the Central Command (the main military) both have their own fleet. But they don't have silly two different plastic army men armies. Both sides employ Galor and Keldon warships as heavy combat units. The real difference lies in their thinking. The Order and Central Command constantly infighting for influence. Central Combat employs brute force tactics while the Order is all about subterfuge.

What is the point of this argument?

1) I don't see how you can comment that this seems more "real" when you are talking about an intelligence agency owning a sizable fleet with ships-of-the-line. I could understand owning a small fleet of smaller transports and such to get them places, but there is no point for an intelligence agency to own warships. Give me a real-life example where an intelligence agency would own such assets? Hell, the US Navy doesn't give the US Marines or the US Army fleets to run around with; it would defeat the purpose of having a Naval Branch.

2) I don't see what's so "plastic men" silly about 40K armies. Yeah, they are out there, but they are specialized to serve different purposes. Space Marines are meant to operate under completely different operational procedures than the Imperial Guard, and this is reflected in their equipment. I'd like to point out that while the US Marines and US Army share equipment, there is still a great deal of difference there as well. What's the point of having two similarly equipped commands when all you really need is one? The Obsidian Order, logically speaking, should be closer to the Inquisition, where it requisitions naval resources as needed so that they can concentrate on intelligence rather than running a naval operation. That's far more realistic and sensible than giving your intelligence community its own fleet.

Oh, and mandatory "It's better to have silly plastic army men than no ground forces at all" joke. Really, I certainly think Trek has some more interesting facets than 40K, but that part of it is definitely not true. As wild as 40K is, they at least know how to organize their armed forces much more intelligently than Star Trek.

On-topic: Pskyers would likely die when their connection to the warp was severed, or commit suicide not long thereafter. From all indications, completely being cut-off from the warp is an incredibly traumatic event, and having no powers would likely drive what little sanity they have left right off.

I'd also like to point out that, as it seems, all humans have some connect with the warp in 40K. It's analogous to the concept of a soul: all humans show up in the warp, though their signatures may be minute. Those who have no connect to the warp (Pariahs) are reviled and immensely unsettling to all humans. I have to think cutting even regular 40K humans off from the warp might produce a horrifying reaction as it would cut them off from their "souls", so to speak.

As a compromise, I'd argue for a "low-power warp": One where warp travel is slowed, but not stopped, and psykers are less powerful but not completely unpowered. Regular humanity wouldn't be cut-off from their souls, and 40K actually has some power to maneuver rather than just being an island for the Starfleet to visit as they please.

[Simon_Jester]

40Ks "sub factions" are a way to sell more plastic toys.Trek seems more fleshed out and real in this regard. Take the Cardassians for example. The Obsidian Order (the Cardassian Intelligence Agency) and the Central Command (the main military) both have their own fleet. But they don't have silly two different plastic army men armies. Both sides employ Galor and Keldon warships as heavy combat units. The real difference lies in their thinking. The Order and Central Command constantly infighting for influence. Central Combat employs brute force tactics while the Order is all about subterfuge.

What is the point of this argument?

1) I don't see how you can comment that this seems more "real" when you are talking about an intelligence agency owning a sizable fleet with ships-of-the-line. I could understand owning a small fleet of smaller transports and such to get them places, but there is no point for an intelligence agency to own warships. Give me a real-life example where an intelligence agency would own such assets? Hell, the US Navy doesn't give the US Marines or the US Army fleets to run around with; it would defeat the purpose of having a Naval Branch.

Have you not heard of the Waffen SS?

In democracies, paramilitary intelligence/state enforcer agencies generally don't have heavy weapons or warships. In totalitarian societies, things can be very different, because in societies like that, they have far more power. And are often used to forcibly keep the military loyal to the regime, which requires weapons sufficient to pose a threat to rebels among the military.

[IvanTih]

Why there isn't a warp in ST,I thought that it was commonly assumed that dimension from that universe are present in another universe for the purpose of the debate.

[Gunhead]

Why there isn't a warp in ST,I thought that it was commonly assumed that dimension from that universe are present in another universe for the purpose of the debate.

In general this is the case. However in this case wautd decided that theres no warp, and I for one agreed that this makes this a far more interesting topic. Because otherwise this would be pretty much just 40k ass rapes Star Trek. We already know Star Trek cannot match 40K in a fight so making one more thread about it would be pointless.

-Gunhead

[IvanTih]

Why there isn't a warp in ST,I thought that it was commonly assumed that dimension from that universe are present in another universe for the purpose of the debate.

In general this is the case. However in this case wautd decided that theres no warp, and I for one agreed that this makes this a far more interesting topic. Because otherwise this would be pretty much just 40k ass rapes Star Trek. We already know Star Trek cannot match 40K in a fight so making one more thread about it would be pointless.

-Gunhead

If they get warp drive,coupled with IOM power generation,this would give impressive results as they could power warp 9.999 for a decent time.

[Justice]

40Ks "sub factions" are a way to sell more plastic toys.Trek seems more fleshed out and real in this regard. Take the Cardassians for example. The Obsidian Order (the Cardassian Intelligence Agency) and the Central Command (the main military) both have their own fleet. But they don't have silly two different plastic army men armies. Both sides employ Galor and Keldon warships as heavy combat units. The real difference lies in their thinking. The Order and Central Command constantly infighting for influence. Central Combat employs brute force tactics while the Order is all about subterfuge.

What is the point of this argument?

1) I don't see how you can comment that this seems more "real" when you are talking about an intelligence agency owning a sizable fleet with ships-of-the-line. I could understand owning a small fleet of smaller transports and such to get them places, but there is no point for an intelligence agency to own warships. Give me a real-life example where an intelligence agency would own such assets? Hell, the US Navy doesn't give the US Marines or the US Army fleets to run around with; it would defeat the purpose of having a Naval Branch.

Have you not heard of the Waffen SS?

In democracies, paramilitary intelligence/state enforcer agencies generally don't have heavy weapons or warships. In totalitarian societies, things can be very different, because in societies like that, they have far more power. And are often used to forcibly keep the military loyal to the regime, which requires weapons sufficient to pose a threat to rebels among the military.

Have you not heard that OKW (German Supreme Command) still had operational control of the Waffen-SS? They were not a separate entity executing their own operations unto themselves. While they certainly have some independence, they ultimately fell under the Wehrmacht's command. Unless I'm mistaken, and the Waffen-SS were doing all their planning on their own and it miraculously coincided with all the German offensives.

The Waffen-SS were never intended for any sort of intelligence work. While under the same organizational banner, they operated completely independently of each other to the point that they were practically in different organizations. If the Gestapo was running around with masses of tanks and/or warships, maybe the comparison could be made. But the Waffen-SS were not getting orders handed down from Gestapo agents. They were getting it from Wehrmact Commanders. I'd also point out that the Waffen-SS did not have it's own Naval or Air assets, either.

As counter-examples, the USSR (I'd argue most Communist states, actually), Saddam's Iraq, Imperial Japan, and Iran. I can name more. Even if you take the SS as an example (Which I think is wrong, since they did not operate completely independent of the regular military), there are far, far more examples against this as practice.

[montypython]

The Iranian Pasdaran is effectively an entire self-contained military force separate from the Regular military, with its own intelligence services to boot, so the Cardassian example does fit here.

[Justice]

The Iranian Pasdaran is effectively an entire self-contained military force separate from the Regular military, with its own intelligence services to boot, so the Cardassian example does fit here.

No, it doesn't. There's a difference between a military force with an intelligence apparatus and an intelligence force with a military apparatus. Many military forces have their own intelligence forces, regardless of government type. The GRU is a Russian example, and even then I don't remember them having a massive amount of resources to the point of having a fleet of capital ships or even regiments of tanks (I could be wrong, though). It's unnecessary since their focus isn't fighting anyways. Considering the Obsidian Order is not beholden to the military and is listed as the intelligence agency of the Cardassian Empire, it's not the same. Remember, the Revolutionary Guard is primarily a military organization.

Intelligence agencies generally don't operate their own military forces. For a proper comparison with Iran, we use SAVAK (Which is their national intelligence agency). They do not have their own massive military force, just as the vast majority of intelligence agencies. Thus, it's not like the Obsidian Order because, while independent of the military, they lack military assets.

The only possible comparison is the SS (so credit to Jester there), which is had a plethora of different things under it's banner. The problem with the SS comparison, though, was these parts worked completely independent of one-another: again, the Gestapo did not control where the SS was going. They were different services and had completely different functions. Not only that, but the Waffen-SS was still controlled by the German High Command, so it wasn't completely independent of the military like the Obsidian Order is. I'll accept that it's unique (Though I think a bit ill-conceived), but it lack a lot (if any) real-world examples.

[Justice]

I don't mean to double post, but I apparently am not allowed to edit my posts. Anyways, I mean to say VEVAK, not SAVAK.