Sci-Fi Power Scale

[Sarevok]

There should be categories dividing visual scifi and written stuff. The latter like 40K can be wanked to ridicules degree by taking a quote from obscure book and extrapolating to hyperbolic levels. So logically it should be Firefly, Galactica, Farscape, ST, SW etc in one category. And bookish stuff like Culture, Bolo, 40K, David Webers crap etc another. Let stuff with potential for absurd wanking compete with similar stuff. Let things that can stand on the true merit of pictorial evidence stand in a category of its own.

[Bakustra]

There should be categories dividing visual scifi and written stuff. The latter like 40K can be wanked to ridicules degree by taking a quote from obscure book and extrapolating to hyperbolic levels. So logically it should be Firefly, Galactica, Farscape, ST, SW etc in one category. And bookish stuff like Culture, Bolo, 40K, David Webers crap etc another. Let stuff with potential for absurd wanking compete with similar stuff. Let things that can stand on the true merit of pictorial evidence stand in a category of its own.

Well done, Sarevokerritch, you've managed to make this thread even dumber. I was waiting on bated breath for somebody- anybody to come and make it even worse, and you stepped right up to the challenge.

So, out of curiosity, where would animated materials and comic books fall in this little categorization of yours?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Well done, Sarevokerritch, you've managed to make this thread even dumber. I was waiting on bated breath for somebody- anybody to come and make it even worse, and you stepped right up to the challenge.

So, out of curiosity, where would animated materials and comic books fall in this little categorization of yours?

Not to mention that the categorization is retarded to begin with. When it comes to scifi universes created by a single author, there is in fact a lot less confusion than with multi-decade franchises such as ST or SW. There is no question about canon, since everything the creator has written and published is clearly canon. Usually internal consistency is much better with those as well. In that regard W40k is much closer to SW than any other "bookish" stuff, since there are a lot of more or less obscure books in both and different editions of W40k have conflicting data. Or is Sarevok suddenly arguing that the official SW EU books are NOT canon and we should only take the movies and animations as canon? Either way it doesn't make much sense.

[SapphireFox]

Ok. I have hashed this out on Excel and have got the following for judgment of opinion and debate. The chart as best as I can recreate it here as follows

Universe______________Space Combat Firepower___Ground combat Firepower___Industrial Output__FTL Speed
Cultureverse(Culture)______100_____________________?????___________________?????____________?????
Modern Earth_____________1_______________________20______________________10______________0
Star Wars (Galactic Empire)_70______________________50______________________78______________75
Star Trek (Federation)_____26______________________1_______________________20______________15
Babylon 5 (Earthforce)_____25______________________8_______________________25______________12
NuBSG (Colonials)_________20______________________8_______________________25______________30
Stargateverse(SGC Pre-Asguard core)25______________21______________________10______________20
Warhammer 40K(IoM)______75______________________70______________________60______________50

Where are you getting these numbers from? Empire has FTL at least 10x as fast and far more reliable than IoM. Star Trek FTL is pathetically slow, and Star Gate FTL is insanely fast.

A combination of listed numbers from the main site and gut feeling for the rest. However the entire purpose for this thread is to make the chart less feeling and more fact.
As for the ST/SW speeds I have it at 15/75 more than half the lists numbers are between them how much more of a difference do you want? While I may need to knock down the number for 40k and the Gateverse speeds are kind of off and may need to be recalibrated, however I can only count tech the faction makes so I can't count the ZPM extra galactic speeds just the normal hyperdrive speeds.

You have discovered Steampunk.

Basically

As for the low tech sci-fi if it's technology can not equal or exceed modern day earth than it doesn't get placed on the scale. (and personally if the tech isn't better or equal to today then it is not sci-fi IMO)

So the novels of Verne and Wells, not to mention 'What we did to Father' by Roy Lewis are not science fiction then? I understand, you are an imbecile.

Sorry but doesn't work like that.
Verne, 20,000 Leagues under the sea, we have essentially that tech today. (general fiction) Journey to the center of the earth, no tech that was not available to his time let alone ours. (Fantasy) From the Earth to the Moon, IIRC Giant cannon launches to the moon while there have been attempts to launch a payload into orbit with cannons it has yet to be achieved (Science Fiction)

Wells, War of the Worlds, martian tech is not yet buildable in the modern world {though high power laser might = heatray} (Science Fiction) The Time Machine, not possible with modern tech (Science Fiction) The First Men in the Moon, again not possible with modern tech (Science Fiction) The Island of Dr. Moreau, ability to make beast men not yet possible (Science Fiction)

As for the Roy Lewis work I haven't read it so I can't comment yet.
However more to the point is the that if the tech is beneath the low end in the earlier scale or fit at least 3 of the 4 categories in the new one why would you expect that it would end up on the list?

Man this is great. I especially love how you didn't do any study, or explain your methodology, or quote sources, or provide supporting evidence for your claims, or anything. You just went with your gut instincts and gave an arbitrary number between 1 and 100. That is such a useful tool. You are pro at this.

And you have completely missed the point of the thread in that it isn't a complete or yet accurate work yet. Hell the reason I started this damned thing was to get accurate data and proper formatting.

There should be categories dividing visual scifi and written stuff. The latter like 40K can be wanked to ridicules degree by taking a quote from obscure book and extrapolating to hyperbolic levels. So logically it should be Firefly, Galactica, Farscape, ST, SW etc in one category. And bookish stuff like Culture, Bolo, 40K, David Webers crap etc another. Let stuff with potential for absurd wanking compete with similar stuff. Let things that can stand on the true merit of pictorial evidence stand in a category of its own.

Where exactly would you put such a dividing line? Several works such as Star Wars and Halo have a significant amount of written material in their canon.

[Star Wars 888]

Ok. I have hashed this out on Excel and have got the following for judgment of opinion and debate. The chart as best as I can recreate it here as follows

Universe______________Space Combat Firepower___Ground combat Firepower___Industrial Output__FTL Speed
Cultureverse(Culture)______100_____________________?????___________________?????____________?????
Modern Earth_____________1_______________________20______________________10______________0
Star Wars (Galactic Empire)_70______________________50______________________78______________75
Star Trek (Federation)_____26______________________1_______________________20______________15
Babylon 5 (Earthforce)_____25______________________8_______________________25______________12
NuBSG (Colonials)_________20______________________8_______________________25______________30
Stargateverse(SGC Pre-Asguard core)25______________21______________________10______________20
Warhammer 40K(IoM)______75______________________70______________________60______________50

Good try, but problems:

Industrial output part is not right. Modern day Earth is one planet. Star Wars consists of millions of inhabited planets. Even if we were to discount the huge technological difference, the huge amount of droids and the huge population difference, that gives Star Wars at least several million times more industrial output than us.

In terms of space combat firepower, Star Wars is at least several thousand times more powerful than Star Trek.

In terms of ground combat firepower, the Federation should be higher than a 1. Maybe a 15.

In terms of FTL speed, Star Wars hyperdrive is at least several thousand times faster than Federation warp.

[SapphireFox]

In terms of space combat firepower, the Federation should be higher than a 1. Maybe a 15.

What!? Feddie Space Combat is listed as 26 not 1. The 1 is for Ground Combat Firepower.

[Shadow6]

A combination of listed numbers from the main site and gut feeling for the rest. However the entire purpose for this thread is to make the chart less feeling and more fact.
As for the ST/SW speeds I have it at 15/75 more than half the lists numbers are between them how much more of a difference do you want? While I may need to knock down the number for 40k and the Gateverse speeds are kind of off and may need to be recalibrated, however I can only count tech the faction makes so I can't count the ZPM extra galactic speeds just the normal hyperdrive speeds.

Well, to start off with, according to the main site, the firepower disparity between the Empire and Federation is eight orders of magnitude in favour of SW (300 million GW power generation v 3.6 GW), even disregarding the fact that the SW figure is that of the light turbolasers on an Acclamator class transport, against the Enterprise-D's main phaser array. The disparity in FTL speed is similarly between four and six orders of magnitude different (10-100 million C v 5000 C). This doesn't take into account tactical maneuver, shield strength, the SD's TIE wing, or a whole host of things relating to one on one starship combat. Not to mention that the Empire can pump out way more Star Destroyers than the Federation can Galaxies, although this obviously factors into the industrial capacity calculation, which ultimately makes all discussion of SW v ST 1v1 combat pointless in the larger scheme.

Similar complaints for all your other arbitrary numbers - especially compared with modern day earth, which is many many orders of magnitude less powerful than SW, WH40 et al. For this scale to be even slightly useful, you'll probably want to use a logarithmic instead of linear scale (i.e. a ranking of 2 means you are 10 (or some other base, but 10 is most common) times more powerful than an opponent with 1). At the moment however, this is wildly inaccurate.

[Solauren]

How About SOmething like this, in a spreadsheet format

Universe: Star Wars
Maximum FTL Speed: 45000 LYR/HR (Source: Revenge of the Sith)
Maximum Ship Mounted Firepower: Unknown (i.e Biggest ship Gun)
Average Ship Mounted Firepower: 200 Gigatons (Source: Empire Strikes Back)
etc
etc
etc

With a final column for a conversion into a 'lowest common demoniator' (i.e Megatons for Firepower, x SPeed of Light for FTL, etc)

[SapphireFox]

OK...then are you suggesting some kind of order of magnitude scale or some kind of logarithmic one? If a logarithmic one what ratio do you then suggest?

Tho in retrospect an OOM scale might be better for quick reference at least for space and ground combat. Industrial output would need some kind of new figure than the 1-100 and Speed if you still want to discard the previous method.... how about Light Years Per Hour or listing of times c. Mind you if this is done then the scale is different for almost every category.

[SapphireFox]

How About SOmething like this, in a spreadsheet format

Universe: Star Wars
Maximum FTL Speed: 45000 LYR/HR (Source: Revenge of the Sith)
Maximum Ship Mounted Firepower: Unknown (i.e Biggest ship Gun)
Average Ship Mounted Firepower: 200 Gigatons (Source: Empire Strikes Back)
etc
etc
etc

With a final column for a conversion into a 'lowest common demoniator' (i.e Megatons for Firepower, x SPeed of Light for FTL, etc)

I can do this but this is starting to feel like a rehash of the main page but for all Sci-Fi universes instead.

[Shadow6]

OK...then are you suggesting some kind of order of magnitude scale or some kind of logarithmic one? If a logarithmic one what ratio do you then suggest?

Tho in retrospect an OOM scale might be better for quick reference at least for space and ground combat. Industrial output would need some kind of new figure than the 1-100 and Speed if you still want to discard the previous method.... how about Light Years Per Hour or listing of times c. Mind you if this is done then the scale is different for almost every category.

Well, no, you just need to pick one universe as your baseline for all categories. Then, the difference between two universes is the orders of magnitude between them. An 'order of magnitude' scale is just a base 10 logarithm, which is probably easiest to do in your head, because the difference between two scores is the difference in the number of trailing zeros in the actual figure. For a comparison, you don't really need units, as long as you are consistant across all the universes you are measuring.

The real trick is actually compiling the meaning of all these scales.* It isn't that hard to say that the SW universe has, on average, 100 million times the firepower in space combat, but this doesn't mean they are 100 million times better. Once you have superiority in space, ground combat is irrelevant. Sufficent strategic speed darwfs the space combat advantage, unless the enemy has industrial capacity to maintain standing fleets near their assets.

*Well, in some cases. A quote directly from canon saying "this ship fires 20 200 petaton cannon shots per second" is easy. Vague quotes don't help, visual evidence can be difficult to quantify, different sources contradict each other. A comprehensive ranking will take a lot of effort and the end result would be of doubtful use in actually saying which side would win except in cases of supreme dominance.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

This thread is why I try not to directly involve myself in versus debates.

D13 is why I'll still take the time to read through it.

My only question is: Why does this need to be done at all? There's no point in quantifying an entire universe unless you're using that entire universe in a fight. But if you do that, then you also have to take into considerations the motives of the supposedly intelligent beings in those universes, and explain why they would be going at each others' throats. Which then opens up the can of worms that is trying to determine just how far you can change someone's motives before they become a different person/force/entity entirely, and thus brings the whole thing out-of-universe, making the quantification useless.

[SapphireFox]

Alright I am halfway done with the version 2 of the chart and the revisions and citations. Is there any good way to show a spreadsheet on SDN because damned if trying to replicate it with text is a bitch and a half.

Mind you now that the version 2 revisions are...
A. No longer contains a semi arbitrary 1-100 scale for displaying value. It now contains real world units.
B. Where a value is given a source citation is found alongside.
C. Is subdivided into factions like the Empire, Earthforce, Federation, and SGC. The only one not subdivided is Our Earth.
D. Several categories now contain a Max and Average groupings for reference and ease of use. These include bolt firepower groupings and FTL Speed.

[RedImperator]

As for the low tech sci-fi if it's technology can not equal or exceed modern day earth than it doesn't get placed on the scale. (and personally if the tech isn't better or equal to today then it is not sci-fi IMO)

Roffle. Right, because science fiction is about "tech level" and not the effect of science and technology on society. By this logic, a story about mechanical computers radically transforming Victorian England isn't science fiction because a Pentium III would run circles around them.

[Stark]

The Difference Engine was cool.

So does this futile exercise have a role? I mean if I use it to look up Rocket Jocks Unleashed and see that the Hummus empire is rated crap for FTL will I look stupid when I don't know any of the details, like their near-infinite range, uninterceptibility and trashcan-sized ships?

[NecronLord]

I would like to see reasonable estimates with justifications for rankings from people in this thread or I'm going to lock it.

[SapphireFox]

Ok this is what I have citations already written down for. It is not complete yet by any stretch of the imagination but I am doing research to fill in the blanks

Universe (Faction)/ Space Combat Max Fp (Source)/ Space Combat Avareage Fp (Source)/ Ground Combat Max Fp (Source)/ Ground Combat Average Fp (Source)/ Max FTL Speed (Source)/ Average FTL Speed (Source)


Star Wars (Galactic Empire)/ 1e38J (ANH)/ 8.36e20J or 200 Gigatons (Atoc ICS)/ 130kt to 3.4MT (ESB)/ 0.2T (Phantom Menace)/ 10,000,000c (ANH Novel)/ 1,200,000c (Dark Force Rising)


Star Trek (Federation)/ 64MT (TNG TM)/ 400GW (Survivors)/ 1.05MW (The Mind's Eye)/????/ 7912c (ST encycolpedia)/ ~3333c (Voyager pilot ep)


Cultureverse (Culture) ????/????/????/?????/????/????/


Modern Earth/25MT (SS-18/R36M)/475kt (Minuteman III)/50MT (Czar Bomba)/3,504J (7.62 NATO)/N/A / N/A


Babylon 5 (Earthforce)/2MT (In the Beginning)/40TW (Severed Dreams)/????/????/????/????


NuBSG (Colonials) /50MT (Pilot Ep)/????/????/????/????/?????


Stargateverse (SGC pre Asgaurd core) ????/????/????/????/????/????/


Warhammer 40K (IoM)/ 21PT (BFG)/5GT (Space Hulk 1st Ed)/????/????/365,000c (IG codex 2nd ED)/~25,000c (IG codex 3rd ED)

[SapphireFox]

Did you really expect a half finished chunk of notes to fully consistent yet, did you? Its only the bloody citation and category list. Hell I barely had time to make the speed lists consistent with each other let alone anything else.

[lordofchange13]

Babylon 5 should be above star trek. they have superior FTL engines, the mimbari have insane weapon power levels, the vorlons got mini death stars. plus it all takes place close to the present then star trek, so you got to give them points for advancing fast.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Roffle. Right, because science fiction is about "tech level" and not the effect of science and technology on society. By this logic, a story about mechanical computers radically transforming Victorian England isn't science fiction because a Pentium III would run circles around them.

Quiet you. We don't have time for creating interesting stories, sci-fi is about power levels and canon! I'm going to create a universe where the average person has the ability to reset time, destroy galaxies, and physically reach through the walls of reality to drag in other genres and smash them between his manly balls. Once this 'average person' in my universe takes the Death Star, the entire Q Continuum, the Culture and the Xeelee, puts them all in the same galaxy and crushes them all with a Teabag From Hell, my sci-fi power will be, by definition, the best and most loved.

But honestly, why? What's the point of all this? Attempting to quantify powers under broad generalizations with no allowances made to individual characters, motivations, cultures and established storylines is about as entertaining as throwing two rats in a cage, shooting them up with adrenaline and seeing which one survives. Science fiction is a form of fiction, and fiction has and always will be about compelling characters and storylines, not about who has the biggest penis gun.

[Batman]

Babylon 5 should be above star trek. they have superior FTL engines

Really. Could you quantify that, please?

the mimbari have insane weapon power levels

Insane is I'm afraid not an acknowledged unit of measurement. If you could provide some SI numbers instead perhaps?

the vorlons got mini death stars.

That don't do anywhere near Death Star level damage and work by Valen knows what principle so their actual firepower is completely up for grabs.

plus it all takes place close to the present then star trek, so you got to give them points for advancing fast.

B5 takes place a grand total of-um, 5 years before TOS? How about no? Oh, and how about ENT? They essentially have the same technology as
the rest of Trek and guess what-ENT happens a century before B5.

[dworkin]

Sorry but doesn't work like that.
Verne, 20,000 Leagues under the sea, we have essentially that tech today. (general fiction) Journey to the center of the earth, no tech that was not available to his time let alone ours. (Fantasy) From the Earth to the Moon, IIRC Giant cannon launches to the moon while there have been attempts to launch a payload into orbit with cannons it has yet to be achieved (Science Fiction)

Wells, War of the Worlds, martian tech is not yet buildable in the modern world {though high power laser might = heatray} (Science Fiction) The Time Machine, not possible with modern tech (Science Fiction) The First Men in the Moon, again not possible with modern tech (Science Fiction) The Island of Dr. Moreau, ability to make beast men not yet possible (Science Fiction)

As for the Roy Lewis work I haven't read it so I can't comment yet.
However more to the point is the that if the tech is beneath the low end in the earlier scale or fit at least 3 of the 4 categories in the new one why would you expect that it would end up on the list?

It does work like that you imbecile. Moreau, Nemo, Cavor operate within a Victorian tech base. While their inventions are amazing they are still limited by that base. Moreau gets fairly limited anesthesia for example. Cavor doesn't benefit from a modern tracking network.

What is the Space Combat Rating of Verne's Cannon?
The Ground (or Sea) Combat Rating of the Nautilus?
The FTL Speed of the Time Machine?
The Industrial Capacity of Victorian England?

As for why they should be included. Well, they're SF settings you imbecile. And there's more than you think.

For example, how would Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen do operating in Drake's Civil Government on Bellevue?

[SapphireFox]

Babylon 5 should be above star trek. they have superior FTL engines, the mimbari have insane weapon power levels, the vorlons got mini death stars. plus it all takes place close to the present then star trek, so you got to give them points for advancing fast.

I'm not too sure about that according to this site http://www.b5tech.com/oldb5tech/misctec ... drive.html the best one should expect without a gravitic type drive is around 4565c and with the revised format only earthforce tech is being calculated for at this time.

[SapphireFox]

It does work like that you imbecile. Moreau, Nemo, Cavor operate within a Victorian tech base. While their inventions are amazing they are still limited by that base. Moreau gets fairly limited anesthesia for example. Cavor doesn't benefit from a modern tracking network.

What is the Space Combat Rating of Verne's Cannon?
The Ground (or Sea) Combat Rating of the Nautilus?
The FTL Speed of the Time Machine?
The Industrial Capacity of Victorian England?

As for why they should be included. Well, they're SF settings you imbecile. And there's more than you think.

For example, how would Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen do operating in Drake's Civil Government on Bellevue?

If you believe that they should be included in the chart so strongly then why don't you quantify them for the respective categories and post them for addition to the chart. After all I did state earlier that I was seeking others to do just that for universes they were more familiar with than I.

But honestly, why? What's the point of all this? Attempting to quantify powers under broad generalizations with no allowances made to individual characters, motivations, cultures and established storylines is about as entertaining as throwing two rats in a cage, shooting them up with adrenaline and seeing which one survives. Science fiction is a form of fiction, and fiction has and always will be about compelling characters and storylines, not about who has the biggest penis gun.

I am trying to make a quick comparative fact sheet that might hopefully be something useful not only to myself but perhaps for other debaters as well. Well fiction might be more about the story what you say is more important is not something that quantifies well if at all. This is merely a chart it's not supposed to be a dissertation on literary value.

[Stofsk]

Babylon 5 should be above star trek. they have superior FTL engines, the mimbari have insane weapon power levels, the vorlons got mini death stars. plus it all takes place close to the present then star trek, so you got to give them points for advancing fast.

lolwhut

If you're going to reference the Minbari then I'll reference the Borg; if you're going to reference the Vorlons and other First Ones then I'll reference the motherfucking Q.

Earth Alliance has at most, a couple dozen planets and small fleet sizes (probably dozens as I seem to remember that many Omegas orbiting Mars in 'Endgame') while the Federation has at least a thousand planets and spreading out (Kirk in 'Metamorphosis') and seems to have a fleet size numbered in the hundreds to low thousands (thank you DS9). EarthForce has no artificial gravity, its engines are slow while impulse drives can push up to 1/3 to 1/2 of c, EarthForce has no shield technology (say hello to gamma radiation from all those photon torpedoes), no teleporters, structural integrity magic field, no replicators, and Trek's medical technology exceed it as well. FTL is also shit compared to Warp drive, which too many people seem to disregard for no valid reason I can discern. Only big ships in B5 can generate a jump point, unless you're talking about White Stars and similar high-tech ships which very few people in B5 even have access to; in Trek, a small shuttle has warp drives. Speeds are bit difficult to quantify. IIRC the White Star takes a day or two to get from B5 - which is in Episilon Eridani - to earth, less than a dozen light years away. The same trip done by the Enterprise in TOS at warp factor 8.4 would take less than an hour. (it travelled almost 1000 light years in less than half a day at warp 8.4 in 'That Which Survives' and travelled to the edge of the galaxy three times throughout the show; of course in TNG, the warp speeds were nerfed so that's a different story, but even then they'd be roughly equal with each other)

So yeah, no.