Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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ISRAEL'S mainly right wing government has voted overwhelming in favour of legislation requiring non-Jewish new citizens to swear allegiance to the country as a Jewish state.

The 30-member coalition cabinet on Sunday endorsed a draft amendment by 22 votes to eight, a statement from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said. It has still to be approved by parliament before becoming law.

"The cabinet a short time ago approved an amendment to the Citizenship Act regarding the pledge of allegiance to the state of Israel," it said.

"According to the amendment... 'Jewish and democratic state' will be added at the end of the pledge of allegiance."

Israeli media said all five ministers from the left-leaning Labour party voted against the proposal, as did three members of Mr Netanyahu's own Likud.

The controversial amendment had been toned down from an original proposal by the ultra-nationalist Yisrael Beitenu party of Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, which would have required even Arabs born in Israel to make the pledge and promise to serve in the military or perform other national service.

But it has still been slammed as inflammatory and racist by the country's Arab minority, and one Labour minister said on Sunday ahead of the vote that it took the country to "the edge of a chasm".

"There is a whiff of fascism on the margins of Israeli society," Social Affairs Minister Isaac Herzog told army radio.
"The overall picture is very disturbing and threatens the democratic character of the state of Israel."
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This just continues the the trend of Israel acting like cocks and isolating themselves further.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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In their position, isn't it understandable? People keep trying to wipe them off the map.

This isn't like other instances of ethnic discrimination, like, say, the German government aiming to murder all the Jews. Because in this case, the ethnic group being targeted actually does include a large number of members who want to destroy Israel.

It's easy for us in Europe and America to condemn the Israeli attitude; no one is blowing up OUR nightclubs and cafes.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Stark wrote:Are you saying loyalty oaths act to reduce terrorism, instead of enabling nationalism or racism?
I am not speaking as to the results of this new bit of legislature; but to it's source. The reason it's being passed is because the Israeli population believes a loyalty oath will reduce acts of terrorism- presumably through the mechanism of making it difficult for people who both take oaths seriously and intend on destroying the Israeli state and people to become citizens.

And nationalism is a fine thing indeed. Israel relies on having a loyal population to survive; and nationalism furthers that goal. The Israelis would never have succeeded in fending off the numerous, brutal attempts to exterminate them without a sense of nationalism.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Stark wrote:Are you saying that Israelis think ev0l terrorists are unable to lie? :lol:
I thought my post was clear, but apparently you need a little help.
presumably through the mechanism of making it difficult for people who both take oaths seriously and intend on destroying the Israeli state and people to become citizens.
It's perfectly obvious that I stated that Israelis believe that some terrorists don't lie. Not all of them. But I suppose adopting an superior tone is more fun than actually trying to read someone's post and craft a coherent response. I hope you enjoyed the autofellatio!
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Thirdfain wrote:
Stark wrote:Are you saying loyalty oaths act to reduce terrorism, instead of enabling nationalism or racism?
I am not speaking as to the results of this new bit of legislature; but to it's source. The reason it's being passed is because the Israeli population believes a loyalty oath will reduce acts of terrorism- presumably through the mechanism of making it difficult for people who both take oaths seriously and intend on destroying the Israeli state and people to become citizens.

And nationalism is a fine thing indeed. Israel relies on having a loyal population to survive; and nationalism furthers that goal. The Israelis would never have succeeded in fending off the numerous, brutal attempts to exterminate them without a sense of nationalism.
Nationalism is a fine thing? So were the Know-Nothings and other anti-immigrant groups good things as well?
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

Post by Stark »

So you agree that it's essentially totally useless, and will do nothing but excarberate ethnic tensions in the region? Amusingly, it arguably makes terrorism EASIER, because now people can say 'I swore the oath every day for years, I am loyal' as a defence!

I guess this is that whole 'nationalism is good' attitude I hear about.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Thirdfain wrote:I am not speaking as to the results of this new bit of legislature; but to it's source. The reason it's being passed is because the Israeli population believes a loyalty oath will reduce acts of terrorism- presumably through the mechanism of making it difficult for people who both take oaths seriously and intend on destroying the Israeli state and people to become citizens.

And nationalism is a fine thing indeed. Israel relies on having a loyal population to survive; and nationalism furthers that goal. The Israelis would never have succeeded in fending off the numerous, brutal attempts to exterminate them without a sense of nationalism.
Except that this isn't loyalty to the state of Israel, this is loyalty to it explicitly as a Jewish state. You don't see how non-Jewish citizens of the country would have a problem with that? Only 3/4ths of the country is Jewish and much less than that are the sort of nationalists who care about the state being For Jews Only, and that's Israel proper, excluding the Occupied territories. Deliberately making a loyalty oath that specifically defines 1/4th of the country as lesser in status is a shitty thing and is political theatre on the part of the Right Wing Government.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Aren't they effectively saying "You will never be a part of this state, you will always be second-class citizens" to the non-Jewish minority? Surely those parts of the Muslim community which have been trying to work with and through the Israeli system would have to take this as a slap in the face, the outright denial that a non-Jew can be considered a part of the Israeli state.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Does having to swear allegiance to Queen Elizabeth II to become a Canadian citizen disenfranchise republicans and make them second-class citizens? And just about every country in the world requires naturalized citizens to speak the official/dominant language and have an appreciation for the history and culture of the dominant ethnicity. They may not say "and you must swear allegiance to France as a French state" (for example) but the preservation of an existing national identity is implicit in the naturalization laws of nearly every state in the world. Israel stands out due to the ambiguous nature of Jewishness but if we accept that the Jews are a discrete national ethnicity (as they were so treated by the Nazis, which is a big part of the weirdness and cause for the existence of Israel in the first place) it would follow in the same way that French ethnicity informs and defines the nature of France.

And one can substitute "German ethnicity defines the nature of Germany," or "Han ethnicity defines the nature of China," and so on, for any true nation-state. Even more diverse countries like the United States or India or Argentina, which lack a single dominant ethnicity, usually do have a discrete national identity that is implicitly preserved by state structures and naturalization laws.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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The day that "Jewish" takes on the meaning "citizen of Israel", you might have a point. Of the countries you mentioned with a dominant ethnicity, only one (China) has a major ethnic group which does not take on the name of the country. Interestingly enough, China does not and likely has no intentions of forcing naturalised citizens to swear loyalty to the Han, because such loyalty should already be implicit in any oath of loyalty to the country.

While one can apply for membership to a nationality, one cannot usually apply for membership to an ethnicity, which makes the Israeli situation somewhat different from the examples of "national identity" that you quoted.

As an interesting thought experiment, consider this: Christians make up a greater proportion of the US population than Jews do in Israel. Should it then be considered appropriate for citizens of the USA to swear loyalty to the US as a "Christian State"? 70% of Spaniards are Catholic. Should everyone in Spain swear loyalty to Spain as a "Catholic State"?
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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There is a rather big difference. You don't have to be ethnically French to be French and nor ethnically German to be German. In fact, the French constitution explicitly states that they are a democracy unlimited by race, sex, and national origin. France is not explicitly for ethnically French people, but rather the culture.

The equivalence of this for Israel is to be Israeli, not Jewish. Conceivably, being Israeli is not limited by religion and is attainable, just as becoming a French citizen is. Indeed, their are Israeli Arabs, Christians, Druze, athiests, et cetera. Being Jewish, however, is not. By defining Israel as a Jewish state, rather than a secular Israeli one, they are automatically excluding 1/4th of their country out of hand, despite their legal citizenship, because they aren't Jews. Despite Israeli Arabs et al being citizen, this loyalty oath makes them secondary to Jews within the state. A German citizen who is not ethnically German doesn't have that on him.

This is why people rightly should have a problem with this loyalty oath. Why should anyone have to declare that their state which they are citizens of belongs to someone else's religion? They can never BE Jews, yet they are being asked to declare that Israel belongs to Judaism?
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Well, Jewish does mean citizen of Israel in so far as all Jews are eligible for Israeli citizenship. The definition of Jewish in that case being on the basis of descent and not professing religion. That particular weirdness is, of course, a legacy of the Holocaust. Divorcing the situation in which Israel was created as a self-identified Jewish state from the historical context reduces the issue to an abstraction. Which I will proceed to do.

Though the last time we went over this it went nowhere. I'm not that interested in defending Israel, but the point raises an issue about the nature of the nation-state whose implications are fascinating to me.

Be that as it may, France and China do not define their national identity by religion. They do define it quite rigidly and are capable of repression and even outright brutality against minorities that threaten their sense of nationhood. Furthermore lots of countries do use religion to define their sense of national identity, so Israel is just one of dozens of countries that formally make religious minorities "second class citizens." And of course other countries have established churches or do conflate religion with their national identity as implicit rather than explicit. Even taking the secular countries it is a quality of the existence of the nation-state that it preserves nationality; which is to say ethnicity. A black man originally from Senegal can be a Frenchman, but he must speak French, venerate the French intellectual canon, and be devoted to the interests of France above any other allegiance, and must not in any sense challenge the prevailing ideas of what it is to be French. There is no place in French society for a large mass of immigrants who (for example) want to speak Arabic (or Breton or Occitan) as an officially sanctioned language, ostentatiously celebrate a "nontraditional" religion like Islam, reject the likes of Proust and Moliere, question the established historical narrative, and seek to bring their own cultural practices into mainstream life.

The criticism of Israel seems to be that the religious requirement means that people can't assimilate without changing religion. But in fact the naturalized citizen is always a petitioner, one who seeks to gain civic rights in a nation by subsuming his native language and culture. The petitioner does not demand that his culture and attitudes and language be respected, much less given a place of equality, but rather abandons that which is not compatible with his new home. Israel does not require naturalized citizens to abandon their religion to become citizens, it is important to note, but does define Jewishness as an essential part of national identity. Is it sufficient to just abandon religion as an aspect of national identity to make it reasonable and just? Or is the very concept of a state formed on the nation an anachronism that has outlived its usefulness? But like a secular Israel, the ideas for the replacement for nation-states seems unlikely and impractical, largely undesired and devoid of emotional force for the people who would actually be impacted by it.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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MarshalPurnell wrote:Well, Jewish does mean citizen of Israel in so far as all Jews are eligible for Israeli citizenship. The definition of Jewish in that case being on the basis of descent and not professing religion. That particular weirdness is, of course, a legacy of the Holocaust. Divorcing the situation in which Israel was created as a self-identified Jewish state from the historical context reduces the issue to an abstraction. Which I will proceed to do.
So, all Jews are (potential) Israelis. However, it does not follow from this that all Israelis are Jews, or potential Jews. By making people swear loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state, they are effectively declaring that the non-Jewish Israelis are less important to the state than the Jewish Israelis.

As for the holocaust card, you would think that people who were so butthurt about what Germany did after they defined Germany as an Aryan nation would have a bit more sympathy to other ethnicities who are concerned that defining a nation to be purely identified with a single ethnic group may lead to a further loss of minority rights at a later date.
Be that as it may, France and China do not define their national identity by religion. They do define it quite rigidly and are capable of repression and even outright brutality against minorities that threaten their sense of nationhood.
I'm not entirely sure how things like China not wanting to give Tibet independence because they consider Tibetans to be every bit as Chinese as Han has anything to do with members of the Israeli government trying to define Jews as a more important ethnic group than other ethnic groups in Israel, but whatever.
Furthermore lots of countries do use religion to define their sense of national identity, so Israel is just one of dozens of countries that formally make religious minorities "second class citizens." And of course other countries have established churches or do conflate religion with their national identity as implicit rather than explicit. Even taking the secular countries it is a quality of the existence of the nation-state that it preserves nationality; which is to say ethnicity. A black man originally from Senegal can be a Frenchman, but he must speak French, venerate the French intellectual canon, and be devoted to the interests of France above any other allegiance, and must not in any sense challenge the prevailing ideas of what it is to be French. There is no place in French society for a large mass of immigrants who (for example) want to speak Arabic (or Breton or Occitan) as an officially sanctioned language, ostentatiously celebrate a "nontraditional" religion like Islam, reject the likes of Proust and Moliere, question the established historical narrative, and seek to bring their own cultural practices into mainstream life.
You know, if other countries do it, then it's wrong. Israel just happens to be making news because their social policy is now more wrong than it was before. That's why this is in the news and the Iranian treatment of non-Muslims isn't. Israel's legislation is new, so it's in the NEWs, Iran's is old, so it's not. Going on about how "other countries do it to" is like saying that America's economy isn't in trouble, because Spain is having problems too.
The criticism of Israel seems to be that the religious requirement means that people can't assimilate without changing religion.
Actually, my criticism of Israel in this case is because the ethnic requirement means that people can't assimilate without changing ethnicities. I would a religious requirement much less distasteful, because someone can at least change their religion.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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"I pledge allegiance to the idea that Jews will always be the numerically dominant ethnicity and the most influential majority in politics and culture." Is that what Israel's looking for from its citizens?
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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See, but you just outlined the big difference.

Your guy from Senegal can speak French and support France above all as a country and be French. Legally and otherwise, he's as French as anyone, though I think you are exaggerating how much the French are required to venerate their own authors. I've got an actual guy from France as one of my students this semester and I'll bet you 10 Euro that he can name more Premiere League Football players than he can classic French authors, but he's no less French. However, the point is that the guy from Senegal can meet those requirements. Given that it is expressed in their very constitution that France sees no distinction based on race, national origin, or sex (however the practice may fall, particularly to North Africans), the lengths France goes to protect French culture is not an extension of protecting the French race.

Example: my PI is from Switzerland, specifically Zurich, by way of an Italian father and a Swiss German mother. Like many Swiss, his "ethnicity" is kind of a wild card, since the nation of the Swiss Confederation is made up of all sorts of ethnicities complete with a part where you'll hear French more often than not (Romandie), Swiss German in other places, Italian in the region of Ticino, et cetera. Clearly, the policies of the Swiss Confederation aren't a protection of any ethnicity, despite being a completely whole nation. And again, someone from another country conceivably could go to Switzerland and become a Swiss citizen, same as any.

That is not true of being Jewish. Conservative Jews, like the ones who made the policy, expressly DON'T think that someone who isn't born into it can ever BECOME Jewish. Your guy from Senegal can work to become Israeli, but he can never become Jewish in the eyes of these people no matter how knowledgeable he becomes. That's the difference right there as to why baking Judaism as an express part of the Israeli national identity is different from France, because being "French" is achievable while being Jewish is not. Those Israeli Arabs that are ticked about this can NEVER have part of that national identity and thus by your definition can never be fully Israeli, if Jewishness is a component of being Israeli. Of course, I'm sure that's what these guys who made this policy have in mind, because I'm sure they don't consider Israeli Arabs to really be Israeli either. That makes this a bad policy; they should be swearing loyalty to the nation of Israel, not to a Jewish state called Israel, something a 1/4th of their citizens and growing can't be apart of.

Look, Israel doesn't have the most messed up policies of all Developed Countries (I think Japan has them beat backwards and forwards), but that doesn't make their policies on the matter good. National identity, if such a thing truly exists, should encompass as many citizens as possible. If Judaism is an integral part of Israels national identity, then they fail in that.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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I find it interesting how actual citizens of Israel or the Israel defenders will react to this. A common defence to critics of Israel's expansionism has been to say "But Israel is open to all religions and ethnicities and Israeli citizens get the same rights no matter their religion".

I wonder what they will say to this development.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Thirdfain wrote:And nationalism is a fine thing indeed. Israel relies on having a loyal population to survive; and nationalism furthers that goal. The Israelis would never have succeeded in fending off the numerous, brutal attempts to exterminate them without a sense of nationalism.
Numerous brutal attempts to exterminate? Please provide evidence that the Arab-Israeli wars, any of them, had the goal of "brutally exterminating" Israel.

It's okay to be a Nazi good patriotic nationalist when you're surrounded, right?
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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This is dangerously close to veering into IvP territory. So just a remainder that the moratorium is still intact.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Thirdfain wrote:The reason it's being passed is because the Israeli population believes
Which part of the Israeli population is that, the Jews or the non-Jews? Israelis are more than the former, you know. As for who's blowing up night-clubs
and want to destroy Israel, is that also a part of the Israeli population or someone else? Because again, Israeli citizens are not Jews alone. If the threat is from outside, the pledge is pointless. If the threat is from inside, is the pledge meant to target non-Jewish citizens? If so, then it is racist, as it presumes non-Jewish citizens (20 %) are automatically hostile to the Jewish citizens and must be kept in check.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Thanas wrote:I find it interesting how actual citizens of Israel or the Israel defenders will react to this. A common defence to critics of Israel's expansionism has been to say "But Israel is open to all religions and ethnicities and Israeli citizens get the same rights no matter their religion".

I wonder what they will say to this development.
I have yet to find an Israeli, even a right winger, who thinks this makes sense. But rather obviously, I know mostly young people who are somewhat closer to sanity. Furthermore, this is widely expected to be struck down by the courts here, who are consistently against such laws.

Currently, this piece of legislation has gone back to the drafting board over strong opposition by many members of the cabinet. This entire proposal is being put forward as part of a coalition agreement with Yisrael Beiteinu, a facist right wing party. Many prominent members of the Likud (the governing party) are against this legislation. Labour, one of the key partners in the coalition, is against this proposal and has stated it's support would be given only if this was added to also cover Jews, or optionally, include the words "..in the spirit of the declaration of independence." Which (as is the core problem) provides for a Jewish, democratic, equal rights to all state. Which is far more acceptable, because this just means "go swear an oath that you agree to the principle by which this country was founded."

Something that bears mentioning, this is not approved. As far as I know, the article quoted in the OP is misleading. What has happened is that the government has affirmed by vote of cabinet its intention to submit to the Knesset (parliament) this amendment. The chance of this piece of legislation passing the Knesset is rather low.

VT-16, this legislation is only for new citizens. To my understanding, this has no bearing on current citizens.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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Kudos to the Israeli government for once again taking an idiotic step which will A) further tarnish Israel's image and B) will almost certainly be struck down if it makes it into law in the first place (which is unlikely). All that is par for the course, but for extra points, I can't see what it's trying to accomplish even for the POV of it's proponents - AFAIK the overwhelming majority of naturalized immigrants in Israel are Jewish in the first place, it's not like there's a large influx of Muslim (or other non-Jewish) immigrants.
Gil Hamilton wrote:That is not true of being Jewish. Conservative Jews, like the ones who made the policy, expressly DON'T think that someone who isn't born into it can ever BECOME Jewish. Your guy from Senegal can work to become Israeli, but he can never become Jewish in the eyes of these people no matter how knowledgeable he becomes.
The thing is, that such Conservative Jews would accept a convert, though they might disagree on the standard of conversion. That's something of a red herring, though, because "Jew" in this context refers to Jews as an ethnicity, not as a religion; atheist Jews are considered part of the Israeli Jewish population, after all.

Case in point - Israel Beitenu, the party behind this bill, while strongly right wing, is not a religious party. In fact,, part of the reason for its strong showing in the last elections was the promise (which they haven't made good on so far) to legislate the so-called civil union law to break the religious stranglehold on marriage.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

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eyl wrote:The thing is, that such Conservative Jews would accept a convert, though they might disagree on the standard of conversion. That's something of a red herring, though, because "Jew" in this context refers to Jews as an ethnicity, not as a religion; atheist Jews are considered part of the Israeli Jewish population, after all.
That certainly demonstrates my point, since Marshall's guy from Senegal definitely can't change his ethnicity to be Jewish.
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Re: Israel approves controversial loyalty oath

Post by eyl »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
eyl wrote:The thing is, that such Conservative Jews would accept a convert, though they might disagree on the standard of conversion. That's something of a red herring, though, because "Jew" in this context refers to Jews as an ethnicity, not as a religion; atheist Jews are considered part of the Israeli Jewish population, after all.
That certainly demonstrates my point, since Marshall's guy from Senegal definitely can't change his ethnicity to be Jewish.
What I'm trying to get across is that "Jew", as used in this context, is a mix between an ethicity and a religion - you can be a Jew by birth, and remain so whether or not you follow the eligion; alternatively, you can convert into the religion, at which point you automatically become part of the Jewish ethnic group.
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