SGU 2x2 Aftermath

[Adrian McNair]

Now that's more like it. That was a definite improvement over the lacklustre season opener. It had decent drama and enough of a mystery at the conclusion to reel me in for this week's installment.

I think that Rush's visions/hallucinations of Gloria and Franklin are probably side-effects of his time spent in the chair, but that may be a far too logical explanation (given the stupid supernatural bullshit revolving around TJ it could, unfortunately, point to something else entirely). Rush might also be correct in his theory that the ship is trying to communicate with him.

Riley's death was quite effective (probably the best of the character deaths thus far) and I liked that Young and Scott were emotionally affected by it. On that note, hilariously, Chloe was even more superfluous in this episode than the prior one. Did she do anything in this episode other than comfort Scott at the end? They should just kill her off and give that pretty Lucian Alliance Redhead top-billing. She's a far more interesting and useful character than Chloe could ever be. Then again, Riley's rotting corpse is also a far more interesting and useful character than Chloe could ever be. And no, constantly making increasingly tenuous references to the aliens in the callbacks isn't going to help with that!

They solved the greater problems associated with the Lucian Alliance prisoners fairly quickly. I think that out of the ones they kept aboard Varro and Pretty Lucian Alliance Redhead (or PLAR. I'm trademarking that acronym post-haste) will earn their keep. Robert Knepper will obviously be the royal prick of the bunch, so there will still be opportunities for conflict.
Spoiler

So this is what a Stargate Seeding ship looks like. Interesting.

[JME2]

I think that Rush's visions/hallucinations of Gloria and Franklin are probably side-effects of his time spent in the chair, but that may be a far too logical explanation (given the stupid supernatural bullshit revolving around TJ it could, unfortunately, point to something else entirely). Rush might also be correct in his theory that the ship is trying to communicate with him.

I'm wary of the supernatural bullshit angle, too; I'm in no mood to go through it again after nBSG.

I'm curious if we'll see the deported Lucian prisoners again. Then again, I'm still wondering if Palmer and Curtis will rise from the dead.

Anyway, the remaining Lucian prisoners make for interesting story possibilities. The military/civilian conflict in Season 1 isn't dead; it was merely pushed into hibernation because of the incursion. It'll be interesting to see how long that unity lasts before everything goes to hell again, if at all.

[Adrian McNair]

I'm wary of the supernatural bullshit angle, too;

You'd think that having a vast universe to explore would offer enough storytelling opportunities, but noooo it's not good enough. The problem with introducing god-like aliens/entities is that they marginalise the contributions of the main characters, rendering their accomplishments insignificant. Or they spout vague, cryptic statements that mean fuck all.

I'm in no mood to go through it again after nBSG.

Hear, hear. I'm sick of seeing decent shows ruined by the writers' inability to keep the plot grounded. It happened in Lost where the mystical malarkey overrode the legitimately interesting mysteries of the Island. It happened in Neon Genesis Evangelion where the series final went off the rails (I'm referring to both the TV series ending and End of Evangelion here). It keeps happening and it doesn't get any less annoying each time.

I'm curious if we'll see the deported Lucian prisoners again.

Probably not. They don't really deserve to be brought back aboard anyway. Varro and the Alliance Redhead have earned a chance, but not the rest. I think the possibility of a Lucian Alliance attack on Earth brought up in this episode is probably going to have more traction as far as story threads go. They wouldn't bring up something that major and just discard it (I hope).

Though I still can't see why the Lucian Alliance would be a threat to Earth. They're hopelessly outgunned in the capital ship department. I don't understand why the SGC doesn't just send BC-304 taskforces against all of the Alliance's major bases and shipyards. Then again the General Hammond's lack of return fire against the Ha'taks in the Pilot was also baffling (and a gaping plot hole to boot).

Then again, I'm still wondering if Palmer and Curtis will rise from the dead.

I thought you were referring to 24's David Palmer and Curtis Manning at first. We probably won't see them again. Even if they made it to a habitable world and managed to survive for this long they're still in the galaxy Destiny left behind. Unless we see evidence to the contrary I think we can write them off.

Anyway, the remaining Lucian prisoners make for interesting story possibilities. The military/civilian conflict in Season 1 isn't dead; it was merely pushed into hibernation because of the incursion. It'll be interesting to see how long that unity lasts before everything goes to hell again, if at all.

At this point the civilians are perfectly justified in having Colonel Young removed from his position. He has demonstrated staggering incompetence (allowing Destiny to briefly fall into the hands of the Alliance when he had the home-field advantage, for instance) and poor leadership. It might have been deliciously ironic witnessing Rush say that Young was mentally unstable to a hallucination, but he was right on the money.

[NecronLord]

Though I still can't see why the Lucian Alliance would be a threat to Earth. They're hopelessly outgunned in the capital ship department.

It's been stated by the writers that the SGU pilot was deliberately intended to represent up-gunning of Lucian Ha'taks. Three of them decisively outmatch a 304. They'd need... twelve, plus some extra to deal with Odyssey's ZPM. More if Atlantis is still on Earth.

Easily doable though, and they could reduce Earth to a smoking ball of ash after.

[Adrian McNair]

It's been stated by the writers that the SGU pilot was deliberately intended to represent up-gunning of Lucian Ha'taks.

That statement doesn't really track with what occurred on screen. The General Hammond was still in the fight not too long before the Icarus planet exploded. Nor does it match what we know about the Lucian Alliance. They don't have the resources or the technical expertise to pose a threat to Earth's interests. They're a glorified crime syndicate with spaceships. Propping them up and making them anything more than a paper tiger is ridiculous. They should be a nuisance at best. It's one of the more unbelievable things the writers have done (and given what's been taking place in the series, that's really saying something). The only way you could explain the Alliance's supposed increase in strength is massive incompetence on the part of Earth.

Three of them decisively outmatch a 304. They'd need... twelve, plus some extra to deal with Odyssey's ZPM. More if Atlantis is still on Earth.

They only outmatched the General Hammond because the script demanded it. We saw no evidence of Carter giving the order to fire the Asgard Beams, even though that should have been her first priority. We didn't see the Ha'tak's being fired upon and withstanding the beam weapons. We saw nothing to indicate that the Alliance has become powerful enough to be a threat. We're just supposed to assume that the Hammond was having trouble overcoming them (for some unknown reason). It was sloppy writing, pure and simple.

Easily doable though, and they could reduce Earth to a smoking ball of ash after.

I highly doubt that. Odyssey wouldn't be the only ship on station. They'd need to overcome Earth's entire fleet (and it's safe to assume that they've repaired the ships that were damaged by the Super-Hive's attack) and Atlantis first, which would be a highly unlikely proposition. And that's assuming Earth doesn't launch a pre-emptive strike and fuck them over first.

The fact is, we don't know what the Alliance's total fleet strength is. Judging by the attack on Icarus Base (Three Ha'tak's were all they could muster against such a high value target?), it's not particularly impressive.

[adam_grif]

We're just supposed to assume that the Hammond was having trouble overcoming them (for some unknown reason). It was sloppy writing, pure and simple.

We have statements from the writers to the effect that the Lucian ships can and have been improved in some capacity, which was why they out-muscled the Hammond. I do agree that it is sloppy writing, however it is also canonical unless we see visual evidence overriding it. Unfortunately. I mean, 1uping the Asgard legacy seems to me almost spitting in the face of their Season 10 sendoff, the implication of which was ultimately supposed to be that humanity had been deemed trustworthy, and were rewarded with the most advanced tech in the known universe as a result, which would assure their dominance.

But whatever.

The fact is, we don't know what the Alliance's total fleet strength is. Judging by the attack on Icarus Base (Three Ha'tak's were all they could muster against such a high value target?), it's not particularly impressive.

Was the Icarus base actually a high value target, or was it just highly valued by one small part of the Alliance? I don't believe we've been given any reason to believe that it was a focus of the whole, or even a large part of the alliance.

[Adrian McNair]

We have statements from the writers to the effect that the Lucian ships can and have been improved in some capacity, which was why they out-muscled the Hammond. I do agree that it is sloppy writing, however it is also canonical unless we see visual evidence overriding it. Unfortunately. I mean, 1uping the Asgard legacy seems to me almost spitting in the face of their Season 10 sendoff, the implication of which was ultimately supposed to be that humanity had been deemed trustworthy, and were rewarded with the most advanced tech in the known universe as a result, which would assure their dominance.

That's one of the reasons why it's so cloying. Criminals from primitive worlds should not be able to overcome technologies developed by one of the most advanced races to ever occupy the Milky Way. They might know how to use the Goa'uld tech they have, but that doesn't automatically mean they know how it all functions (or how to improve upon what they possess).

There should have been some evidence that this was the case. Or the Alliance should have attacked in overwhelming force (Say 20 Ha'taks).

Was the Icarus base actually a high value target, or was it just highly valued by one small part of the Alliance? I don't believe we've been given any reason to believe that it was a focus of the whole, or even a large part of the alliance.

Perhaps it was just a portion of the Alliance (presumably Kiva's faction). It still doesn't explain away the glaring issues with the Battle of Icarus Base, though.

[adam_grif]

That's one of the reasons why it's so cloying. Criminals from primitive worlds should not be able to overcome technologies developed by one of the most advanced races to ever occupy the Milky Way.

They might have just stolen specifications and some of the asgard tech directly from Earth since they obviously have people inside the SGC.

[JME2]

Or, as we speculated in Season 1, they recovered Ha'taks upgraded by Anubis during his campaign.

There's also still the possibility that somebody's backing the Lucians, but I doubt it.

I also want to add, I like Destiny's bridge design; you can sort of see the beginnings of the Aurora-class bridge.

[Zac Naloen]

The timeline also suggested that the Gen. Hammond was not yet finished and only on that mission as it was A: a milk run and B: the other ships either stranded in pegasus or on a top secret mission (the odyssey) so plausibly wouldn't have had it's beam weapons installed/active.

[Siege]

I think the fact that the Lucian Alliance includes people like Kiva who runs an operation dedicated to figuring out the 8th chevron on the stargate disproves the idea that they're just a gang of petty criminals. They're a syndicate in control of a whole bunch of worlds with a small fleet of starships at their disposal. They might be warlords, but it bears keeping in mind that they're warlords on a galactic scale. Even if they're not as technologically sophisticated as Earth they might still be in possession of vastly superior resources, and thus pose a credible threat. Besides, who knows how many people like Ginn they keep around in order to figure out stuff left behind by the Goa'uld, Anubis, the Ancients or the Ori?

[JME2]

It's interesting that Earth alone appears to be dealing with them; you would think the Jaffa and Tok'ra would also be trying to stop these guys from expanding. They probably are off screen, but the Tau'ri may simply be an easier target for the Alliance at the moment.

[Zac Naloen]

It's interesting that Earth alone appears to be dealing with them; you would think the Jaffa and Tok'ra would also be trying to stop these guys from expanding. They probably are off screen, but the Tau'ri may simply be an easier target for the Alliance at the moment.

Arguably the Tau'ri are the weakest.


Small territory, frosty relationship with allies.


They may be the most highly advanced thanks to the asgard but they are hugely out numbered and aren't seen to be doing enough to help the other humans in the Galaxy as well. It's actually a similar position to what the ancients found themselves in in Pegasus. Small amount of irony as it's also a situation of their own making.

[JME2]

They may be the most highly advanced thanks to the asgard but they are hugely out numbered and aren't seen to be doing enough to help the other humans in the Galaxy as well. It's actually a similar position to what the ancients found themselves in in Pegasus. Small amount of irony as it's also a situation of their own making.

Yeah, they've come full circle with the Ancients.

This is one of the things I did like about SG-1's final 2 years. There were geopolitical consequences from the Goa'uld's defeat and Earth, consequences that are still coming into play in SGU.

[Adrian McNair]

The way I see it, the only reason the Lucian Alliance is remotely a threat (and I still believe that's debatable because the writers haven't done enough to reinforce that. I've seen a lot of suppositions in this thread. But that's all they are. Suppositions. If there had been a Ba'al clone at their Icarus Base equivalent then I might have been more inclined to see the Alliance's newfound strength as being plausible) is because after all of this time the Stargate program and its many discoveries/advancements still remain a secret. It's ludicrous that they still feel that the general public wouldn't be ready for it as opposed to embracing it. People dream about this sort of thing being a reality. You'd think that they'd be pragmatic enough to realise that keeping it a secret is doing far more harm than good at this point.

They could accomplish an immense amount if the entire world was aware of it. They could have a much larger fleet along with far greater resources and manpower at their disposal. That's ignoring all of the tangible benefits to society that they possess. As far as I'm concerned the veil of secrecy is just unethical, not to mention idiotic, at this point.

[Zac Naloen]

The way I see it, the only reason the Lucian Alliance is remotely a threat (and I still believe that's debatable because the writers haven't done enough to reinforce that. I've seen a lot of suppositions in this thread. But that's all they are. Suppositions. If there had been a Ba'al clone at their Icarus Base equivalent then I might have been more inclined to see the Alliance's newfound strength as being plausible) is because after all of this time the Stargate program and its many discoveries/advancements still remain a secret. It's ludicrous that they still feel that the general public wouldn't be ready for it as opposed to embracing it. People dream about this sort of thing being a reality. You'd think that they'd be pragmatic enough to realise that keeping it a secret is doing far more harm than good at this point.

They could accomplish an immense amount if the entire world was aware of it. They could have a much larger fleet along with far greater resources and manpower at their disposal. That's ignoring all of the tangible benefits to society that they possess. As far as I'm concerned the veil of secrecy is just unethical, not to mention idiotic, at this point.

The Stargate programme has been running for just 15 years, it's implausible enough that they have the ships, technology and understanding of that technology that they do with the full resources of the world let alone with the limited resources the secrecy enforces.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I thought the Lucian Alliance was strong because they'd gotten not just ships, but they had acquired multiple intact goa'uld shipyards after the war.

Also, are the Tok'ra even around anymore? I thought they got wiped out like the Tollan.

[JME2]

We know that some Tok'ra survived the Tau'ri-Goa'uld War and the Ori Crusade. Remember, they set up a new city on the world where Ba'al's execution took place in Stargate: Continuum. They probably don't have the resources to build their own fleet, though.

It's the question of the Jaffa Nation's status in all of this that I find interesting. The Ori Crusade did serious damage, but we know as of the second DTV that they're still in business. They might not have the resources to deal with them right now as they're focused on rebuilding.

[xt828]

Could I just say that I stopped watching Stargate around the time they brought Dr Jackson back from magical fairy land or whatever the fuck, and I'm really enjoying SGU. I was a bit worried with DJ's vision sequence last episode, but this one was back onto the stronger suits of the show, and the addition of the Lucian Alliance people to the cast will only make for more interesting stuff.

[JME2]

Speaking of the Lucians, does anyone else have a feeling that...
Spoiler

...one of them may have a snake in the head?

The System Lords are long gone, but there were still minor Goa'uld who escaped after Dakara. Athena is also still unaccounted for and the Trust's storyline was never really wrapped up. I can see one of them infiltrating the Lucian Alliance and manipulating them into researching the 9th Chevron in a hope to restore the Goa'uld's fortunes and power.

It could be a spiritual sequel to SGA's "Critical Mass" and the hunt for the snake without simply retreating on SG-1 plots.

[Zac Naloen]

Speaking of the Lucians, does anyone else have a feeling that...
Spoiler

...one of them may have a snake in the head?

The System Lords are long gone, but there were still minor Goa'uld who escaped after Dakara. Athena is also still unaccounted for and the Trust's storyline was never really wrapped up. I can see one of them infiltrating the Lucian Alliance and manipulating them into researching the 9th Chevron in a hope to restore the Goa'uld's fortunes and power.

It could be a spiritual sequel to SGA's "Critical Mass" and the hunt for the snake without simply retreating on SG-1 plots.

Someone asked that question on Mallozzi's blog, the response was quite simply "Definitely not"

[JME2]

Well, the door's open if they want to do it.

But speaking of returning foes...
Spoiler

...I was rewatching the Season 2 trailer and took another look at the brief fleet battle. Unless I'm mistaken, the attacking ships match those used by the Blue Man Group. I've got a feeling we haven't seen the last of them...

[NecronLord]

It always bears mentioning, but an upgraded 304 does not represent what the Asgard were capable of. There's no evidence whatsoever that even an Asgard science ship wouldn't tear them a new one. Yes, they have key elements of Asgard tech; but they do not have the power generators, FTL, shields, sensors, and probably dozens of other key technologies at least. There's no reason to think that a single O'Neill class wouldn't "roflstomp" the entire Earth fleet inside of a minute.

Clinging to the idea that the Lucian Alliance, a group with the resources of dozens of worlds at least, can't beat Asgard trinkets which are bolted to something made in secret by one government on a planet that doesn't even have fusion on its own is a bit strange.

Yes, I'm aware of how hilariously 304s have gotten away with crap (surviving combat with an entire fleet of Auroras when it's made clear later on that a single drone could cripple a 304 if it hit the right spot) but there's no reason to think the Lucians can't do as well or better.

For all we know the cash-strapped Ori-Galaxy government sold them copies of the 'Ascended Being Superior Knowledge Handbook' as the tithes aren't flowing any more. Or yes, Col Telford could have just walked into a 304 core room and said "Thor, please give me data-crystals containing all the knowledge of the Asgard," and then handed it over to his brainwashers. And it might be that the Lucians will be launching a fleet of O'Neills to take Earth by now.

We really know nothing about them except that the "Homeworld Security" generals consider them a serious threat, and presumably have more information than we the audience do.

[Sarevok]

The humans from Earth went from nobodies to intergalactic superpower in less than a decade. Why cant the Lucians do the same ? They would be like a dark mirror to the path Earth took.

[Adrian McNair]

The Stargate programme has been running for just 15 years, it's implausible enough that they have the ships, technology and understanding of that technology that they do with the full resources of the world let alone with the limited resources the secrecy enforces.

How does this contradict what I've said? It only reinforces the fact that there is no logical reason at this point for disclosure not to take place. The writers' annoying adherence to the status quo is the only reason it hasn't happened.

Screw the wishy-washy bullshit about people not being ready. The IOA is just too spineless to make it happen. The SGC has made immense technological strides that should be shared with the rest of the planet. They have the firepower to handle Ha'taks (as they clearly decimated the technologically superior Asuran vessels during Atlantis fourth season). The only issue at this point is one of fleet strength and overall manpower, nothing more. I don't believe that it's unreasonable to say that a post-disclosure Earth could defeat the Lucian Alliance within a year.