Sci-Fi Power Scale

[SapphireFox]

On a sliding scale of one to one hundred how would the the various sci-fi universes rate?


To place the ends of the spectrum firmly for judgment of other universes The Culture ranks at the top of the scale at 100 and our modern day world ranks at 1.

So with the ends firmly in place, where I think the various verses are ranked at is this.

100. The Culture
78. Warhammer 40k
70. Star Wars
32. Stargate
26. Star Trek
25. Babylon 5
20. Battlestar Galactica
1. Our Modern Earth

I am seeking your opinion on where you think they should be placed and the placement of sci-fi (and if you want, anime) universes you are more familiar with than I. (like maybe Halo, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, or the Starcraft universe) Please include as many universes as you want as the more names on the list the better it will be.

[Star Wars 888]

Should 40k really be above Star Wars?

Also, Star Trek varies greatly depending on the faction of Star Trek and also the category in which you're referring to. In terms of ground combat they're around 0.5. This also applies to others: Star Wars tech varies depending on the era and faction.

[Bakustra]

This has been tried in the past, and has never worked out. Never, not even with an attempt to use the Kardashev scale properly to rank sci-fi civilizations.

[Batman]

As I very much assume you mean nBSG when you say BSG you might want to clarify the poll. In fact you might want to clarify the poll period given that oBSG, SG, Trek AND Wars if taken as a whole include factions that could laugh off the best efforts of the centered on factions without noticing. Wars has the Oswaft, the Sharu, and possibly the Aing'Ti monks, Trek has the Organians, the Q, the Dowd, and assuming he wasn't a Q whatever species Trelaine was from, B5 had the Great Old Ones, SG has the Ancients...

[SapphireFox]

Should 40k really be above Star Wars?

Also, Star Trek varies greatly depending on the faction of Star Trek and also the category in which you're referring to. In terms of ground combat they're around 0.5. This also applies to others: Star Wars tech varies depending on the era and faction.

Yes, as a general rule 40K verse can deliver more firepower and take more abuse.

As for the factionalism it is not relevant because the power level is taken as an average of the whole of known powers. IE Redshirt strength level averaged with all the other groups in that universe, just as ship strength is averaged between a borg cube and a pissant oberth class science vessel.

[SapphireFox]

As I very much assume you mean nBSG when you say BSG you might want to clarify the poll. In fact you might want to clarify the poll period given that oBSG, SG, Trek AND Wars if taken as a whole include factions that could laugh off the best efforts of the centered on factions without noticing. Wars has the Oswaft, the Sharu, and possibly the Aing'Ti monks, Trek has the Organians, the Q, the Dowd, and assuming he wasn't a Q whatever species Trelaine was from, B5 had the Great Old Ones, SG has the Ancients...

Point. I will clarify the universe descriptions.

As for the rest would you prefer that I sub label the universes by group? Like say a listing like this?

70. Star wars (Galactic Empire)
and
20. NuBattlestar Galactica (Colonials)

[Chaotic Neutral]

Yes, as a general rule 40K verse can deliver more firepower and take more abuse.

I thought that the consensus was that SW ships were about 1/10 the size of W40s and had similar firepower and damage of their class, while having far longer range?

Speaking of which, how does weapon range factor into this scale? What if you have 25% less firepower but 3x as much range?

[Stark]

A one-dimensional representation of a complex issue - particularly one where individual matchups have their own characteristics (like itnerceptable FTL vs no interceptible FTL etc) and cannot be compared directly. Why would you even want such a simplistic and largely meaningless representation?

I like how the thread has alredy devolved into '40k is more powerful than SW because I say so, and this is represented by the number 8'.

[Batman]

101. The Perryverse. The in-universe equivalent of the Vorlons started to blow up galaxies when they became aware of there being a movement to go a way somewhere other than their black/white worldview. When they decided the in-universe equivalent to the B5 Younger Races were getting uppity, they changed the laws of physics.
And I can't believe nobody mentioned the Time Lords yet.

[SapphireFox]

Yes, as a general rule 40K verse can deliver more firepower and take more abuse.

I thought that the consensus was that SW ships were about 1/10 the size of W40s and had similar firepower and damage of their class, while having far longer range?

Speaking of which, how does weapon range factor into this scale? What if you have 25% less firepower but 3x as much range?

I was under the impression that the firepower for 40K was higher by a margin... If not oh well such discussions are what this thread is for. As for the range issue it is not listed as a factor for simplicities sake.

[Bakustra]

A one-dimensional representation of a complex issue - particularly one where individual matchups have their own characteristics (like itnerceptable FTL vs no interceptible FTL etc) and cannot be compared directly. Why would you even want such a simplistic and largely meaningless representation?

I like how the thread has alredy devolved into '40k is more powerful than SW because I say so, and this is represented by the number 8'.

93. Earth, 1985. They've just got to get these space marauders back, back to the future!

[Star Wars 888]

Is there any mathematical calculation for this? Like on an average of GDP, military strength, etc.? Or based on power generation?

Does it scale linearly? Doubtfully, since 70 Modern Day Earths would still not be a match for Star Wars.

[SapphireFox]

A one-dimensional representation of a complex issue - particularly one where individual matchups have their own characteristics (like itnerceptable FTL vs no interceptible FTL etc) and cannot be compared directly. Why would you even want such a simplistic and largely meaningless representation?

Because I like comparative scales and graphs even if the information is reduced to a simplistic format.

101. The Perryverse. The in-universe equivalent of the Vorlons started to blow up galaxies when they became aware of there being a movement to go a way somewhere other than their black/white worldview. When they decided the in-universe equivalent to the B5 Younger Races were getting uppity, they changed the laws of physics.
And I can't believe nobody mentioned the Time Lords yet.

*Shudder* That is a disturbing level of destruction. However it does illustrate the idea of more informed people placing the universe on the slider bar. If you want to place a position for the Time Lords on the chart go ahead and name the number you think best represents their power.

93. Earth, 1985. They've just got to get these space marauders back, back to the future!

Who, what? A description or a link to one would be nice.

[Stofsk]

A one-dimensional representation of a complex issue - particularly one where individual matchups have their own characteristics (like itnerceptable FTL vs no interceptible FTL etc) and cannot be compared directly. Why would you even want such a simplistic and largely meaningless representation?

I like how the thread has alredy devolved into '40k is more powerful than SW because I say so, and this is represented by the number 8'.

93. Earth, 1985. They've just got to get these space marauders back, back to the future!

The power of love is a curious thing
make a one man weep, make another man sing
Change a hawk to a little white dove
more than a feeling, that's the power of love

~

I calculate the above song to be well over 200 jiggatons.

[dworkin]

If The Culture rocks in at 100 where do Xeelee, Eddorians and the 'sublimed' of the culture series go? Also, where do low tech SF socieities go, eg Drake's The General series, where the most advanced peice of tech is the still experimental internal combustion engine?

[Bakustra]

93. Earth, 1985. They've just got to get these space marauders back, back to the future!

Who, what? A description or a link to one would be nice.

Why don't you just make like a tree and get out of here, Klein? It's Back to the Future. Come on.

[Purple]

A single dimensional representation would not really work as has been stated above.
A multi dimensional representation however is another thing.

Divide each universe into different categories for example: Space Combat, Ground Combat, Economic Output, Internal Stability (the less factions and the better their mutual relations the higher the score), Technological Potential (how fast does technology advance in universe, 40K gets a 1 out of 100) etc.

Than have each universe be represented by two numbers the average and the maximum scale.
The average would be a standard average of all the factions that do not vary greatly from the average. (In other words, an average of what is left when you exclude Q, the chaos gods them self and the ilk).
The maximum value however would be the maximum possible value in the universe, explicitly designed to show the factions excluded from the average.

Something like that might work.

[SeaTrooper]

...
As for the rest would you prefer that I sub label the universes by group? Like say a listing like this?

70. Star wars (Galactic Empire)
and
20. NuBattlestar Galactica (Colonials)

Agreed, we need to differentiate between factions to get any kind of accurate picture. Attempting to average across an entire 'verse would inevitably skew the results due to vast range in capabilities and technological levels of the inhabitants.
Stargate, for example. Are you including all the primitive human worlds? The base-line Jaffa without scavenged Goauld tech? Earth with or without Asgard tech? Average this out, including the non-advanced human and Jaffa worlds, and your result would be in negative numbers!

Nonetheless, I have seen this attempted before - roughly 20-odd years ago as part of a physics lesson plan discussing power generation by orders of magnitude. The list only discussed the ability to generate and HANDLE energies within a given order of magnitude. The ability to utilise energies of that capacity was the most important consideration, and the more readily and often those levels of energy were flung around, the better. From memory, it went something like this:

1. Gallifrey (Time Lords)
2. Star Wars (the Death Star)
3. Star Trek (TOS)
4. oBSG
5. Space 1999
6. Modern day Earth (US and allies)
7. Modern day Earth (Third World)

Please note that 7. refers to human or animal muscle-power only, and that 6. was our looking at hydro-electric dams, coal and natural gas-fire power stations, and (of course) nuclear reactors. S1999 probably dates the list , but was added at the time since they regularly showed the Eagles as having Artificial Gravity(!) and being able to land/launch from habitable planets as well as Luna. Likewise, I'd have put the British series 'UFO' (Gerry Anderson) at 4 or 5 (had it been shown in Oz at the time) for much the same reason.

[SapphireFox]

If The Culture rocks in at 100 where do Xeelee, Eddorians and the 'sublimed' of the culture series go? Also, where do low tech SF socieities go, eg Drake's The General series, where the most advanced peice of tech is the still experimental internal combustion engine?

Lack of knowledge on them forces me to say I don't know. As I said earlier I will respect the oppinions of those who know more on the subject and place them accordingly based on their knowledge.

As for the low tech sci-fi if it's technology can not equal or exceed modern day earth than it doesn't get placed on the scale. (and personally if the tech isn't better or equal to today then it is not sci-fi IMO)

93. Earth, 1985. They've just got to get these space marauders back, back to the future!

Who, what? A description or a link to one would be nice.

Why don't you just make like a tree and get out of here, Klein? It's Back to the Future. Come on.

*Groan* How did I miss that.

A single dimensional representation would not really work as has been stated above.
A multi dimensional representation however is another thing.

Divide each universe into different categories for example: Space Combat, Ground Combat, Economic Output, Internal Stability (the less factions and the better their mutual relations the higher the score), Technological Potential (how fast does technology advance in universe, 40K gets a 1 out of 100) etc.

Than have each universe be represented by two numbers the average and the maximum scale.
The average would be a standard average of all the factions that do not vary greatly from the average. (In other words, an average of what is left when you exclude Q, the chaos gods them self and the ilk).
The maximum value however would be the maximum possible value in the universe, explicitly designed to show the factions excluded from the average.

Something like that might work.

Hmm... Interesting if everyone likes that idea I will go with that, just have it grouped differently like. Space combat Firepower, Ground combat Firepower, Industerial output, FTL speed, and so forth probably not much more than that but still on the 1-100 scale. But I think if I do that I will sub group into factions like (Galactic Empire, Federation, SGC, Earthforce) and so on.

[keen320]

I really don't see how such a list could ever be resolved. There are multi page threads between different scenarios of two universes, how could you ever resolve a scale of all of them, or even all the popular ones? Just as a personal example, I thought Weber's Dahak series was hot stuff and posted a vs thread about it. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=144747 Admittedly I made the boneheaded mistake of suggesting it was a match for anybody, but plenty of people disagreed with me, and the thread went for three pages. And that's just for one series!

Oh, and I think the Dahak series universe should be about 80-90. A lot of the 'verses out there are tougher than I realized when I started that thread, but the Dahak verse was too. Although, I don't know whether it's prominent enough to bother putting on the list.

*Groan* How did I miss that.

There should be a smiley for that on this forum. And people should use this one more, just realized it's there!

[SapphireFox]

Ok. I have hashed this out on Excel and have got the following for judgment of opinion and debate. The chart as best as I can recreate it here as follows

Universe______________Space Combat Firepower___Ground combat Firepower___Industrial Output__FTL Speed
Cultureverse(Culture)______100_____________________?????___________________?????____________?????
Modern Earth_____________1_______________________20______________________10______________0
Star Wars (Galactic Empire)_70______________________50______________________78______________75
Star Trek (Federation)_____26______________________1_______________________20______________15
Babylon 5 (Earthforce)_____25______________________8_______________________25______________12
NuBSG (Colonials)_________20______________________8_______________________25______________30
Stargateverse(SGC Pre-Asguard core)25______________21______________________10______________20
Warhammer 40K(IoM)______75______________________70______________________60______________50

[SapphireFox]

I really don't see how such a list could ever be resolved. There are multi page threads between different scenarios of two universes, how could you ever resolve a scale of all of them, or even all the popular ones? Just as a personal example, I thought Weber's Dahak series was hot stuff and posted a vs thread about it. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=144747 Admittedly I made the boneheaded mistake of suggesting it was a match for anybody, but plenty of people disagreed with me, and the thread went for three pages. And that's just for one series!

Oh, and I think the Dahak series universe should be about 80-90. A lot of the 'verses out there are tougher than I realized when I started that thread, but the Dahak verse was too. Although, I don't know whether it's prominent enough to bother putting on the list.

Sounds like a good verse for the chart however if you want to recalculate for the new format I would be happy to put on the list.

*Groan* How did I miss that.

There should be a smiley for that on this forum. And people should use this one more, just realized it's there!

Many many people have said this including myself. However I don't think we will see one unless someone makes one and hands it to the mods. I am willing to donate this one for the cause though.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Ok. I have hashed this out on Excel and have got the following for judgment of opinion and debate. The chart as best as I can recreate it here as follows

Universe______________Space Combat Firepower___Ground combat Firepower___Industrial Output__FTL Speed
Cultureverse(Culture)______100_____________________?????___________________?????____________?????
Modern Earth_____________1_______________________20______________________10______________0
Star Wars (Galactic Empire)_70______________________50______________________78______________75
Star Trek (Federation)_____26______________________1_______________________20______________15
Babylon 5 (Earthforce)_____25______________________8_______________________25______________12
NuBSG (Colonials)_________20______________________8_______________________25______________30
Stargateverse(SGC Pre-Asguard core)25______________21______________________10______________20
Warhammer 40K(IoM)______75______________________70______________________60______________50

Where are you getting these numbers from? Empire has FTL at least 10x as fast and far more reliable than IoM. Star Trek FTL is pathetically slow, and Star Gate FTL is insanely fast.

As for the low tech sci-fi if it's technology can not equal or exceed modern day earth than it doesn't get placed on the scale. (and personally if the tech isn't better or equal to today then it is not sci-fi IMO)

You have discovered Steampunk.

[dworkin]

As for the low tech sci-fi if it's technology can not equal or exceed modern day earth than it doesn't get placed on the scale. (and personally if the tech isn't better or equal to today then it is not sci-fi IMO)

So the novels of Verne and Wells, not to mention 'What we did to Father' by Roy Lewis are not science fiction then? I understand, you are an imbecile.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Man this is great. I especially love how you didn't do any study, or explain your methodology, or quote sources, or provide supporting evidence for your claims, or anything. You just went with your gut instincts and gave an arbitrary number between 1 and 100. That is such a useful tool. You are pro at this.