Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

[Serafina]

Yeah, it seems like a very very suburban problem, and most people in Australia live in suburbs.

Are there any studies around why Turks are happy to move to Germany and be unemployed?

Actually, IIRC (it's too late to look up studies, so blame me if i am wrong), there are actually more Turks emigrating from Germany than immigrating into Germany.
The main wave of turkish immigration was a couple of decades back, when there was still demand for cheap labor (and hence, immigrants would not be unemployed). Today, you mostly have two groups of turks:
-Second/Third generation, and a couple of relatives of them who moved here recently
-and religious conservatives who move out of Turkey, since they can find more conservative Turkish people in Germany

[Thanas]

Yeah, it seems like a very very suburban problem, and most people in Australia live in suburbs.

Are there any studies around why Turks are happy to move to Germany and be unemployed?

Most of them aren't new arrivals, but the sons and daughters of people who emigrated here in the 50-70s.

[Simon_Jester]

What is it with conservatives that makes them hate immigrants?

Because it DOESN'T work. The "multiculturalism" she is referring to basically describes immigrants living in their own quarter without any contact to non-immigrants. That approach simply doesn't achieve any immigration - people do not learn the language or to accept the mainstream culture.
And YES, successful immigration requires an immigrant to accept/tolerate mainstream culture. Otherwise, actual conflict is inevitable.

She is NOT against immigrants having their own culture, she is against that culture being completely isolated from the rest of Germany.
Also, note that our president recently stated that Islam is, by now, part of german culture.

There may be a translation issue at work here. When an English-speaker hears "multiculturalism has failed," that sounds a lot like "if you aren't a good little German, get the hell out." From what you're saying, that isn't exactly what Merkel meant, but it's very difficult to know that unless you not only speak German but are intimately familiar with contemporary German culture.

[Broomstick]

Take language, for instance. Serafina is correct, learning the mainstream language really is vital to integration/multiculturalism. I wonder, though, how tolerant Germany is of "broken" German - here in the US there is a certain level of tolerance for people who clearly learned English after adulthood, even though they don't always speak it well, have odd grammatical quirks, and may also have thick accents. We recognize that someone may be extremely intelligent even if they "sound stupid" due to imperfect English skills. How tolerant are Germans of that sort of thing? Of course, in some areas you must have excellent language skills, but I'm speaking of interactions such as grocery shopping or purchasing a car. If society is intolerant of a particular accent it can make things very difficult for an immigrant.

In my experience (i am not an immigrant, but two of my oldest friends are), it's not too well tolerated - the higher you get in society, the worse it gets.

Actual broken german would mean that you don't get the grammar right, there are typical mistakes that are associated with immigrants and are quite blatant (anyone who tried to learn german should know them). It really does sound stupid, because the results will often be nonsensical. That's probably a problem with the language itself, but i don't say that society is not to blame here, too.

Hard to say, as I don't know German. Here in the US, I was taught not to make fun of older immigrants with poor English and one should make allowances (up to a point) for those struggling with English. If some unintentionally humorous gaff is made, or worse yet, something inadvertently offensive is said, or something stupid sounding, one must assume it was an unintentional error and either ignore it or only discreetly inform the person of the error so it will not occur again.

Naturally, not everyone follows that rule, people being people, but that is held out as a standard to aspire to. From the sound of it, perhaps that is not so in Germany. Then again, English is in some ways (not all, of course) a very forgiving language, perhaps German is less so.

[Phantasee]

Amusingly I just saw Merkel on BBC explaining the exact same thing — she didn't mean that people who did not know German or German culture were unwelcome in Germany.

It's interesting to see Americans calling themselves multicultural, though. We've always learned that the US wasn't multicultural, but more of a melting pot where immigration only added a spice to the culture of the country, but did not shape it. The metaphor for Canadian multiculturalism was the mosaic - every new culture added something to the Canadian culture, and people were encouraged to share the best of themselves and their old country.

[Broomstick]

What is German culture? If I immigrated to Germany, what should I be expected to adopt?

Frankly - i have no idea . Ask Thanas, he's more german than me
I suppose certain details about how to be polite, what kind of contact you are supposed to share with your neighbors and various other stuff are parts of it, but if so then i can't really tell. As i said, i don't think it's the major issue here.

My experience is with France, not Germany, but I will offer an example of cultural difference:

Here in the US, people strike up casual conversations with total strangers. This is especially prevalent when traveling. Whether a bus going across town or a plane going across a continent, Americans tend to talk to the people next to them. And frequently these conversations can be highly personal in nature, or political or otherwise opening a potential for debate. When I used to travel on Amtrak in the US the lounge car was the social center - total strangers talking, playing cards, some guy with a guitar shows up and suddenly it's an impromptu sing-a-long. Americans think nothing of striking up a conversation with someone they just met, and indeed, many would think it rude NOT to make such small talk. Heck, back in the Amtrak days people who brought their lunch/dinner with them (common in coach) would start trading food, like kids at a lunch hour in school.

It wasn't like that when I was in France. Of course, you could address a fellow traveler for information - I frequently asked directions while there, me and my mediocre French, for example - but it was strictly on a data-acquisition basis. Once the information was exchanged pretty much the conversation ended. You didn't struck up a random conversation with total strangers. It seems the French would find that rude and highly intrusive. Also, inquires for information in France were usually couched in much more formal language than in the US.

Well, no wonder the each of the two groups tends to find the other rude!

Which is my classic example of how culture can differ between here and there and how, with the best of intentions, you can screw up. The Americans in France trying to be friendly by talking are causing offense, and the French in the US trying to be polite by not intruding are seen as arrogant and stand-offish.

I'd guess just about every time you cross between cultures there is the potential for similar sorts of inadvertent faux pas.

[Stark]

That's a stupid comparison; you're saying people talk to people like themselves with good language, whereas people don't want to talk to annoying tourists with bad language. What a fucking surprise?

In my experience, it's a size issue. Big cities like Paris have people that are introspective, but in smaller towns or cities (even down to the size of places like Brisbane) and people are a lot more open. It's probably a community issue.

[Phantasee]

I'll second the size angle: Edmontonians used to be a lot more open and friendly when I was younger than they are now. I've been taking public transit since grade 7, so ten years now. I've seen a marked change in the behaviour of people in Edmonton. The city has grown quite a bit, and the people have changed. Part of it is more "foreigners" from other places, which has influenced the next generation of native born Edmontonians. But get a bunch of Newfies in one place and you'll see shades of the old Edmonton again.

[Stark]

Yeah I've been in Brisbane as its changed from a really big country town to a super-developed urban city, and its much less 'friendly' now. My hometown is still the same. I think its based on the 'people in suits' density. The areas with younger people or less 'urban' areas are still open, but the older suburbs and the WASP areas are quite closed.

[Broomstick]

That's a stupid comparison; you're saying people talk to people like themselves with good language, whereas people don't want to talk to annoying tourists with bad language. What a fucking surprise?

The "surprise" is that on trains and buses the French don't talk to each other. Seriously, almost NO conversations going on when I rode mass transit in Paris (which is how I got around Paris) whereas in the US the train cars and buses would be full of non-stop yakking.

Outside of Paris people were still reserved. They spoke to the tourists, of course, but unless I was introduced to someone by a mutual acquaintance it was pretty much "hello, enjoy your stay, thanks for trying to speak French". If I was introduced "properly" the conversation was much less reserved.

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference between a bus full of strangers talking to each other and bus full of strangers who aren't talking to each other.

In the US going up to a total stranger and starting a conversation is perfectly acceptable and friendly. When I was in France it was, at best, a little strange/odd.

[Stark]

Wait, you're really characterising an entire country based on how they reacted to tourists harrassing them? If I go to America and see a bus full of people reading books or listening to music, clearly my anecdote defeats yours!

Even better, people not talking on public transport (odd only in your own terrifying mentality) is totally unrelated to reactions to cold calls; I can talk to whoever I want in Brisbane and if they're busy they'll have a chat, but they're not going to annoy me on a bus. Ooops.

That said, some parts of Brisbane now have too many Suitichlorians who don't care about anything but their next meeting, but I'm sure if I went to Wall Street and harassed people they'd be wonderful friendly sorts willing to sit down and discuss my modern art project.

[Uraniun235]

People not talking on public transit isn't even an oddity in every part of the US. I regularly rode both bus and light rail into and out of Portland, Oregon for a few years and people talking up strangers wasn't nearly so frequent as Broomstick makes it out to be. It wasn't bizarre when it occurred but it certainly didn't fill the cabin with conversation and an absence of conversation wasn't unusual.

That said I wouldn't think to extend my experience to the entire Portland-area public transit system or to other areas.

[Broomstick]

Wait, you're really characterising an entire country based on how they reacted to tourists harrassing them?

I'm not sure why you think I was a tourist "harassing" them. (Oddly enough, I was often asked if I was German while I was there - apparently I don't fit American stereotypes or something)

Nor was it based just on Paris - after Paris I traveled south to Clermont-Ferrand, passing through both small and large towns along the way via bus.

If I go to America and see a bus full of people reading books or listening to music, clearly my anecdote defeats yours!

One difference is that if an American is reading a book and you speak to him/her then he/she will feel obligated to exchange at least a few sentences with you. The French did not.

I have no idea of the etiquette of iPods - my trip predated that. In fact, it pretty much predated the Sony Walkman. And I have repeatedly cautioned that it was a quarter century ago, I don't really know how they are today.

Admit it Stark, you're just being contrary because you like to oppose me.

Even better, people not talking on public transport (odd only in your own terrifying mentality) is totally unrelated to reactions to cold calls; I can talk to whoever I want in Brisbane and if they're busy they'll have a chat, but they're not going to annoy me on a bus. Ooops.

I wasn't discussing cold calling, I was discussing mass transit etiquette. What makes you think one has anything to do with the other?

Oh, right - everyone is just exactly like Australians...

That said, some parts of Brisbane now have too many Suitichlorians who don't care about anything but their next meeting, but I'm sure if I went to Wall Street and harassed people they'd be wonderful friendly sorts willing to sit down and discuss my modern art project.

When I lived in Chicago and actually carried my artwork on the train I had some wonderful conversations with corporate "suits" who wanted to discuss it. Actually, I sold one on one trip. Yes, in general Americans on public conveyances are pretty friendly and open to talking, even the upper crust. You see, in the US talking to strangers while in a public place isn't seen as "harassment". Which sort of proves my point - in the US it's being friendly, in Starkland it's harassment.

[Broomstick]

People not talking on public transit isn't even an oddity in every part of the US. I regularly rode both bus and light rail into and out of Portland, Oregon for a few years and people talking up strangers wasn't nearly so frequent as Broomstick makes it out to be. It wasn't bizarre when it occurred but it certainly didn't fill the cabin with conversation and an absence of conversation wasn't unusual.

That said I wouldn't think to extend my experience to the entire Portland-area public transit system or to other areas.

There's also quite a distance between Portland and Chicago (although I hadn't yet been to Chicago when I traveled to France - I was still two years away from my first visit to Chicago). I don't know why anyone would be surprised that there are differences between the Midwest and Portland, Oregon way over in the Pacific Northwest.

Hey, it was an example and, like all things involving people, it's not a hard and fast rule. At 4 am on a commuter train going into Chicago you're more likely to hear snoring than conversation, that doesn't disprove the tendency of one group to be more chatty than another. I have no doubt there have been occasions in France of "party cars" on Metro trains, but I'm guessing it's a lot rarer than over here.

[Stark]

Guessing based on... what? People being uninterested in tourists? My friends from Paris tell me its a far less friendly city than Brisbane, and this is probably more related to its size than any unAmerican unfriendliness.

[Broomstick]

Sure - but my experience wasn't limited to Paris, I spent most of my time outside Paris. So... that doesn't explain the difference I noted between a town like Bourges or Clermont-Ferrand and comparable sized US cities.

Nor was it based on just how people reacted to me. With no spontaneous conversations at hand I wound up doing a lot of people watching. I didn't see spontaneous conversations between the French, either. So it wasn't just a matter of language or tourist/not-tourist.

[xt828]

Catching public transport in Brisbane I very rarely see people who don't already know each other having a conversation. Public transport - buses in particular - often has a library-like vibe of no talking allowed, and it'd be quite unusual to just start talking to some random.

That being said, all the Americans I've run into reckon that Australians are really friendly and willing to help, so maybe it's a perception thing.

[Cecelia5578]

I'm a veteran of all of the rail transportation systems in the SF Bay Area, and at least during commute hours, few people talk. I just think its common sense that that's not a very talkative time. People taking Caltrain to/from Giants games from the South Bay, or just about any rail system (BART/Caltrain/Muni Metro) on a Fri/Sat night will be hectic, but that's just freaking obvious.

Remind me again how people's talking habits on public transportation have anything to do with minorities and cultural assimilation in Germany?

[K. A. Pital]

I haven't heard a more stupid thing in years. There has been a stream of strangely idiotic statements from European leaders that "multiculturalism has failed". I wonder if that's just reckless talk or a more sinister trend, signifying a return to forced integration or expulsion ideas? Maybe not in Western Europe par se, but Eastern Europe has serious problems with the rise of far-right parties (Jobbik's success in Hungary immediately comes to mind). I can't say statements like this spoken from the more influential leaders of world powers like, say, Germany, are a good sign.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Naturally, not everyone follows that rule, people being people, but that is held out as a standard to aspire to. From the sound of it, perhaps that is not so in Germany. Then again, English is in some ways (not all, of course) a very forgiving language, perhaps German is less so.

A lot less so. If you screw up the gender of a noun in german for example, you can radically alter the meaning of a sentence. There are also a lot of similar words in german that if you screw up can make conversations very interesting.

Example: Ich bin ein Berliner... Kennedy referred to himself as a pastry.

Another example, from my High School german class

Student (not me): Herr Cole, habe ich mich beschnittet

Herr Cole smirks

Herr Cole: Wirklich? Mit was hast du beschnitten selbst?

Student: Ein Stück Papier

Herr Cole: Autsch! Das muss schmerzhaft gewesen.

What he intended to say was the verb Schnitt, which means to cut. So, "Herr Cole, I cut myself". What he actually said was "Herr Cole, I circumcised myself" by using the verb Beschneiden.

Herr Cole of course asked "what with" and remarked on how painful it must have been. He then explained the mistake after a very german round of Schadenfreude at the poor bastard's expense.

[Zed]

Example: Ich bin ein Berliner... Kennedy referred to himself as a pastry.

This is a myth.

[Serafina]

Example: Ich bin ein Berliner... Kennedy referred to himself as a pastry.

This is a myth.

Actually - that sentence could be interpreted as both (Berliner being both a pastry and inhabitant of the city of Berlin). It was, essentially, grammatically correct.

Getting a noun wrong rarely alters the meaning of a word, it's just a really obvious mistake. Compared to english, many more words in german have gendered nouns, and you can't always logically deduce it (why is the floor male while the ceiling is female?). Hence, it's a very common mistakes that needs lot's of experience to get rid of, since there is no rule behind it.
A couple of examples:
Cats are female, dogs are male, fish are male, crabs etc. are female, water is neutral
Plants in general are female, some types of plants are male, trees in general are male, specific types of tree (oak etc.) are female
and so on - you can't even rely on inanimate objects being neutral (e.g. a refrigerator is male, a heater is female). Hence, it's the most common mistake with the german language if you don't have a lot of experience with it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Actually - that sentence could be interpreted as both (Berliner being both a pastry and inhabitant of the city of Berlin). It was, essentially, grammatically correct.

I was always under the impression that while a Berliner is both, he should have said Ich bin Berliner. I did however just look it up, and the usual issue with referring to oneself using ein and implying being non-human is out the window, because he was speaking figuratively.

[Thanas]

Another example, from my High School german class

Student (not me): Herr Cole, habe ich mich beschnittet

Herr Cole smirks

Herr Cole: Wirklich? Mit was hast du beschnitten selbst?

Student: Ein Stück Papier

Herr Cole: Autsch! Das muss schmerzhaft gewesen.

What he intended to say was the verb Schnitt, which means to cut. So, "Herr Cole, I cut myself". What he actually said was "Herr Cole, I circumcised myself" by using the verb Beschneiden.

Herr Cole of course asked "what with" and remarked on how painful it must have been. He then explained the mistake after a very german round of Schadenfreude at the poor bastard's expense.

I really hope the conversation went differently, or otherwise Cole is not a good german speaker. He misses one pronoun and his sentence consctruction is wrong in the first sentence he said and he misses a verb in the last sentence he said.

[Thanas]

I haven't heard a more stupid thing in years. There has been a stream of strangely idiotic statements from European leaders that "multiculturalism has failed". I wonder if that's just reckless talk or a more sinister trend, signifying a return to forced integration or expulsion ideas? Maybe not in Western Europe par se, but Eastern Europe has serious problems with the rise of far-right parties (Jobbik's success in Hungary immediately comes to mind). I can't say statements like this spoken from the more influential leaders of world powers like, say, Germany, are a good sign.

Care to explain or are you just hyperventilating?