Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

[Vympel]

Yeah, we know the armor can shrug off (particle beam) pistol shots (except to the helmet, at least the Alliance model) at extreme close range but is vulnerable to rifle fire (again, going off of the Alliance model) and crossbow bolts, so I really don't know what to make of it. You'd figure some sort of railgun or gauss rifle or whatever would be appropriate for the task.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Yeah, we know the armor can shrug off (particle beam) pistol shots (except to the helmet, at least the Alliance model) at extreme close range but is vulnerable to rifle fire (again, going off of the Alliance model) and crossbow bolts, so I really don't know what to make of it. You'd figure some sort of railgun or gauss rifle or whatever would be appropriate for the task.

Yes, that too, assuming that the zephyr particles do not somehow interfere or react with such devices. I suggested pneumatic rifles, because their operating principle is very simple just like bows, which we know can be used safely in the presence of zephyr particles.

I guess it's because the author (these were books first) preferred to write melee battles with axes and arrows.

You don't say!

[Commander 598]

Spoiler

During the assault on the Terraist HQ on Earth, we witness Imperial Panzergrenadiers simply wading into light rifle fire invincibly. Only after getting a shot (or knife) into unarmored sections are casualties inflicted.

I theorize that the armor may involve some sort of fluid capable of stopping high velocity impacts better than low velocity impacts, or why melee weapons and crossbow bolts seem to be more useful than anything else that isn't an FPS style oversized beam rifle. The same may not be true of Alliance armor since it appears much less bulky and advanced than it's Imperial counterpart and suspiciously like simple semi-armored enviro-suits seen on Kapche-lanke(sp?) by Reinhard.

Alternatively nobody actually has the capability or willingness to manufacture pneumatic/electrical weapons and since we only see crossbows once they may have been something specific to forces under Mittermeyer and Reunthal...who both have a noted history of infantry combat.

[Vympel]

In retrospect I think the Alliance armor is about equal - at least from the front. We see it deflecting rifle fire in Episode 43 (Ep 43 to 46 are now available in DVD fansub, yay!) - though it clearly has more vulnerable spots not protected by the plating (also from Ep 43!)

Forgot about this:-

Which fansub did you recommend to to Nephtys anyway? I recommended on too by pm.

[Central Anime] DVD or laserdisc fansub.

[Gunhead]

While axe and crossbow fighting is somewhat silly even if the zephyr particles are taken into account, they tend to use close combat only when fighting inside space ships or at close quarters in urban combat. When major land operations are launched, axe and crossbows are rarely seen. Large scale land warfare is rare in LoGH, in fact so rare they sometimes launch land campaigns even if it's somewhat unnecessary to do so, just so land troops have a chance to gain some glory too.
There seems to be a huge disparity between real ground forces in LoGH, these would be the people in heavy armor, and those security troops who are often at the receiving end when ships are boarded. It does make sense to maintain a highly trained, if small, force of land troops just in case, because the need is so infrequent. This is not to say this light infantry is not trained, or would be totally useless in a fight, they are totally adequate for occupation and crowd suppression, but are outmatched against, well, heavy infantry.

Ovlesser was a high admiral and he undoubtedly was the overall commander of all land forces in empire. Now comparing this to the number admirals and high admirals on the space fleet, gives a good indication how rarely there's a land campaign of significant size and importance. This can also be used as an indication how few dedicated ground troops they have compared to number of people serving in the fleet.

On the FPA side, Rosenritters took back Shampool in three days. Now we have no good comparison point to measure this against, but taking a major population center in just three days is quite a feat now matter how you look at it and it was heavily implied this was accomplished primarily due to Rosenritters being superior to their opposition.
Against opposition more on their level, the Rosenritters are tough and capable fighters but it's not as nearly as one sided as other combat we see them take part in the series.
It has to be taken into consideration we really see just the Rosenritters in a ground fight on the FPA's side and a wider range of troops on the empires side.

This is my take on it.

Oh, and Vympel, great minds think alike.

-Gunhead

[Ford Prefect]

Does anyone else think that the battleaxes and crossbows are somewhat silly?

No. It's just a stylistic thing that gives the infantry stuff it's own flavour.

[Marcus Aurelius]

No. It's just a stylistic thing that gives the infantry stuff it's own flavour.

That's what I'm saying, namely the silly flavor .

[KlavoHunter]

That's what I'm saying, namely the silly flavor .

Silly? More like BAD-ASS!

[Vympel]

Not surprising, since that fight is easily one of the most surprising and coolest moments in the series.

"Holy shit, Reuental is - wait .... what .... AWESOME!"

[Crossroads Inc.]

Quick question. I have been googeling "Legend of Galactic Heroes ships" and so far not found a good comprehensive list of all ships and curious if one exists? I am seeing lots of small websites with usually just the most famous ships the the Hyperion and the Brunhilde.

[Vympel]

Quick question. I have been googeling "Legend of Galactic Heroes ships" and so far not found a good comprehensive list of all ships and curious if one exists? I am seeing lots of small websites with usually just the most famous ships the the Hyperion and the Brunhilde.

http://yang-wenli.wikia.com/wiki/Legend ... eroes_Wiki

Best I could find. Just click on the FPA and Imperial warships links respectively.

[Stark]

That's because it's never been released in the West. The games have pretty detailed information on the ships, but its never been translated to my knowledge.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Quick question. I have been googeling "Legend of Galactic Heroes ships" and so far not found a good comprehensive list of all ships and curious if one exists? I am seeing lots of small websites with usually just the most famous ships the the Hyperion and the Brunhilde.

http://yang-wenli.wikia.com/wiki/Legend ... eroes_Wiki

Best I could find. Just click on the FPA and Imperial warships links respectively.

Well I am looking for information on Reuental's ship I think it was the "Tristan" it looked pretty badass.

[Vympel]

Unfortunately, the best you can do with the information we have is just count guns

I prefer the Beowulf purely because its got red instead of blue.

EDIT: I'll have some nice screencaps of the Tristan on this thread in due course.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Are you sure you don't mean the Barbarossa instead? Its the only imperial ship i can think of that is red.

Over all I do like the look of many of the Imperial ships They have both a sleek yet brutal look to them.

[Vympel]

Are you sure you don't mean the Barbarossa instead? Its the only imperial ship i can think of that is red.

Over all I do like the look of many of the Imperial ships They have both a sleek yet brutal look to them.

Dude. Look at what I'm doing in this thread. I know every Imperial ship by sight.

Beowulf, as you should see on the wiki link, is Tristan's (near) identical twin, except it has a red insignia, not blue. It's a play on Mittermeyer and Reuental being the "twin stars" of the Empire. Beowulf has got a bit of a more ... slab-sided appearance though. Tristan is a bit curvier.

[montypython]

This was the old source I used to use to find LOGH data way back when (around the time of ASVS), its only the archive of the original site but it still has some good info in it.

[Vympel]

The Lippstadt Rebellion, Part 2

Battle for the Shang-Tau Sector

High Admiral Merkatz engaged Admiral Reuenthal’s forces in the Schan'n-tau sector. Living up to his reputation, his fleet fought in good order.


Merkatz’ gunships attack

Seeing that he was outnumbered, Reuenthal decided to withdraw from the sector and cede it to the rebels, reasoning that it was not worth the lives to be lost in defending it. Further, Marquis Lohengramm could simply recapture it.

”That Reuenthal … he’s dumped the job back on me, has he?” – Marquis Lohengramm

Lohengramm, in consultation with Oberstein, decided the Schan'n-tau Sector could be ignored, and the capture of Geiersberg was made a priority. The rebels were unlikely to seek to retain Schan'n-tau in any event. Further, Vice Admiral Oberstien noted that Reuenthal’s withdrawal from Schan'n-tau would give them an opportunity.

Indeed, Merkatz’ success electrified the high nobles – Duke Braunschweig and Baron Flegel were especially generous with their praise. Merkatz was not one to be fooled – he knew that he had not so much won the sector as the enemy had given it up.

More seriously, Marquis Littenheim had decided to go seek out some of his own glory by leading a fleet to the frontier systems against “that redheaded brat”, High Admiral Kircheis. Kircheis, with Wahlen and Lutz under his command, had brought the frontier sectors of the Empire out from under Lippstadt control. Crossing the frontier sixty times, he had won all of his battles, and then entrusted the occupied sectors to civilian autonomy.

Merkatz protested that he was not notified – Duke Braunschweig responded that - “as leader” – he had authorized it. The divisions between Braunschweig and Littenheim – long time rivals at court whilst Kaiser Friedrich IV was alive, had surfaced again. To Braunschweig, Littenheim was “a nuisance”, so he was happy to let him go. Further, he noted they had a “noble duty” to restrain the strange ideas about autonomy that the common citizenry were getting.

Battle of Kifeuser

Marquis Littenheim led a fleet of 50,000 ships to the frontier, using Garmisch Fortress, located in the Kifeuser System, as his base for the campaign.



The combined Kircheis, Wahlen and Lutz fleets totaled 40,000 ships. Deciding the decisive battle would take place in the Kifeuser system, Kircheis ordered Wahlen and Lutz to engage Littenheim head on – whilst he would lead a detachment of only 800 ships from the main fleet.

Leading the fleet from his flagship, the Ostmark, Marquis Littenheim was annoyed at having to fight Lohengramm’s “red headed henchman” as opposed to Lohengramm himself.


The Ostmark

Informed that Kircheis’ fleet was taking a diamond formation, Littenheim, confident in his numerical advantage, declined to respond in kind, and had his fleet open fire at an extreme range –well outside the distance that their cannons could pierce the enemy’s shields.






The Skirnir, Lutz’ flagship


The Lutz fleet bore the brunt of Littenheim’s ineffectual opening salvo. Luring them in, Lutz waited until they were within 6 million kilometers, and returned fire to devastating effect.



At this point Kircheis led his small detachment around the back of his fleet towards Littenheim’s flank.



Littenheim meanwhile was puzzled as to why the enemy's left flank – only 20,000 ships – hadn’t been defeated yet by his superior force. Diplomatically, he was informed by his aide that “our organization and formation speeds are different from the norm”.


Littenheim fails to realize that he personally is being insulted, not the fleet

Kircheis’ detachment was then sighted to port.



Seeing through the imperfections of the enemy formation, Kircheis cut a swathe through it with Barbarossa and his escorting fast battleships, making a mockery of a fleet over 50 times the size of his force.


Barbarossa and escorts blast through


Fast battleships in front of the Ostmark

Taking advantage of the confusion, Wahlen and Lutz pressed their attack.


Ostmark’s escorts are destroyed

With his flagship’s escorts exploding around him, Littenheim made good his escape as Kircheis bore down on him.






Ostmark jettisons its exploding accoutrements just before speeding away

In his haste to flee, Littenheim even ordered that his ship to fire on his own supply ships, which had been waiting in the rear in case of a prolonged battle.


”If they’re allies, why are they blocking my esca… I mean course change! Whoever they are, fire!”


Supply ships come under attack

The Ostmark managed to return to Garmisch Fortress, whilst Kircheis moved into position for a siege. Lieutenant Konrad Rinnesal, one of the men on the transport ships, who had been wounded in the attack, offered his assistance to Kircheis in taking the fortress, by testifying as to what Littenheim had done.

It turned out that it was not necessary. Soon, a Commander Laudisch burst in the fortress command centre - where Littenheim was drowning his sorrows in alcohol – carrying the corpse of one of his dead men.


Tossing the corpse at Littenheim, Laudisch pulled out a bomb and detonated it. Littenheim was killed in the blast.



Seizing the opportunity, Kircheis sent in landing ships under his subordinates Bergengrun and Bülow, and captured the fortress.

Battle of Geiersberg Fortress

With Littenheim’s defeat, the Lippstadt League had lost their second in command and a third of their military strength. Marquis Lohengramm’s fleet approached Geiersberg, sending a mocking message informing the nobles of Littenheim’s “pitiful death, suitable to his cowardly nature” – and counseling surrender.


Reinhard on the big screen

As the nobles worked themselves up into righteous indignation at Reinhard’s insolence, Lohengramm’s forces arrived, and began parading just outside of Geiersberg’s gun range.



The nobles rushed to Admiral Merkatz, asking for permission to launch.

”We mustn’t! You think the enemy is playing kids’ games? There’s method in the madness. We must not launch.”- Merkatz

Unwilling to sit and wait whilst being taunted by commoners, Baron Flegel (with the entirely undeserved rank of Vice Admiral) and two of his associates (with the equally underserved rank of Rear Admiral) decided to go out themselves anyway.



Attacking Mittermeyer’s fleet, which had arrived first, Mittermeyer pulled back immediately. Upon return to the fortress, Merkatz insisted they be put up for court martial for flagrant disobedience.

With an ostentatious and sycophantic display, Baron Flegel made his case to his uncle that he only wished to fight the enemy, and derided Merkatz for having neither pride nor courage. The other nobles joined in – all indicated their willingness to kill themselves on the spot out of pride for their noble heritage.

Unsurprisingly, Duke Braunschweig was moved by his nephew’s appeals, and applauded their actions as “a crushing blow of righteousness to the conceited commoners!”

As the nobles cheered, long range missiles began to bombard the walls of Geiersberg- Mittermeyer had returned. Flegel asked that he be allowed to handle matters again – instead Duke Braunschweig determined that the entire fleet should launch, except for Merkatz, who would stay behind to defend the fortress itself.


The nobles launch from Geiersberg


Duke Braunschweig’s own flagship, the Berlin



Upon spotting Duke Braunschweig’s own flagship, the Berlin, Mittermeyer made sure to appear as defeated as possible as he executed another fake retreat.

Of the nobles’ fleet, only Vice Admiral Fahrenheit was suspicious at how compliant the enemy was being, and warned of following too closely in case of a trap.



Braunschweig got the hint, and ordered the fleet to slow its pursuit of Mittermeyer whilst reforming the battle lines – immediately, Mittermeyer turned around and attacked them, coaxing them to continue following.



Mittermeyer’s return fire damages Baron Flegel's flagship, the Wilhelmina, formerly the flagship of Fleet Admiral Mückenberger

Taken in, Baron Flegel pressed forward. Marquis Lohengramm had been watching and waiting. He gave the order for all ships to turn and attack, and not allow a single enemy ship to return to Geiersberg.




Mittermeyer attacks


One of Baron Flegel’s chums meets his doom


Beowulf and escorts blasts its way through

Whilst Fahrenheit ordered his fleet to retreat immediately, Flegel had a more optimistic appraisal of the situation, and had to be convinced to retreat by Captain Leopold Schumacher, who noted they were now surrounded by the enemy on all sides.


Flegel, with Schumacher behind him

Lohengramm’s admirals quickly moved to bottle up the enemy, deploying their forces along the Lippstadt forces’ planned escape route. Lohengramm had declared that whoever captured Duke Braunschweig would be made a commander – even if it was an enlisted man.


Vice Admiral Kempf


Mecklinger on the Kvasir


Vice Admiral Kesler on his flagship, the Forseti


Bittenfeld


Berlin, like the Ostmark, abandons its shield ships

Of the Lippstadt forces, only Admiral Fahrenheit kept a clear head and recognized what was happening, and ordered a hard turn to port to stay off the expected route back to the fortress – irrespective of the risk of losing their navigation beacons by deviating from the customary pilot routes.


Fahrenheit sees the situation

Seeing Fahrenheit’s movements, Flegel followed suit, probably saving himself in the process. His attempts to contact his uncle to advise him to do the same were unsuccessful- they couldn’t reach his ship in the disarray.

As Braunschweig made all speed straight for Geiersberg, more of Lohengramm’s forces – Vice Admiral Müller and Admiral Reuenthal - appeared to the left and right- eager to prevent Braunschweig’s escape. At this stage, 70% of the Lippstadt forces had been either captured or destroyed.


Reunthal’s flagship, the Tristan


Müller on his flagship, the Lübeck

Just as Braunchweig’s ship was struck at the port, disabling its rear gun turrets, Merkatz came to the rescue from Geiersberg.


Berlin is hit




Merkatz comes to the rescue


Reuenthal reacts

Too eager for victory, Lohengramm’s forces (Mittermeyer, Reuenthal and Kesler in particular) were thrown into confusion. Reducing speed and pulling back, they quickly moved to minimize their losses whilst reorganizing into a spherical formation and optimizing for short-range battle, adjusting their guns and launching fighters. The confusion was stopped in only a few moments, but Braunschweig had managed to escape. Merkatz immediately withdrew as well, before the rest of Lohengramm’s fleet caught up.


Braunschweig’s gratitude

Though Braunschweig had escaped, the battle had completely eroded the Lippstadt League’s military strength – the outcome of the war was now a foregone conclusion. But the siege of Geiersberg would continue.

[Zor]

I wonder if anyone can get any calcs for the damage inflicted here.

Zor

[Vympel]

I'd imagine you could come up with something assuming the hull was iron to be conservative.

One thing that struck me about Episode 22 is that its the first time that we get a look at Tristan - a very brief, low-quality look, but a look nonetheless. It's not until I think Episode 35 that we see her again, and not until Episode 42/43 onwards that we get better looks. Curious.

[Crossroads Inc.]

It is the Ostmark and the Berlin that intrigue me now...

The average Imperial battleship, even special ones like the Barbarossa and the Tristin have on average Six to Eight forward facing guns.
The Ostmark and the Berlin have Twenty forward facing guns. Those ships are BEASTS and the extended tri-marine hulls would, one would think, add an immense amount of protection to the ships as a whole.
It is quite a shame that both ships seemed to have been captained by either idiots or cowards in the case of Littenheim and Braunschweig. I can only imagine how terror those ships would cause in the hands of someone like Reuental or even Lohengramm

[Vympel]

Yeah, there appears to be subtle variations in the standard Imperial battleship design. Notice that Baron Flegel's ship (I believe that was his ship getting damaged in "Mittermeyer's return fire") also has the 20 gun arrangement, but lacks those two ... wing thingies. That don't ever appear to be clearly connected to the ship.

(even though Berlin jettisons these and are spares, in the next battle it has them again. Must be spares)

If Barbarossa is anything like Brunhild though, I'd expect her to have a lot more guns than it appears - the ones we can see are just the main ones. Brunhild is practically covered in guns, when we see her fight. She's a very advanced warship. I'll quote the part from the last episode of the Spiral Labyrinth Gaiden when I get the chance, its when Reinhard is given the Brunhild and the engineer guy gives him a brief rundown of why she's awesome.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I'd be interested in that information from Gaiden, as I had a different impression of that ship. All of the large ships are covered in guns, though it's the forward guns that appear to be the important ones. I had thought that the Brunhild had only secondary guns and was designed with a focus on survivability, speed, and communications. It fires its guns point-blank at the Patroklos in the first movie and causes minimal damage, as an example.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I'd be interested in that information from Gaiden, as I had a different impression of that ship. All of the large ships are covered in guns, though it's the forward guns that appear to be the important ones. I had thought that the Brunhild had only secondary guns and was designed with a focus on survivability, speed, and communications. It fires its guns point-blank at the Patroklos in the first movie and causes minimal damage, as an example.

I fully agree, everything I have seen and read about the Brunhild indicates it is a true COMMAND ship. Designed to lead a fleet, to communicate and above all survive/ Fast, highly advanced, and heavily armored.

The gun placement on both the Brunhild and the Barbarossa seem geared much more for firing in an direction to counter an attack from any direction rather then simply full frontal attacks as most Imperial warships are geared for.

To Vympel,

I did notice the 20 gun 'non tri-marine' style battleship. So it would seem those extra "wings" can be attached to any ship of that class type, presumably, for additional protection. Again it is a shame the few times we see them they are in the hands of incompetents.
Of course even if such ships were in the hands of a better captain, I am not sure it would make a difference. The whole POINT of Legend of the Galactic Heroes is that it is no one ship that makes a difference, it is the people. Lohengramm could lead his forces to victory even on a bucket of bolts.

[Vympel]

I'd be interested in that information from Gaiden, as I had a different impression of that ship. All of the large ships are covered in guns, though it's the forward guns that appear to be the important ones. I had thought that the Brunhild had only secondary guns and was designed with a focus on survivability, speed, and communications. It fires its guns point-blank at the Patroklos in the first movie and causes minimal damage, as an example.

Yeah, but the fleets caused minimal damage to each other in general, I believe because they were in atmosphere.

This is the quote from Episode 28 of Season 2 of the Gaiden:- (last episode of LOGH ever, actually)

It's an experimental manufacture for the next generation warship featuring an armor system based on new theories. Its slightly smaller than conventional flagships, but its firepower is superior. Because it's an experimental ship its laden with equipment that ignores mass production costs.

This backed up pretty well in Episode 108. Brunhild puts up a shitload of gunfire (from seemingly all over its hull) and blasts entire Alliance cruisers apart with single beams in a very impressive manner. I'd post screencaps, but its laserdisc and I don't want to sully the thread with inferior quality!

You also see Brunhild's armor do its job as well - beams just bounce off it.