Paying for higher education

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Paying for higher education

Post by ray245 »

UNIVERSITY tuition fees are political dynamite. Tony Blair’s government first introduced upfront charges for students in Britain in 1998; they were replaced in England in 2004 with a scheme under which fees rose, but students could borrow the cost from the state and repay it once they were earning. That move proved even more contentious in Parliament than Mr Blair’s decision to wage war on Iraq. A new proposal for graduates to pay even more for the education they have enjoyed could open a rift in the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government.

Demand for higher education is booming around the world; to help increase the supply, many countries, including Germany, Ireland and Spain, have begun charging students, as America has long done. In England (Scotland and Wales have separate regimes) a student beginning his studies this year must contribute £3,290 ($5,200) towards the annual cost of his education. The actual average cost is around £7,000: the state partially plugs the gap, and also lends students the money to pay their fees and living expenses. These loans currently carry no interest in real terms, and graduates do not begin repaying them until they are earning £15,000 a year or more.

This largesse meant that simply letting universities expand to meet demand was unaffordable, even before the coalition set out to squeeze Britain’s fiscal deficit and public spending. The previous Labour government recognised the unsustainability of the arrangements it had designed, and in November 2009 commissioned an independent review of the system, headed by Lord Browne, a former boss of BP. On October 12th he published his report. Predictably, it caused an uproar.

Lord Browne called for universities to be allowed to charge whatever they like for their courses—though other parts of his plan might limit the fees at most institutions to around £6,000 a year. He suggested that those who wanted to charge more than that figure should give a rising proportion of the excess to the state. For example, universities charging £7,000 a year would hand over £400; the contribution would rise to £4,500 for those pricing themselves at £12,000 (less than the average actual cost of teaching medicine and dentistry), leaving the university with just £7,500. Diminishing the returns from increasing fees would reduce the incentive to hike them, not least as students might be reluctant to pay stratospheric fees if they knew a big chunk would go to the Treasury.

To help ensure that the resulting debts would not oppress the less well-off, Lord Browne also recommended that the income threshold at which loan repayments begin should be lifted to £21,000; and that the debts of graduates beneath that level should not accrue any interest in real terms. He suggested that loans for living costs should continue, alongside non-repayable maintenance grants for students from poor families. But he believes that one of the main reasons too few suitably qualified students from poorer backgrounds get to the best universities is that they are badly advised by their teachers, and wants every school to provide well-informed careers guidance to its pupils.

If cheap loans to students were retained to cover increased fees, these plans would be cripplingly expensive. To reduce the burden on the state, Lord Browne proposed that, when a graduate does earn more than £21,000, he should pay interest on his debt at the same rate as the government borrows the money; and that the debt should not be written off until 30 years after graduation, up from 25.


Now for the hard part

According to Lord Browne, these reforms would shift the costs of higher education away from low-earning graduates and towards their higher-earning classmates (see chart). Roughly the top 40% of earners would pay back all the money that the government had forked out on their behalf; the lowest earners would pay less than they do under the present system.

But the main winner would be the exchequer, according to an analysis by Lorraine Dearden and Haroon Chowdry of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. They agree that better-paid graduates would pay more, and poorly paid graduates less. However, universities would also lose out, should the direct subsidy to institutions be removed for most subjects, as the report envisages (and as may well happen), because the graduate contributions would only partially compensate.

Before the general election in May, all three main political parties said they would examine Lord Browne’s suggestions. But enacting them could prove tricky and embarrassing—because the Lib Dems promised eventually to abolish tuition fees in their manifesto, and have secured the right to abstain from any vote on legislation arising from the review. Responding to its publication, Vince Cable, the Lib Dem business secretary who is responsible for universities, repeatedly hinted that annual fees could be limited to £7,000, as he tried to persuade his party to rethink its stance. “In this current economic climate,” he said, opposition to fees “is simply no longer feasible”. He was frank about the exigencies of coalition: “The roads to Westminster are covered with the skid marks of political parties changing direction.”

So far the Lib Dem mutiny is muted, compared to the rebellion unleashed when Mr Blair reneged on his party’s pledge not to raise the tuition fee in 2004. Just one backbencher, Greg Mulholland, told Mr Cable that he would stick to his earlier pledge to vote against any rise in fees. A big part of the explanation for the calm is that a third of Lib Dems MPs hold government posts. There may well be too few rebels on the backbenches to prevent the relevant legislation passing. (Some senior Lib Dems always thought the party’s policy was mistaken, and are glad to use the cover of the coalition to ditch it.)

The government can console itself that Labour has its own splits on the issue. Many Labour MPs have in the past favoured a “graduate tax”, including Ed Miliband, their leader, who has consistently criticised the idea of higher fees. However, Alan Johnson, who was higher education minister in 2004, and is now shadow chancellor of the exchequer, has opposed a graduate tax.

Although the Lib Dems may win some concessions, many of Lord Browne’s recommendations have a strong chance of becoming reality. One thing seems certain: as universities await the cuts to their central funding for teaching that the chancellor is expected to announce on October 20th, as part of the government’s spending review, graduates will be asked to pick up most of the tab.
http://www.economist.com/node/17257835

I'm not really sure if the increasing trend of raising tuition fees all over the world is a good idea.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by K. A. Pital »

It only underscores the reality, that is, the class character of education. If the fees are low, technically the education can be close to universal (anyone who wants can get it). But if they are high enough to switch a good segment of population out of the process (even the lower quintille), that means the education is no longer universal and indeed, is more a mockery of the concept of universal education than an example thereof.

I have always consistently opposed paid-for higher education and any education in general. It should be meritocratic, and money should play no role in selection of candidates.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Master of Ossus »

Stas Bush wrote:It only underscores the reality, that is, the class character of education. If the fees are low, technically the education can be close to universal (anyone who wants can get it). But if they are high enough to switch a good segment of population out of the process (even the lower quintille), that means the education is no longer universal and indeed, is more a mockery of the concept of universal education than an example thereof.

I have always consistently opposed paid-for higher education and any education in general. It should be meritocratic, and money should play no role in selection of candidates.
Why are these concepts anathema to one another? In the US, for example, money plays no role in selection of candidates at any major school or institution (they're all need-blind admissions), and the US has powerful financial aid packages to allow people from low-income families to go to college or university. You can disagree with some of the precise mechanisms, but it's not like it's theoretically impossible to come up with a system that allows for both values you're championing to exist.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Eh that's debatable. If you're willing to payfull tuition for a college, alot of places in the US are alot more willing to look at your application.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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The very existence of people whose education is constrained by the amount of money available to pay for college undermines Master of Ossus's argument.

Of course, Ossus could go on to argue that such people are obviously lacking in the merit needed to obtain scholarship support, but that would be a difficult position to defend unless he has a lot of data tucked up his sleeve.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Alphawolf55 wrote:Eh that's debatable. If you're willing to payfull tuition for a college, alot of places in the US are alot more willing to look at your application.
Throw in a generous donation, and the said kid might well be guaranteed a place!
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Murazor »

The fee raising in much of Europe is mostly a side effect of the Bologna declaration and other stuff about the European space for higher education, rather than a sudden increase in the number of university students.

Spain, for example, has had a glut of college graduates for at least a decade (which in part explains our funtastic 20% of unemployment) and the best 'solution' they have come up with so far is to keep the new students out of the job market for as long as possible.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Simon_Jester wrote:The very existence of people whose education is constrained by the amount of money available to pay for college undermines Master of Ossus's argument.
The US formula is designed to eliminate the existence of such people--virtually all reputable and accredited colleges and universities offer full need packages for admitted students. The effects that are cited in opposition to the "full need" financial aid system, as provided, tend to be things like "indirect" effects, such as the increased desire for impoverished families to have their kids work in order to support the family. However, the direct financial impact on such families is meant to be zero (and, when you think about it, adjusting for the indirect effect would be questionable in and of itself because it's not an effect created by the "cost" of the education, but rather by the family's financial need--something that exists even if college is universally provided).

Other people often argue for things like cumulative impact of multiple children, which can alter the familial results of the formula when applied across multiple students in the same family over time, but that's really not relevant to this subject which is meant to look at individual students.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Simon_Jester wrote:The very existence of people whose education is constrained by the amount of money available to pay for college undermines Master of Ossus's argument.
Quite a few universities in the U.S. have moved to waiving tuition in some fashion for 'low' income families. For example, MIT has eliminated tuition for families earning under 75K. For that matter, so has Stanford. In addition, a large number of colleges in the U.S. provide extensive assistance if you qualify.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Master of Ossus wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:The very existence of people whose education is constrained by the amount of money available to pay for college undermines Master of Ossus's argument.
The US formula is designed to eliminate the existence of such people--virtually all reputable and accredited colleges and universities offer full need packages for admitted students. The effects that are cited in opposition to the "full need" financial aid system, as provided, tend to be things like "indirect" effects, such as the increased desire for impoverished families to have their kids work in order to support the family. However, the direct financial impact on such families is meant to be zero (and, when you think about it, adjusting for the indirect effect would be questionable in and of itself because it's not an effect created by the "cost" of the education, but rather by the family's financial need--something that exists even if college is universally provided).

Other people often argue for things like cumulative impact of multiple children, which can alter the familial results of the formula when applied across multiple students in the same family over time, but that's really not relevant to this subject which is meant to look at individual students.
One of the biggest problems though is that those systems look at parents income levels and assume they'll put themselves in ridiculous debt. What about families that have pre-existing debt or families who refuse to pay for their kids college like some of my friends.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Alphawolf55 wrote:One of the biggest problems though is that those systems look at parents income levels and assume they'll put themselves in ridiculous debt. What about families that have pre-existing debt or families who refuse to pay for their kids college like some of my friends.
Preexisting debt is accounted for by the standard formula. Many schools have also eliminated loans altogether as part of their financial aid programs.

But fundamentally I challenge your claim of "ridiculous debt." A college education is about the best investment that a typical student can make, even if they're paying full tuition and even if they take all of it in loans. It substantially improves their earnings potential in exchange for the costs.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Still what if parents are dicks or have other children to potentially pay for?

Also ridiculous as in the amount. A 50-100,000 dollars of debt, to get a degree that in this economy doesn't even guarantee you a job anymore is a bit much, let alone a job that actually lets you pay it off, when you include that student loans can't be declared bankrupt like mortgages and other loans. It's a bit ridiculous.

Though you're right, it's still a good investment because even though having a degree doesn't guarantee you a good job, not having one guarantees you won't, even for careers that probably don't need straight up 4 year degrees but ask for them.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Alphawolf55 wrote:Still what if parents are dicks or have other children to potentially pay for?
What of it? Other children to potentially pay for is accounted for by the formula. Again, you can probably quibble with how need is calculated, but the principle clearly exists.
Also ridiculous as in the amount. A 50-100,000 dollars of debt, to get a degree that in this economy doesn't even guarantee you a job anymore is a bit much, let alone a job that actually lets you pay it off,
Why? Because you say so?
when you include that student loans can't be declared bankrupt like mortgages and other loans. It's a bit ridiculous.
Yes they can. Under Chapter 13, if the student can show that paying the student loan would create an undue hardship on themselves or their family (ie. if the student debt turns out to be demonstrably unreasonable). (See, e.g., Section 1322(a) of the US Bankruptcy Code).

But, again, this is an attack on the specific US institutions that handle student debt; it is not an indictment of a system in which students are expected to shoulder some of the costs of college.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Who cares if the principle exist if the outcome doesn't arrive to the right place?

Also what do you mean because I say so? Most people would find it ridiculous to owe money that equals a 20-30% of a house on the POSSIBILITY of getting a good job. Again just because people have to owe that much money doesn't make it reasonable.

Also according to this http://www.finweb.com/investing/bankrup ... -mean.html. Chapter 7 does not absolve student loans.

Also why have a system that expects different students to owe different amounts? Why not just have colleges be funded completely by taxes and have real price control set in.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Alphawolf55 wrote:Who cares if the principle exist if the outcome doesn't arrive to the right place?
Because we're talking about the movement of European higher education systems to adopt the pay-to-play policy for higher education. Just because you have quibbles about the American system doesn't mean that European countries will face those same issues because they could elect to do things differently.
Also what do you mean because I say so? Most people would find it ridiculous to owe money that equals a 20-30% of a house on the POSSIBILITY of getting a good job.

Again just because people have to owe that much money doesn't make it reasonable.
It's a statement that's requesting evidence to support your assertion. Please provide evidence that "most people would find it ridiculous," but beyond that ridiculousness is NOT established by some sort of democracy-rules policy.

It's not ridiculous to owe $50,000, for instance, to be moved from a population in which the median annual income is something like $30,000 to another population in which the median annual income is something like $46,000. An investment that will most likely pay for itself in three years is generally regarded as a sure-fire thing, even when there's risk involved. (And, actually, despite the impression you seem to be under, college graduates are significantly less likely to be unemployed than people with only high school degrees, right now, so college attendance is by that measure less risky).
Also according to this http://www.finweb.com/investing/bankrup ... -mean.html. Chapter 7 does not absolve student loans.
Yeah, that is why I specifically talked about Chapter 13, under which only priority creditor debts are non-dischargeable. (Those are things like child and spousal support payments).
Also why have a system that expects different students to owe different amounts?
Because different colleges offer different services and different levels of service, as well as face different costs. Allowing consumers (students) to pick schools based on such criteria therefore seems reasonable.
Why not just have colleges be funded completely by taxes and have real price control set in.
I fail to see what this would achieve. And, moreover, given that need in the US is calculated as an expected family contribution, with the rest of tuition generally covered by financial aid, this doesn't meaningfully differ from the US system except for people who have very little demonstrated need.

Edit: Actually, it seems my information was out of date. As of 2006, you appear to be able to show undue hardship to discharge student loans under any chapter of bankruptcy. See, e.g., In re Nys, 446 F. 3d 938 (9th Cir. 2006) and In re Brunner 831 F. 2d 395 (2d. Cir. 1987) and In re Refino.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Wait, in some places you don't have to pay to go to college? Wtf? That is just so antithetical to anything I've ever known it seems bizarre. Not that I'm against it. I just didn't realize it existed. Huh.
Alphawolf55 wrote:Eh that's debatable. If you're willing to payfull tuition for a college, alot of places in the US are alot more willing to look at your application.
Schools don't know whether or not you have the money upfront when you apply. Nor do they know anything about your financial situation. At least, that's how it is at every place I've ever applied to. So how would they decide admission based on that?!?
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Master wrote:"It's a statement that's requesting evidence to support your assertion. Please provide evidence that "most people would find it ridiculous," but beyond that ridiculousness is NOT established by some sort of democracy-rules policy.".

How the hell am I suppose to show that. I'm not sure there are many surveys that ask "Hey is 50,000 dollars of debt that will raise to over 100,000 dollars, reasonable if other systems exist?"

I mean I can point to the fact that rising cost is lowering people's trust in the college system. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/2 ... 57095.html.

Also citizens in most countries don't pay nearly as much as we do, so again if other options exist, how is it reasonable. I mean can you point to a direct benefit of having such level of debts for individuals?

But again, the only reason why it seems to reasonable to people is because the other options in our country are pay it or not have a good job. But it doesn't change the fact other options are possible. I mean would you say that US healthcare cost are reasonable, because the alternatives are so much worse?

Also I've already said multiple times that college is a good investment and not having a degree in this country limits your options too much. Why are you claiming I haven't said this?

Yeah, that is why I specifically talked about Chapter 13, under which only priority creditor debts are non-dischargeable. (Those are things like child and spousal support payments)."
Master wrote:Well actually you never mentioned Chapter 13 specifically, but thank you for the information none the less.
Master wrote:I fail to see what this would achieve. And, moreover, given that need in the US is calculated as an expected family contribution, with the rest of tuition generally covered by financial aid, this doesn't meaningfully differ from the US system except for people who have very little demonstrated need.


It would achieve stopping ridiculously rising tuition cost. Tuition is rising far faster then inflation and is becoming increasingly unaffordable for people.

Also if college is so easily paid for, why do so many people having trouble affording it?


Also Liberty: I don't mean pay as in cost for free. I mean it doesn't cost an upfront fee.

Also, I remember having to state whether I wasgoing to apply for fiancial aid on my applications, that would indicate whether I'm going to pay the full amount. Also if a student is applying from out of state to a state university,they're not going to qualify for resident rates, which also indicates you'll pay more if accepted.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Murazor »

Liberty wrote:Wait, in some places you don't have to pay to go to college? Wtf? That is just so antithetical to anything I've ever known it seems bizarre. Not that I'm against it. I just didn't realize it existed. Huh.
Well, I cannot speak about Germany or France, but in my case *pulls out old receipts* my second year in the university (out of a four years degree in Economics) cost me 231€. That was in 2003 for 69 credits (equivalent to 690 hours of classroom time), though that was because I had two sisters and enjoyed 50% cuts in the fee for that.
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Re: Paying for higher education

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Alphawolf55 wrote:How the hell am I suppose to show that. I'm not sure there are many surveys that ask "Hey is 50,000 dollars of debt that will raise to over 100,000 dollars, reasonable if other systems exist?"
You're not supposed to stake your argument around claims that you can't support.
I mean I can point to the fact that rising cost is lowering people's trust in the college system. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/2 ... 57095.html.
Hello unsupported claim.
Also citizens in most countries don't pay nearly as much as we do, so again if other options exist, how is it reasonable.
Sure they do. It's just hidden behind a tax system (or through some other method of public finance), as opposed to through tuition payments.
I mean can you point to a direct benefit of having such level of debts for individuals?
Yes: you don't have to pay an additional income tax for the rest of your life on everything you earn.
But again, the only reason why it seems to reasonable to people is because the other options in our country are pay it or not have a good job. But it doesn't change the fact other options are possible. I mean would you say that US healthcare cost are reasonable, because the alternatives are so much worse?
Excuse me? I evaluated college prices as an investment. At no point was I positing reasonability only because of custom in the US--I showed that the debt load was eminently reasonable given the spectacularly high returns on that investment. By your figures, and using numbers from your own website, college costs $50,000 and a college degree correlates with almost a 2/3 increase (over 63%) in weekly income. If we simplistically attribute the entire difference in income to the education provided, that indicates a 41.5% annual return on investment. I challenge you to find an investor who would say that this was "unreasonable." Keep in mind, people argue that credit card interest rates are unreasonably high when they tend to be around 20%. How can an investment that provides DOUBLE this rate of return be considered unreasonable?
Also I've already said multiple times that college is a good investment and not having a degree in this country limits your options too much. Why are you claiming I haven't said this?
I've never claimed you didn't say it, although you clearly do not understand it. What does it mean for something to be a good investment if it's considered "unreasonable" to invest in it?
Well actually you never mentioned Chapter 13 specifically, but thank you for the information none the less.
Excuse me?
I wrote:Yes they can. Under Chapter 13, if the student can show that paying the student loan would create an undue hardship on themselves or their family (ie. if the student debt turns out to be demonstrably unreasonable). (See, e.g., Section 1322(a) of the US Bankruptcy Code).
I fail to see what this would achieve. And, moreover, given that need in the US is calculated as an expected family contribution, with the rest of tuition generally covered by financial aid, this doesn't meaningfully differ from the US system except for people who have very little demonstrated need.
It would achieve stopping ridiculously rising tuition cost.[/quote]

How? How does forcing all colleges to adopt the same pricing structure stop "ridiculously rising tuition cost?" Why wouldn't a rising tide raise all boats?
Tuition is rising far faster then inflation and is becoming increasingly unaffordable for people.
Evidence that it's becoming "increasingly unaffordable?" More colleges are adopting full need-based financial aid packages, abandoning student loans as a part of financial aid packages, and becoming need blind; not less.
Also if college is so easily paid for, why do so many people having trouble affording it?
Is this really the level of discourse that we're dealing with, here?
Also Liberty: I don't mean pay as in cost for free. I mean it doesn't cost an upfront fee.

Also, I remember having to state whether I wasgoing to apply for fiancial aid on my applications, that would indicate whether I'm going to pay the full amount.
Virtually all colleges ask for this as part of an admissions package so they can evaluate their finances after a class is admitted; it doesn't mean that the admissions office has access to this information when they're evaluating students (which is the definition of "Need Blind" admissions).
Also if a student is applying from out of state to a state university,they're not going to qualify for resident rates, which also indicates you'll pay more if accepted.
OR it indicates that you will need more financial aid while you are attending school. And, of course, it only applies to public colleges that have differential rates between in-state and out-of-state students--something that most private colleges couldn't care less about.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Master wrote:Sure they do. It's just hidden behind a tax system (or through some other method of public finance), as opposed to through tuition payments..
Yeah so those who make more, pay more to the system, how is this unreasonable?
Master wrote:"Yes: you don't have to pay an additional income tax for the rest of your life on everything you earn.".
That's a benefit for high income earners. Now on the otherside, by making people take out loans rather then just having a system of tax funded, you're making people pay intereston the debt. More money is going to the banking systems rather then education itself. Granted this isn't the case if the college makes the loan.

Master wrote:Excuse me? I evaluated college prices as an investment. At no point was I positing reasonability only because of custom in the US--I showed that the debt load was eminently reasonable given the spectacularly high returns on that investment. By your figures, and using numbers from your own website, college costs $50,000 and a college degree correlates with almost a 2/3 increase (over 63%) in weekly income. If we simplistically attribute the entire difference in income to the education provided, that indicates a 41.5% annual return on investment. I challenge you to find an investor who would say that this was "unreasonable." Keep in mind, people argue that credit card interest rates are unreasonably high when they tend to be around 20%. How can an investment that provides DOUBLE this rate of return be considered unreasonable?."
One this is assuming you get the job. Two, again it's unreasonable because such a high level of debt doesn't need to exist to begin with.
Master wrote:I've never claimed you didn't say it, although you clearly do not understand it. What does it mean for something to be a good investment if it's considered "unreasonable" to invest in it??
Where did I say unreasonable to invest in college? I said there are some jobs that shouldn't require a college degree, I merely said the money owed as a ridiculous amount of money. 200,000 dollars owe for med school is a ridiculous amount, is it a good investment? Yes.

Also on the Chapter 13 bankruptcy, my mistake. I swore you merely said "Yes they can if the student can show that paying the student loan would create an undue hardship on themselves or their family (ie. if the student debt turns out to be demonstrably unreasonable)."

I'm extremely sorry.


Master wrote:How? How does forcing all colleges to adopt the same pricing structure stop "ridiculously rising tuition cost?" Why wouldn't a rising tide raise all boats?
Because with some kind of body governing the whole college system, you make it easier to lower cost in multiple areas. Additionally, people are going to pay for college no matter what, this means colleges can raise rates no matter what. If the government price controlling for healthcare doesn't raise it's cost by an extreme amount, why should college?

Master wrote:Evidence that it's becoming "increasingly unaffordable?" More colleges are adopting full need-based financial aid packages, abandoning student loans as a part of financial aid packages, and becoming need blind; not less.
Well colleges are becoming increasingly more expensive. I'll try to find something that shows this, so be patient. I mean I can prove increase cost and that people feel college is unaffordable to them (But I'll admit that doesn't prove it's actually unaffordable), by any chance do you have anything that shows colleges are increasingly picking up the slack?

Master wrote:Is this really the level of discourse that we're dealing with, here?
What do you mean. It's a legitimate question, you make it sound like people aren't being left behind. If so why can you hear so many stories of people who had to drop out due to not being able to afford school? Is it because americans aren' taking advantage of lesser known
options?


Master wrote:Virtually all colleges ask for this as part of an admissions package so they can evaluate their finances after a class is admitted; it doesn't mean that the admissions office has access to this information when they're evaluating students (which is the definition of "Need Blind" admissions).
What about when they ask for the career and college of your parents, is that privy to the admissions office?

Also true, most private colleges wouldn't but don't public instituitions account for more then 60% of the colleges?
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Master of Ossus
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Master of Ossus »

Alphawolf55 wrote:Yeah so those who make more, pay more to the system, how is this unreasonable?
It's not, necessarily, it's just a statement that you're not paying more just because it's a tuition payment as opposed to a tax.
That's a benefit for high income earners.
And for everyone who graduates from college and ends up with an income.
Now on the otherside, by making people take out loans rather then just having a system of tax funded, you're making people pay intereston the debt. More money is going to the banking systems rather then education itself. Granted this isn't the case if the college makes the loan.
This is a nonsensical false dilemma. Money isn't going to the banking system instead of to the education system.
One this is assuming you get the job.
In... a way... I guess. But you're more likely to have a job out of college than if you don't go to college.
Two, again it's unreasonable because such a high level of debt doesn't need to exist to begin with.
It doesn't have to, but a debt is not unreasonable simply because it exists. What the fuck is complicated about this concept?
Where did I say unreasonable to invest in college? I said there are some jobs that shouldn't require a college degree, I merely said the money owed as a ridiculous amount of money. 200,000 dollars owe for med school is a ridiculous amount, is it a good investment? Yes.
So, in other words, it's NOT an unreasonable debt load. God.
Because with some kind of body governing the whole college system, you make it easier to lower cost in multiple areas.
Which areas? How?
Additionally, people are going to pay for college no matter what, this means colleges can raise rates no matter what. If the government price controlling for healthcare doesn't raise it's cost by an extreme amount, why should college?
Well, first of all, you're assuming that college costs are unconstrained, which isn't true: consumers can evaluate the costs of college against the benefits of education. There's no market failure, here, particularly given that multiple universities with all sorts of aid packages and educational programs and tuition costs exist to give people choices in higher education. If you eliminate this, you're actually destroying the price mechanism as a way of rationing college costs. I'm also not seeing any savings that haven't already been realized: it's not like (e.g.) the University of California isn't large enough to achieve economies of scale. In fact, rather the opposite: several public school systems and even individual private schools have become so large as to suffer from diseconomies of scale. Making things larger doesn't help when size is actually creating costs and not reducing them.

In order to understand whether government regulation of college prices (to the extent that they're not de facto regulated by FAFSA) is a good idea or a bad idea, you have to understand why the costs of college are increasing. One reason is that public schools like the University of California aren't getting nearly the taxpayer dollars that they're used to having--that's not a signal that education is becoming more costly to offer, just that the funding mechanism has changed (also explaining why public schools increased their tuition 20% faster than private schools last year). The other primary mechanisms are that colleges are committed to offering the same financial aid they offered 5 years ago, but that federal programs for providing that assistance haven't kept pace. Thus, tuition hikes are in fact designed to reduce the burden on families that can't afford to pay. But moreover, the costs of offering an education are much higher now than they were 20 years ago. Every college or university now has an IT department. Research facilities are dramatically more expensive.

None of these problems are solved by having the government impose tuition ceilings: that would just force schools to compromise services.
Well colleges are becoming increasingly more expensive. I'll try to find something that shows this, so be patient. I mean I can prove increase cost and that people feel college is unaffordable to them (But I'll admit that doesn't prove it's actually unaffordable), by any chance do you have anything that shows colleges are increasingly picking up the slack?
This is Cornell University's explanation, which goes into a large number of factors to explain the persistent rise in tuition. It notes that 16% of every tuition dollar goes into financial aid.

But to the general point, in 2000 every school in the country utilized loans as part of their student aid package. Today, almost none of the top-50 schools in the country do this, and only a tiny handful of colleges don't offer financial aid up to the full need-based amount.
What do you mean. It's a legitimate question, you make it sound like people aren't being left behind. If so why can you hear so many stories of people who had to drop out due to not being able to afford school? Is it because americans aren' taking advantage of lesser known
options?
It's simply bullshit that people are dropping out of college because of the high costs of attendance. In fact, in 2010, college enrollment rates were at an all-time high. I'm sure that every time there's a fee increase at their school, students say that they're going to drop out. They don't. And when they do, it's not an issue of the tuition costs: it's an issue that they have other options or they don't want to do the work.
What about when they ask for the career and college of your parents, is that privy to the admissions office?
It depends. Lots of schools give preference to the immediate family of alums, though.
Also true, most private colleges wouldn't but don't public instituitions account for more then 60% of the colleges?
[/quote]

I really have no idea, but it shouldn't be terribly concerning to have more people going to private schools than to public schools or vice versa. Again, the current system gives students lots of options as to what sort of a situation they want to put themselves in. There's no reason why it should matter that some options are available to only public or private colleges, since students will be able to opt into one or the other if it's important to them.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Alphawolf55 »

I'm going to react mostly to two things since I'm reading up on things.

I wouldn't say it's bullshit that people are dropping out due to cost. I have two friends who had to drop out due to college costs and they were getting around a 4.0 and everything.

Two, the Government could save money in certain areas mostly tsextbooks, salaries and some costs that really just make the place look nicer but not much else. Granted, I'm also in the minority in that I also personally think the Government should get involved so there's a more controlled ranking system. Colleges have a wide variety of costs and people these days seem to think expense=quality. Additioanlly, if no one's heard of your college, there's needs to be a way to tell employers what level of education you really got. Not all colleges are equal and if like you said increased cost can be justified by better job prospects (which I agree it can) then there needs to be a way to signify this to your employer other then grades.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Master of Ossus »

Alphawolf55 wrote:I'm going to react mostly to two things since I'm reading up on things.

I wouldn't say it's bullshit that people are dropping out due to cost. I have two friends who had to drop out due to college costs and they were getting around a 4.0 and everything.
It's bullshit that people are dropping out due to costs.
Two, the Government could save money in certain areas mostly tsextbooks, salaries and some costs that really just make the place look nicer but not much else.
Right. So University of California should be paying lower prices for textbooks and salaries than private sector colleges, then? And it should have lower tuition increases than other systems, right? And it should have cut costs that make the place look nicer but not much else, correct? Does it achieve any of these things?
Granted, I'm also in the minority in that I also personally think the Government should get involved so there's a more controlled ranking system. Colleges have a wide variety of costs and people these days seem to think expense=quality. Additioanlly, if no one's heard of your college, there's needs to be a way to tell employers what level of education you really got. Not all colleges are equal and if like you said increased cost can be justified by better job prospects (which I agree it can) then there needs to be a way to signify this to your employer other then grades.
Okay, I went to a liberal arts college that has around 1600 students, right now. Every employer that I've ever spoken to has heard of it--and not just ones in the immediate vicinity. The ranking system that people use is the Princeton Review, and it certainly does not just respond to increases in costs, and it certainly does get the word out about small schools that are doing good things.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by Minischoles »

Liberty wrote:Wait, in some places you don't have to pay to go to college? Wtf? That is just so antithetical to anything I've ever known it seems bizarre. Not that I'm against it. I just didn't realize it existed. Huh.
In England, you get free education up to the age of 18 - which is when you usually finish college (or 6th form). Then you go onto Uni, but right now in most cases, you don't pay anything. Tuition is covered by the government, I don't even see that money, it just all goes straight to the University.
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Re: Paying for higher education

Post by K. A. Pital »

Master of Ossus wrote:The US formula is designed to eliminate the existence of such people--virtually all reputable and accredited colleges and universities offer full need packages for admitted students.
So let me get this straight, technically anyone (okay, anyone poor enough so he can't pay for it on his own) in the USA can get higher education for free? Or?
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