review of "Gods and Generals" (spoliers)

[Ted]

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.

It may have not been gov sponsored, but thats what was there.

A film about Atlanta with no blacks.

[Darth Wong]

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.

And that makes it better ... how?

[Joe]

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.

And that makes it better ... how?

Becuase the government is no longer subsidizing the oppression of blacks with tax dollars extracted from them.

I don't like segregation, government-enforced or otherwise. But it's better that the government at least give people the option of voluntarily phasing it out, rather than enforcing its continued existence at gunpoint, don't you think?

[Trytostaydead]

Okay, how's this for a resolution?

Go see the movie first! Let's support Ron Maxwell and Ted Turner (brrrr), because we all want to see The Last Full Measure when the Union kicks butt, right?

Well, actually the Union doesn't kick butt, it's just a matter of attrition (look at Petersburg, Battle of the Crater, the Wilderness.. horrific losses).. but if there's one scene that I am willing to pay dearly for is when the surrendering confederate forces trudge past 5th Corps and General Chamberlain orders, "CARRY ARMS!" Perhaps the most astonishing act of the war.

Battle of the Crater. (SHIVER)

In an attempt to break the fortifications around the city, the Union digs a tunnel, puts hundreds of pounds of black powder in a room dug under the fortification lines and blows a pit so deep it's still there today...

And the first Union troops into the Crater was a Black Regiment, who get slaughtered brutally by the recovered Confederates, leaving the situation the same. The general view at the time by the Union command? "It was just blacks, no big loss. Maybe it would have worked with White Troops, but we didn't want to risk them" (paraphrased of course)

The Battle of the Crater was a GOOD plan for the Union to break the Southern line as proposed by Colonel Pleasant and probably end the war right there, but at the beginning it was bungled by the Northern Generals. And the chief bungler was.. you guessed it, BURNSIDE!

First of all, they didn't direct the troops where to go.. most went straight into the crater instead of AROUND it and had no way out of it. Then, the order of the troops was picked out almost by picking names out of a hat. They picked the regiments who had no idea what they were doing to go in first. When the Southern troops saw black troops entering the horrific mess, what ensued was a slaughter for both black and white troops. Incidentally, if the black troops had been leading the charge the Battle of the Crater might have gone differently.

[Darth Wong]

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.

And that makes it better ... how?

Becuase the government is no longer subsidizing the oppression of blacks with tax dollars extracted from them.

I don't like segregation, government-enforced or otherwise. But it's better that the government at least give people the option of voluntarily phasing it out, rather than enforcing its continued existence at gunpoint, don't you think?

Perhaps I should have clarified. It's better from the standpoint of how oppressed the blacks are, but NOT from the standpoint of what it says about the populace.

[Trytostaydead]

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.

And that makes it better ... how?

Becuase the government is no longer subsidizing the oppression of blacks with tax dollars extracted from them.

I don't like segregation, government-enforced or otherwise. But it's better that the government at least give people the option of voluntarily phasing it out, rather than enforcing its continued existence at gunpoint, don't you think?

Segregation still exists today all over the U.S. in terms of education. Schools don't like busing in students (unless they're a Magnet or gifted), and school districts are divided by location. So you have all the rich or well to do in one area and the poor in another. My old High School of course had Mexicans and a few blacks, but it was mainly composed of rich white kids, asians, and jews and we were a world renowned school. Now, there's forced busing and I heard the school went down the potty hole now.

[Joe]

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.

It may have not been gov sponsored, but thats what was there.

A film about Atlanta with no blacks.

Atlanta with no blacks?

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

[Darth Wong]

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.

It may have not been gov sponsored, but thats what was there.

A film about Atlanta with no blacks.

Atlanta with no blacks?

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I think you missed his point, which was that a business promotion film made by Atlanta obviously filtered out visible blacks as part of the production, which says a lot about their mentality.

[Nathan F]

However, it's pretty obvious that the Northern states have grown up a Hell of a lot faster than the Southern states. The Southern states are still bitter over their loss in the Civil War, so like children, they're still pouting over it by trying to oppress blacks as much as legally allowable.

They've oppressed millions of human beings for a century and a half out of SPITE?!?!?!? If that's true, it's even more contemptible than I thought. Honestly, I have a lot of trouble believing that's true.

I don't really think it's all that hard to believe, personally. I've known people who've gone through the educational system down there, and it's full of distorted versions of Civil War battles meant to glorify the Confederacy. They refuse to evolve because they're still harkening back to the good ole days when "the nigger was in the cotton fields." So, they keep passing this attitude on to successive generations through their educational system and social conditioning. Spite may not have everything to do with it, but you can bet that it's a part of it.

You people have some nerve. You say that all the south is still racist hicks who think that African Americans belong in fields picking cotton and that we are idiots who sit around in drink beer all day. You believe that racism is everywhere in the south.

If you think the way you say you do, you are as narrow minded and, frankly, stupid, as the people you criticize.

The history taught in southern schools is the same as taught in northern schools. We buy the same history books, and are certified by the same federal standards. Everyone knows that the south lost the war, and almost everyone knows that slavery was an evil institution. Of course, you also, in your holier than thou mindset, refuse to realize that there are just as many people in the north who are racist. If I am not mistaken, some of the largest KKK and other white supremacist groups are in Minnesota, a state that is about as far north as you can get.

The way you talk, you are as bad as the worst racist southener.

Of course the opinion of the North isn't very good in the south, and for good reason! Just look at yourself! That statement you just typed explains the reason that the majority of southerners resent northerners! There are so many of you who think that, just because you live in the northern part of the country you are automatically better than anyone from the southern part of the country.

You make me sick.

[Ted]

Atlanta with no blacks?
You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I KNOW what I'm talking about. I'm saying that the City of Atlanta put together a film about the city, yet included no blacks.

[Joe]

Atlanta with no blacks?
You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I KNOW what I'm talking about. I'm saying that the City of Atlanta put together a film about the city, yet included no blacks.

You'll have to understand my skepticism; a private business I can see running such a promotion, but the government? No. We haven't had a white mayor in Atlanta since the 70's. No, absolutely not. I'm not calling your father a liar, but such a video would contradict everything anyone who lives within 20 miles of Atlanta knows of its politics.

[Trytostaydead]

Wow NF_Utvol..

I spent some time in deep Louisiana.. while they were pretty poor, these were WONDERFUL people who made me feel welcome no matter where I was. I guess I was exotic, being the only Asian there I guess, lol. But I was staying with people from Teach for America and I will never say these people distort history, or galvanize racism or anything.

God, I loved Louisiana in fact.. very warm people, WONDERFUL FOOD

[MKSheppard]

There are so many of you who think that, just because you live in the northern part of the country you are automatically better than anyone from the southern part of the country.

You make me sick.

Wow, that's the best verbal bitchslap I've heard in a long time. I can hear
the slap from all the way here.

Of course, I would have said the same thing, but much more expletive filled,
and less coherent, but that's because I'm Shep I don't generally enage
me brain before talking, I just do it. That tends to get me in trouble with
EVERYONE, from cops, to my parents, etc etc

[Darth Wong]

You people have some nerve. You say that all the south is still racist hicks who think that African Americans belong in fields picking cotton and that we are idiots who sit around in drink beer all day. You believe that racism is everywhere in the south.

Explain 40% of Alabamans voting to keep interracial marriage illegal, Nathan. Explain why the south has a disproportionate representation among white-supremacist groups. These aren't hasty generalizations based on stereotypes; there is a definite pattern here and you just don't like having it pointed out, so you just get angry and fling mud at the critics.

If you think the way you say you do, you are as narrow minded and, frankly, stupid, as the people you criticize.

See above.

The history taught in southern schools is the same as taught in northern schools. We buy the same history books, and are certified by the same federal standards. Everyone knows that the south lost the war, and almost everyone knows that slavery was an evil institution. Of course, you also, in your holier than thou mindset, refuse to realize that there are just as many people in the north who are racist. If I am not mistaken, some of the largest KKK and other white supremacist groups are in Minnesota, a state that is about as far north as you can get.

You are mistaken. Adherents.com does not list any significant KKK presence in Minnesota, and in fact, by far the largest concentration is in Georgia. Perhaps you should go flame them too, for presenting data harmful to your cause.

The way you talk, you are as bad as the worst racist southener.

Oh, so it's racism to point out that the South is racist? Puh-lease.

Of course the opinion of the North isn't very good in the south, and for good reason! Just look at yourself! That statement you just typed explains the reason that the majority of southerners resent northerners!

Maybe if you cleaned up your act down there, these kinds of comments would not be common. Blacks and whites are heavily, informally segregated in the South. People are so accustomed to it that they don't even seem to realize it's racist. There are high schools in southern states which just had their first interracial school dance in the last two or three years, and were congratulating themselves for being progressive! And again, I remind you of that 40% bigot vote in Alabama.

There are so many of you who think that, just because you live in the northern part of the country you are automatically better than anyone from the southern part of the country.

No one said that. There are undoubtedly some nice people down there. But that doesn't change the fact that there are millions of bigots, and you are quite frankly bullshitting when you claim that the situation is just as bad everywhere. Tell me, upon what data do you base this claim? The same sort of made-up bullshit in which you claimed the KKK's strongest presence is in Minnesota rather than Georgia?

You make me sick.

Go ahead, lash out if it makes you feel better. Doesn't change the facts.

[Darth Wong]

There are so many of you who think that, just because you live in the northern part of the country you are automatically better than anyone from the southern part of the country.

You make me sick.

Wow, that's the best verbal bitchslap I've heard in a long time. I can hear
the slap from all the way here.

Too bad it was ignorant and stupid. You should learn to distinguish between an effective rebuttal and a spittle-flecked flame.

Of course, I would have said the same thing, but much more expletive filled, and less coherent, but that's because I'm Shep I don't generally enage me brain before talking, I just do it. That tends to get me in trouble with EVERYONE, from cops, to my parents, etc etc

At least you admit it.

[Ted]

At least you admit it.

Thats the thing about Shep.

He'll admit that he's to the point, brutally.

[Trytostaydead]

Sorry Darth Wong,

Hate to tell you this.. but from where I am, in sunny liberal democratic equal liberties for everyone hoorah California, it's QUITE racist. Especially in the upper-echelons of certain educational and governmental circles.. even in the business world.

There is a forced racial equality in most aspects (we call it Affirmative Action).

So just pointing out a particular region and saying they're more racist than the other part of the country is plainly ridiculous. You will have portions that are more plainly racist here and there..

[Darth Wong]

Sorry Darth Wong,

Hate to tell you this.. but from where I am, in sunny liberal democratic equal liberties for everyone hoorah California, it's QUITE racist. Especially in the upper-echelons of certain educational and governmental circles.. even in the business world.

There is a forced racial equality in most aspects (we call it Affirmative Action).

So just pointing out a particular region and saying they're more racist than the other part of the country is plainly ridiculous. You will have portions that are more plainly racist here and there..

I suggest you look at your post and try to figure out where your logic has gone wrong (hint: attempt to refute a comparative statement with only one absolute quantity).

[Nathan F]

You people have some nerve. You say that all the south is still racist hicks who think that African Americans belong in fields picking cotton and that we are idiots who sit around in drink beer all day. You believe that racism is everywhere in the south.

Explain 40% of Alabamans voting to keep interracial marriage illegal, Nathan. Explain why the south has a disproportionate representation among white-supremacist groups. These aren't hasty generalizations based on stereotypes; there is a definite pattern here and you just don't like having it pointed out, so you just get angry and fling mud at the critics.

If you notice, you hear just as much about white supremacy groups and militia groups in the western mountain states, with, relatively few in the south (my information is concerning Tennessee, so, it might not apply for the rest of the south.) I am beginning you just get angry when someone contradicts one of your statements and YOU don't like it. Tell me, when was the last time you were in the south? I have lived here all my life, and have travelled all through it, and I have yet to see a black person singled out because of race. Now, this does happen, but, it also happens in the north. It does not, however, happen with the frequency you seem to think it does. You keep reinforcing the image of yourself as having a bitterness towards southerners for some reason.

The history taught in southern schools is the same as taught in northern schools. We buy the same history books, and are certified by the same federal standards. Everyone knows that the south lost the war, and almost everyone knows that slavery was an evil institution. Of course, you also, in your holier than thou mindset, refuse to realize that there are just as many people in the north who are racist. If I am not mistaken, some of the largest KKK and other white supremacist groups are in Minnesota, a state that is about as far north as you can get.

You are mistaken. Adherents.com does not list any significant KKK presence in Minnesota, and in fact, by far the largest concentration is in Georgia. Perhaps you should go flame them too, for presenting data harmful to your cause.

I was mistaken in referring to the KKK. That was incorrect.

Odd, though, the second highest amount was in Pennsylvania...

Another oddity, why aren't there any African American governers in Illinois, yet, the first was in Virginia (the place that the Confederacy started)...

Of course the opinion of the North isn't very good in the south, and for good reason! Just look at yourself! That statement you just typed explains the reason that the majority of southerners resent northerners!

Maybe if you cleaned up your act down there, these kinds of comments would not be common. Blacks and whites are heavily, informally segregated in the South. People are so accustomed to it that they don't even seem to realize it's racist. There are high schools in southern states which just had their first interracial school dance in the last two or three years, and were congratulating themselves for being progressive! And again, I remind you of that 40% bigot vote in Alabama.

Again, there you go with your stereotypical generalizations. In my high school, there were, lets see about 5 black students. Do you know why? Because there is an incredibly low rate of African American's living in my county. No one bothered them, no one really cared what color they were, as a matter of fact. The entire time I was in school, not one of them was picked on or singled out because of race.
[/quote]
Have you ever stopped to think that the reason that the first interracial dance in that school might have been because that there simply were no black students living in the area that that school drew students from?

There are so many of you who think that, just because you live in the northern part of the country you are automatically better than anyone from the southern part of the country.

No one said that. There are undoubtedly some nice people down there. But that doesn't change the fact that there are millions of bigots, and you are quite frankly bullshitting when you claim that the situation is just as bad everywhere. Tell me, upon what data do you base this claim? The same sort of made-up bullshit in which you claimed the KKK's strongest presence is in Minnesota rather than Georgia?

Well, that statement was really directed towards Durandal. Let's see, I am not sure how you intended it to come across, it really did sound like you were stating your superiourity to southerner's with statements like 'the south is childish' and the 'north has grown up alot faster than the south'.

That is pure and utter bull.

I just recalled the KKK statement. But, how do you explain the second largest KKK concentration is in Pennsylvania?

You make me sick.

Go ahead, lash out if it makes you feel better. Doesn't change the facts.

No, it might not change the facts. You do make me sick, though, with your rapid generalizations and stereotypical statements.

[beyond hope]

Aren't most of the white supremacist groups like the Aryan Nation out in Idaho these days in fortified compounds? When the KKK had their big resurgence in the 1950s and 60s, a lot of their new numbers were in the north, in places like Indiana and Ohio. Of course, at that time the KKK had shifted some of the focus of their hate to groups like jews and Catholics. Some of the most racist assholes I've had the displeasure of interacting with online have been from the midwest.

*Edit*: incidental note... I've always been tempted to go to a Klan rally and say "so, you're a Grand Wizard... what kind of tricks do you do?"

[Wicked Pilot]

Just a personal observation: I go to school in North Louisiana. Besides the university, there is only one place in this mostly rural college city that is not segretated; Wal-Mart. That's right, Wal-Mart is the only goddamn place where you can find people of different colors. But they still don't talk to each other.

[Trytostaydead]

Just a personal observation: I go to school in North Louisiana. Besides the university, there is only one place in this mostly rural college city that is not segretated; Wal-Mart. That's right, Wal-Mart is the only goddamn place where you can find people of different colors. But they still don't talk to each other.

It's like that in Universities too.

[Durandal]

Aren't most of the white supremacist groups like the Aryan Nation out in Idaho these days in fortified compounds? When the KKK had their big resurgence in the 1950s and 60s, a lot of their new numbers were in the north, in places like Indiana and Ohio. Of course, at that time the KKK had shifted some of the focus of their hate to groups like jews and Catholics. Some of the most racist assholes I've had the displeasure of interacting with online have been from the midwest.

The South is predominantly rural, which is why there is a larger racist presence down there. The North has more cities and urban areas. It's fairly obvious that the KKK presence in Chicago, New York and Los Angeles is next to nothing.

Being someone who lives in the Midwest, I can attest to the racist attitudes prevalent south of I-80 in Illinois. That's more or less the border. As you get further South, it only gets worse. That's just the reality. All the blacks in the Springfield area are all concentrated in the city, while whites dominate the surrounding rural areas and proudly take credit for keeping black people out of their little, white-bred, redneck towns.

[LadyTevar]

[tangent]*Reads through posts, notices LadyTevar's avatar. Does a double-take.*

Gah! A Redmage lover![/tangent]

Only because they don't have a WhiteMage Icon.

[Captain Cyran]

[tangent]*Reads through posts, notices LadyTevar's avatar. Does a double-take.*

Gah! A Redmage lover![/tangent]

Only because they don't have a WhiteMage Icon.

Ah ha, that explains a few things. Well, you COULD make your own.