St Culture Survival

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-02-23 02:30pm

The thread about which ST race would last the longest against the Empire got me thinking...

The Milkyway is invaded and occupied by the Empire. Which race's individual culture would survive the longest within the Empire, up against what would be overwhelming Imperial pop culture and pressure to conform. The Empire wouldn't put up with any of the distinct society bullshit that we have to deal with here in Canada from Quebec.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-23 03:30pm

Mark S wrote:The thread about which ST race would last the longest against the Empire got me thinking...

The Milkyway is invaded and occupied by the Empire. Which race's individual culture would survive the longest within the Empire, up against what would be overwhelming Imperial pop culture and pressure to conform. The Empire wouldn't put up with any of the distinct society bullshit that we have to deal with here in Canada from Quebec.

The Cardassians might collaborate with the Empire so it's possible they might remain autonomous for some time.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-23 03:45pm

Considering that the ideals of freedom, justice, etc have inspired a rebellion that has lasted since teh brith of the EMpire, I think that Federation culture would last the longest. The Romulans and Cardasians are just pussified versions of the ERmpire and will quickly be absorbed. The Federation will have lasting power.

Dr. Bashir predicted that if occupied the Federation would survive for centuries under Dominion occupation, a culture close to the Imperial way of thinking and diametrically opposed to teh Federation culture.

That's my guess.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-23 03:53pm

Stravo wrote:Considering that the ideals of freedom, justice, etc have inspired a rebellion that has lasted since teh brith of the EMpire, I think that Federation culture would last the longest. The Romulans and Cardasians are just pussified versions of the ERmpire and will quickly be absorbed. The Federation will have lasting power.

Dr. Bashir predicted that if occupied the Federation would survive for centuries under Dominion occupation, a culture close to the Imperial way of thinking and diametrically opposed to teh Federation culture.

That's my guess.

I'd say once the commie-authorities of the federation have been removed people will quickly learn to admire the advantadges of life in the Empire.
It's not as if the Empire intends to enslave the Fed citizens the way the Dominion would.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 04:17pm

We should keep in mind that many people in the Empire liked it. Many star systems voluntarily went over to the Empire in VOTF, and IIRC, stayed there even after discovering that the reborn Thrawn was a fraud. Biggs even said in the ANH novelization that the Empire was a glorious thing once, although he'd become recently disillusioned with it.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-23 04:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:We should keep in mind that many people in the Empire liked it. Many star systems voluntarily went over to the Empire in VOTF, and IIRC, stayed there even after discovering that the reborn Thrawn was a fraud. Biggs even said in the ANH novelization that the Empire was a glorious thing once, although he'd become recently disillusioned with it.

Except for the whole, blowing up worlds and killing people, what other stuff did the Empire do to make it really oppressive and evil?

Was it ever really mentioned, or was it just assumed?

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-02-23 04:44pm

neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:We should keep in mind that many people in the Empire liked it. Many star systems voluntarily went over to the Empire in VOTF, and IIRC, stayed there even after discovering that the reborn Thrawn was a fraud. Biggs even said in the ANH novelization that the Empire was a glorious thing once, although he'd become recently disillusioned with it.
Except for the whole, blowing up worlds and killing people, what other stuff did the Empire do to make it really oppressive and evil?

Was it ever really mentioned, or was it just assumed?

Dissolved the Senate, taking power from the masses and giving it directly to Regional Governors.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2003-02-23 05:50pm

Mark S wrote:
neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:We should keep in mind that many people in the Empire liked it. Many star systems voluntarily went over to the Empire in VOTF, and IIRC, stayed there even after discovering that the reborn Thrawn was a fraud. Biggs even said in the ANH novelization that the Empire was a glorious thing once, although he'd become recently disillusioned with it.
Except for the whole, blowing up worlds and killing people, what other stuff did the Empire do to make it really oppressive and evil?

Was it ever really mentioned, or was it just assumed?
Dissolved the Senate, taking power from the masses and giving it directly to Regional Governors.

Is that a bad thing?

The Empire created stability and ended the burocuracys of the Republic.

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2003-02-23 06:23pm

lets try and keep it on topic.. shall we?

anyways, i for one think the feddies will get absorbed fairly quickly. theyre too much of mindless drones anyways.

now, altho the Klingons may admire the Empire, IMO i believe they may actually last longest because of their very strong belief in their heritage etc.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 06:53pm

Mark S wrote:
neoolong wrote:Except for the whole, blowing up worlds and killing people, what other stuff did the Empire do to make it really oppressive and evil?

Was it ever really mentioned, or was it just assumed?
Dissolved the Senate, taking power from the masses and giving it directly to Regional Governors.

The masses never had power before; the Republic was a corrupt shambles in which the common people had no voice. Look at how the political elite elected a new Supreme Chancellor by themselves, with no popular vote!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 06:55pm

meNNis wrote:lets try and keep it on topic.. shall we?

anyways, i for one think the feddies will get absorbed fairly quickly. theyre too much of mindless drones anyways.

Communism cannot stand cultural pollution. At the beginning of TNG there is absolute certainty about the moral superiority of the Federation's lifestyle and civilization, but by the end of DS9, Ferengi influence has grown to the point that we already see cracks in the wall. Even the son of an influential leading Federation citizen pines for money and tries to beg it off a Ferengi friend.

now, altho the Klingons may admire the Empire, IMO i believe they may actually last longest because of their very strong belief in their heritage etc.

Assuming we're talking about AQ powers, I'd say the Ferengi culture is definitely the one that will last the longest, and do the best.

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2003-02-23 07:39pm

*snip*

Darth Wong wrote:Assuming we're talking about AQ powers, I'd say the Ferengi culture is definitely the one that will last the longest, and do the best.

you know, i didnt think about the Ferengi, they would almost certainly be able to stand it too

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-23 08:03pm

the ferengi will probably actually last the shortest, but only as an empire. theyll spread into the empire and take to the capitalist empire and its great technology and sell various old technologies to milky way powers, probably the ones not in the AQ, and only if the empire lets them. but i think the ferengi would greet assimilation into the Empire as a good thing. besides, the empire isnt gonna kill its own citizens during a war against the AQ!

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2003-02-23 09:08pm

Stravo wrote:Considering that the ideals of freedom, justice, etc have inspired a rebellion that has lasted since teh brith of the EMpire, I think that Federation culture would last the longest. The Romulans and Cardasians are just pussified versions of the ERmpire and will quickly be absorbed. The Federation will have lasting power.

Dr. Bashir predicted that if occupied the Federation would survive for centuries under Dominion occupation, a culture close to the Imperial way of thinking and diametrically opposed to teh Federation culture.

That's my guess.

I think the Feds culture would last the **shortest**. Remember how soon the Russia converted to western/capitalist culture following the downfall of the communist regime?

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2003-02-24 01:41am

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:I think the Feds culture would last the **shortest**. Remember how soon the Russia converted to western/capitalist culture following the downfall of the communist regime?

exactly my thoughts

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2003-02-24 02:45am

kojikun wrote:the ferengi will probably actually last the shortest, but only as an empire. theyll spread into the empire and take to the capitalist empire and its great technology and sell various old technologies to milky way powers, probably the ones not in the AQ, and only if the empire lets them. but i think the ferengi would greet assimilation into the Empire as a good thing. besides, the empire isnt gonna kill its own citizens during a war against the AQ!

I agree but for a differant reason. By the end of DS9 we see that the Ferengi State is changing with massive social reforms. They're having massive ecological problems. Also Rom is being made Grand Nagus and he's not the sharpest bar in the latinum pile.

I can see Ferenginarr's goverment colapsing under the strain of trying to clean the enviroment and maintain the social reforms. The Empire moves in and restores it, placing someone malleable(bribable) in Rom's place. Especially when you considder the average Ferengi's responce to the changes so far.

Of the Ferengi we see:
Grand Nagus: old, senile?, puppet of his wife
'Mogie': driving force behind the reforms
Rom: moron, also easily influenced by 'Mogie'
Nog: Joined starfleet, wasn't consulted
Quark: Outraged, belives the broad sweeping changes will destroy their society making them just like the federation, removing all the traits that made the Ferengi great.
Brunt the liquidator (ie: 'assassin'):to busy sucking up but seemed to agree with Quark more than just that

As a empire they'll fall, but individuals like Quark will risk everything they have to get in on trade in the Empire, within 10 years they'll rival everyone except the Hutts (Hutt 1000yr lifespan gives them an edge.)

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-02-24 05:09am

Ferengis lack the backbone to do business w/ Sw races. The hutts would bait the Ferengis, lure them into an agreement, and crush them utterly. I bet a Hutt Mercenary army could wipe Ferenginar clean in no time.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2003-02-24 05:28am

if they surrendered to the empire I doubt the hutts will do jack to them. And as for backbone, remember the first ferengi we see are not as cowardly as many we see later, so some of them have more spine than others.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-02-24 06:33am

A few deviant Ferengi does not a powerful culture make. And even if the Ferengi sign on as an Imperial territory, by peaceful or foreceful means, they are not important enough to the Empire to ensure a presence that would keep the Hutts out. Tehnically, Nal Hutta was an Imperial planet and boy that really curbed their smuggling biz didn't it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 10:44am

That doesn't mean their culture would be wiped out. It is most compatible with the SW business culture, so it would last the longest. The shortest-lived cultures would be the Feds (communism does not survive outside influences well) and the Romulans (the Empire won't let them keep their haughty notions of Romulan racial superiority for long).

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-02-24 03:26pm

besides, the empire isnt gonna kill its own citizens during a war against the AQ!

Never underestimate the potential propaganda value of "rounding up AQ sympathizers and spies." ; )

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-02-24 03:27pm

Also, the Breen might have some temporary success passing themselves off as the famous Bounty Hunter, Boush.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-24 05:44pm

Don't know if this group would count, but the one that would endure the longest is the microscopic aliens from "Home Soil" and other assorted "sentient" microbes. They live on a worthless dirtball that won't even be noticed until the Empire starts sending in civilian colonists; IOW, after everyone else has already gotten their asses thoroughly kicked.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-02-24 06:09pm

Darth Servo wrote:Don't know if this group would count, but the one that would endure the longest is the microscopic aliens from "Home Soil" and other assorted "sentient" microbes. They live on a worthless dirtball that won't even be noticed until the Empire starts sending in civilian colonists; IOW, after everyone else has already gotten their asses thoroughly kicked.

Or the Horta for that matter. They have very little in common with humanoid beings and may go unnoticed for a while, happily eating their rocks. But the thread is more about races that have been incorporated into the empire. How long will there values and traditions last.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-24 08:25pm

I think that it would be expeditious to begin by listing cultures that would NOT survive in their current state from ST, and then determine what is left.

Clearly the Klingon culture would be totally destroyed by their ineffectiveness in combat against the Empire, and by the occupation of the home territories.

Romulan culture would only survive as a shadow of its former self, and would be substantially modified to become more compatible with the Empire. The Romulan's apparent tact at manipulation and intrigue would be valuable skills in a new Empire in the Milky Way, but would ultimately fail at the preservation of such things as the Tal Shiar and the Republican form of government. Parts of Romulan culture would obviously survive, such as the slavery observed on Remus in "Nemesis," however the core of Romulan culture which is based around Romulan superiority would be shattered. Thus, while Romulan culture would be easily adapted to survive in the Empire, it would have to be modified to the point at which I would consider it to be a new culture, instead of an adapted old one.

The UFP's cultural survival would be highly questionable, and would likely be stamped out quickly. Their economic and social system is COMPLETELY incompatible with that of the segregationist and capitalist Empire, and though the SPECIES that make up the UFP may survive, their cultures would all be dramatically changed. Even the highly logical Vulcans would be forced to change, as the Empire's value of intuition and emotion would be incompatible. In a more general sense, the segregationism of the Empire would preclude the UFP's ability to adapt their apparently integrated society to Imperial control.

Cardassian cultural survival is dubious. I don't know enough about Cardassian culture to tell for sure, but from what I have seen it is very difficult for Cardassians to live with rule from outside forces, and their culture probably could not bear the shame of complete military destruction. Since Cardassia appears to be highly nationalistic, I very much doubt that their current beliefs would be adaptible to Imperial control. Other parts of the Cardassian culture would be readily adapted to the Imperial system. Power is fairly concentrated in the hands of a few, and the existing power structure would be very compatible with the Imperial system in that government officials like Guls wield not only civil but also military power (ie. Grand Moff Tarkin, Moff Jerjerod). The intrigue that is quite obviously prevalent in Cardassian court would be little changed by an Imperial system, although the actual individuals involved would probably change significantly.

JH/Dominion culture would be altered, but it is difficult to tell how much it would be affected. I think that of these cultures, it would face the least hurdles in adjusting to Imperial rule. Since the Dominion is ALREADY a quasi-dictatorship, with almost absolute power in the "hands" of the Founders, and since their militaristic society is fairly similar with that of the Empire, I believe that in the case of Imperial control the Force and beings who wielded it would simply replace the Founders as the highest caste in the carefully established Dominion hierarchy.

The counter-point to this is a question of what JH/Dominion culture is, if it is not the worship of the Founders. As Weyoun explained, Vorta have no art, and there is no evidence to suggest that the JH would, either, as it serves no real purpose for such a race. The JH appear to be bred only for war, and the Vorta bred only as officers and agents. They are only bound by an intense loyalty to the Founders (although much of this is linked to Ketracel White, in the case of the JH).

Thus, while the Dominion culture would have very little ground to move across in its adaptation to Imperial control, it has NO culture outside of its current quasi-religious reverence of the Founders. It is, thus, debatable as to whether or not their conversion would be a true conversion, an adaptation, or a destruction and replacement of the culture that exists. The question is not WHAT would change in the Dominion, but how important this change would be.

Borg society would quite obviously cease to exist without the Collective.

Thus we see that, out of the major races in ST, all would have to endure adjustment to Imperial rule. The two least affected would be the Dominion and the Romulans, and the most heavily affected would be the UFP, the Borg, and the Klingons, with the Cardassians somewhere in the middle.

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