Autistic Appointee to US Govt Agency Does not support a Cure

[SirNitram]

Current treatment is coping mechanisms, careful testing of medication to see if it has bad side effects on the people, and basically learning how to live in a Neurotypical world. This stuff is the stuff it's irresponsible not to get, but thankfully no one's ever suggested that. At least no one not currently high as a kite.

Backpedal some more Martin; you are the one who said fuck the world those mean neurotypicals should deal with me HOW I AM WOOOO. Frankly that childish attitude comes up way too often when talking to people on the spectrum.

Really? Where? By the way, if it's from 2008, I have changed since then. Necessity and all that.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Gee, and here I am getting a PhD and have been gainfully employed every year since I was 16, save for my 2nd year of university. You know how? I worked very hard through my adolescent years to function decently, and found ways to help people relate to my personal idiosyncrasies. I also found/built a strong social support network. Some people don't have that, or have a more severe case. For those people, reasonable accommodations can and should be made. It is just like building wheelchair ramps. Sure, a person in a wheelchair may need to work a little harder, but at the same time, it is not unreasonable to build a ramp rather than make them negotiate flights of stairs. This is not a hard concept.

Cool we agree; you worked hard to change and life became better, rather than sitting around moping that the world is mean.


JN "Focus on autism and other developmental disabilities" and "Employment and Adults With Asperger Syndrome" and DT "2004" and AU (Hurlbutt, Karen )

I already closed the other article and CBA finding it again.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Elevated risks of depression

And why on earth would they have that, exactly? Could it be social isolation because people are petty jackasses? I think so.

Ooops, there you go; blaming those mean NTs again.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Elevated risks of depression

And why on earth would they have that, exactly? Could it be social isolation because people are petty jackasses? I think so.

Ooops, there you go; blaming those mean NTs again.

Sometimes, asshole, you have meet in the middle. I work hard, and outside of my actual work, am socially isolated. Why? Because I moved for grad school and the social network I spent a decade building is gone. I am finally, after two years, managing to make friends. Why? Because I am really friendly but weird as fuck. I cant blame the NTs, but at the same time, it really would be nice if I did not have to bear the full burden of it. You know, if people were taught at some point not to judge people with odd posture, and a lack of ability to intuitively grasp many social cues.

[JointStrikeFighter]

The thing is that whilst it's all very well and good to say that people shouldn't judge others for not understanding social cues those social cues are INCREDILBLY important to normal human interaction in every facet of life; people use them to decide friends, who to trust, who not to trust, who can be counted on to finish their work, who can be trusted with the payroll because the only insight we have into anothers motivations are our own reads of their social cues. Societies and cultures are built around these cues so we can't just ask people to ignore them.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The thing is that whilst it's all very well and good to say that people shouldn't judge others for not understanding social cues those social cues are INCREDILBLY important to normal human interaction in every facet of life; people use them to decide friends, who to trust, who not to trust, who can be counted on to finish their work, who can be trusted with the payroll because the only insight we have into anothers motivations are our own reads of their social cues. Societies and cultures are built around these cues so we can't just ask people to ignore them.

Not ignore. Correct for. To understand that what they pick up does not necessarily indicate anything. To learn how to read a different set. I have to learn some of theirs, it is not unreasonable to think they can learn to read some of mine, or to understand that certain oddities are just that.

[JointStrikeFighter]

The thing is that whilst it's all very well and good to say that people shouldn't judge others for not understanding social cues those social cues are INCREDILBLY important to normal human interaction in every facet of life; people use them to decide friends, who to trust, who not to trust, who can be counted on to finish their work, who can be trusted with the payroll because the only insight we have into anothers motivations are our own reads of their social cues. Societies and cultures are built around these cues so we can't just ask people to ignore them.

Not ignore. Correct for. To understand that what they pick up does not necessarily indicate anything. To learn how to read a different set. I have to learn some of theirs, it is not unreasonable to think they can learn to read some of mine, or to understand that certain oddities are just that.

I can't fault that.

[Shroom Man 777]

What's your point, JSF? Yes, auties have difficulty interacting with neurotypical (what kind of shit word is that?) society or whatever and this causes even more difficulties for them, such as the aforementioned depression and suicide risks. Yes, it would be good for auties to get treatment to make their problems more bearable, and it would be good to see them work their asses off to do shit.

But what is so wrong or bad or horrible about "neurotypicals" compromising and giving them some leeway and accomodations? Is that such a horrific prospect? Should society not try to help them? Should they be left to fend for themselves and actualize themselves through the glories of free market capitalism, where only through rugged manly self-sufficiency and moneymaking can they make their path in this neo-imperialistic neo-colonialistic neoplastic neurotypical world of neologisms? No one has ever said that the auties shouldn't be allowed to pull their own weight and work for themselves - while getting some special considerations due to their conditions, which is basically what others are saying.

I don't get why people are being such a bunch of pussies bitching and being such a bunch of flippant shits just stirring shit around, to the point where actually discussing shit is impossible because acting like a bunch of smarmy assholes is hardly conducive to communication *I'm a smarmy asshole* am i rite who knew lols.

[Bakustra]

What's your point, JSF? Yes, auties have difficulty interacting with neurotypical (what kind of shit word is that?) society or whatever and this causes even more difficulties for them, such as the aforementioned depression and suicide risks. Yes, it would be good for auties to get treatment to make their problems more bearable, and it would be good to see them work their asses off to do shit.

But what is so wrong or bad or horrible about "neurotypicals" compromising and giving them some leeway and accomodations? Is that such a horrific prospect? Should society not try to help them? Should they be left to fend for themselves and actualize themselves through the glories of free market capitalism, where only through rugged manly self-sufficiency and moneymaking can they make their path in this neo-imperialistic neo-colonialistic neoplastic neurotypical world of neologisms? No one has ever said that the auties shouldn't be allowed to pull their own weight and work for themselves - while getting some special considerations due to their conditions, which is basically what others are saying.

I don't get why people are being such a bunch of pussies bitching and being such a bunch of flippant shits just stirring shit around, to the point where actually discussing shit is impossible because acting like a bunch of smarmy assholes is hardly conducive to communication *I'm a smarmy asshole* am i rite who knew lols.

You could look over in SLAM for a study that indicates that the stigma of a mental disorder is the same whether it's thought to be biological or nonbiological in origin. But the same thing happens with the overweight. People call for forcible diets and direct, massive interventions to force a healthy body-weight, alongside massive ad campaigns to induce depression in the overweight. If I were being smarmy, I'd say that this is because most people are secret fascists, but being sincere, I'd say that this is due to a number of factors.

One of them is the disgust associated with the condition. People have a more visceral reaction to both, though for autism this is mainly thanks to TV. People that have the condition and worked to overcome it (this differs in practical effect, of course) generally tend to be less sympathetic as well. So these factors, and there are probably others, combine to produce a great deal of negativity towards any accommodation. This in turn produces insularity, and then the situation undergoes positive feedback, although no society has exploded yet. This isn't universal, but it is common.

[Alphawolf55]

If a candidate does a personality test that reveals they are insular, antisocial, have a low stress threshold and obvious stress reactions, trouble multi-tasking, trouble forming genuine relationships, difficulty understanding the motives behind people's actions or the games people play with tactics and motives, this will seriously degrade the odds of them being hired.

Saying 'don't discriminate because they're autistic' is meaningless in this context.

That's not what I mean.Sometimes they have a problem seeing the situation from the boss's point of view and answer perfectly legitimate answers that aren't business legitimate or aren't able to figure out what a boss would want because they have problems crossing out potential answers seeing the flaw and benefit of every question.

"You have a problem at work who do you talk to?"

You could answer ask a coworker because not every manager wants to be bothered by their underlings, but you could also answer ask the manager because hey some managers want you to go through them before doing anything.

Or "Your boss is giving you a long list of assignments but you can't keep up which do you do"

"Ask him to repeat himself" People may not want workers who can't keep up

"Ask for a list" This could sound demanding

'Ask for him to wait and get a pen" Answer this and you could potentially be shown as unprepared

"Just try to remember the best you can"

Again it's not as simple as "These people are horrible workers and unfit for the job" it's a case where sometimes there are superficial behaviors to the job that prevent them from getting it in the first place.

[Sarevok]

Just lumping all people with autistic condition into one homogeneous block may not be right for decison making on this "autism cure". Anyone know the percentage of people diagnosed autistic who could function normally vs the segment who have severe difficulty performing basic tasks ? It could be that the latter group would benifit from said cure while the former have no need.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I'm throwing my lot in with Nitram and Alyrium on this. For the record, I most likely suffer from Asperger's Syndrome, the doctor didn't think it'd be worth actually testing for since the treatment would be the same as for my Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. The psychiastrists are fairly sure I suffer from it, given my problems and behaviors, and my mother is all but certain from what she's read after the docs mentioned it. I wouldn't take any magical "cure", because it would fundamentally alter who I am. Sorry, I'm not reformating my brain for the sake of "normality". It's that simple. That said, I am on a stable level of SSRIs and anti anxiety medications that allow me to function at least somewhat normally, though I'm still not comfortable in social situations (unless its mostly family/close acquaintances) and dread having to actually have to speak/interact with people I don't know. I also doubt there are many people out there who refuse to do absolutely nothing, and expect society to completely change for them. More likely is the fact that healthcare is screwed up in this country and they aren't being treated or have never even been diagnosed as having a problem. Funny, that it turns out that poverty tends to affect peoples health like that.

That said, Shroom,Alyrium,and others thanks for being the voice of intelligent reasoning in this thread. Also, Bakustra you make, as usual, a very interesting point.

PS: Alyrium, my hats off to you for being able to leave your social safety net in persuance of your dreams. I am no where near that point (albeit my social contacts are basically reduced to family at this point), though I hope to be able to someday.

[Thanas]

Thread cleaned. Continue.

[Knife]

I'll still reiterate my original problem with all this, the 'I won't kill myself' with a 'cure' argument. Any number of diagnosis and disorders are treated and 'cured' through changing the way people think and how they act, essentially changing 'who' they are. AD's nitpick on the actual change in structure of the neuropathways instead of something like changing enzyme production and/or reuptake and blocking receptors, as if one was more important than the other in relation to 'who you are' is just damn silly and shows bias for his own conditions. In severe seizure disorders, we cut the corpus callusom separating the two hemisphere radically changing the architecture of the brain. People choose this because the 'change' is better than the disease.

People with Schizophrenia are usually given an SSRI, massive increases in serotonin change the way we think, process information, and changes 'who' we are. People with eating disorders need to change 'who' they are, including self image, and how they think about food. It changes who they are.

So besides normal growth and developmental changes, ie: the whole you aren't who you were in high school when you're 25, we also change people all the time for medical reasons and lifestyle reasons. Of course people should have a choice; however, if your personal disorder is resistant to change, is gets lumped in with the symptoms and health care providers should be persistent on the issue. Using the disorder as both a crutch and a shield is not any more health than any other person using their disorder as a crutch and shield. Saying that you're just fine with autism and don't want to 'change yourself' but I take SSRI's, or I've worked for years and I don't want to invalidate all that work with a 'cure' is just feeding back into your disorder.

[Formless]

You could look over in SLAM for a study that indicates that the stigma of a mental disorder is the same whether it's thought to be biological or nonbiological in origin. But the same thing happens with the overweight. People call for forcible diets and direct, massive interventions to force a healthy body-weight, alongside massive ad campaigns to induce depression in the overweight. If I were being smarmy, I'd say that this is because most people are secret fascists, but being sincere, I'd say that this is due to a number of factors.

To elaborate, the thread is here and its actually multiple studies over several years that indicate it. They also indicate that the stigma is worse for biological explanations, though it exists for both.

[open_sketchbook]

I think that the whole argument is silly in the first place. There won't ever be a magical cure for the autism spectrum; it's just too much of the brain affected, so the pro-cure side is essentially arguing a moot point, and on top of that the spectrum is blurring into neurotypical patterns so smoothly that it's going to be pretty hard to draw a line and go "everyone past here is autistic!".

On the other hand, just getting treatment for autism will change a person into a different person; change is fundamentally part of the human experience and the idea that the old you dies when change happens... well, yeah, that is sort of the way it goes. As far as I'm concerned, I die every time I go to sleep and I woke up this morning with somebody else's memories. I'm so different from a couple of years ago that my old self would probably slug me for being a close-minded asshole and I'd hit him back for being a new age pussy, and we'd both team up on the self before that for not paying attention in math class. The defination of "me" changes constantly and old selves die in every sense except that there is no body. There is no way to stay yourself short of freezing all brain activity.

[Formless]

Just a nitpick, but memory can be thought of as documentation of the change you've gone through. Its what gives us a continuity of experience despite our beliefs and attitudes changing throughout life.

[LadyTevar]

I'll still reiterate my original problem with all this, the 'I won't kill myself' with a 'cure' argument. Any number of diagnosis and disorders are treated and 'cured' through changing the way people think and how they act, essentially changing 'who' they are. AD's nitpick on the actual change in structure of the neuropathways instead of something like changing enzyme production and/or reuptake and blocking receptors, as if one was more important than the other in relation to 'who you are' is just damn silly and shows bias for his own conditions. In severe seizure disorders, we cut the corpus callusom separating the two hemisphere radically changing the architecture of the brain. People choose this because the 'change' is better than the disease.

Once again, this falls back on the question "Where/what do we cut?" Autism is not just one pathway, one receptor/enzyme. Those that have managed to adapt enough to function, even a little, with the outside world each have their own work-arounds and coping mechanisms. Is it not plausible to assume (until studied and proven) that their neural pathways are different from the 'typical' adult, because they have had to improvise around the "bad wiring"* in their brain?



* "Bad Wiring" is being used as visual imagery only. It is not meant to explain why Nitram has problems putting faces to names, or why he has trouble reading people's social cues.

[Knife]

Once again, this falls back on the question "Where/what do we cut?" Autism is not just one pathway, one receptor/enzyme. Those that have managed to adapt enough to function, even a little, with the outside world each have their own work-arounds and coping mechanisms. Is it not plausible to assume (until studied and proven) that their neural pathways are different from the 'typical' adult, because they have had to improvise around the "bad wiring"* in their brain?.

Yes, that's fine, but like I said, people can and do use that as a validation to such a degree that they use it as a shield and crutch which is not healthy. Hanging onto one treatment as if no other exists, in this case a hypothetical cure, is not rational nor healthy. We know people do this in other diseases, but we generally don't think it's a healthy thing. We know stressed out people eat comfort food, good for them for coping with the stress some how, but it's not in the long term a good thing to over eat if you're over stressed.

If you have autism, and there is a 'cure' but you rather just manage it, then it indicates a problem. I sympathize with people who want a choice, they should indeed be able to reject treatment; however,that doesn't always make them in the 'right' position either. Obese people who rather keep managing their stress with eating are generally looked down upon, Alzheimer's who don't even realize they have dementia probably wouldn't want a cure for their illness since they don't think they have one. People refuse to have treatment for heart problems all the time, ie: they don't lose weight, and they die. Their choice but doesn't make them any less than a damn fool for doing it. Same here.

If there was a cure for autism, you'd be a damn fool to let symptoms of the disease be used as an excuses to not be cured.

[Stark]

PS: Alyrium, my hats off to you for being able to leave your social safety net in persuance of your dreams. I am no where near that point (albeit my social contacts are basically reduced to family at this point), though I hope to be able to someday.

It's amusing that people who take steps to deal with their problems also face these challenges, but you don't respect that because they disagree with you. I'm personally not seeing the gulf between 'medicated' and 'cured' beyond a cure actually working as opposed to moderating the symptoms, but I guess wanting a better life for myself and my children is crazy.

[Knife]

PS: Alyrium, my hats off to you for being able to leave your social safety net in persuance of your dreams. I am no where near that point (albeit my social contacts are basically reduced to family at this point), though I hope to be able to someday.

It's amusing that people who take steps to deal with their problems also face these challenges, but you don't respect that because they disagree with you. I'm personally not seeing the gulf between 'medicated' and 'cured' beyond a cure actually working as opposed to moderating the symptoms, but I guess wanting a better life for myself and my children is crazy.

The stigma of mental health follows here. If you will yourself to be better, then you're tough and ok. If you take a med or therapy to do it, well that just isn't right, you should just will yourself into it. It's silly, but as they continuously say, it's there choice.

[Stark]

Thing is, without going into personal details, people on this board I know personally have been through this 'transformation' from barely-functional antisocial and unhappy tosenior and valued positions, long term relationships, etc.

Are they different people now? Yes.
Are they happier? Yes.
Are they more functional? Yes.
Are they a doppleganger replacement of their younger self through a consciousness discontinuity? No.

[Anguirus]

My god, I've never seen a strawman-to-page ratio as high as it is in this thread.

Ari Ne'eman is not advocating an end to basic research into autism, just advocating for tolerance and denouncing some specific instances of "autistic people aren't people" propaganda that I hope we can all agree are pretty egregious. How in the fuck did this get twisted into "you want to take away my freedom to have a hypothetical magic cure pill"?

Good heavens, one's political position on a magic pill for adults with autism is about as relevant as one's political position on fairy dust. If the problem were inherently simple, we would know that by now. Let's call this thread what it is: a debate on how funds should be spent to best decrease the negative effects of autism on society. I find it refreshing that there is a prominent voice who's not a vaccine crank or a "changeling took my son away" type. Not to mention who is actually autistic and has that perspective. (Full disclosure: I'm not, and I don't.)

To put it another way, there is no reason why the Americans with Disabilities Act and research into treating spinal cord injuries with stem cells are mutually exclusive.

[LadyTevar]

Yes, that's fine, but like I said, people can and do use that as a validation to such a degree that they use it as a shield and crutch which is not healthy. Hanging onto one treatment as if no other exists, in this case a hypothetical cure, is not rational nor healthy.
(snip)
If there was a cure for autism, you'd be a damn fool to let symptoms of the disease be used as an excuses to not be cured.

Let us take a look at the common 'cures' that a simple Google-check brought up.
1. "New Autism Cure" -- “NOW Families Can Start Enjoying Life… The Kind Of Life Where Your Child Can Speak Their Feelings, Show Love, Spring Out Of Bed At 6:00 AM Every Day To Go To Normal School, Free, Refreshed And Ready For All The Beautiful Moments In Life You Thought Autism Had Stolen From Them Forever… ”
What is the proffered cure?

# How to use chelation to detoxify the body of heavy metals, and treat the symptoms of autism
# How to heal your child by simply changing their diet (I include three special diets you have to know about)!
# Simple ways to heal the gut, making your child feel better physically and mentally
# Which supplements to add to your child's diet to profoundly improve your child's health and behaviour

2. Newsweek article French scientists used a Oxycotin nasal spray in a limited experiment on Asperger's Syndrome patients.

3. Applied Behavior Analysis, based on B.F. Skinner's behavior analysis. It boils down to basic rewards for good behavior, and often punishments for bad.

[Knife]

Who cares about that T? Nobody was advocating witch doctor shit. The conversation turned this way with a hypothetical 'cure' not a crack pot bullshit item. Though sniffing aerosol MS cottin would be a hell of a thing.