Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

[K. A. Pital]

No, I'm not "hyperventilating". However, I wonder what exactly has been a failure in Germany so that Merkel would need to make such a statement. Have issues similar to France or something manifested themselved in Germany to warrant such statements? Because immigrants living on their own in ghettoes has been a feature present even before Merkel's time. I remember walking through Frankfurt and seeing Turkish ghettoes, where people could hardly speak much German. But during that time nobody said "multiculturalism is failing".

[Thanas]

No, I'm not "hyperventilating". However, I wonder what exactly has been a failure in Germany so that Merkel would need to make such a statement. Have issues similar to France or something manifested themselved in Germany to warrant such statements? Because immigrants living on their own in ghettoes has been a feature present even before Merkel's time. I remember walking through Frankfurt and seeing Turkish ghettoes, where people could hardly speak much German. But during that time nobody said "multiculturalism is failing".

As has been explained in this thread, the reaction of the German political establishment to that kind of thing has been to stick its fingers in its ears for several decades and do nothing out of fear of political correctness or due to laziness/racism/politcal ideology.

It is only when studies resurfaced describing the situation in the Ghettos etc, as well as honor killings happening in Germany (yes, honor killings as in people knifing each other in the streets or parents ordering hits on their daughters) that the politicians have started paying attention. Fast forward three years of studies being done and we are now at this point.

[K. A. Pital]

Wow, honor killings?! I never thought Germany had it this bad. Truly an atmosphere of silence surrounded all this shit for years.

[Thanas]

Sample case, in German. I think Merkel's comments make a lot more sense in this context.

Or, if you want to, here is a list of cases with more additional information. Link - in German.

[Serafina]

Actually, that might be the "culture" german politicians are talking about - accepting/respecting western values and individual freedoms, even if those goes against the immigrants original culture/religion.

[Big Phil]

The problem with multi-culturalism is that it is an extreme response to good old-fashioned racism and bigotry. As we all know, immigrants in years past were expected to drop most of their cultural traits and adopt those of their new home; in some cases this was enforced by the law. This is a pretty extreme (and shitty) way to treat people, so things changed and shifted way too far in the other direction, where immigrants weren't expected to assimilate whatsoever. So now we have the problem of people growing up in a foreign culture in France/Germany/Canada/USA/United Kingdom and not understanding how to speak French/German/English, not understanding the importance of an education, thinking it's okay to kill your wife/daughter for honor, etc. And many people have been afraid to say, "No, that is not acceptable," because that could have been perceived as racist or intolerant.

So then you get to today, where natives are pissed because immigrants are refusing to assimilate, immigrants are feeling threatened, and rather than deal with the situation directly it gets derailed with screams of racism and intolerance. The reality is a society cannot function coherently if it has 50 different cultures; it can only function effectively with a single culture. That culture can be influenced, modified, and changed (as it has in the United States), but everyone has to more or less agree on the rules of society in order for it to function. I think Merkel is pretty gutsy for saying this, especially given the shrieking from people on the left.

[Serafina]

The reality is a society cannot function coherently if it has 50 different cultures; it can only function effectively with a single culture. That culture can be influenced, modified, and changed (as it has in the United States), but everyone has to more or less agree on the rules of society in order for it to function. I think Merkel is pretty gutsy for saying this, especially given the shrieking from people on the left.

Actually, the important thing is that the various cultures have the same central values (human rights, secularism, civil liberties etc.). There are a lot of differences that won't cause any trouble - you can have different cultures as long as they match at the right points. It doesn't really matter what food you are eating. Your favored music won't cause any trouble. Different religions can be problematic, tough this can work in a tolerant society. Differences about civil rights, womens rights, democracy etc. don't work out and will lead to conflict.
A society can be very diverse, as long as most people agree on the important central points. For most people in the west, those are our "core values" such as democracy, individual freedom and human rights.

[Big Phil]

The reality is a society cannot function coherently if it has 50 different cultures; it can only function effectively with a single culture. That culture can be influenced, modified, and changed (as it has in the United States), but everyone has to more or less agree on the rules of society in order for it to function. I think Merkel is pretty gutsy for saying this, especially given the shrieking from people on the left.

Actually, the important thing is that the various cultures have the same central values (human rights, secularism, civil liberties etc.). There are a lot of differences that won't cause any trouble - you can have different cultures as long as they match at the right points. It doesn't really matter what food you are eating. Your favored music won't cause any trouble. Different religions can be problematic, tough this can work in a tolerant society. Differences about civil rights, womens rights, democracy etc. don't work out and will lead to conflict.
A society can be very diverse, as long as most people agree on the important central points. For most people in the west, those are our "core values" such as democracy, individual freedom and human rights.

Agreed

[hongi]

The values in the German constitution and the language- that is about it. You might want to pick up punctuality, self-discipline, concern for the privacy of others and a certain appreciation for the German Bildungskanon, but to be fair, I doubt most Germans have all four of those themselves. Really, constitution and language and you'll fit in fine. English usually is acceptable as well, as most Germans learn English, but probably won't serve you as well as German if you want to stay longer.

That doesn't sound like a lot. So what's the problem? Children of immigrants pick up the language quickly. There may be Turks who can't speak German well, but I bet they're pretty old. There are boatloads of old Chinese people here hobbling around who couldn't string together an English sentence to save their life. But they're not long for this world while their children are native speakers. I don't know what's in your constitution, but again it can't be too unreasonable. Give me the sitrep Thanas, why does Merkel think that German Turks aren't integrating?

What is German culture? If I immigrated to Germany, what should I be expected to adopt?

Frankly - i have no idea . Ask Thanas, he's more german than me
I suppose certain details about how to be polite, what kind of contact you are supposed to share with your neighbors and various other stuff are parts of it, but if so then i can't really tell. As i said, i don't think it's the major issue here.

Uh...of course it's the major issue here. If Germans want immigrants to integrate into their culture, you better have a good idea what that culture is.

[Serafina]

That doesn't sound like a lot. So what's the problem? Children of immigrants pick up the language quickly. There may be Turks who can't speak German well, but I bet they're pretty old. There are boatloads (lol) of old Chinese people here hobbling around who couldn't string together an English sentence to save their life. But they're not long for this world while their children are native speakers. I don't know what's in your constitution, but again it can't be too unreasonable. Give me the sitrep Thanas, why does Merkel think that German Turks aren't integrating?

Because many aren't.

I already explained why it often fails in regards to language - they don't grow up in a German-speaking environment, and don't get help to catch up later on. Hence, you have second- or even third-generation immigrants who are NOT native speakers.

With regards to culture, immigrants can retain their culture for similar reasons (isolation). And that can turn out to be a really bit dissonance. Thanas already pointed out the honor killings, but that's just the tip of the iceberg - you can still have suppressed women and the like even if their family won't go as far as murder.

That's why our politicians think (and are correct doing so) that many immigrants are not integrating - because they aren't. They live in separate communities, with all the results from that - and those are not counteracted.

[Thanas]

The values in the German constitution and the language- that is about it. You might want to pick up punctuality, self-discipline, concern for the privacy of others and a certain appreciation for the German Bildungskanon, but to be fair, I doubt most Germans have all four of those themselves. Really, constitution and language and you'll fit in fine. English usually is acceptable as well, as most Germans learn English, but probably won't serve you as well as German if you want to stay longer.

That doesn't sound like a lot. So what's the problem? Children of immigrants pick up the language quickly.

Wrong. Due to demographics and their ghettos, you have classes with up to 60-70% migrant children. They are not going to learn German from exposure that way and up until now, a failing grade in German was not enough to make them repeat a year. If their friends do not speak German, their parents do not speak German etc where are they going to learn German?

There may be Turks who can't speak German well, but I bet they're pretty old.

Wrong again. I know turks who are actually German citizens but could not write a decent sentence to save their life.

There are boatloads of old Chinese people here hobbling around who couldn't string together an English sentence to save their life. But they're not long for this world while their children are native speakers.

Asians in general are different from Turks. Asians in Germany integrate quickly, even if they arrive at a much later time (a good friend of mine is of Korean origin but speaks perfect German despite only having arrived six years ago).

I don't know what's in your constitution, but again it can't be too unreasonable. Give me the sitrep Thanas, why does Merkel think that German Turks aren't integrating?

Did you miss the entire thread? The reasons have been described in detail multiple times.

[Serafina]

Asians in general are different from Turks. Asians in Germany integrate quickly, even if they arrive at a much later time (a good friend of mine is of Korean origin but speaks perfect German despite only having arrived six years ago).

While that might be due to cultural differences between "asian" culture and turkish culture (i know the former is a generalization), i think that's mainly because asian immigrants avoid the ghetto-effect of turkish (and many other) immigrants - mainly because there are not enough of them to form such ghettos in the first place.

[hongi]

Asians in general are different from Turks. Asians in Germany integrate quickly, even if they arrive at a much later time (a good friend of mine is of Korean origin but speaks perfect German despite only having arrived six years ago).

Kindly stop speaking about Asians like you know us. I'm Korean. I live in Sydney's very own Koreatown.

The non culturally threatening face is presented by young professionals who are 2nd or 3rd generation. Go visit their house and talk to their parents or grand-parents. See how integrated they are.

[Thanas]

Asians in general are different from Turks. Asians in Germany integrate quickly, even if they arrive at a much later time (a good friend of mine is of Korean origin but speaks perfect German despite only having arrived six years ago).

Kindly stop speaking about Asians like you know us. I'm Korean. I live in Sydney's very own Koreatown.

Screw you. I do know my fair share of asians.

The non culturally threatening face is presented by young professionals who are 2nd or 3rd generation. Go visit their house and talk to their parents or grand-parents. See how integrated they are.

I have. Conservative, but still able to have a conversation.

Oh, and I am not just pulling this out of my behind. There are studies which prove that, for example the 2008 report on integration.

[Phantasee]

I grew up not speaking more than a couple words of English until I hit preschool (which I only attended for half a year before dropping out ), and my English wasn't very good until the end of kindergarten. But then, we don't end up with ghettos like you appear to have. My ethnic community settled in my corner of the city pretty heavily and despite us making up almost half a class sometimes we didn't have problems learning English. Do these kids not have any German-speaking kids in their classes? German kids programs on TV?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Another example, from my High School german class

Student (not me): Herr Cole, habe ich mich beschnittet

Herr Cole smirks

Herr Cole: Wirklich? Mit was hast du beschnitten selbst?

Student: Ein Stück Papier

Herr Cole: Autsch! Das muss schmerzhaft gewesen.

What he intended to say was the verb Schnitt, which means to cut. So, "Herr Cole, I cut myself". What he actually said was "Herr Cole, I circumcised myself" by using the verb Beschneiden.

Herr Cole of course asked "what with" and remarked on how painful it must have been. He then explained the mistake after a very german round of Schadenfreude at the poor bastard's expense.

I really hope the conversation went differently, or otherwise Cole is not a good german speaker. He misses one pronoun and his sentence consctruction is wrong in the first sentence he said and he misses a verb in the last sentence he said.

It probably did. It was over 8 years ago, and I may well have mistranslated a bit. Strictly speaking the german up there is my very rusty translation of the meaning of his original.

What did he(I) miss?

[hongi]

Screw you. I do know my fair share of asians.

You gave a broad statement (Asians in general are different from Turks) and you only cited one kid who you knew. Of course I'm skeptical.

I have. Conservative, but still able to have a conversation.

Oh, and I am not just pulling this out of my behind. There are studies which prove that, for example the 2008 report on integration.

Hang on, you're okay with them being culturally conservative? By conservative, I assume you mean that they still keep to the culture of where they came from. So then what's with Chancellor Merkel's booing of multiculturalism?

If the language thing the most important thing for you, it's too much to expect an immigrant population to switch over in just a couple of decades. As any linguist will tell you, it happens gradually.

[Thanas]

Screw you. I do know my fair share of asians.

You gave a broad statement (Asians in general are different from Turks) and you only cited one kid who you knew. Of course I'm skeptical.

Yeah, I also talked about a study. You might want to try that argument again.

Hang on, you're okay with them being culturally conservative? By conservative, I assume you mean that they still keep to the culture of where they came from. So then what's with Chancellor Merkel's booing of multiculturalism?

Holy Christ. Did you miss the entire thread so far?

Reread the thread, it is explained in detail, numerous times.

If the language thing the most important thing for you, it's too much to expect an immigrant population to switch over in just a couple of decades. As any linguist will tell you, it happens gradually.

BS. A switchover is not demanded, but people who are born here, have been raised here etc. should be able to speak decent German. Not excellent, but decent. But they can't even read a Newspaper.

Get this through your head - people who have lived their entire life in Germany - and they still can't read the newspaper, much less respect or obey the laws of the land. Yes, those exist.

I grew up not speaking more than a couple words of English until I hit preschool (which I only attended for half a year before dropping out ), and my English wasn't very good until the end of kindergarten. But then, we don't end up with ghettos like you appear to have. My ethnic community settled in my corner of the city pretty heavily and despite us making up almost half a class sometimes we didn't have problems learning English. Do these kids not have any German-speaking kids in their classes?

No, in some classes you have only 10-30% German kids, who for various reasons (bullying etc.) stay together. More importantly, many of those German kids are members of the lower class themselves, meaning their parents are not exactly model citizens or great intellectuals either.

German kids programs on TV?

Turkish TV is widely available in Germany, so no. Get this - it is completely possible to live your life without speaking any German. You can shop in turkish shops, go to turkish clubs, work in turkish industries. It is only when you try to live in Germany as a whole beyond the ghetto that you are actually coming into contact with Germans. Most of that is done in schools, but when you are done with the six hours of schooling or so, you can easily disappear into your turkish-only world again. (The problem is also more one of Turkish males than of females - the girls are usually doing way better in school than the boys, for a myriad of reasons).

[Thanas]

Student (not me): Herr Cole, ich habe mich beschnittetn.

Herr Cole smirks

Herr Cole: Wirklich? Mit was (better would be womit) hast du dich selbst beschnitten selbst?

Student: Mit einem Stück Papier

Herr Cole: Autsch! Das muss schmerzhaft gewesen sein.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Student (not me): Herr Cole, ich habe mich beschnittetn.

Herr Cole smirks

Herr Cole: Wirklich? Mit was (better would be womit) hast du dich selbst beschnitten selbst?

Student: Mit einem Stück Papier

Herr Cole: Autsch! Das muss schmerzhaft gewesen sein.

Danke. Now that I see it, I am beating my head against the desk. Though in the first sentence, I accidentally deleted the Ich. It was there originally, but I did not catch the accident.

[hongi]

Yeah, I also talked about a study. You might want to try that argument again.

Stop acting like you're thick, I know you aren't. You didn't bring up a study in the first post:

Asians in general are different from Turks. Asians in Germany integrate quickly, even if they arrive at a much later time (a good friend of mine is of Korean origin but speaks perfect German despite only having arrived six years ago).

When I gave offence at this generalisation, you then said that you knew lots of Asians. Well you didn't say that at the start, so I tried to explain to you why I was pissed:

You gave a broad statement (Asians in general are different from Turks) and you only cited one kid who you knew. Of course I'm skeptical.

Obviously this flew over your head. Congratulations for pissing me off further.

[Thanas]

Obviously this flew over your head. Congratulations for pissing me off further.

Like I care about your precious feelings, when you are the one continually building a large wall of ignorance in this thread, ignoring what was written by others. Also, way to not recognize a general claim and a specific anecdote in (). Really, just reading through this thread should have told you otherwise. You know what? Maybe you should have asked for more information than just claiming I did not experience what I did.

As for the rest of your post, I feel it can be aptly summarized by WAAAAAAAAAH.

[hongi]

Calm down Thanas, you're going to have an aneurysm.

Yeah, I also talked about a study. You might want to try that argument again.

You also gave no source. How do I know you're not making it up? I couldn't find it using Google.

Turkish TV is widely available in Germany, so no. Get this - it is completely possible to live your life without speaking any German. You can shop in turkish shops, go to turkish clubs, work in turkish industries. It is only when you try to live in Germany as a whole beyond the ghetto that you are actually coming into contact with Germans. Most of that is done in schools, but when you are done with the six hours of schooling or so, you can easily disappear into your turkish-only world again. (The problem is also more one of Turkish males than of females - the girls are usually doing way better in school than the boys, for a myriad of reasons).

Fascinating. One has to wonder what your government has been doing for all these years.

We have Aboriginal people who can't speak English very well, but they live in remote areas. And when an Australian means remote, we mean in the middle of nowhere basically. They can afford not to speak English because they don't meet English speakers much. Not in the cities, where even though there are ethnic enclaves, they're surrounded by English everyday. So if we do better than you, then I just shake my head at your country. We're fucked up with regards to our Indigenous policy, but not that fucked up.

[xt828]

I used to work for a firm which owned a number of townhouse communities, and there were a couple which were occupied either in whole or in majority by Pakistanis, who spoke their own language and watched Pakistani tv off the satellite. They ran the local Foodstore and the like, and the kids were enrolled in a local private Pakistani school. That sort of situation could be a root of the situation in Germany, if left alone.

[Serafina]

I used to work for a firm which owned a number of townhouse communities, and there were a couple which were occupied either in whole or in majority by Pakistanis, who spoke their own language and watched Pakistani tv off the satellite. They ran the local Foodstore and the like, and the kids were enrolled in a local private Pakistani school. That sort of situation could be a root of the situation in Germany, if left alone.

Yes, pretty much. The only real contact with the german language the children have to have is in school, and then only with the teachers - their peers won't speak german either, due to the ghetto-situation.

And Hongi: Just read the damn thread, it's blatantly obvious that you didn't. You started with "oh, the kids will learn the language anyway" when i spend multiple posts explaining why they don't.
And you also don't get the concern when Thanas and i are talking about culture. We don't give a damn whether they are muslims, or what food they eat at home, or which holidays they celebrate or when they have conservative values (like you apparently understand them). But they are SO conservative (more like backwards, really) that we have family clans who will KILL their daughters if they get a divorce from the marriage they were forced into. Or if they get pregnant out of wedlock, or if they wear revealing clothes, or if one of their german friends turns out to be a lesbian, or if she dares to work for a german company. That's the problem - the "culture" that is preserved here by the immigrants is absolutely, totally backwards and completely incompatible with western values or human rights.