Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

[ray245]

(Reuters) - Germany's attempt to create a multicultural society has "utterly failed," Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday, adding fuel to a debate over immigration and Islam polarising her conservative camp.

Speaking to a meeting of young members of her Christian Democrats (CDU), Merkel said allowing people of different cultural backgrounds to live side by side without integrating had not worked in a country that is home to some four million Muslims.

"This (multicultural) approach has failed, utterly failed," Merkel told the meeting in Potsdam, south of Berlin.

Merkel faces pressure from within her CDU to take a tougher line on immigrants who don't show a willingness to adapt to German society and her comments appeared intended to pacify her critics.

She said too little had been required of immigrants in the past and repeated her usual line that they should learn German in order to get by in school and have opportunities on the labour market.

The debate over foreigners in Germany has shifted since former central banker Thilo Sarrazin published a book accusing Muslim immigrants of lowering the intelligence of German society.

Sarrazin was censured for his views and dismissed from the Bundesbank, but his book proved highly popular and polls showed a majority of Germans agreed with the thrust of his arguments.

Merkel has tried to accommodate both sides of the debate, talking tough on integration but also telling Germans that they must accept that mosques have become part of their landscape.

She said on Saturday that the education of unemployed Germans should take priority over recruiting workers from abroad, while noting Germany could not get by without skilled foreign workers.

In a weekend newspaper interview, her Labour Minister Ursula von der Leyen (CDU) raised the possibility of lowering barriers to entry for some foreign workers in order to fight the lack of skilled workers in Europe's largest economy.

"For a few years, more people have been leaving our country than entering it," she told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. "Wherever it is possible, we must lower the entry hurdles for those who bring the country forward."

The German Chamber of Industry and Commerce (DIHK) says Germany lacks about 400,000 skilled workers.

Yet Horst Seehofer, chairman of the Christian Social Union (CSU), the CDU's sister party, has rejected any relaxation of immigration laws and said last week there was no room in Germany for more people from "alien cultures.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE69F19T20101016

[Chaotic Neutral]

What is it with conservatives that makes them hate immigrants?

[Zixinus]

Conservatives usually want to preserve nationalistic values that include ethnicity. Add a significant chunk of other ethnicity and you not only have change but a perceivable treat to national identity.

[JME2]

Conservatives usually want to preserve nationalistic values that include ethnicity. Add a significant chunk of other ethnicity and you not only have change but a perceivable treat to national identity.

And of course, the wonderful irony is that we're all technically immigrants, that our distant ancestors migrated across the continents and the world.

[Serafina]

What is it with conservatives that makes them hate immigrants?

Because it DOESN'T work. The "multiculturalism" she is referring to basically describes immigrants living in their own quarter without any contact to non-immigrants. That approach simply doesn't achieve any immigration - people do not learn the language or to accept the mainstream culture.
And YES, successful immigration requires an immigrant to accept/tolerate mainstream culture. Otherwise, actual conflict is inevitable.

She is NOT against immigrants having their own culture, she is against that culture being completely isolated from the rest of Germany.
Also, note that our president recently stated that Islam is, by now, part of german culture.

[Zixinus]

And of course, the wonderful irony is that we're all technically immigrants, that our distant ancestors migrated across the continents and the world.

That is an irony lost to them, as they generally wave the issue away or insert legends. For example, in Hungarian nationalism teaches children medieval legends about trades for the land and so on, usually devoting little more than footnote or less about the people that lived before. It is lucky if so much as the idea of them being unnoteworthy barberians being there.

The idea that people way back trough history were far from an uniform culture even before the appearence of nationalism or that their anchestors were just usual peasents or murdering barberians usually doesn't enter them.

Never underestimate people's ability to delude themselves.

[Big Phil]

And of course, the wonderful irony is that we're all technically immigrants, that our distant ancestors migrated across the continents and the world.

That is an irony lost to them, as they generally wave the issue away or insert legends. For example, in Hungarian nationalism teaches children medieval legends about trades for the land and so on, usually devoting little more than footnote or less about the people that lived before. It is lucky if so much as the idea of them being unnoteworthy barberians being there.

The idea that people way back trough history were far from an uniform culture even before the appearence of nationalism or that their anchestors were just usual peasents or murdering barberians usually doesn't enter them.

Never underestimate people's ability to delude themselves.

Take your self-righteous tangent and shove it up your ass. Serafina already explained exactly what Merkel was referring to, and precisely why it has failed. Take a look at the United States, by way of contrast. Italian, Irish, Eastern European, Southern European, Asian, and Hispanic immigrants have all (for the most part) successfully integrated into the greater WASP culture, bringing along elements of their old societies with them, whether it be food, music, dance, elements of language, etc. Or did you think that most Americans dined at Mexican, Italian, Greek, Ethopian, Moroccan, or Chinese restaurants 100 years ago (or even 30 years ago)?

Integration and assimilation is necessary for immigrants to be successful in a new culture. That doesn't mean that they have to stop speaking their native language and adopt every single facet of their new society, but living in ethnic ghettos and refusing to assimilate or participate in society at large is not healthy.

[Bakustra]

You're misusing terms there. Assimilation refers to the attempted or total eradication of the migrant's culture, while integration is considered a merging of the two cultures.

I'd like to see the evidence behind this myself- apparently the annual report by the Advisory Council on Integration and Migration found here (PDF) indicates that integration is very successful in Germany, according to this article. But the report is in German, and my German is practically nonexistent.

[Zixinus]

Take your self-righteous tangent and shove it up your ass

How about you take your high-horse and go to an optician instead? I wasn't responding to Serafina or what she said, nor commenting. Otherwise, I would have quoted her, not JME2.

[Serafina]

You're misusing terms there. Assimilation refers to the attempted or total eradication of the migrant's culture, while integration is considered a merging of the two cultures.

I'd like to see the evidence behind this myself- apparently the annual report by the Advisory Council on Integration and Migration found here (PDF) indicates that integration is very successful in Germany, according to this article. But the report is in German, and my German is practically nonexistent.

Well, i wouldn't call it "very successful", and the report doesn't call it that, either.
Rather, its says that Germany is doing better than many other countries (i.e. France), but still has a lot of room for improvement. Specifically, immigrants still have worse education on average, which results in further problems.

The core points:
1: Most immigrants are pleased with immigration policies and say that their situation improved during the last 10 years.
2: Immigrants and "natives" (better word?) have good relations with each other. They do not claim special rights based on their respective cultures and accept each other. Most people on both sides have a wish for a better immigration policy (more language education etc.)
3: Integration does not fail generally, but on specific issues (work, school, neighborhood). Overall, immigrants and "natives" have a positive view of it.
4: Education remains problematic. "Natives" of higher social classes tend to avoid schools with significant numbers of immigrants, those are perceived to be worse than other schools mainly due to reasons of language (immigrants are perceived as being bad at speaking german).
5: Both immigrants and "natives" are not well-informed about current immigration politics, and the latter are ironically more informed about it than the former.
6: Both immigrants and "natives" trust each other regarding issues of immigration.

Well, that's the first part of that report in a nutshell. I mostly agree with it - while there are people opposed to immigration/integration on both sides, they are generally a minority (tough those radicals can have a local majority). The major issue is not hostility towards immigrants by the "native" population, but rather the fact that the government (and sometimes the immigrants) is not doing enough to truly integrate them. A major issue here is language and education, both are connected:
First, second and some third-generation immigrants tend to be worse at speaking german, which can be problematic in school. Furthermore, the schools are often not doing enough to fix that problem (and it should be fixed before school anyway) - if you are worse at german than the others in first grade, odds are good that you will still be worse in fifth or eight grade. That problem can also affect familiarity with german culture in some cases, which can lead to other problems.
I think the latter is often used to accuse Germany of being "racist" because we want to preserve our culture. That's not true - the issue here is not that we want to assimilate people and get rid of their culture, the issue here is that those people can be worse off than others because they lack knowledge that others have. Their own culture is not the issue, merely their unfamiliarity with other cultures.

Bottom line: The main avenue in current immigration politics is to improve the chances and opportunities for immigrants. The main problem is that they lack knowledge about the major language and culture in Germany, which is an obvious disadvantage when interacting with others. That has nothing to do with "cultural supremacy", it's merely a fact - you interact better with others if you know their culture and language, and the majority of people in Germany happen to have german language and culture. The solution is not to get rid of their languages or cultures, but to offer them more opportunities to get familiar with another one.

[Thanas]

You're misusing terms there. Assimilation refers to the attempted or total eradication of the migrant's culture, while integration is considered a merging of the two cultures.

I'd like to see the evidence behind this myself- apparently the annual report by the Advisory Council on Integration and Migration found here (PDF) indicates that integration is very successful in Germany, according to this article. But the report is in German, and my German is practically nonexistent.

That report by itself is pretty worthless, as it's main indicator seem to be the feelings of people, not their actual situation.

The real problem are the turkish immigrants in Germany, of whom only 10% or so manage to get the highest school education degrees and of whom nearly 30-40% leave school without any degree at all, thus being destined for permanent unemployment.

[Thanas]

Take your self-righteous tangent and shove it up your ass

How about you take your high-horse and go to an optician instead? I wasn't responding to Serafina or what she said, nor commenting. Otherwise, I would have quoted her, not JME2.

So why did you go into that rant about conservatives then if that was not connected to the people in the article?

[Bakustra]

Bottom line: The main avenue in current immigration politics is to improve the chances and opportunities for immigrants. The main problem is that they lack knowledge about the major language and culture in Germany, which is an obvious disadvantage when interacting with others. That has nothing to do with "cultural supremacy", it's merely a fact - you interact better with others if you know their culture and language, and the majority of people in Germany happen to have german language and culture. The solution is not to get rid of their languages or cultures, but to offer them more opportunities to get familiar with another one.

But that seems to be at odds with Merkel's rhetoric, which appears to put the blame on immigrants refusing to integrate rather than the government not doing enough to help.

You're misusing terms there. Assimilation refers to the attempted or total eradication of the migrant's culture, while integration is considered a merging of the two cultures.

I'd like to see the evidence behind this myself- apparently the annual report by the Advisory Council on Integration and Migration found here (PDF) indicates that integration is very successful in Germany, according to this article. But the report is in German, and my German is practically nonexistent.

That report by itself is pretty worthless, as it's main indicator seem to be the feelings of people, not their actual situation.

The real problem are the turkish immigrants in Germany, of whom only 10% or so manage to get the highest school education degrees and of whom nearly 30-40% leave school without any degree at all, thus being destined for permanent unemployment.

It seems to belie there being a major problem with recalcitrant immigrants, since majorities favor increased immigration, though.

[Serafina]

That report by itself is pretty worthless, as it's main indicator seem to be the feelings of people, not their actual situation.

The real problem are the turkish immigrants in Germany, of whom only 10% or so manage to get the highest school education degrees and of whom nearly 30-40% leave school without any degree at all, thus being destined for permanent unemployment.

Just what i said.
I think the major reason here is language - if you are not familiar with the language you are taught in, then it will be much harder to be successful. It's still possible, but much, much harder - everyone who spent a year on a school exchange will notice that, and those who do are normally already very good at school and with that foreign language.

I already said that, so let me elaborate on the reasons:
-Many immigrants do not learn any german at home. Obviously true for first-generation immigrants (who grew up in a foreign country), often for second-degree immigrants and sometimes for third-degree ones. The latter two could be significantly improved if they are less cultural isolated, the former by offering good, cheap (free) education in german.
-Not enough is done to teach the german language to people who did not grow up with it. For children, such education starts when they go to school - and even there it's not always true. It should start in Kindergarten or even earlier, when children are still very good at learning languages. For adults, courses are often too short and/or unprofessional - that results from attempts to keep them cheap.
-Cultural isolation still exists. While there are fewer and fewer quarters which are solely inhabited by immigrants, they still exist. If you do not use a language regularly, you won't get better at it.
-A minority of immigrants wants to isolate themselves - they do not visit language courses unless they are mandatory, and make no real effort of integrating. While they are a small minority, their existence muddies immigration debates (kinda like welfare frauds in welfare debates).
-In order to keep familiar with their own culture, many immigrants have to resort to cultural isolation. For example, there are few Imams (islamic preachers) who preach in German (tough that has just started to change). This is a missed opportunity to learn the german language.

But that seems to be at odds with Merkel's rhetoric, which appears to put the blame on immigrants refusing to integrate rather than the government not doing enough to help.

Well, as i said above, there are immigrants who do not want to integrate. Merkel might have a point (i have no real statistics whether they exist in significant numbers). However, i think it's more "do it yourself, it's not the governments job" - an usual conservative point of view. There is certainly some truth to it - if you really want to, you do not need a government program. However, i think it overlooks the fact that better immigration is better for everyone, just like raising the general standard of living/education level is good for everyone.

Merkel is definitely NOT saying anything like this:

Conservatives usually want to preserve nationalistic values that include ethnicity. Add a significant chunk of other ethnicity and you not only have change but a perceivable treat to national identity.

She is not afraid that german culture will be destroyed, or any such bullshit.

Edited twice for clarification

[Thanas]

But that seems to be at odds with Merkel's rhetoric, which appears to put the blame on immigrants refusing to integrate rather than the government not doing enough to help.

It's both in reality, but Merkel really does not want to highlight her own failure, seeing as how her party was instrumental over the past 30 years in developing the failed policy, simply by being the majority party for that time, and by opposing a lot of (sensible) reform policies.

It seems to belie there being a major problem with recalcitrant immigrants, since majorities favor increased immigration, though.

Yes, but it does not say immigration from where, though. For example - note analogy here, but I just use it to illustrate - people will definitely support more immigration from other EU countries or Russia or so. But ask them if they want more turks from Anatolia and they'll quickly say no. For example, another recent study said that less than 20% of Germans feels comfortable with Turkish neighbours (reasons cited were generally macho culture, unemployed, disruptive influences etc) while the vast majority had no problem with Asians, EU or even African immigrants.

It is true that very few turkish immigrants really oppose immigration, but not a lot of them seem to feel the need to do much for it either. There are two million of them in Germany, but guess how many become citizens each year? Only 25k or so, meaning that less than half of the total number (around 800k) actually have a German passport. However, even worse is the abysmal education they receive.

[Broomstick]

Multiculturalism isn't effortless.

The US holds itself up as a multicultural society although some of our missteps are quite well known. We have certainly had problems with immigrant groups in the past, and conflict between those already here and newcomers.

For sure, isolating people into ethnic enclaves is not good over the long term. We've found that out the hard way. That is why when, for instance the US brought in a lot of Hmong in the 1970's, or groups of the Sudanese "Lost Boys" more recently, they have been dispersed and not shuffled into ghettos. Of course, immigrants need contact with other immigrants of their own sort, for those just arrived it's an important social support and, in the case of the elderly or those who left their homes due to oppression, that support is vital. But they also need to interact with other people, different people. In large cities you will have immigrants tending to gravitate to certain neighborhoods - "Chinatown", "Little Italy", etc. - but it's important that not only immigrants legally live anywhere they want, it's also important for the larger society to allow that. One of the great failures of American multiculturalism is how blacks and Natives were forcibly segregated for so long. It's taking a long time to undo the damage caused by that, and no, electing a black man President doesn't make everything totally OK, there are still huge problems.

If the Irish, Italians, or {insert ethnic group of your choice here} seem well integrated in many cases it is because of the passage of time. The Irish largely were not welcomed into the US in the mid 19th Century. Italians, Greeks, Poles, and lots of other European sub-groups outside of "English" (not "British" but specifically English) and "German" have had to struggle for acceptance in US society. We forget that, because it occurred generations ago. As recently as my parents' childhood, though, you would still see businesses post "No blacks or Irish need apply". That's what the European immigrants went through, anyone from anywhere else had an even harder time.

Now, my visit to Europe was nearly 20 years ago, and I'm sure some things have changed, but it was my impression that any given country or region in Europe tended to be more culturally homogeneous than a comparable unit of people in the US. That's neither good nor bad, it's just the way history worked out. France has been and still is overwhelmingly French, I presume the Germans heavily dominate Germany, and so on. Yes, ancient peoples were displaced in favor of today's, but that happened a long time ago. I wonder if US (and some other societies, such as Canada's or Brazil's, for example) have developed cultural traits in the mainstream cultural that makes is easier to both tolerate newcomers and for newcomers to integrate into the society. Frankly, I am not conversant enough with European cultures to do more than wonder, I am no authority in them.

Take language, for instance. Serafina is correct, learning the mainstream language really is vital to integration/multiculturalism. I wonder, though, how tolerant Germany is of "broken" German - here in the US there is a certain level of tolerance for people who clearly learned English after adulthood, even though they don't always speak it well, have odd grammatical quirks, and may also have thick accents. We recognize that someone may be extremely intelligent even if they "sound stupid" due to imperfect English skills. How tolerant are Germans of that sort of thing? Of course, in some areas you must have excellent language skills, but I'm speaking of interactions such as grocery shopping or purchasing a car. If society is intolerant of a particular accent it can make things very difficult for an immigrant.

(The intolerance need not be against all immigrants - a country might have greater tolerance for those with, say, a British accent than a Chinese one, as an example divorced from the situation in Germany.)

Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example, still has a very thick accent that many of my fellow Midwesterners find hard to understand despite hearing him movies for decades (his grammar and vocabulary are standard American, usually, though 25 years ago he wasn't nearly as fluent). Nonetheless, he's governor of California. Would someone with an equally thickly accented German have a reasonable chance of comparable public office in Germany? I don't know. I would like to think so, and it would certainly be to Germany's credit, but that's one of the "tests" I'd use to see if a culture is multicultural or not. To be honest, I'm doubtful if in MY society someone with a thick Arabic accent would be able to hold that high a public office, because German immigrants tend to be more accepted than Arab ones, particularly since 2001 (although the governor of my state is at least 1/4 Arab - but not a fact he advertises and he's third generation and thoroughly Americanized)

On the other hand, the US recognizes that not everyone who comes to the US is going to achieve a high level of fluency, particularly older individuals. The emphasis for the elders is learning sufficient English to function in society, it is the children where full fluency is emphasized, or at least it was, through the public schools. Most immigrants to the US have gone to public schools where they had to learn English and had to associate with other types of people. The stratification of education in the US I view as a harm to society, with the affluent (of all ethnicities) removing themselves from public education and leaving only the poor and the new, and the decline of the important of public education and/or the tax base to support it. Anyhow - in the US, government accommodates those people who are unable to achieve fluency in certain key areas so that public safety and health can be satisfied, and many government services are offered in many languages. We have some roaring arguments about how far that should go (should all voting ballots be in English or not? If not, how many different languages?). It's doubtful that an adult immigrant is going to achieve full fluency (though it can happen and should be encouraged) but the children should be achieving it and if they're not there is something wrong.

In one sense a society could be called "multicultural" if they let the immigrants live in ghettos unmolested, but if said people were held to a lower strata of society by either law or custom then the term is a bit of a farce, they'll always be outsiders no matter how long the family lives there. If, in Germany, Turkish immigrants who do learn the language and culture can advance in eduction, business, politics, and every other facet of life then Germany could be on the road to being actually multicultural in a positive sense. Of course, that presupposes the immigrants want to integrate. Not everyone does. The Amish, for instance, are still an insular, German-speaking subgroup in the US, probably tolerated as much as they are because of their ethic of complete non-violence (they will not use force even in self-defense) and thus pretty harmless. They don't want to integrate. There have been times when jails filled up with Amish guys who refused to obey the law because those guys are amazingly stubborn at times.

It's a complex puzzle, and I can't imagine a multicultural society that doesn't have some friction between groups. It's human nature.

[bobalot]

What is it with conservatives that makes them hate immigrants?

Because it DOESN'T work. The "multiculturalism" she is referring to basically describes immigrants living in their own quarter without any contact to non-immigrants. That approach simply doesn't achieve any immigration - people do not learn the language or to accept the mainstream culture.
And YES, successful immigration requires an immigrant to accept/tolerate mainstream culture. Otherwise, actual conflict is inevitable.

She is NOT against immigrants having their own culture, she is against that culture being completely isolated from the rest of Germany.
Also, note that our president recently stated that Islam is, by now, part of german culture.

That is not "multiculturalism". Well, at least not in Australia. Immigrants are still expected to integrate into Australian society and learn the language.

There is not a real expectation to learn the intricacies of Australian history and "culture" because:

1) Most Australians don't know or actually give a shit either.
2) Most Australians think others should mind their own business.

[Serafina]

Take language, for instance. Serafina is correct, learning the mainstream language really is vital to integration/multiculturalism. I wonder, though, how tolerant Germany is of "broken" German - here in the US there is a certain level of tolerance for people who clearly learned English after adulthood, even though they don't always speak it well, have odd grammatical quirks, and may also have thick accents. We recognize that someone may be extremely intelligent even if they "sound stupid" due to imperfect English skills. How tolerant are Germans of that sort of thing? Of course, in some areas you must have excellent language skills, but I'm speaking of interactions such as grocery shopping or purchasing a car. If society is intolerant of a particular accent it can make things very difficult for an immigrant.

In my experience (i am not an immigrant, but two of my oldest friends are), it's not too well tolerated - the higher you get in society, the worse it gets.

Actual broken german would mean that you don't get the grammar right, there are typical mistakes that are associated with immigrants and are quite blatant (anyone who tried to learn german should know them). It really does sound stupid, because the results will often be nonsensical. That's probably a problem with the language itself, but i don't say that society is not to blame here, too.
Merely having an accent (different pronunciation) is generally not too bad, but broken german will disqualify you for a lot of jobs (basically, anything that needs a mediocre education).
That's just another problem resulting from cultural isolation - your bad habits will be reinforced.

That is not "multiculturalism". Well, at least not in Australia. Immigrants are still expected to integrate into Australian society and learn the language.

There is not a real expectation to learn the intricacies of Australian history and "culture" because:

1) Most Australians don't know or actually give a shit either.
2) Most Australians think others should mind their own business.

Well, i think that's a translation-issue - in english, multiculturalism means something different than around here, apparently.

The expectation to learn some of the culture is similar to, say, immigrating to China or Japan. If you are not accustomed to the culture, you will just appear to be plain rude in some situations, even if you didn't plan to. It's not that bad, and i personally don't think it's much of an issue - language is much more important. Still, familiarity with german culture certainly won't hurt integration.

[hongi]

What is German culture? If I immigrated to Germany, what should I be expected to adopt?

[Stark]

Thanas seems to suggest that the percieved problems are much simpler than culture; simply the age-old standards of unemployment and disturbing the neighbourhood. That's exactly what racists conservatives say here, particularly about people from Africa or the Middle East.

[Serafina]

What is German culture? If I immigrated to Germany, what should I be expected to adopt?

Frankly - i have no idea . Ask Thanas, he's more german than me
I suppose certain details about how to be polite, what kind of contact you are supposed to share with your neighbors and various other stuff are parts of it, but if so then i can't really tell. As i said, i don't think it's the major issue here.

[Thanas]

What is German culture? If I immigrated to Germany, what should I be expected to adopt?

The values in the German constitution and the language- that is about it. You might want to pick up punctuality, self-discipline, concern for the privacy of others and a certain appreciation for the German Bildungskanon, but to be fair, I doubt most Germans have all four of those themselves. Really, constitution and language and you'll fit in fine. English usually is acceptable as well, as most Germans learn English, but probably won't serve you as well as German if you want to stay longer.

Thanas seems to suggest that the percieved problems are much simpler than culture; simply the age-old standards of unemployment and disturbing the neighbourhood. That's exactly what racists conservatives say here, particularly about people from Africa or the Middle East.

I'm going to ignore you equivocating me to a racist here and I am just going to ask you if the conservative arguments in your country have a basis in fact or not.

[Stark]

Given Australia's hostility to 'foreigners' it wouldn't surprise me if there was a basis in fact in a fashion, but I'm not sure Australia has the problem you describe with immigrants leaving school - probably because many of them are refugees or from the second world as opposed to a place like Turkey.

However, the seemingly minor issue of neighbourhood 'culture' might be more important than it sounds; white Australians seem taken aback by huge loud celebrations in their street (amusing given the Austrakian drinking and BBQ thing.

[Thanas]

However, the seemingly minor issue of neighbourhood 'culture' might be more important than it sounds; white Australians seem taken aback by huge loud celebrations in their street (amusing given the Austrakian drinking and BBQ thing.

Huh. That doesn't seem to be a problem in Germany, as far as I can tell. But I really wouldn't know what angers the German neighbours. My flat-neighbour is a member of the turkish youth culture but I get along fine with him (sometimes he hears techno in the middle of the night, but okay, nothing to get overly angry about).

[Stark]

Yeah, it seems like a very very suburban problem, and most people in Australia live in suburbs.

Are there any studies around why Turks are happy to move to Germany and be unemployed?