Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by CaptJodan »

Or so this claims. Posted without comment. I feel there are far more on this board more learned on statistics than I.

http://www.aolnews.com/science/article/ ... s/19668089
(Oct. 17) -- Walter Schumm knows what he's about to do is unpopular: publish a study arguing that gay parents are more likely to raise gay children than straight parents. But the Kansas State University family studies professor has a detailed analysis that past almost aggressively ideological researchers never had.

When one such researcher, Paul Cameron, published a paper in 2006 arguing that children of gay parents were more likely to be gay themselves, the response from the academic press was virulent, to say nothing of the popular press; the Southern Poverty Law Center, for instance, equated Cameron to a Nazi.

Not all of the vitriol was hyperbolic. Cameron does not tolerate gay people. He believes that "homosexual practice is injurious to society."

The gay press, as far back as the 1980s, labeled Cameron "the most dangerous anti-gay voice in America." Though Cameron was the first to publish papers on the dangers of secondhand smoke, the scientific community has abandoned him. The American Psychological Association long since dropped him from its membership for an "ethical" violation.

Today, Cameron is the founder and chairman of the Family Research Institute, whose "overriding mission" is to publish "empirical research on issues that threaten the traditional family, particularly homosexuality."

Schumm doesn't go for that sort of research. After Cameron's 2006 paper, Schumm listened as the academic community stated certainty of two things: Cameron was an idiotic bigot; and the existing literature showed little to no societal, cultural or parental influence on sexual orientation.

Schumm began investigating the second premise. "I just want to know the truth about something," he tells AOL News. And he found it strange that parents can influence so many facets of their children's lives -- but not in any way their sexual orientation.

Lawyers for the state of Florida heard of Schumm's fledgling research and invited him in 2008 to testify in a case. The state's Department of Children and Families was attempting to uphold a ban on gay and lesbian parents adopting children. Schumm's testimony actually ended up aiding the gay parents in the trial.

He said: "Gay parents can be good foster parents," and "The decision to permit homosexuals to adopt is best made by the judiciary on a case by case basis."

Schumm tells AOL News that he agreed to testify as one of the state's witnesses only if his evidence was not "slanted" for or against gay rights.

But also in his testimony was an inkling of the robust research Schumm has just completed. His study on sexual orientation, out next month, says that gay and lesbian parents are far more likely to have children who become gay. "I'm trying to prove that it's not 100 percent genetic," Schumm tells AOL News.

His study is a meta-analysis of existing work. First, Schumm extrapolated data from 10 books on gay parenting; Cameron, for what it's worth, had only looked at three, and offered no statistical analysis in his paper. Schumm skewed his data so that only self-identified gay and lesbian children would be labeled as such.

This is important because sometimes Schumm would come across a passage of children of gay parents who said they were "adamant about not declaring their sexual orientation at all." These people would be labeled straight, even though the passage's implication was that they were gay.

Schumm concluded that children of lesbian parents identified themselves as gay 31 percent of the time; children of gay men had gay children 19 percent of the time, and children of a lesbian mother and gay father had at least one gay child 25 percent of the time.

Furthermore, when the study restricted the results so that they included only children in their 20s -- presumably after they'd been able to work out any adolescent confusion or experimentation -- 58 percent of the children of lesbians called themselves gay, and 33 percent of the children of gay men called themselves gay. (About 5 to 10 percent of the children of straight parents call themselves gay, Schumm says.)

Schumm next went macro, poring over an anthropological study of various cultures' acceptance of homosexuality. He found that when communities welcome gays and lesbians, "89 percent feature higher rates of homosexual behavior."

Finally, Schumm looked at the existing academic studies, the ones used to pillory Cameron's work. In all there are 26 such studies. Schumm ran the numbers from them and concluded that, surprisingly, 20 percent of the kids of gay parents were gay themselves. When children only 17 or older were included in the analysis, 28 percent were gay.

Abbie Goldberg is a psychology professor at Clark University, and the author of "Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children: Research on the Family Life Cycle," which this year won the Distinguished Book Award from the APA. She hasn't read Schumm's study, only seen the abstract. But she says, in general, that a meta-analysis of this nature relies on sample sizes that are often too small and may furthermore brim with participants whose perspective is firmly aligned with the LGBT community. In other words, they're aware of these sorts of studies and seek them out.

"The fundamental problem with this [type of meta-analysis] is such samples tend to be biased," Goldberg tells AOL News.

Schumm says he guarded against that by seeking out so many different works. And across all his data -- the 10 books he consulted, the anthropological study, the scientific articles -- he noticed how lesbians begat more lesbians. In Schumm's study, he quotes from the extant literature the stories of young women, describing how being gay was never frowned upon in their household, and so that "option" was available to them. That said, Schumm also finds evidence of gay mothers pushing their daughters, upset over a relationship with a man, to "try out women."

But couldn't gay men also tell their sons this? Yes, but Schumm tells AOL News that most gay men have at some point been with a woman, so they understand why their sons might date them. Whereas the literature shows some lesbians "have a hatred of men that's intense," Schumm says.

Schumm says it shouldn't have taken until 2010 to do the meta-analysis. Too often his colleagues impose "liberal or progressive political interpretations" on their studies, which inhibit further inquiry. "It's kind of sad," he tells AOL News.

As if expecting a political backlash himself, Schumm concludes his study with a quote from philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. "All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Can a mod please move this to N&P. I apparently wasn't paying attention to where I was.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Broomstick »

(Oct. 17) -- Walter Schumm knows what he's about to do is unpopular: publish a study arguing that gay parents are more likely to raise gay children than straight parents.
And if it's true - so fucking what? What does it matter?

Well, OK, gay people are still subjected to unwarranted abuse and prejudice, that's a downer, but other than the reaction of other people so fucking what?

Yeah, yeah, it pisses off the conservatives and anti-gay crowd. Well, anti-gay bigots make me want to send a squad of gay hookers over to the front lawn to sing "YMCA" from sundown to sunup with spotlights and oompah-band as backup.
But also in his testimony was an inkling of the robust research Schumm has just completed. His study on sexual orientation, out next month, says that gay and lesbian parents are far more likely to have children who become gay. "I'm trying to prove that it's not 100 percent genetic," Schumm tells AOL News.
Or they're more likely to have gay kids who aren't in the closet. Cause they're not scared spitless their parents will reject them for being gay.
Schumm next went macro, poring over an anthropological study of various cultures' acceptance of homosexuality. He found that when communities welcome gays and lesbians, "89 percent feature higher rates of homosexual behavior."
I don't have a problem with that, even if I am heterosexual.
In Schumm's study, he quotes from the extant literature the stories of young women, describing how being gay was never frowned upon in their household, and so that "option" was available to them. That said, Schumm also finds evidence of gay mothers pushing their daughters, upset over a relationship with a man, to "try out women."
Yeah, I could see how that results in more lesbian behavior. Oddly enough, that doesn't bother me a bit.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Since Broomstick said everything that needs to be said on the topic-why exactly is it in PST instead of N&P or SLAM? :D
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by CaptJodan »

Schumm (I'm sure it's not pronounced as how it potentially looks) seems to give away his leanings regardless of his findings. Rather than reporting the findings from a dispassionate view, he takes pains to talk about how studies are conducted from a "liberal bias". He also refers to "truth". Now, again, I don't know if his methods are sound...they may well be, but his goal is clearly to cause damage to a GLBT cause.

Which leads to Broomstick's comments. The study is designed to do one thing, scare heterosexuals into mistrusting gays. A lot of studies have come out saying gays are equal in parentage to straights, and there's a general shift in public opinion on rights for gays. The intent of Schumm is to re-inflame conservative fence sitters, I imagine. Those who might be smart enough to see the writing on the wall, but can still be swayed back to fear gays. Them queers are trying to take over the country by indoctrination, for example. It's ready ammunition for those types of people.

While I can't comment on the methodology, it's clear by the rhetoric used that this study is meant to give scientific ammunition to those who want to discriminate.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Also, he's assuming that this proves there is a non-genetic component in homosexuality which gay people inoculate into their children. This massive assumption is without any proof of cause and effect. Occam's razor suggests a much simpler explanation: The homosexual population is a larger percentage than is usually reported in studies, but a sizeable portion of it is intensely, deeply repressed, see gay pastors who want a "special genital massage" from a rentboy and Larry Craig. When raised by gay parents, none of the children have their sexuality vigorously suppressed by their being raised by homophobic parents, so the effective percentage or percentage of self-accepting homosexuals is higher when children are raised by gay parents. Or, being raised by gay parents is better for gay children since they're going to be accepted by their parents.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Also, he's assuming that this proves there is a non-genetic component in homosexuality which gay people inoculate into their children. This massive assumption is without any proof of cause and effect. Occam's razor suggests a much simpler explanation: The homosexual population is a larger percentage than is usually reported in studies, but a sizeable portion of it is intensely, deeply repressed, see gay pastors who want a "special genital massage" from a rentboy and Larry Craig. When raised by gay parents, none of the children have their sexuality vigorously suppressed by their being raised by homophobia parents, so the effective percentage or percentage of self-accepting homosexuals is higher.
Some of the stuff mentioned (gay father/lesbian mother) suggests that he incorporates children born by fertility treatments and surrogate mothers into the study. In that case, that would seem to support a natal or inherent cause of sexual orientation.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Bakustra wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Also, he's assuming that this proves there is a non-genetic component in homosexuality which gay people inoculate into their children. This massive assumption is without any proof of cause and effect. Occam's razor suggests a much simpler explanation: The homosexual population is a larger percentage than is usually reported in studies, but a sizeable portion of it is intensely, deeply repressed, see gay pastors who want a "special genital massage" from a rentboy and Larry Craig. When raised by gay parents, none of the children have their sexuality vigorously suppressed by their being raised by homophobia parents, so the effective percentage or percentage of self-accepting homosexuals is higher.
Some of the stuff mentioned (gay father/lesbian mother) suggests that he incorporates children born by fertility treatments and surrogate mothers into the study. In that case, that would seem to support a natal or inherent cause of sexual orientation.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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I'm not seeing anything about twins in that article. It's been shown in the past, more than once, that twins are more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than non-identical siblings, who, in turn, or more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than adopted siblings. If that doesn't show a large genetic component to sexual orientation then I don't know what does.

As already pointed out, it's more likely that children of gay parents are less likely to have their orientation suppressed by bigoted parents and that the study is flawed in that it didn't account for gay parents using their own sperm/eggs and fertility treatments to have children that, surprise, are more likely to have "the gay gene" activated. (I know it's more complex than that, I'm just trying to get the point across.)
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Article wrote:He found that when communities welcome gays and lesbians, "89 percent feature higher rates of homosexual behavior."
Um... duh? :wtf:
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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The Spartan wrote:I'm not seeing anything about twins in that article. It's been shown in the past, more than once, that twins are more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than non-identical siblings, who, in turn, or more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than adopted siblings. If that doesn't show a large genetic component to sexual orientation then I don't know what does.
It doesn't. For one thing, IIRC about a third of identical twins have differing sexualities. Additionally, twins obviously share the same wombs and most of the time share the same environment. The evidence whenever I looked at it last seemed to be weighted towards the notion of hormones in the womb. Later kids were more likely to be gay than first-borns due to the womb getting "worn out" etc. It may well be a case of genetic sensitivity to those conditions too, and sexuality may be more fluid than liberals want to admit outside the womb.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Bottlestein »

And this is why, kids, we look at peer reviewed and accredited journals and not "sciencey" :twisted: websites. "Detailed analysis" :lol:

At least there's one plus side - more people will realize that KSU is a joke school :lol:
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Way to many people assume that sexual orientation only has a single cause - it's either hormones or genetics or nurture.
I don't see why this has to be the case at all. You can have a genetic component which increases/decreases the sensitivity to certain hormones (or other factors in the womb), which in turn programs your basic sexual orientation - which develops according to your nurture.
Twin-studies suggest that there is such a genetic factor, whatever it may look like.
Knowledge about the development of the brain suggests that hormones play a role in the development of sexual orientation.
And we know that a lot about sexuality develops later in life (what body-features and/or personalities you are attracted to, your fetishes, your behavior during sexual situations etc.)

Particularly the last point (nurture) is often overlooked. Yes, it certainly looks like your sexual orientation is hard-wired into your brain before birth. But that hard-wiring often includes a lot of bisexuality, and whether you act on that or not could very well depend on nurture (a bisexual person is much less likely to act on the homosexual-part of it if the environment disfavors it).
Now, what are the actual consequences of that? Simple - your environment wont "turn you gay". Rather, it will allow you to express (part of) your hard-wired sexual orientation. If you are not born with a (partially) "gay brain", you won't have any same-sex attractions (and vice-versa for hetero) regardless of the circumstances. The right circumstances merely allow someone to express what's already there.

That pretty much accounts for sexual fluidity - sexual orientation is not binary, and bisexuality is not some strange thing in the middle. When you are "90% hetero" you will be attracted to the opposite gender in a lot of circumstances, and only to the same gender under specific ones (the right environment and partner). And so on for any other combination of hetero/homosexual attraction.

So, bottom line: (Almost) everyone is bi to a certain degree, and will be attracted to the same/other gender depending on the circumstances such as looks, personality and environment. Thus, environment matters for expression of orientation, not for the development of it.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Bottlestein »

Serafina wrote:Way to many people assume that sexual orientation only has a single cause - it's either hormones or genetics or nurture.
And this is the crux of the problem: "people" believe this because they don't understand how genetics work. No "researcher" I have talked to believes this - they cite the papers that actually found the developmental pathways leading to sexual preference. The fact that KSU hired someone who does not, simply means, again, they are a joke school.

Also: someone should post the actual papers that detail the neurologic development of sexual preference here. Then we can finish with this "OMG gayness by induction" bullshit.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Rye wrote:
The Spartan wrote:I'm not seeing anything about twins in that article. It's been shown in the past, more than once, that twins are more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than non-identical siblings, who, in turn, or more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than adopted siblings. If that doesn't show a large genetic component to sexual orientation then I don't know what does.
It doesn't. For one thing, IIRC about a third of identical twins have differing sexualities. Additionally, twins obviously share the same wombs and most of the time share the same environment. The evidence whenever I looked at it last seemed to be weighted towards the notion of hormones in the womb. Later kids were more likely to be gay than first-borns due to the womb getting "worn out" etc. It may well be a case of genetic sensitivity to those conditions too, and sexuality may be more fluid than liberals want to admit outside the womb.
Whatever the case may be, in the end it's still biology (hormones or genes or both or something else) that's determining sexual orientation as well as the fluidity there of.

In other words, it's not gay parents making children gay through environment, as the OP's study attempts to suggest, it's still biology.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Rye wrote:
The Spartan wrote:I'm not seeing anything about twins in that article. It's been shown in the past, more than once, that twins are more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than non-identical siblings, who, in turn, or more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than adopted siblings. If that doesn't show a large genetic component to sexual orientation then I don't know what does.
It doesn't. For one thing, IIRC about a third of identical twins have differing sexualities. Additionally, twins obviously share the same wombs and most of the time share the same environment. The evidence whenever I looked at it last seemed to be weighted towards the notion of hormones in the womb. Later kids were more likely to be gay than first-borns due to the womb getting "worn out" etc. It may well be a case of genetic sensitivity to those conditions too, and sexuality may be more fluid than liberals want to admit outside the womb.
That's not how identical twin studies work. Fraternal twins are often (always?) used as the control.

If homosexuality is more likely to co-occur in identical twins than in fraternal twins, then there is a genetic component to homosexuality. (Note that as long as identical twins are not significantly more likely to be born after other sibs than fraternal twins are, birth order is effectively controlled for.) However, it's one of many factors, and IIRC probably far from the most significant.

I'm also not aware that liberals, in general, were made uncomfortable by fluid sexuality. If we take conservative to be the opposite of liberal, quite the opposite trend would likely emerge.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

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Anguirus wrote:I'm also not aware that liberals, in general, were made uncomfortable by fluid sexuality. If we take conservative to be the opposite of liberal, quite the opposite trend would likely emerge.
This has to do with the context of the debate itself, and the fact that gay rights advocates have been couching their defense in nature-side arguments for years. A lot of bigots argue that homosexuality is a choice and can be reversed. This is actually true, to an extent; sexuality is pretty fluid, but massive social pressure to be something or the other is critical.

The problem is that liberals and even a whole mess of gay people have allowed that to be the Big Issue here and have devoted most of their time and energy to going no it's not when really they should be asking who cares. Yeah, given years of therapy I'm sure you could turn someone who prefers the same sex into someone who prefers the opposite, but so what? You could also probably turn a straight person gay, turn anyone bi or completely obliterate their sexuality. It's a red herring, and it's way more important to just treat everyone well by default than having to prove the worth of queer people by nailing down every one of the sixty-seven thousand genetic, natal, social and aesthetic factors that culminated in them being gay.

"But I can't help it" is a shitty fucking defense, because eventually one will be able to help it, so liberals need to stop acting like it's some kind of unfortunate condition that deserves protection and pity. Gender and sexuality should be whatever it wants with whoever it wants, so long as it's not hurting anyone but consenting masochists. Then maybe we can get some actual fucking science done on the subject.
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Rye wrote:
The Spartan wrote:I'm not seeing anything about twins in that article. It's been shown in the past, more than once, that twins are more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than non-identical siblings, who, in turn, or more likely to both be homosexual (or not) than adopted siblings. If that doesn't show a large genetic component to sexual orientation then I don't know what does.
It doesn't. For one thing, IIRC about a third of identical twins have differing sexualities. Additionally, twins obviously share the same wombs and most of the time share the same environment. The evidence whenever I looked at it last seemed to be weighted towards the notion of hormones in the womb. Later kids were more likely to be gay than first-borns due to the womb getting "worn out" etc. It may well be a case of genetic sensitivity to those conditions too, and sexuality may be more fluid than liberals want to admit outside the womb.
Heritability is 50%, the rest being accounted for by natal factors. Identical twins may or may not share the same womb environment, depending on whether they share placental attachments and the same amniotic sack.

The fraternal birth order effect is not about the womb being worn out, but by additive immunization on the part of the mother to male cell surface antigens, because her immune system is responsible for the defense of the fetus to a large degree in development. It is basically an auto-immune issue toward male fetuses.
This is actually true, to an extent; sexuality is pretty fluid, but massive social pressure to be something or the other is critical.
It is not necessarily fluid, but a simple non-binary. A person who is bisexual but leans to one side or the other could for example be pressured into picking a proverbial side.

And of course there is a facultative bisexuality you find. Much more common in females, but present in males under high stress conditions...
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Anguirus »

^ Ah, now I get what you're saying.

On the one hand, people HAVE to be made to understand that being gay is not just a choice that one makes to honk off God. The thing is, the studies that show that there is a biological component to homosexuality have, in my anecdotal opinion, really made a positive difference in the ability of straight Americans to empathize with gay people.

Of course, you and I and rational people know that human sexuality is not so easily categorized, and that the act of homosexual sex is not immoral no matter why one participates in it. The eventual consensus of science on the causes of homosexuality in humans is completely irrelevant to the human rights issue, when you get down to it.

I think there have been some very good and very bad scientific studies on the matter. As a rule, good ones aren't perpetrated by bigots. There are huge confirmation biases that appear to be coming into play (i.e. the same researcher repeatedly finds that male bisexuality is "not real." Strangely, male bisexuals continue to exist after every time he publishes.) The field is very politicized and there's nothing we can do about it, other than read carefully. On the whole, I believe scientific inquiry in this matter has been a good thing.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Darth Raptor
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Darth Raptor »

You get the marginalization of bisexuals from gay people, too. We're terribly inconvenient (also greedy, lying, BREEDING trend sluts).

It's not just a non-binary, it's a spectrum, and people aren't finite points, they're ranges (they're also not unthinking widgets in an evolutionary psychology simulation, but I digress). Those ranges can also grow, shrink or move along the spectrum, which is what's meant by fluidity in this context. It doesn't mean everyone is into everything at any time, nor does it mean that one's preferences aren't massively ingrained and almost impossible to change.

OH WAIT JUST LIKE GENDER ITSELF. That's part of what bothers me about all of this. People like AD who are really interested in the mating habits of frogs but happen to be so gay that alien gaydars are picking it up really wish there were some VITAL, DARWIN-APPROVED role that they fulfilled within the human population. Meanwhile getting to define what gender and sexuality means for yourself is part of the whole "sapience" package.
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Alyrium Denryle
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

You get the marginalization of bisexuals from gay people, too. We're terribly inconvenient (also greedy, lying, BREEDING trend sluts).

It's not just a non-binary, it's a spectrum, and people aren't finite points, they're ranges
Yes they are. Every person is a mean with a certain variance ;)

(they're also not unthinking widgets in an evolutionary psychology simulation, but I digress).
Yes they are.
Those ranges can also grow, shrink or move along the spectrum

You plot someones time averaged sexual behavior on the kinsey scale by year, then get a mean. From there you calculate variance. So, for example, you create an index that equally weighs self reported position on a kinsey scale, and the actual sexual behaviors (I am trying to think of how an equation would be structured. Give me some time). Now imagine you do this with the same person across a number of years. You can then calculate a mean and standard deviation from the indices and get a nice normal distribution... Well, maybe not normal strictly speaking because your samples are not independent, but I digress.
OH WAIT JUST LIKE GENDER ITSELF. That's part of what bothers me about all of this. People like AD who are really interested in the mating habits of frogs but happen to be so gay that alien gaydars are picking it up really wish there were some VITAL, DARWIN-APPROVED role that they fulfilled within the human population.
It just so happens that there is not one. Homosexual behavior is a by-product of other more adaptive behavior, and the formation of gender in the brain. At least that is the most parsimonious explanation. Homosexual behavior, if persistent in a person, is an evolutionary dead end. The only thing that can maintain it in the population is stabilizing selection on heterozygotes on a massive gene complex that keeps the particular combination that is being trans, or homosexuals extant on the tail end of the distribution, with varying degrees of bisexuality moving toward the central tendency. That is of course completely ignoring epistatis.
Meanwhile getting to define what gender and sexuality means for yourself is part of the whole "sapience" package.
Alternatively even people who do not think they are mind-body dualists really are...
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Bakustra »

What exactly is with the snipes against the concept of decision-making? You're pretty much just lying to yourself when you pull that garbage. Or perhaps you're one of the tiny, tiny minority that has never waffled on a decision.
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Bakustra wrote:What exactly is with the snipes against the concept of decision-making? You're pretty much just lying to yourself when you pull that garbage. Or perhaps you're one of the tiny, tiny minority that has never waffled on a decision.
No. People make decisions. They just dont have as much real control over those decisions as they think they do. People are not unmoved movers, their behavior is fully caused by the interaction between their external environment, their past experiences, their genes, and a freakish array of neurotransmitters and hormones. Free will does not, strictly speaking, exist. We are just consciously aware of the decisions we make, unlike many other species which are not. Our consciousness is a perception, not a controller, which just so happens to be advanced enough to think in the abstract and feed back into the decision making process somewhat through abstract simulation of experiences that then get incorpo... it is complicated.
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Bakustra
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Bakustra »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Bakustra wrote:What exactly is with the snipes against the concept of decision-making? You're pretty much just lying to yourself when you pull that garbage. Or perhaps you're one of the tiny, tiny minority that has never waffled on a decision.
No. People make decisions. They just dont have as much real control over those decisions as they think they do. People are not unmoved movers, their behavior is fully caused by the interaction between their external environment, their past experiences, their genes, and a freakish array of neurotransmitters and hormones. Free will does not, strictly speaking, exist. We are just consciously aware of the decisions we make, unlike many other species which are not. Our consciousness is a perception, not a controller, which just so happens to be advanced enough to think in the abstract and feed back into the decision making process somewhat through abstract simulation of experiences that then get incorpo... it is complicated.
So why be a smug asshole over somebody asserting they have a right to avoid being stacked into neat categories of gender and sexual orientation if they don't feel those categories fit them? Apart from being stung personally or whatever because somebody defied your personal approach.

But hey, I'm glad that you've figured out how the brain works perfectly. Maybe you ought to get that included in cog-psych textbooks. We sure as hell never covered any of that!
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Simon_Jester »

Broomstick wrote:
Schumm next went macro, poring over an anthropological study of various cultures' acceptance of homosexuality. He found that when communities welcome gays and lesbians, "89 percent feature higher rates of homosexual behavior."
I don't have a problem with that, even if I am heterosexual.
Also, one wonders if he may have considered that gay people are not fixed objects that sprout of the ground like trees. They move. Predictably, they move from places where more people hate them and want them to die to places where fewer people hate them and want them to die. Therefore, they tend to cluster in places that welcome them, as opposed to places that hate them and want them dead.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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Alyrium Denryle
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Re: Gay parents more likely to make gay kids

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Bakustra wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Bakustra wrote:What exactly is with the snipes against the concept of decision-making? You're pretty much just lying to yourself when you pull that garbage. Or perhaps you're one of the tiny, tiny minority that has never waffled on a decision.
No. People make decisions. They just dont have as much real control over those decisions as they think they do. People are not unmoved movers, their behavior is fully caused by the interaction between their external environment, their past experiences, their genes, and a freakish array of neurotransmitters and hormones. Free will does not, strictly speaking, exist. We are just consciously aware of the decisions we make, unlike many other species which are not. Our consciousness is a perception, not a controller, which just so happens to be advanced enough to think in the abstract and feed back into the decision making process somewhat through abstract simulation of experiences that then get incorpo... it is complicated.
So why be a smug asshole over somebody asserting they have a right to avoid being stacked into neat categories of gender and sexual orientation if they don't feel those categories fit them? Apart from being stung personally or whatever because somebody defied your personal approach.

But hey, I'm glad that you've figured out how the brain works perfectly. Maybe you ought to get that included in cog-psych textbooks. We sure as hell never covered any of that!
2 things:

He pressed a button, strawmaning evopsych, to which I responded sarcastically, and by reference to dualism. Whether you can neatly cagetorize a complicated phenotype is irrelevant. I have not tried to do so. On the other hand, whether you can really define those things for yourself is a completely different question.

As for your critique, what text were you reading, and did it go into behavioral genetics, or philosophy of mind much?
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