Best tactics displayed in SW?

[Thanas]

[That elomin commander was also supposed to be the leader of an elite force. So I'd rather chalk it up to "loss of TF due to species deficiency which nobody else but Thrawn had found out about and exploited" than "NR is so stupid that it thinks elite task forces = idiots who cannot respond to an attack"

Is the elite force from somewhere else in the chronology?

I think it is mentioned in conversation between a smuggler and either Han or Lando. Not sure where, exactly, though.

Furthermore, the whole species deficiency bit still is staggeringly idiotic. Paelleon himself described it as a standard maneveur and named it. The context is that it was too simple to be effective. More importantly,the Elonim deployed wrongly, in a manner that Paelleon recognised as wrong immediately, and that Thrawn said was the only pyschological way that the Elonim commander could respond.

Paelleon military training allowed him to recognise that this response was wrong. If the Elonim commander had been just as well trained as Paelleon was, he would also have followed through in the same manner and deployed differently based on textbook answers/etc. Again, the normal response of a human in an ambush would have been to hesistate and then cower under fire, the "wrong" response. Training allows for soldiers and the commander to respond aggressively and attack.

So you are going with "the NR is stupid and puts idiots in command of task forces." Fair enough, but I doubt it is supported by anything and assumes the whole of the NR to be incompetents. I see no reason to doubt Thrawn's explanation here, seeing as how there was no way for him to assume that the NR commander was stupid. So what you are saying here is that Thrawn is stupid as well, for he just attacked in a standard manner that would have resulted in catastrophe against a competent commander.

[PainRack]

A much better retcon would have been Thrawn studying the commander history and realising that he had a proven track record of being unable to realise the effectiveness of similar tactics.

Because the whole specist defect bit IS arguing that the New Republic are idiots who have no military training for their commanders. There is no single point pyschological blindspot, rather, any defect that manifests species wide must be exhibited in a continium.
Humans for example normally exhibit increased agitation when attempting to lie about a secret. Trained interrograters can thus notice telltale reveals for the majority.
However, this behaviour does not manifest itself solely when a person is telling lie. Rather, the whole pyschological construct means this increased in agitation occurs in other social situations, to the extent that people do know about such weaknesses.


Paelleon recognised the tactic when Thrawn exhibited it, hence, there is a "textbook" answer on exactly how not to respond to the maneveur. Indeed, Paelleon recognises that the Elonim responded wrongly to such a maneveur. Any training would have revealed the deficiency of any Elonim commanders and attempted to correct it, unless you're attempting to argue that said tactic was so specific and exotic that it is the only plausible situation where the Elonim would have screwed up.

[Thanas]

A much better retcon would have been Thrawn studying the commander history and realising that he had a proven track record of being unable to realise the effectiveness of similar tactics.

That assumes Thrawn has magic intel.

Paelleon recognised the tactic when Thrawn exhibited it, hence, there is a "textbook" answer on exactly how not to respond to the maneveur. Indeed, Paelleon recognises that the Elonim responded wrongly to such a maneveur. Any training would have revealed the deficiency of any Elonim commanders and attempted to correct it, unless you're attempting to argue that said tactic was so specific and exotic that it is the only plausible situation where the Elonim would have screwed up.

Why can't it be an extremely rare blindspot which nobody besides an absolute genius at warfare would find out about? Heck, Pellaeon certainly did not find it out - wanting to run instead of fighting.

[PainRack]

Because specist wide pyschological defects don't manifest along that narrow an aspect and there's no reason to suppose they should. Someone, somewhere would have known that Elonim don't respond well in a 3D environment or etc.

As regards Paelleon, he didn't know it was an Elonim commander. In universe, Thrawn supposedly discovered that out by watching how the Elonim deployed his forces against Thrawn TIE sentry line.

Last but not least, I would once again mention that the whole point of training is so your military officers know how to respond under various situations and scenarios. Paelleon recognised Thrawn maneveur immediately, suggesting it was a standard tactic used and known to other military officers. Hence, a well trained Elonim commander should had been exposed to such a scenario before......

[Thanas]

Because specist wide pyschological defects don't manifest along that narrow an aspect and there's no reason to suppose they should. Someone, somewhere would have known that Elonim don't respond well in a 3D environment or etc.

As regards Paelleon, he didn't know it was an Elonim commander. In universe, Thrawn supposedly discovered that out by watching how the Elonim deployed his forces against Thrawn TIE sentry line.

Indeed. Which goes in well with what I am saying above - the defect can only be exploited if the enemy recognizes he faces an elomin.

Last but not least, I would once again mention that the whole point of training is so your military officers know how to respond under various situations and scenarios. Paelleon recognised Thrawn maneveur immediately, suggesting it was a standard tactic used and known to other military officers. Hence, a well trained Elonim commander should had been exposed to such a scenario before......

Okay - so your suggestion is that the NR should havbe trained the Elonim to go to standard response pattern X. However, the Marg Sabl is not the only uncoordinated attack maneuver out there. Training them to adopt a specific formation if the enemy does something they cannot understand is not going to do much.

Maybe that is even what he was doing? Trying to establish a defence formation, but failing because not all defence formations are good against a specific tactic?

[PainRack]

Regarding the exploit, the issue is not whether a pyschological defect exists in the Elonim. The issue is with regards to training and counter-acting instinct.

The exploit only works if nobody realises the Elonim has such a specific weakness and thus, nobody has trained Elonim commanders to work in the "right" way.

As for establishing a defence formation, he established the wrong formation and Thrawn commented that it was the only possible way the Elonim pysche would allow him to deploy. The wrong one.

That's sheer nonsense. Again, with regards to being ambushed, the normal human trait is to hesitate and cower in cover, the exact wrong move. Training overrides the instinctive nature of flight or fight. We aren't told what the right counter to the maneveur is, but there definitely SHOULD exist the wrong answer. Especially since Paelleon recognised it.

[Thanas]

So again, what is your explanation for what happened?

a) The NR is so stupid they put an idiot in charge who forgot his training when he reacted in the wrong fashion to a bog-standard maneuver. Also, Thrawn is lying to Pellaeon about his abilities.
b) The NR is so stupid that they put an untrained commander in command of the fleet. Also, Thrawn is lying to Pellaeon about his abilities.
c) The NR is so stupid that they put a species in charge with a defect and forgot to train them to respond to that.
d) The species in charge has a defect that is impossible to counter but that has a very miniscule chance of ever being exploited by the enemy.

Which is it? Or do you have another explanation?

[PainRack]

So again, what is your explanation for what happened?
Which is it? Or do you have another explanation?

What about there isn't one which doesn't stretch credubility?

Or is it now the job of the fans to simply accept that Rebel with ice-maker running away with important core chip isn't sheer bunk?

[Thanas]

So again, what is your explanation for what happened?
Which is it? Or do you have another explanation?

What about there isn't one which doesn't stretch credubility?

That is a cop out and you know it. You just can't handwave it away. So again, either provide an explanation that is more likely than the one given by the author or just quit arguing this.

[Stofsk]

It was the first time we see Thrawn and Zahn immediately shows us that he's a military genius full of intuition which isn't apparent to a more orthodox officer like Pellaeon. We do kinda have to suspend our disbelief a little, but that's acceptable. None of the other options 'lol the NR is retarded!' fits at all and break suspension of disbelief quite drastically.

[Thanas]

^and it involves Thrawn lying to Pellaeon. Granted, he did not exactly fill him in about anything, but he still is Thrawn's chosen protege and Thrawn would be lying about Pellaeon's field of expertise, which also serves no purpose.

[Abacus]

To give my two-cents:

Why are you calling it a "psychological defect"? I think you're describing the wrong word, or using the wrong one. The Elomin commander was in no way "defective" in his psychological state. My prognosis is that Thrawn, having his detailed knowledge of the Elomin mindset and psychology, could then tailor his attack pattern to send a direct hit against the Elomin commander's psychological blind-spot. It happens to real commanders in the field all the time. They are competently trained and are excellent examples of what a good and skilled officer is suppose to be, until they are hit by a situation that simply "freezes" them and they reply by rote or fall back on rudimentary skills.

It happened to one of my fellow trainees when I was at LDAC. He was company commander while we were on a convoy run. The sergeants running the opposition informed him that his lead vehicle just lost its engine. Then the opposing red team attacked whilst simultaneously he was being hailed on three different channels to respond to class-A threats or actions that needed immediate decisions. He froze. I watched him just sit down and with a blank look on his face stare off at nothing. So much happened at once at he couldn't psychologically deal with it all in any kind of effective manner, so he shut down.

What Thrawn did was find that small psychological blind-spot that the Elomin people have in not being able to deal with such an unstructured attack; it being so random, to that commander, could not react appropriately except to fall back onto what his training gave him, which was to form into a formation that was ultimately useless. Thrawn was such a dangerous opponent because besides the obvious fact that he was the most skillful Imperial tactician and commander, he was also a master of psychological warfare, able to exploit different species blind-spots and prey upon their fears, which would make them make a mistake.

[PainRack]

That is a cop out and you know it. You just can't handwave it away. So again, either provide an explanation that is more likely than the one given by the author or just quit arguing this.

Right. So the loss of the Death Star and the Executor removed the "cream" of the Empire officer corps.

The ISD is 17 thousand design flaws waiting to be exploited.

Why are you calling it a "psychological defect"? I think you're describing the wrong word, or using the wrong one. The Elomin commander was in no way "defective" in his psychological state. My prognosis is that Thrawn, having his detailed knowledge of the Elomin mindset and psychology, could then tailor his attack pattern to send a direct hit against the Elomin commander's psychological blind-spot. It happens to real commanders in the field all the time. They are competently trained and are excellent examples of what a good and skilled officer is suppose to be, until they are hit by a situation that simply "freezes" them and they reply by rote or fall back on rudimentary skills.

The scenario was that the Elonim commander responded in an entirely wrong manner to an approved tactic that was recognised by Paelleon to be flawed. Training is supposed to overcome instincts and provide insight to what to do in a situation like this.

Again, I say that it makes MUCH better sense that Thrawn knew the task force commander was an Elonim beforehand, his initial foray using TIE fighters revealed that said commander had such a flaw and he exploited it with the Marg sabel maneveur. Lying to Paelleon for no rhyme and reason? Thrawn was an alien warlord without much support from significant portions of the Imperial navy, which either remained secretly loyal to Palpatine or to rival warlords. Building up a mystique for genius to Paelleon, so that he could bind his loyalty to him is a valid political reason.

What's the only flaw with this? Thrawn needs to have magic intel? So what? He already had magic intel in the form of Delta source. Its mind boggling to imagine that vital operational information from the Republic was being revealed in the Grand Corridor of the Imperial Palace. Hasn't anyone in the Republic heard of loose lips sink ships? The Grand Corridor is an open avenue, granted, deep in the Palace. Thrawn should still have been able to glean lots of important information but the importance of Delta source would have been political as opposed to military significance, which should not have been discussed in such an environment.

[Bakustra]

That is a cop out and you know it. You just can't handwave it away. So again, either provide an explanation that is more likely than the one given by the author or just quit arguing this.

Right. So the loss of the Death Star and the Executor removed the "cream" of the Empire officer corps.

The ISD is 17 thousand design flaws waiting to be exploited.

The second one is a quote from a comedy sourcebook, used as hearsay. And yet people obsess over it. Welp, there goes any chance of having anything amusing in Star Wars, people will freak out until the end of time about it.

The first is not all that unreasonable. The most ambitious would probably volunteer for Rebel-hunting duties, seeing as that's the most glamorous position and the most likely area to distinguish oneself in. Death Squadron is all Rebel-hunting, all the time. So I don't see where this becomes a massive problem, especially when combined with the Death Star (Also a distinguished position). But I know that this will become ZAHN ZAHN MINIMALISM shortly, so whatever.

[Thanas]

That is a cop out and you know it. You just can't handwave it away. So again, either provide an explanation that is more likely than the one given by the author or just quit arguing this.

Right. So the loss of the Death Star and the Executor removed the "cream" of the Empire officer corps.

The ISD is 17 thousand design flaws waiting to be exploited.

Bakustra already dealt with that, but it is not uncommon even in RL navies to have their cream of the crop on their flagship. Guess what would have happened to the German Navy had Friedrich der Grosse sank with all hands?

What's the only flaw with this? Thrawn needs to have magic intel? So what? He already had magic intel in the form of Delta source

Proof that such intel in such detail was ever provided by Delta source? You expect Thrawn to have a 1 in how-many-thousands chance of getting that intel and you then expect him to have the good fortune of also just facing that taskforce. Right.

Your entire stance might be summed up with this:

for, he reasons pointedly,
that which must not, can not be.

[PainRack]

Bakustra already dealt with that, but it is not uncommon even in RL navies to have their cream of the crop on their flagship. Guess what would have happened to the German Navy had Friedrich der Grosse sank with all hands?

Right. So the Imperial navy, which would have tens of thousands of fleet captains, admirals, and who knows how many lower officers could only have 20 elite odd fleet captains and Admiral Piett.
Throw in the Death Star and you still get a pittance of the Empire senior leadership corp apart from Grand Admirals.

Proof that such intel in such detail was ever provided by Delta source? You expect Thrawn to have a 1 in how-many-thousands chance of getting that intel and you then expect him to have the good fortune of also just facing that taskforce. Right.

Your entire stance might be summed up with this:

So, your argument is that the retcon doesn't work because its absurd, ignoring the fact that its still LESS absurd than the canon position presented by Zahn.

Note, Thrawn did not need to know the commander existence from Delta Source, he only needed to know. Indeed, Paelleon already mentioned Intelligence reports of Rebel forces in the area.

[Thanas]

Right. So the Imperial navy, which would have tens of thousands of fleet captains, admirals, and who knows how many lower officers could only have 20 elite odd fleet captains and Admiral Piett.
Throw in the Death Star and you still get a pittance of the Empire senior leadership corp apart from Grand Admirals.

Did you miss the part where pellaeon explicitly mentions the thousands of officers and cadets that went down with the ship?

So, your argument is that the retcon doesn't work because its absurd, ignoring the fact that its still LESS absurd than the canon position presented by Zahn.

By whose standards? Yours?

Again, you seem to ignore canon and something that is explicitly stated to be so-and-so just because you refuse to believe that out of the thousands of species, one might have a blind spot. Shocking, I know.

[PainRack]

Right. So the Imperial navy, which would have tens of thousands of fleet captains, admirals, and who knows how many lower officers could only have 20 elite odd fleet captains and Admiral Piett.
Throw in the Death Star and you still get a pittance of the Empire senior leadership corp apart from Grand Admirals.

Did you miss the part where pellaeon explicitly mentions the thousands of officers and cadets that went down with the ship?

Thousands including the JUNIOR officers on board the executor and death star. Or are you suggesting that thousand of senior officers were on board the Death Star and Executor?
Oh wait. I forgot. Paelleon in the novel only mentions the Executor alone.

By whose standards? Yours?

Again, you seem to ignore canon and something that is explicitly stated to be so-and-so just because you refuse to believe that out of the thousands of species, one might have a blind spot. Shocking, I know.

Wrong. I'm not claiming that the Elonim doesn't has a blind spot. I'm pointing out that using a mere "blind spot" argument is dumb because military training covers that problem and tries to override it.

Humans are afraid of the dark and don't like moving out from cover? Tough shit, that's what night exercises are for.
Fire discipline overrides the normal instinctive nature of humans to shoot first and ask question later, which is bad when you're attempting to set an ambush.

In order NOT to protray the New Republic as sheer incompetents who would promote commanders of a task force without adequately preparing them, additional reasons need to be inserted. I provided one.
We already know Intelligence had reports of a task force in the area as mentioned by Paelleon. Further indepth information which was not shown in context could had easily alerted Thrawn to the possibility of such a tactic and the whole TIE sentry line ruse was an attempt to actually confirm such a possibility as opposed to Thrawn attempting to find out which "species" led the task force.

It gets even more blindingly numb when other sources tell us that rebel forces are often multi-species in nature, although heavily dominated by humans. Hence, the response of multiple captains and other officers would had obscured the nature of the Elonmin leadership. Its also numbingly difficult to imagine that each species would have been so "unique" that a routine deployment and shooting down of one TIE would had allowed Thrawn to pinpoint which species led the attack. It makes more sense that Thrawn probe was to ascertain whether said task force was actually vulnerable to the Marg attack than to discover the species of the commanding officer.

And why would Thrawn lie? A duplictious creature who had no qualms in engaging in pyschological warfare so as to bind the loyalty of the Noghri to him? The use of reward and punishment to bind the loyalty and increase the effectiveness of the Chimaera crew? Is it hence so difficult to believe that Thrawn wouldn't had lied to Paelleon so as to bind HIS loyalty to him?

[Abacus]

Thousands including the JUNIOR officers on board the executor and death star. Or are you suggesting that thousand of senior officers were on board the Death Star and Executor?
Oh wait. I forgot. Paelleon in the novel only mentions the Executor alone.

Actually Paelleon mentions how the course of the battle fell to shit after the loss of the Executor and the Death Star. He mentions also that it wasn't until his own ship had sustained serious damage, killing his Captain in the process, that Paelleon took command and ordered all remaining ships to retreat. So yes, it is quite possible that the "creme-de-la-creme" of the Imperial Fleet was located on the DS, Executor, and the task force specifically brought together to defend the DS and the Emperor who was on it. Palpatine himself, in the movies, says that an entire Legion of his best troops is located on Endor during the assault. Would you image that the task force carrying that legion to be second-rate or something? No.

To use a real world example for clarification: This battle was akin to Napoleon losing all of his Old Guard, the elite veterans of his army, at once and being killed at the same time. What would be left would be middling soldiers and conscripts led by incompetents in comparison to their British opposition (Wellington).

Wrong. I'm not claiming that the Elonim doesn't has a blind spot. I'm pointing out that using a mere "blind spot" argument is dumb because military training covers that problem and tries to override it.

Military training does not cover everything. It hardly covers the specific psychological aspects inherent in your racial make-up, which is what Thrawn targeted. Military training can only go so far. You don't like it? Buy a droid.

Humans are afraid of the dark and don't like moving out from cover? Tough shit, that's what night exercises are for.
Fire discipline overrides the normal instinctive nature of humans to shoot first and ask question later, which is bad when you're attempting to set an ambush.

You're under the assumption that a trained soldier will react like a robot in every situation irregardless of an unlimited number of uncontrollable variables. And you would be wrong. Plenty of times when I was in Iraq, the trained soldiers with me would react first on instinct. It often kept them alive.

In order NOT to protray the New Republic as sheer incompetents who would promote commanders of a task force without adequately preparing them, additional reasons need to be inserted. I provided one.

One thing inherent in the Real Life military and an aspect that Zahn touches upon throughout the Thrawn series, is the aspect of political appointments. Officers who have friends or supporters in the civilian side of government that can act on their behalf of getting better assignments, faster promotion, choice commands, etc. It's hardly a far-fetched occurrence. Any officer who wants to get above Captain or Major has to start thinking in a political mindset as well as their normal paradigms.

We already know Intelligence had reports of a task force in the area as mentioned by Paelleon. Further indepth information which was not shown in context could had easily alerted Thrawn to the possibility of such a tactic and the whole TIE sentry line ruse was an attempt to actually confirm such a possibility as opposed to Thrawn attempting to find out which "species" led the task force.

That intelligence you mention would have detailed only a presence as a result of previous data-dump raids that the Imperial forces were pulling in the region. The Republic task force in question was, as told in the book, part of a diplomatic tour to the Obroa-skai system. The commander of the raider force says only that there was a Republic force there, but does not give details. We do not know its make-up or numbers until it appears on the TIE Scout trails, then gunning for the Chimaera. So it is improbable that Thrawn would have any accurate intelligence on the Republic task force before the battle commences.

Secondly, Paelleon is the one who (from his perspective) realizes that Thrawn sent the perimeter scouts to engage the Republican forces to determine how they would react, and by that reaction, gauge who is in command.

It gets even more blindingly numb when other sources tell us that rebel forces are often multi-species in nature, although heavily dominated by humans. Hence, the response of multiple captains and other officers would had obscured the nature of the Elonmin leadership. Its also numbingly difficult to imagine that each species would have been so "unique" that a routine deployment and shooting down of one TIE would had allowed Thrawn to pinpoint which species led the attack. It makes more sense that Thrawn probe was to ascertain whether said task force was actually vulnerable to the Marg attack than to discover the species of the commanding officer.

You are wrong in the aspect of the Republic forces being dominantly human, it is a point of pride for the Republic that so many varied species serve with them, in opposition to the Human-centrist doctrine of the Empire. It isn't necessarily wrong either that a single attack could reveal the reactionary response from a commander, that response being inherently attached to how his/her species enacts warfare.

The Marg Sabl attack formation was only chosen after Thrawn ascertained that it was an Elomin commanding the task force. You have to realize that Thrawn is given a gigantic story-driven power in the series. Timothy Zahn has stated that Thrawn's character is a composite of various historical and fictional personalities, including Erwin Rommel, Robert E. Lee, Hannibal Barca, Alexander the Great, and Sherlock Holmes, to name a few. The sheer amount of intelligence, military acumen, and hyper-analysis that he is suppose to contain make him quite literally a force of nature.

And why would Thrawn lie? A duplictious creature who had no qualms in engaging in pyschological warfare so as to bind the loyalty of the Noghri to him? The use of reward and punishment to bind the loyalty and increase the effectiveness of the Chimaera crew? Is it hence so difficult to believe that Thrawn wouldn't had lied to Paelleon so as to bind HIS loyalty to him?

The real question is not why would Thrawn lie, but to whom and under what circumstances. The Noghri were already a servile race to the Empire long before they came under Thrawn's command, so you can lay the blame for that at Vader's feet.

Reward and punishment is a basic principle of the military establishment and is in no way unique to Thrawn's command style. In fact he is quite unique in his understanding of the soldier psyche. Everyone expected the second tractor-beam crewer to be killed like the first did for his failure. Instead, Thrawn rewarded the man for his inventiveness and flexibility. He carefully balanced and cultured the respect of his soldiers, much like any number of real life generals and commanders have and will continue to do.

I think it is difficult to accept that Thrawn would blatantly lie to Paelleon over something as simply as what this situation is that we are arguing over. Paelleon is Thrawn's protege, that much is clear. While it is clear that Thrawn would keep a few very sensitive secrets to himself and away from the command ranks of his fleet, something as small as knowing or not knowing (using your explanation, not mine) the identity of this specific republic task force (which is pretty small) is inane. Thrawn would have wanted to court Paelleon's respect and understanding, for lack of a better word, and would have included him on the knowledge that pitiful or have led Paelleon to figure it out by a line of reasoning, as he does on certain occasions (again, grooming him for command). It simply goes against what I, as a former commanding officer, sense Thrawn would have done in this situation.

[PainRack]

I really need to go dig up where my copy of the novel is since the debate is getting serious.

Actually Paelleon mentions how the course of the battle fell to shit after the loss of the Executor and the Death Star. He mentions also that it wasn't until his own ship had sustained serious damage, killing his Captain in the process, that Paelleon took command and ordered all remaining ships to retreat. So yes, it is quite possible that the "creme-de-la-creme" of the Imperial Fleet was located on the DS, Executor, and the task force specifically brought together to defend the DS and the Emperor who was on it. Palpatine himself, in the movies, says that an entire Legion of his best troops is located on Endor during the assault. Would you image that the task force carrying that legion to be second-rate or something? No.

To use a real world example for clarification: This battle was akin to Napoleon losing all of his Old Guard, the elite veterans of his army, at once and being killed at the same time. What would be left would be middling soldiers and conscripts led by incompetents in comparison to their British opposition (Wellington).

The exact canon quote is the loss of the Executor and its impact on the officer corp. Even if we were to generalise it to the loss of the task force, it would still be relatively minor when compared to the scale of Imperial forces.

Military training does not cover everything. It hardly covers the specific psychological aspects inherent in your racial make-up, which is what Thrawn targeted. Military training can only go so far. You don't like it? Buy a droid.

..... Did you even read my posts?
The exact specifics is such that Paelleon recognise the maneveur and knows that the Republic were moving in the EXACT wrong nature.

You're under the assumption that a trained soldier will react like a robot in every situation irregardless of an unlimited number of uncontrollable variables. And you would be wrong. Plenty of times when I was in Iraq, the trained soldiers with me would react first on instinct. It often kept them alive.

No. I'm arguing that the canon argument given by Zahn is absurd because pyschological blind spots don't work that way and training is meant to override "normal" instincts.
Especially when we're talking about an intlectual response to a movement.

One thing inherent in the Real Life military and an aspect that Zahn touches upon throughout the Thrawn series, is the aspect of political appointments. Officers who have friends or supporters in the civilian side of government that can act on their behalf of getting better assignments, faster promotion, choice commands, etc. It's hardly a far-fetched occurrence. Any officer who wants to get above Captain or Major has to start thinking in a political mindset as well as their normal paradigms.

So your counter-argument is that the Republic task force were fools..... hardly a better counter-example.

That intelligence you mention would have detailed only a presence as a result of previous data-dump raids that the Imperial forces were pulling in the region. The Republic task force in question was, as told in the book, part of a diplomatic tour to the Obroa-skai system. The commander of the raider force says only that there was a Republic force there, but does not give details. We do not know its make-up or numbers until it appears on the TIE Scout trails, then gunning for the Chimaera. So it is improbable that Thrawn would have any accurate intelligence on the Republic task force before the battle commences.

I know. Hence, the whole word "magic intel".

Secondly, Paelleon is the one who (from his perspective) realizes that Thrawn sent the perimeter scouts to engage the Republican forces to determine how they would react, and by that reaction, gauge who is in command.

Sigh. Led on by Thrawn himself. You know, the "lied to" part of the argument Thanas is harping about?

You are wrong in the aspect of the Republic forces being dominantly human, it is a point of pride for the Republic that so many varied species serve with them, in opposition to the Human-centrist doctrine of the Empire. It isn't necessarily wrong either that a single attack could reveal the reactionary response from a commander, that response being inherently attached to how his/her species enacts warfare.

Ahem. "Humans are the arm of the Rebellion" ROTJ novelisation. more importantly, multi-racial task forces actually make it MORE difficult to assume the reactionary response because we're supposed to be talking about instinctive reaction, not a trained one.

The Marg Sabl attack formation was only chosen after Thrawn ascertained that it was an Elomin commanding the task force.

Or as I pointed out, the probe wasn't to determine the "species" but rather, the vulnerability of the task force to such a maneveur.
Doesn't detract from his capabilities, make it much more likely and less absurd.

I think it is difficult to accept that Thrawn would blatantly lie to Paelleon over something as simply as what this situation is that we are arguing over. Paelleon is Thrawn's protege, that much is clear. While it is clear that Thrawn would keep a few very sensitive secrets to himself and away from the command ranks of his fleet, something as small as knowing or not knowing (using your explanation, not mine) the identity of this specific republic task force (which is pretty small) is inane. Thrawn would have wanted to court Paelleon's respect and understanding, for lack of a better word, and would have included him on the knowledge that pitiful or have led Paelleon to figure it out by a line of reasoning, as he does on certain occasions (again, grooming him for command). It simply goes against what I, as a former commanding officer, sense Thrawn would have done in this situation.

What blatent lies? Thrawn simply didn't tell everything. His debriefing of Paelleon is that the commander was an Elonim and under such circumstances, they can't react differently to a Marg Sabel manevuer.

[Thanas]

The exact canon quote is the loss of the Executor and its impact on the officer corp. Even if we were to generalise it to the loss of the task force, it would still be relatively minor when compared to the scale of Imperial forces.

Holy christ on a pogo stick, numbnuts. Nobody is denying that the loss was minor compared to the scale of the entire Imperial forces. You idiot seem to be forgetting that we are talking about the empire losing the elite of their officer corps. Guess what the effect of any military will be if they lose the top 1% of their most promising cadets? That will be a blow.

..... Did you even read my posts?
The exact specifics is such that Paelleon recognise the maneveur and knows that the Republic were moving in the EXACT wrong nature.

So what?

You're under the assumption that a trained soldier will react like a robot in every situation irregardless of an unlimited number of uncontrollable variables. And you would be wrong. Plenty of times when I was in Iraq, the trained soldiers with me would react first on instinct. It often kept them alive.

No. I'm arguing that the canon argument given by Zahn is absurd because pyschological blind spots don't work that way and training is meant to override "normal" instincts.
Especially when we're talking about an intlectual response to a movement.

Are you kidding me? You are a psychologist now? And the soldiers in Iraq reacting on instinct did not happen....because it just cannot be?



This is hilarious. On the one hand we have PainRack, major psychologist, impotently screeching that it could not happen....because it just could not and because Thrawn lied, damnit. On the other hand we have perfectly legitimate reasons to assume it went down exactly the way it is stated in the book.


For, he reasons pointedly,
that which must not, can not be.

[Abacus]

Yeah, I'm done arguing with you painrack. And I thoroughly agree with Thanas' observation of your argument.

For, he reasons pointedly,
that which must not, can not be.

[PainRack]

Holy christ on a pogo stick, numbnuts. Nobody is denying that the loss was minor compared to the scale of the entire Imperial forces. You idiot seem to be forgetting that we are talking about the empire losing the elite of their officer corps. Guess what the effect of any military will be if they lose the top 1% of their most promising cadets? That will be a blow.

You're fucking kidding me. Losing several fleet captains and Admiral Piett is going to cost you the most elite of the senior officer cadre in the Empire?
And that's ignoring the junior officer corp, which was included in Paelleon remisicance as the incident was triggered by a mere bridge officer failing to follow protoccol.

Are you kidding me? You are a psychologist now? And the soldiers in Iraq reacting on instinct did not happen....because it just cannot be?

Say what? WTF?
How on earth is "acting on instinct" supposed to be a counter-argument? Abacus point was instinctive action can be useful, even though in reality, the bulk of it is actually instinctive memory drilled into them by training.

Your argument in whole is that such an instinctive blind spot isn't covered by training........ because its supposedly so rare. This even though pyschological profile species wide shouldn't exhibit around a narrow spectrum that would have gone unnoticed.

This is hilarious. On the one hand we have PainRack, major psychologist, impotently screeching that it could not happen....because it just could not and because Thrawn lied, damnit. On the other hand we have perfectly legitimate reasons to assume it went down exactly the way it is stated in the book

Ad hominen fallacy asshole.

[Bakustra]

Holy christ on a pogo stick, numbnuts. Nobody is denying that the loss was minor compared to the scale of the entire Imperial forces. You idiot seem to be forgetting that we are talking about the empire losing the elite of their officer corps. Guess what the effect of any military will be if they lose the top 1% of their most promising cadets? That will be a blow.

You're fucking kidding me. Losing several fleet captains and Admiral Piett is going to cost you the most elite of the senior officer cadre in the Empire?
And that's ignoring the junior officer corp, which was included in Paelleon remisicance as the incident was triggered by a mere bridge officer failing to follow protoccol.

Oh dear god, it is ZAHN ZAHN MINIMALISM. But it's drizzled in a lovely dressing of stupid. The point is that the most promising junior officers and cadets would apply for positions onboard Executor and the rest of Death Squadron (Since it seems likely that Pellaeon would include the supporting ships when considering the losses). I don't know why you decided that Thanas was saying "senior officers".

Are you kidding me? You are a psychologist now? And the soldiers in Iraq reacting on instinct did not happen....because it just cannot be?

Say what? WTF?
How on earth is "acting on instinct" supposed to be a counter-argument? Abacus point was instinctive action can be useful, even though in reality, the bulk of it is actually instinctive memory drilled into them by training.

Your argument in whole is that such an instinctive blind spot isn't covered by training........ because its supposedly so rare. This even though pyschological profile species wide shouldn't exhibit around a narrow spectrum that would have gone unnoticed.

Why is training automatically flawless? Why would there be special attention given to a species that lives on one planet and is so minor that a repressive state went unnoticed for decades under the Republic?

This is hilarious. On the one hand we have PainRack, major psychologist, impotently screeching that it could not happen....because it just could not and because Thrawn lied, damnit. On the other hand we have perfectly legitimate reasons to assume it went down exactly the way it is stated in the book

Ad hominen fallacy asshole.

You have no idea what that means. Thanas is not dismissing your arguments because of you the person, he is saying that you have nothing to support your claims of impossibility, insulting your feelings of grandeur at the same time.

[PainRack]

Oh dear god, it is ZAHN ZAHN MINIMALISM. But it's drizzled in a lovely dressing of stupid. The point is that the most promising junior officers and cadets would apply for positions onboard Executor and the rest of Death Squadron (Since it seems likely that Pellaeon would include the supporting ships when considering the losses). I don't know why you decided that Thanas was saying "senior officers".

Yeah yeah yeah, labelling something does not automatically make it wrong. The only way the statement could even have an impact on the Empire was if it was senior officers, and even here....... its still a pittance.

Why is training automatically flawless? Why would there be special attention given to a species that lives on one planet and is so minor that a repressive state went unnoticed for decades under the Republic?

Sigh. Did you even read my post in full?

My argument isn't that the Elonim don't have such a flaw or that training would have counter-acted everything. My argument is that the description as it stands alone is insufficient because species wide vulnerability would tend to exhibit itself in a much larger spectrum and it wouldn't be unknown. Hence, unless one argues that the Republic simply didn't train its commanders well enough, they would have known of this deficit and attempted to correct it.

The TIE probe wasn't to establish the species, but rather, to establish the commander vulnerability to such a tactic.

It works BETTER than the Zahn statement because it assumes the Republic aren't fools.

You have no idea what that means. Thanas is not dismissing your arguments because of you the person, he is saying that you have nothing to support your claims of impossibility, insulting your feelings of grandeur at the same time.

Oh bullshit. Thanas literally has been using the "PainRack has no idea what he's talking about" tangent for the last two post now.

Again, the fundamental problem with the argument is that it assumes that blind spot= uncorrectable or unknown by anyone.

Thanas argument is that "why can't it be an extremely rare blindspot that nobody knows about". Something that is exhibited species wide is unknown.
And the Republic military never had a situation where such a defect could pop up either in training or in combat.


Sorry if I punctured Thrawn aura of invulnerability by pointing out that this exploit worked because he determined that the opponent actually had a vulnerability to be exploited, as opposed to being a godlike genius who knew something no one else in the universe knew. That is literally Thanas argument. Thrawn is the sole military expert who realised the Elonim had such a weakness.