Autistic Appointee to US Govt Agency Does not support a Cure

[Saxtonite]

First heard of this today as it got on the mainstream media (CNN). I missed it due to doing other things, but I looked up on the internet for more articles like this. There is more where this came from.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... neeman-qa/

[SirNitram]

This doesn't even merit a surprise from me. Most of us on the Spectrum don't want cures. Why would we? It would drastically alter who we are. SOme people try to make some false equivalence between this and, say, deafs who refuse coclear implants or so further. But that's honestly silly; we work our whole lives to cope, so we can fit in and have happy lives.

This is compounded by the fact the Cure Brigade has almost to a man adopted the idea we aren't full humans, and thus don't get our rights, and that vaccines caused it. And of course, support ridiculous treatments. One I recall was a pressure tent filled with O2, which is so bad the FDA outright says don't do it on the warnings on the pressure tent.

He speaks about alot of very important things, and he is quite accurate of the 'neurodiversity' group: We just want self-determinism. If, someday, there is a cure, we'd like the right to choose for ourselves. Not our so-called betters deciding for us.

[Darth Fanboy]

If, someday, there is a cure, we'd like the right to choose for ourselves. Not our so-called betters deciding for us.

Just curious, if a cure were developed, how would you feel about it being offered to parents of autistic kids age 0-17?

[Stark]

Speak for yourself. I'd downgrade from 'genius' to 'smart guy' in a heartbeat for better quality of life. 'Self determination'? I wasn't aware anyone forced autistic people to do anything (besides manage their condition if they want to be a part of society). Hey, if they can geningeer it away, I might even have natural children without the likelihood of putting them through decades of shit.

[Lonestar]

Speak for yourself. I'd downgrade from 'genius' to 'smart guy' in a heartbeat for better quality of life. 'Self determination'? I wasn't aware anyone forced autistic people to do anything (besides manage their condition if they want to be a part of society). Hey, if they can geningeer it away, I might even have natural children without the likelihood of putting them through decades of shit.

I'm sure Shep will be along shortly to compare Autistics who don't want a cure with the same retards who are deaf and prefer "deaf culture" over letting their children with normal hearing engage with real society. Of course it's very close to being the same. Both are groups that struggle to work with the broader society.


What I love is that Nitram is too scared to answer the phone when it rings, but if a cure is made then it would "drastically alter who we are"? Hello? Has it occured to you that "who you are" isn't healthy?

"No I don't need a cure, I'm fine the way I am! Why no, I haven't been able to hold any jobs down and rely upon others to support me."

[JointStrikeFighter]

For me the best part is people like Nitram having the audacity to speak for the entire 'autistic community' through use of the word 'we.' Who nominated Nitram the dedicated speaker for Austism were there elections? I didnt get to vote

Obviously Autists are a unified hive-mind horde. Just like Asians :V

[Alyrium Denryle]

Someone who is deaf and has an implant put in will not also drastically change who and what they are, barring the outside context problem for someone who has never heard sound before. Any cure that gets created for someone who is already alive is not comparable.

Any cure would not change just the autism. Every aspect of his personality would change. He would cease to be Nitram. Such changes could not even be done with any sort of continuity of consciousness. He would die, and a doppleganger would take his place.

I can get behind methods to make sure that a person on the far end of the autism spectrum is not born, but that is not a cure. That is prevention. There is also a tradeoff one makes. Many of the most brilliant people the world has seen were probably on the Spectrum. Newton, Tesla. Many others. Shouldn't we, given this, put more of our effort into making sure that people who exist on the autism spectrum can lead better lives, and make the best of the benefits that the condition gives them while minimizing the costs? Nitram would not have many of the social difficulties he has if there was more social support and social services to assist him. Assisted communication, sensitivity training at work so people know that those who are autistic might have some idiosyncratic mannerisms, crackdowns on school bullying etc. All of those would make his place (and mine for that matter) on the autism spectrum nearly irrelevant, rather than unhealthy. A difference that can be accommodated for and worked with, rather than a disability.

[Stark]

WTF? 'Could not even be done with any continuity of consciousness'? Are you on fucking crack? Not only are many of these people effectively medicated already, but for people at the high end much of the time they're effectively normal; its their response under stress, to stress, and the sources of stress that are the disability.

For instance, if I had to take a 20IQ hit to never have to deal with my tunnel-vision anger issues, I would consider it 20IQ points well spent.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Sorry but in the real world you have to make your own steps towards fitting the status quo and not expect that everything is changed around to make the perfect fit Just For You (TM)

[Lonestar]

Someone who is deaf and has an implant put in will not also drastically change who and what they are, barring the outside context problem for someone who has never heard sound before. Any cure that gets created for someone who is already alive is not comparable.

Any cure would not change just the autism. Every aspect of his personality would change. He would cease to be Nitram. Such changes could not even be done with any sort of continuity of consciousness. He would die, and a doppleganger would take his place.

I can get behind methods to make sure that a person on the far end of the autism spectrum is not born, but that is not a cure. That is prevention. There is also a tradeoff one makes. Many of the most brilliant people the world has seen were probably on the Spectrum. Newton, Tesla. Many others. Shouldn't we, given this, put more of our effort into making sure that people who exist on the autism spectrum can lead better lives, and make the best of the benefits that the condition gives them while minimizing the costs? Nitram would not have many of the social difficulties he has if there was more social support and social services to assist him. Assisted communication, sensitivity training at work so people know that those who are autistic might have some idiosyncratic mannerisms, crackdowns on school bullying etc. All of those would make his place (and mine for that matter) on the autism spectrum nearly irrelevant, rather than unhealthy. A difference that can be accommodated for and worked with, rather than a disability.

Nitram ain't Newton or Tesla. I'd go so far as to say that MOST autistics aren't people like Newton or Tesla.

Saying "we should totally accommodate those who can't answer fucking phones or hold down fucking jobs when there's a chance for a cure" doesn't really resonate a whole lot with me.

[Shroom Man 777]

For me the best part is that Nitram just wanted the autism people to have a choice in choosing to cure themselves or not, but apparently to JointStrakFighter's (JointStrikeStrakker/EuroStrak Tranche 2?) brain that makes him the Gravemind of the autie floodswarm or some shit and makes him a target for JSF's combat payload of AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Smarm Smugoff Missiles (JASSMs).

Apparently, "most of the people I know" or whatever = "hive mind"

Objections on being looked down and treated like subhumans = shits

People can choose to have or not to have treatment - and live with their choices. Nitram just said people should be given a choice, and that for him he'd choose not to. He's not imposing shit on anyone or acting like a flippant shit. I don't see where the goddamn contention is over his lifestyle choices, or the choices of others, and how they deal with it.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Yeah, speaking as someone who gets mild panic attacks at the thought of necessary socialization, I would happily give up some of my innate tendency towards reading and creativity in exchange for the ability to function socially. I've made some really shitty decisions that fucked my financial and living situation over for years mostly due to a petrifying fear of having to confront people and talk to them. Yeah, I like being creative and all... but I like surviving and functioning more.

[Singular Intellect]

Sorry but in the real world you have to make your own steps towards fitting the status quo and not expect that everything is changed around to make the perfect fit Just For You (TM)

I've begun noticing this trend with those who have particular conditions; they expect the world to change for them rather than adapt to the world. It's an arrogant, lazy and self centered point of view. It's the equivalant of me with bad eyesight insisting the world needs to make everything seeable for my vision impairment rather than just myself admitting I got dealt a short hand and therefore have to deal with it, even if that means I have to work harder than someone else to compensate.

Yeah, I like being creative and all... but I like surviving and functioning more.

I seriously hate this kind of fucking argument; as if not being autistic means you can't be 'creative'.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Nitram has repeatedly claimed in past incidents that a cure and attempts to develop a cure are tantamount to murder and genocide. Working on methods to allow people who would otherwise be crippled to lead normal lives is no such thing.

EDIT: Post was directed in reply to Shroomaloom

[Shroom Man 777]

@ JSF:

Too bad Nitram didn't say anything like that here, Strak II.

Personally, as a nuers (I am registereds!), I don't object to the development of further treatment modalities for various physiological and mentalogical conditions or whatever. But there is nothing wrong with the affected people consenting to, or opting out of, these treatments. It's an innate right, mangs. What are you going to do? Cram a siphon down their throats and chug anti-autism stem cells into their guts?

[SirNitram]

Speak for yourself. I'd downgrade from 'genius' to 'smart guy' in a heartbeat for better quality of life. 'Self determination'? I wasn't aware anyone forced autistic people to do anything (besides manage their condition if they want to be a part of society). Hey, if they can geningeer it away, I might even have natural children without the likelihood of putting them through decades of shit.

Then you're not paying attention. In Canada, it took a Supreme Court ruling to determine that the Charter Of Rights did not require you have to act like a 'normal' person to get your rights. This is laid out quick clearly in the Intervener's Factum, presented by Michelle Dawson. (Auton v. British Columbia. Not the main ruling, but part of the case, and an important part.) Institutionalization is still quite possible for Autistics. Denial of basic services even continues in some places, like school. So, you may not be aware, but it sure as fuck happens.

As for the question of 0-17..

1) Even if you can fully understand an Autistics mind, a child's mind is still a bizarre and ever-changing place. It's never good, in my mind, to start mucking about in there. Genengineering is another thing.

2) For any age group: You must realize that there is no sign autism is like cancer, in a single part. How much of your memories, personality, responses, your, for want of a better word, self, will become unrecignizable, even alien, to yourself after this magic pill?

Yet of course we get the stampede to equate a complete rewriting of your head to being medicated. Or that Autistics can't answer phones(Hmmm.. How could I be on the spectrum and still hold down a Telephonic Interviewer job until the liver got so bad it made it impractical..), and other such surface-level trash. Not unexpected.

Again, all we want is the right to choose for ourselves.

[Shroom Man 777]

Horseshit.

He wants to continue to be a ward of the state(and/or leeching off others) under the pretex of continuing "being himself." He can't hold down a job, he can't even answer the fucking phone. Maybe he isn't as big a drain on society because he's married to someone who is gainfully employed, but there are others who aren't. Them taking guv'ment money and resources when they do not nessecarily need to DOES affect me.

Well, that kind of makes it different. Maybe the state's program for caring these folks could also include various treatment modalities (including these anti-mutant cures that Magneto so dislikes) or something, to make them more self-sufficient and functional to the point where they're rehabilitated and have societal functionality. Okay. There is nothing wrong with that.

I just also don't see what's so inherently wrong about choosing to opt out of a treatment. Though ideally people with disabilities should have treatment, but if they don't want to, what can we do? Force them to get treatment? Force feed them stem cells through nasogastric tubes?

[Stark]

I wasn't referring to legal rights, I was referring to capacity to act in society. If you need to manage your condition to maintain relationships, have a job, or whatever, then maybe it's a good idea to do so and not expect the rest of the world to tolerate the symptoms of your disability. I know some people who have been institutionalised, and it happened because they were fucking nuts and were a danger to themselves. Should they have been allowed to run their own lives, because they're autistic and they 'choose' it, with their eight-year-old mentality?

Seriously, where is this 'we' and 'ourselves' business? Are you in charge of some kind of club? Can I choose for myself to not be associated with you or your beliefs?

[Singular Intellect]

I just also don't see what's so inherently wrong about choosing to opt out of a treatment. Though ideally people with disabilities should have treatment, but if they don't want to, what can we do? Force them to get treatment? Force feed them stem cells through nasogastric tubes?

So long as they're able to contribute to society like everyone else is expected to and not drain our collective resources significantly more than anyone else, they can live with whatever disabilities they desire.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Yeah, I like being creative and all... but I like surviving and functioning more.

I seriously hate this kind of fucking argument; as if not being autistic means you can't be 'creative'.

Man, that would hurt if I actually made that argument. Of course in the part of my post you snipped out I went out of my way to state that being cured of it would, at worst, only take out 'some' of my creativity. I have to remember never to run with the assumption that people will actually take my individual statements in the context of the rest of my post.

[Singular Intellect]

I seriously hate this kind of fucking argument; as if not being autistic means you can't be 'creative'.

Man, that would hurt if I actually made that argument. Of course in the part of my post you snipped out I went out of my way to state that being cured of it would, at worst, only take out 'some' of my creativity. I have to remember never to run with the assumption that people will actually take my individual statements in the context of the rest of my post.

Right, my bad; do elaborate then how being autistic makes anyone more creative than a non autistic person. Otherwise drop the whole 'losing creativity' argument.

[SirNitram]

I wasn't referring to legal rights, I was referring to capacity to act in society. If you need to manage your condition to maintain relationships, have a job, or whatever, then maybe it's a good idea to do so and not expect the rest of the world to tolerate the symptoms of your disability. I know some people who have been institutionalised, and it happened because they were fucking nuts and were a danger to themselves. Should they have been allowed to run their own lives, because they're autistic and they 'choose' it, with their eight-year-old mentality?

Seriously, where is this 'we' and 'ourselves' business? Are you in charge of some kind of club? Can I choose for myself to not be associated with you or your beliefs?

Of course. That's that whole 'self determinism' schtick. Go and disagree and do so vehemously. Like the famous Voltaire quote.

I'm not talking about those who are a danger to themselves. But thanks for the man of straw, Stark. It's about as sturdy as Lonestar's ridiculous 'you love being a useless welt so much you don't actually have a job waiting for you.'(Yes, still with the BRFSS.)

[Ryan Thunder]

Right, my bad; do elaborate then how being autistic makes anyone more creative than a non autistic person. Otherwise drop the whole 'losing creativity' argument.

I think what he means is that he feels that his autism makes him more creative. I don't think he intended to compare himself to a non-autistic person in the sense that you're taking it.

[Shroom Man 777]

One of the thing that makes this shitty is that there are degrees of severity. I mean, unless severely debilitated, a person can't be declared incompetent or shit and have treatment forced on him. People can refuse treatment if they choose to, if they're still competent. But with the case of autism, which is a neurologic condition, where does the line get drawn?

Fucking consent issues.

[Stark]

Of course. That's that whole 'self determinism' schtick. Go and disagree and do so vehemously. Like the famous Voltaire quote.

I'm not talking about those who are a danger to themselves. But thanks for the man of straw, Stark. It's about as sturdy as Lonestar's ridiculous 'you love being a useless welt so much you don't actually have a job waiting for you.'(Yes, still with the BRFSS.)

Excuse me? You mentioned that autistic people are sometimes committed, apparently to support your contention that autistic people have no consent in their treatment or something. I'm merely pointing out that all kinds of people can be committed, that there are clear definitions involved, and that this isn't some kind of discrimination or disenfrancishment of autistic people. Sick people getting treatment isn't a rights violation in my book, and 'most of us don't want a cure' (citation needed) is a far cry from 'let people choose'. Of course they're going to elt people choose, you nutbar, they let people choose vacinations for diseases that will fucking kill them.

Many of the autistic people I have met are in no way competent to manage their treatment. Citation needed!