Republican candidate criticised for wearing Nazi uniform

[Zed]

It has nothing to do with that - it was a response to what Stas Bush said.

[open_sketchbook]

While this guy and his SS reenacting buddies are probably some form of closet neo-nazis (though most of them are probably in denial about that) I can see the arguement that painting the historical SS as monsters to the last man as being a little simplistic. I'm not denying that the SS was a terrible organization and there were a lot of monsters in their ranks, however, there were also conscripted members of the SS, of course, and from the memoirs I've read it seems most of the German people, and even much of the Heer, thought of the SS more like Americans think of the marines. I think it's more accurate to say that the SS is where the psychos and hardcore nazis gravitated and that made them useful for doing horrible things (you could trust there would be enough people following horrific orders for herd behavior to kick in), but that you also had "normal" (for the time and place) dudes who signed up for the SS over the Heer for the prestige of being in an "elite unit". I don't think the sixteen year old kids who jumped at the chance to serve with "German Heroes" were signing up to guard death camps.

Bleh. All war, even ones with clear bad guys and good guys, are filled with grey. When you get people like this guy denying that, one way or another, it's a good sign they are some form of extremist. The unit this guy is reinacting is the same one Josef Mengele served in; there isn't any way to put a positive spin on that.

[Thanas]

While this guy and his SS reenacting buddies are probably some form of closet neo-nazis (though most of them are probably in denial about that) I can see the arguement that painting the historical SS as monsters to the last man as being a little simplistic. I'm not denying that the SS was a terrible organization and there were a lot of monsters in their ranks, however, there were also conscripted members of the SS, of course, and from the memoirs I've read it seems most of the German people, and even much of the Heer, thought of the SS more like Americans think of the marines.

It highly depends. Before 1943, most army officers regarded the SS as little more than expendable thugs. This opinion also did not change much among some persons, I know my grandfather for example (who was career Wehrmacht) did not think much of the SS, describing them as ill-disciplined rabble which took too many casualties.

You have a point for the post 1943 SS, but before that, the Wehrmacht got the cream of the crop of recruits and the SS got the worst recruits (and volunteers).

Bleh. All war, even ones with clear bad guys and good guys, are filled with grey. When you get people like this guy denying that, one way or another, it's a good sign they are some form of extremist. The unit this guy is reinacting is the same one Josef Mengele served in; there isn't any way to put a positive spin on that.

There is as Mengele did serve in that unit before he did those experiments AFAIK.

[Ritterin Sophia]

And to be fair, after the war the guys in his unit who found out what he did tried to have his name stricken from the unit's list of veterans.

[Thanas]

Have you got a source for that? Because that sounds surprisingly like SS apologia. A lot of stuff that happened in WWII postwar popular histories had things like "X acted out, but he was alone and nobody approved".

OTOH, the "official" SS veteran organizations did not really sever themselves from their war criminals.

[Broomstick]

I'd like to note that during the second world war, the U.S. military and the U.S. regime were also openly racist.

Yes, but even during the war there signs that that was going to change soon. Such as when the white bomber crews demanded the Tuskegee airmen "redtails" as escorts when flying over Germany. The aircrews were able to see past their bigotry (which undeniable existed) to the extraordinary skill of the Tuskegee pilots and not only tolerated but insisted on their participation in key battles.

(Um... just in case anyone wasn't clear on the matter - the Tuskegee guys were all black. And at one point they started painting the tails of their airplanes red.)

The Nazis... I have the impression that quite a few of the Nazis would have preferred death to having their lives saved by a Jew. Maybe that's a distorted view, but I do think there were differences in the racism displayed by each side. The Nazis consistently viewed the Jews as vermin. While many of the white bomber crews wouldn't want their daughter to marry a Tuskegee pilot, in the field they did refer to them as "redtailed angels". The Nazis expelled Jews who might otherwise have been helpful to their war effort. The Americans may not have liked blacks, but they had no plans to exterminate them and were willing to acknowledge their talents, even if grudgingly at times.

If you can't see the difference you're a fucking moron.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Have you got a source for that? Because that sounds surprisingly like SS apologia. A lot of stuff that happened in WWII postwar popular histories had things like "X acted out, but he was alone and nobody approved".

OTOH, the "official" SS veteran organizations did not really sever themselves from their war criminals.

I remember reading it somewhere, but since I can't remember I'd just rather redact it since I wouldn't even know where to begin looking.

[Broomstick]

Anyhow, in regards to the OP, there's a difference between saying "I am fascinated by WWII and I do play the "bad role" in reenactments not because I support their ideology but because I'm trying to better understand how such an organization can lead ordinary people to such horrific acts, and, well, someone has to play the role of bad guy." vs. "Common SS grunt is a glorious freedom fighter! I don't agree with his ideals, but he was a glorious freedom fighter!"

The former I don't have much issue with. The latter I do.

Let's face it, the Nazis stir up some irrationality in a lot of people. My husband had a friend who was a collector of Nazi memorabilia. He'd started the hobby while following Pattern across Europe in the 1940's. I never had any reason to believe he in any way supported or approved of the Nazis - indeed, he had risked his life in opposition to them for several years - but, despite the fact that he seemed in every way an honorable, moral, ethical, and upstanding human being his hobby made me think less of him and very wary in his presence. It wasn't a rational response on my part, but yet it was there.

[Thanas]

Have you got a source for that? Because that sounds surprisingly like SS apologia. A lot of stuff that happened in WWII postwar popular histories had things like "X acted out, but he was alone and nobody approved".

OTOH, the "official" SS veteran organizations did not really sever themselves from their war criminals.

I remember reading it somewhere, but since I can't remember I'd just rather redact it since I wouldn't even know where to begin looking.

It is not that I do not believe you, I just wanted to know if you'd seen it in a respectable history or a popular one, though I admit the difference can be fleeting.

[Justice]

Uh, I do believe I know someone actually in the group (He was part of an SS reenactment group in Michigan, and this is the only group that has Pioneers, which he was supposed to be), and I never found him to be racist (or overtly so, at least). He seemed to do it because he enjoyed reenacting (he even loaned me his uniform for "I Never Saw Another Butterfly" without a problem, and he definitely saw the play). The guy's defense of the group is absolutely retarded, but I'm not sure they're neo-Nazis in disguise.

[Simon_Jester]

Hence "closet neo-Nazi." It's a problematic term because it implies that someone can be so deep in that closet that they themselves don't realize they're a Nazi.

[Patroklos]

The Mengele thing is mentioned on the division's wiki page:

The notorious Dr. Josef Mengele, served with the SS Division Wiking during its early campaigns. According to all accounts, he performed the normal duties of a combat medic, even being awarded the Iron Cross for saving two wounded men from a tank. After being wounded, Mengele was deemed unfit for combat and was absorbed into the SS Nazi concentration camp system, where he gained his infamy. Mengele was very proud of his Waffen SS service and his front-line decorations. As the true horrors of the concentration camp system came to light, his former comrades attempted to have his name removed from the division's roll of veterans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Pan ... ef_Mengele

Given that it doesn't appear he got into his infamous activities until after he left the unit, I don't see and logical reason to use those activities to slander it. Its not hard to understand why even other war criminals wouldn't want to be associated with the guy though, he was one of the worst of the worst.

As for the "closet nazi" thing its really unfounded. Its just a convienient way to say someone is something you can't prove in any way but your predisposed bias needs to be true. These guys are guilty of being giant nerds, nothing more.

I get the feeling being caught in a stormtrooper or jedi outfit would be nearly as politically damaging. NERDZ!!! People just tend to look down on those with public over the top uncoventional hobbies, maybe its just considered childish which I guess it is to a certain degree. Which is why I keep my SW addiction to myself at work

[Serafina]

*Sigh* The actions of the SS are very well documented. One of the reasons they are so well researched is that they used to be the scapegoat for all the atrocities committed by german forces during WW II. Hence, people focused on the SS and overlooked the actions of regular army units. That was also very easy to do, since most of the larger atrocities were committed by the SS.
The point is - you don't need to establish a connection with Mengele or anything like that. We already have lot's of evidence that SS-units were used as terror-units and to commit atrocities. Denying or downplaying those is just as bad as denying the holocaust - you are not only arguing against reality, you are also doing it in order to defend known mass-murderers.

[Sidewinder]

I get the feeling being caught in a stormtrooper or jedi outfit would be nearly as politically damaging.

Problem: Imperial stormtroopers are FICTIONAL characters. Whatever war crimes they committed, had NO IMPACT on the REAL WORLD. There is NO ONE who can validly claim, "Imperial stormtroopers murdered my family!"

Nazis are NOT fictional characters. Whatever war crimes they committed, harmed REAL PEOPLE in THIS WORLD. There are PLENTY of people who can validly claim, "Nazis murdered my family!"

[Marcus Aurelius]

The point is - you don't need to establish a connection with Mengele or anything like that. We already have lot's of evidence that SS-units were used as terror-units and to commit atrocities. Denying or downplaying those is just as bad as denying the holocaust - you are not only arguing against reality, you are also doing it in order to defend known mass-murderers.

While that is all true, we should still remember that not all Waffen SS units were involved in atrocities and many SS men did not serve throughout the war for obvious reasons, so even if a certain person served in a unit that committed atrocities during the operation Barbarossa, it does mean that he participated in atrocities if he entered service only in 1942 or 1943.

[K. A. Pital]

While that is all true, we should still remember that not all Waffen SS units were involved in atrocities and many SS men did not serve throughout the war for obvious reasons, so even if a certain person served in a unit that committed atrocities during the operation Barbarossa, it does mean that he participated in atrocities if he entered service only in 1942 or 1943.

Wait, you think Waffen-SS suddenly stopped commiting atrocities in 1943 onwards? What about the use of the Waffen-SS to wipe out the Warsaw Ghetto and later against the Warsaw Uprising? That's just an example which I recalled in a few seconds; I bet there are far more.

[xt828]

I think that in this case it is fair to smear all SS members equally. A reasonable analogy to the idea that not all of them should be considered guilty is that a person could join a KKK organisation and then turn around and say that at least he hasn't lynched anyone. The organisation itself is the problem, in that it is dedicated to the total extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Slavs and a whole basketful of others. The conscious move towards rotating personnel between Waffen-SS units and Totenkopf units (ie those running the concentration and extermination camps) further blurs the lines - it was not uncommon for W-SS personnel to be invalided to a camp position. Then, on top of all the organised killing, you have the random acts of cruelty and barbarism. Serafina is correct in stating that the actions of the SS tend to be overplayed so that those of the Heer can be downplayed, but that doesn't in any way lessen the slaughter that the SS willingly and enthusiastically took part in.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Wait, you think Waffen-SS suddenly stopped commiting atrocities in 1943 onwards? What about the use of the Waffen-SS to wipe out the Warsaw Ghetto and later against the Warsaw Uprising? That's just an example which I recalled in a few seconds; I bet there are far more.

Of course not, but not all Waffen SS units committed atrocities all the time, so it's quite possible for an individual to be in a unit that committed atrocities at some point of the war, but still never participate in any. That was the point.