Autistic Appointee to US Govt Agency Does not support a Cure

[Singular Intellect]

Right, my bad; do elaborate then how being autistic makes anyone more creative than a non autistic person. Otherwise drop the whole 'losing creativity' argument.

I think what he means is that he feels that his autism makes him more creative. I don't think he intended to compare himself to a non-autistic person in the sense that you're taking it.

Right, and how was this conclusion reached? At what point did he compare his autistic creativity with his non autistic creativity?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Nitram ain't Newton or Tesla. I'd go so far as to say that MOST autistics aren't people like Newton or Tesla.

No. On the other hand the sheer productivity of such people is not to be scoffed at. Most people with autism you wont even know are there. They may just be a little eccentric.

Saying "we should totally accommodate those who can't answer fucking phones or hold down fucking jobs when there's a chance for a cure" doesn't really resonate a whole lot with me.

Or you can make it so that people who have the condition can answer phones and hold down jobs. It is not a dichotomous choice, and you completely ignored the bit about how a "cure" would basically kill the person being "cured"

[Shroom Man 777]

I seriously hate this kind of fucking argument; as if not being autistic means you can't be 'creative'.

Man, that would hurt if I actually made that argument. Of course in the part of my post you snipped out I went out of my way to state that being cured of it would, at worst, only take out 'some' of my creativity. I have to remember never to run with the assumption that people will actually take my individual statements in the context of the rest of my post.

Right, my bad; do elaborate then how being autistic makes anyone more creative than a non autistic person. Otherwise drop the whole 'losing creativity' argument.

Right, and how was this conclusion reached? At what point did he compare his autistic creativity with his non autistic creativity?

Your intellect really is singular. He didn't say it would, he just said that he would gladly trade his creativity for functionality - though he didn't say that the cure would actually do things to creativity. He just said that he wanted to get a cure, even if (IF) it had side-effects in changing his current persona. IF. It was a fucking expression, a figure of speech, a goddamn metaphor, he wasn't quantifying shit or graphs or whatever the fuck have you. Stop being an argumentative misconstruing nitpricking prick, go quantify your vaporizing asteroids somewhere else.

[JointStrikeFighter]

and you completely ignored the bit about how a "cure" would basically kill the person being "cured"

Prove this or GTFO.

or

Aly presents philosphy as fact.

[Stark]

If a candidate does a personality test that reveals they are insular, antisocial, have a low stress threshold and obvious stress reactions, trouble multi-tasking, trouble forming genuine relationships, difficulty understanding the motives behind people's actions or the games people play with tactics and motives, this will seriously degrade the odds of them being hired.

Saying 'don't discriminate because they're autistic' is meaningless in this context.

[SirNitram]

Well, we now rocket straight into the make-shit-up phase of the ranting. 'Once twice', when of course Google proves otherwise. Anxiety is inability, never able to be overcome by self-discipline, therapy, and coping mechanisms. Two paychecks! He thinks he's a-okay! He should get any job, regardless of how well suited!

Really, why bother replying? You're just lying at this point, making up whatever reassures you you're in the right in your bizarre rantings. Throw in your ignorance to BRFSS(If you think answering the phone is awkward: Cold call people, accept their abuse, and oh yea, ask 60 year olds if they've ever done anal.).

[Knife]

does someone want to explain this 'I don't want to destroy me' thing? People change all the time, you are not the same person at 30 you were at 20, and so forth. While I agree that people should get to choose, when do we say that the inability to handle reality, the inability to change to adapt to situations, the inability to function at a basic level, is a disorder and needs to be treated.

Opps, wanted to add; wasn't there a study about how really smart people lead shitty lives socially? I vaguely remember something about it, so correct me if I'm wrong. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that I'd rather let the new Newton or new Tesla lead a better life than have him have a shitty one and come up with apple powered death rays.

[SirNitram]

does someone want to explain this 'I don't want to destroy me' thing? People change all the time, you are not the same person at 30 you were at 20, and so forth. While I agree that people should get to choose, when do we say that the inability to handle reality, the inability to change to adapt to situations, the inability to function at a basic level, is a disorder and needs to be treated.

Opps, wanted to add; wasn't there a study about how really smart people lead shitty lives socially? I vaguely remember something about it, so correct me if I'm wrong. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that I'd rather let the new Newton or new Tesla lead a better life than have him have a shitty one and come up with apple powered death rays.

But I love apple-powered death rays!

More seriously: That statement is a vast overstatement. Kind of like 'anxiety means you can't do it'. I did say it once, but since then a skilled colonoscopy team found my head. What is more concerning to me is: Your brain is set up one way. This magic pill remakes it into normal. At best, your earlier memories, formed in such a different mindset, are going to seem alien.

[Stark]

That happens anyway. Do anything dumb in highschool? You'll be reminiscing and thinking 'whoa, was I really that dumb' for decades.

[Knife]

But I love apple-powered death rays!

More seriously: That statement is a vast overstatement. Kind of like 'anxiety means you can't do it'. I did say it once, but since then a skilled colonoscopy team found my head. What is more concerning to me is: Your brain is set up one way. This magic pill remakes it into normal. At best, your earlier memories, formed in such a different mindset, are going to seem alien.

Stark beat me to it, but yes you already do that. You are not the same person you were when you were 5, 10, 15, etc... You just are not. Your brain functions differently, you go through different moral and psychosocial models. You think differently and comprehend differently.

And yes, I'll be disappointed if someone doesn't sig my apple powered death ray bit.

[SirNitram]

But I love apple-powered death rays!

More seriously: That statement is a vast overstatement. Kind of like 'anxiety means you can't do it'. I did say it once, but since then a skilled colonoscopy team found my head. What is more concerning to me is: Your brain is set up one way. This magic pill remakes it into normal. At best, your earlier memories, formed in such a different mindset, are going to seem alien.

Stark beat me to it, but yes you already do that. You are not the same person you were when you were 5, 10, 15, etc... You just are not. Your brain functions differently, you go through different moral and psychosocial models. You think differently and comprehend differently.

And yes, I'll be disappointed if someone doesn't sig my apple powered death ray bit.

In a realm of the purely theoretical, if there was no change to who I am and how I think, I might. But now we're arguing about magic wands, aren't we? There's no such thing as a medical treatment with no side effects(See my boobs.).

[Stark]

Its actually arguable that the desire for things to stay the same and comfortable is actually a very autistic attitude; the fear of change and desire to maintain a status quo was certainly the source of much of my anxiety when I was a kid. It was when I learned to look beyond that that I started to have a normal life, and thus immediately became a different person - a better person.

[Alyrium Denryle]

and you completely ignored the bit about how a "cure" would basically kill the person being "cured"

Prove this or GTFO.

or

Aly presents philosphy as fact.

No. I am presenting basic neuroscience as fact. Autism is a complicated neurological condition, not an on-off switch. You change one character, you change others, because your entire brain is interconnected. It is not like depression, where there is a problem with serotonin regulation (though this is also true for autism, it is a symptom IIRC, not a cause). When you start fucking around with an already developed brain... somehow, nevermind how you will actually do it, you change things other than the condition you are "treating". There is no real way to predict what these things will be, given that our knowledge of the brains inner workings are as limited as it is.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1155568-overview

Those changes, in multiple parts of the brain--the brain being the sum total of who and what you are as a human being--will lead to a different person. It is like lobotomizing someone and claiming they are the same, only without the horribleness of severing the frontal lobe from everything else.

does someone want to explain this 'I don't want to destroy me' thing? People change all the time, you are not the same person at 30 you were at 20, and so forth. While I agree that people should get to choose, when do we say that the inability to handle reality, the inability to change to adapt to situations, the inability to function at a basic level, is a disorder and needs to be treated.

You change, not because the fundamental architecture of your brain changes past a certain age, but because you lay down additional memories and genes coding for certain neurotransmitters get up or down regulated and thus change the way you react to stimuli (mood regulation etc).

Autism is an abnormality in everything from the limbic system to speech and face recognition. Way the hell a different matter to start messing with that. One can get better through cognitive therapy, to recognize certain behaviors are irrational etc, but the issue is still there, and you cant get rid of everything. I have worked long and hard to be as socially functional as I am. I meditate sometimes to calm my nerves etc. It never gets me over issues like social anxiety, but it allows me to function. You add on, you reroute, you re-regulate, you learn how to recognize faces and names and you deal with the symptoms, but the underlying root cause never goes away.

Opps, wanted to add; wasn't there a study about how really smart people lead shitty lives socially? I vaguely remember something about it, so correct me if I'm wrong. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that I'd rather let the new Newton or new Tesla lead a better life than have him have a shitty one and come up with apple powered death rays.

I think they should have the choice. My intellect for example is a large part of how I define myself, and what makes my life worth living. Why would I change this when I am more or less content with the tradeoff?

[Saxtonite]

What is more concerning to me is: Your brain is set up one way. This magic pill remakes it into normal. At best, your earlier memories, formed in such a different mindset, are going to seem alien.

Its actually arguable that the desire for things to stay the same and comfortable is actually a very autistic attitude

Stark beat me to it, but yes you already do that. You are not the same person you were when you were 5, 10, 15, etc... You just are not. Your brain functions differently, you go through different moral and psychosocial models. You think differently and comprehend differently.

And yes, I'll be disappointed if someone doesn't sig my apple powered death ray bit.

The Speed of Dark covered that sort of concept. I think people in this thread, if they haven't read it would benefit reading this

[Knife]

In a realm of the purely theoretical, if there was no change to who I am and how I think, I might. But now we're arguing about magic wands, aren't we? There's no such thing as a medical treatment with no side effects(See my boobs.).

Sort of true, side effects and adverse effects do happen. Then again, in life shit happens all the time. To be able to choose, you would have to be told and understand not only what they would do (cure) but also how it would affect you, or might affect you. Listen to any of those silly bonner pill commercials for the fast and weird side effect list at the end. That said, people are silly about what side effects they will tolerate. Give them a med to do X, and the side effect is dizziness, or sedation and they're usually ok with it. Give them a med that fixes serious problem Y but causes gas... screw that man, I ain't taking that. It makes my belly hurt.

I'm not making fun of your concerns, they are legitimate. That said, anxiety over change is something that should be addressed in any treatment modality, we even treat that with more meds in a lot of situations. However; if and when it gets to the point that that anxiety is interfering with your life to the point where it is adversely affecting it, we usually consider that a disorder.

On a side note, people can learn with anxiety, mild anxiety actually helps the learning process, moderate anxiety can learn as well, though usually not the best of learning. It's severe and panic that learning can't happen. Not that you may or may not be any of those, just want to correct the facts.

[SirNitram]

The blurb you linked to is identical to the SS Disability policy if there is a widely availiable and non-risky cure, IRC. So if it happened before I get a liver(And thus go back to work), I might well find myself in that situation.

[Knife]

You change, not because the fundamental architecture of your brain changes past a certain age, but because you lay down additional memories and genes coding for certain neurotransmitters get up or down regulated and thus change the way you react to stimuli (mood regulation etc).

Don't be silly, new pathways are changing the hard ware of your mind, and you do that as you develop through childhood into adulthood up to around age 25-ish. One could also argue that plaque and tangles that develop in Alzheimers also 'changes who you are' and represents 50-80% of all dementia cases. I don't doubt for a moment that we would highly encourage a 'cure' for those fundamental changes in brain architecture, even though people suffering from dementia don't realize they have it and probably wouldn't choose to 'cure' themselves.

Autism is an abnormality in everything from the limbic system to speech and face recognition. Way the hell a different matter to start messing with that. One can get better through cognitive therapy, to recognize certain behaviors are irrational etc, but the issue is still there, and you cant get rid of everything. I have worked long and hard to be as socially functional as I am. I meditate sometimes to calm my nerves etc. It never gets me over issues like social anxiety, but it allows me to function. You add on, you reroute, you re-regulate, you learn how to recognize faces and names and you deal with the symptoms, but the underlying root cause never goes away.

You're validating your hard work through the effort, and if you 'cured' yourself all that hard work would be meaningless. Understandable, but if it inhibits normal functioning, it's a disorder in and of itself.

I think they should have the choice. My intellect for example is a large part of how I define myself, and what makes my life worth living. Why would I change this when I am more or less content with the tradeoff?

Of course they should have a choice goober. However, it is not that rare of a thing for people to obsess and focus on one personality trait to use as a crutch and as a shield for their problems. It is their choice, but it is the job of health care, and as society as a whole, to encourage them not to and join the rest of us.

Edited for clarity.

[Starglider]

Is an outright 'cure' for adults even vaguely likely (without radical invasive neurosurgery)? Everything I have read about potential autism cures relates to brain development in babies and children. Also the assumption that curing autism (in an adult) will automatically reduce intelligence strikes me as highly dubious.

[Knife]

Is an outright 'cure' for adults even vaguely likely (without radical invasive neurosurgery)? Everything I have read about potential autism cures relates to brain development in babies and children.

To be fair, I know little about it. To my knowledge, they don't understand the mechanism for autism anyways, so any 'cure' is silly at this point. Through treatment, I'm sure then can get some sense of management with meds and other treatments, but a cure implies they understand the underlying pathophysiology and can correct it.

[SirNitram]

Is an outright 'cure' for adults even vaguely likely (without radical invasive neurosurgery)? Everything I have read about potential autism cures relates to brain development in babies and children.

To be fair, I know little about it. To my knowledge, they don't understand the mechanism for autism anyways, so any 'cure' is silly at this point. Through treatment, I'm sure then can get some sense of management with meds and other treatments, but a cure implies they understand the underlying pathophysiology and can correct it.

This.

Current treatment is coping mechanisms, careful testing of medication to see if it has bad side effects on the people, and basically learning how to live in a Neurotypical world. This stuff is the stuff it's irresponsible not to get, but thankfully no one's ever suggested that. At least no one not currently high as a kite.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Current treatment is coping mechanisms, careful testing of medication to see if it has bad side effects on the people, and basically learning how to live in a Neurotypical world. This stuff is the stuff it's irresponsible not to get, but thankfully no one's ever suggested that. At least no one not currently high as a kite.

Backpedal some more Martin; you are the one who said fuck the world those mean neurotypicals should deal with me HOW I AM WOOOO. Frankly that childish attitude comes up way too often when talking to people on the spectrum.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Don't be silly, new pathways are changing the hard ware of your mind, and you do that as you develop through childhood into adulthood up to around age 25-ish. One could also argue that plaque and tangles that develop in Alzheimers also 'changes who you are' and represents 50-80% of all dementia cases. I don't doubt for a moment that we would highly encourage a 'cure' for those fundamental changes in brain architecture, even though people suffering from dementia don't realize they have it and probably wouldn't choose to 'cure' themselves.

That is why I specified "past a certain age". You change some pathways, but it is soft change. A new face gets put in the proverbial registry, a new memory gets laid down that changes how you react to a certain stimuli given the fundamental architecture. That is what I am getting at. I will also stipulate that my argument does not apply to neurodegenerative conditions like dementia, for the exact same reasons. In a way, they mind-kill the person. That is the harm it does. The person who was there, is no longer there.

The point is, a person's development is a continuous process. It happens gradually over time, and the brain's development regulates itself in such a way that the changes that do take place are not damaging to other processes, memories etc. When I say "fundamental architecture" I mean the portion of who you are that formed due to genetics and natal development. The core of your personality basically.

A medication capable of "curing" autism would have to restructure large areas of the brain at once (lets not even think about how. it is magic). It is discontinuous change. It would rapidly alter many of the structures that determine that core personality. That is the problem.

Current treatment is coping mechanisms, careful testing of medication to see if it has bad side effects on the people, and basically learning how to live in a Neurotypical world. This stuff is the stuff it's irresponsible not to get, but thankfully no one's ever suggested that. At least no one not currently high as a kite.

Exactly. One can treat many of the co-morbid issues like depression through standard medication and therapy. No one here has suggested that people dont do that.

Backpedal some more Martin; you are the one who said fuck the world those mean neurotypicals should deal with me HOW I AM WOOOO. Frankly that childish attitude comes up way too often when talking to people on the spectrum.

Query:

Do you ever contribute anything worth while at all?

[JointStrikeFighter]

Query:

Do you ever contribute anything worth while at all?

Query: are you the arbiter of worthwhile?

My experiences dealing with Aspergers are just as valid as yours you elitist prick.

Want some worth? Employments and Adults with Aspergers Syndrome

All of the participants had negative experiences
in the world of work over a period
of several years. For the most part,
they had not been able to obtain jobs in
the fields they had been trained in, and
each had lost many jobs in the past.

I have a degree in political science and am
just trying to get a decent job with decent
pay and benefits. I have cleaned cat cages,
done janitorial work (which is boring, boring,
boring), office work at the VA, [been]
a telemarketer (which I hated, but I learned
how to do public speaking!), and worked
in a group home on the early morning
shift.

Oh look she learnt to improve her self so as to get a job. BUT NO THE BIG BAD WORLD BETTER FUCKING CHANGE FOR ME

Jack noted that he had not been in the
world of work for long but admitted that
he had struggled with the jobs he had
held so far. He said that his concentration
was better when he worked within a
small group of people because “there is
too much confusion when too many
people are around.”

Work poorly in teams

Adolescents and adults with AS appear
to be at risk for depression; therefore, involved
professionals should note any
changes in behavior that may indicate
signs of depression, such as high levels
of disorganization, inattentiveness, isolation,
excessive fatigue, and suicidal remarks
(Barnhill, 2001)

Elevated risks of depression

[JointStrikeFighter]

Lets just build on the theme of AS fucking you over in the real world

Many
times jobs end prematurely, often leading to low self-esteem
and depression (Goode, Rutter, & Howlin, 1994).

Berney (2004), Ghaziuddin et al. (1998), and Tantam
(1991, 2000a, 2000b) reported that affective disorders, including
bipolar disorder and anxiety disorder, also coexist with
AS, and that suicide rates are higher than would be expected
for the general population (Wing, 2000)

The typical temperament patterns observed (utilizing the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory–
Second Edition (MMPI-2))were
obsessional, passive–dependent, and explosive

research has suggested that mortality rates among
individuals with ASD below the age of 30 are substantially
higher (2%) than in the general population (0.6%; Gillberg,
1991).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Query: are you the arbiter of worthwhile?

Sure, why not.

My experiences dealing with Aspergers are just as valid as yours you elitist prick.

Not when you are just being a douche for the sake of being a douche.

Do you have a link to your source? I would love to be able to look at whole quotations and see when the stats were done etc.

Oh look she learnt to improve her self so as to get a job. BUT NO THE BIG BAD WORLD BETTER FUCKING CHANGE FOR ME

Gee, and here I am getting a PhD and have been gainfully employed every year since I was 16, save for my 2nd year of university. You know how? I worked very hard through my adolescent years to function decently, and found ways to help people relate to my personal idiosyncrasies. I also found/built a strong social support network. Some people don't have that, or have a more severe case. For those people, reasonable accommodations can and should be made. It is just like building wheelchair ramps. Sure, a person in a wheelchair may need to work a little harder, but at the same time, it is not unreasonable to build a ramp rather than make them negotiate flights of stairs. This is not a hard concept.

Elevated risks of depression

And why on earth would they have that, exactly? Could it be social isolation because people are petty jackasses? I think so.