Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

[Big Phil]

When I gave offence at this generalisation, you then said that you knew lots of Asians. Well you didn't say that at the start, so I tried to explain to you why I was pissed:

And this is why conversations about immigration, race, or multi-culturalism always go down the shitter. Some whiny asshole feels the need to interject with "I'm offended!" stupidity rather than have an honest conversation.

[hongi]

An honest conversation means that people talk...y'know, honestly. "That's a generalisation and I don't care for it" would fit under that definition.

[ray245]

Yes, but it does not say immigration from where, though. For example - note analogy here, but I just use it to illustrate - people will definitely support more immigration from other EU countries or Russia or so. But ask them if they want more turks from Anatolia and they'll quickly say no. For example, another recent study said that less than 20% of Germans feels comfortable with Turkish neighbours (reasons cited were generally macho culture, unemployed, disruptive influences etc) while the vast majority had no problem with Asians, EU or even African immigrants.

It is true that very few turkish immigrants really oppose immigration, but not a lot of them seem to feel the need to do much for it either. There are two million of them in Germany, but guess how many become citizens each year? Only 25k or so, meaning that less than half of the total number (around 800k) actually have a German passport. However, even worse is the abysmal education they receive.

Is there any reason why Asian or African immigrants are more willingly to integrate into the German culture as opposed to those of Turkish descent?

[Thanas]

You also gave no source. How do I know you're not making it up? I couldn't find it using Google.

PDF link.

Fascinating. One has to wonder what your government has been doing for all these years.

Like I said, fear of being associated with Nazis led to no political party touching it, while the left was free to promote a version of multiculturalism in which integration was achieved by the virtue of simply being in the country.

Is there any reason why Asian or African immigrants are more willingly to integrate into the German culture as opposed to those of Turkish descent?

Numbers: They cannot afford to simply live among those who speak the same language.

[Broomstick]

We have Aboriginal people who can't speak English very well, but they live in remote areas. And when an Australian means remote, we mean in the middle of nowhere basically. They can afford not to speak English because they don't meet English speakers much. Not in the cities, where even though there are ethnic enclaves, they're surrounded by English everyday. So if we do better than you, then I just shake my head at your country. We're fucked up with regards to our Indigenous policy, but not that fucked up.

Here in the US we have people of Latin American descent in the cities who are 2nd or 3rd generation in the US who don't speak English - they live in Spanish enclaves and manage to get by without using English even if they're firmly embedded in English-speaking America. So it's not entirely rural vs. urban.

On the flip side, US cities have long had enclaves of Asians (Chinatowns are best know, but there are many "Little Koreas" and "Little Viet Nams") where, within them, you could get by without English but it's very rare to see a child of such immigrants who doesn't speak good English. Why is that?

I think it's not just the dominant culture, it's also the minority culture that factors into these things. Some groups are more insular than others. Some are more interested in their children becoming integrated (at least economically, which requires good English in the US or good German in Germany), some just seem to want to recreate "home".

[Big Phil]

We have Aboriginal people who can't speak English very well, but they live in remote areas. And when an Australian means remote, we mean in the middle of nowhere basically. They can afford not to speak English because they don't meet English speakers much. Not in the cities, where even though there are ethnic enclaves, they're surrounded by English everyday. So if we do better than you, then I just shake my head at your country. We're fucked up with regards to our Indigenous policy, but not that fucked up.

Here in the US we have people of Latin American descent in the cities who are 2nd or 3rd generation in the US who don't speak English - they live in Spanish enclaves and manage to get by without using English even if they're firmly embedded in English-speaking America. So it's not entirely rural vs. urban.

It's more due to education/income/social class than anything else. Middle and Upper class Latin American immigrants do NOT go and live in Spanish speaking ghettos... that's where the dirty poor people live, after all.

Here in Seattle you see some ethnic enclaves of subcontinental Indians, but it's not entire neighborhoods. It's 15-20 houses in a neighborhood of 100 homes, and the adult males tend to work at Microsoft or a similar tech company. It's segregation within an integrated community, in other words, but they still participate in society at large, even if they do have a "safe" place to retreat to from time to time.

[Serafina]

Just a note: At least in the case of turkish immigrants, Germany is cooperating with Turkey regarding their immigration. Our president Christian Wulff (remember, our head of state and therefore more a figurehead than having actual political power) spoke in front of the Turkish parliament today about Turkish immigrants, stating that they are welcome and in a general postive light.

[Guardsman Bass]

Here in the US we have people of Latin American descent in the cities who are 2nd or 3rd generation in the US who don't speak English - they live in Spanish enclaves and manage to get by without using English even if they're firmly embedded in English-speaking America. So it's not entirely rural vs. urban.

How common are those? "Monolingual english speaker" is pretty dominant for people of hispanic descent by the third-generation (72% of the hispanic population), and the only long-lasting, intergenerational "spanish-only" enclaves I've read about are certain areas in southern Florida.

Which is not to say that there aren't areas where spanish-speaking is dominant, but they tend to be areas where a very large percentage of the population consists of first-generation hispanic immigrants.

[Broomstick]

Here in the US we have people of Latin American descent in the cities who are 2nd or 3rd generation in the US who don't speak English - they live in Spanish enclaves and manage to get by without using English even if they're firmly embedded in English-speaking America. So it's not entirely rural vs. urban.

How common are those? "Monolingual english speaker" is pretty dominant for people of hispanic descent by the third-generation (72% of the hispanic population), and the only long-lasting, intergenerational "spanish-only" enclaves I've read about are certain areas in southern Florida.

Chicago's Pilsen neighborhood is nearly monolingual Spanish. I've been there, not only are all the signs in Spanish, good luck going into a store and trying to do business in anything other than Spanish. I've gotten a "Gringo, you don't belong here" before in that area - gee, thanks asshole.

Reported by public school teachers I know who work in Chicago, some of their current students are the children (or grandchildren) of some of their former students and the current generation is just as English-poor as the one or two generations ago. Florida probably has the largest such enclaves, but Chicago has one and there are probably others as well.

[Justice]

Here in the US we have people of Latin American descent in the cities who are 2nd or 3rd generation in the US who don't speak English - they live in Spanish enclaves and manage to get by without using English even if they're firmly embedded in English-speaking America. So it's not entirely rural vs. urban.

How common are those? "Monolingual english speaker" is pretty dominant for people of hispanic descent by the third-generation (72% of the hispanic population), and the only long-lasting, intergenerational "spanish-only" enclaves I've read about are certain areas in southern Florida.

Which is not to say that there aren't areas where spanish-speaking is dominant, but they tend to be areas where a very large percentage of the population consists of first-generation hispanic immigrants.

Interestingly enough, looking at those figures you can see a fairly sizable gap between immigrants from most Asian countries and immigrants from Hispanic countries. God knows how many factors economic, cultural, and otherwise feed into that.

[Serafina]

And a couple of exerts from Wulffs speech. Translation done by myself, so it'll hardly be perfect:
"The Turks in Germany are welcome, they are part of our country. No one has to give up his cultural identity or deny his heritage - in the end, the only thing that matters is that we all respect and follow the rules and customs needed to live together peacefully."
"Freedom of religion is an important part of the values of the European community - not everyone might agree with that, but i think it's invaluable for the future of our world."
He also said the he think it's wrong to say that a "hole group of people is unwilling to integrate", referring to the Turkish immigrants.

Remember that Wulff is pretty conservative - the only conservatives that really disagree with him are those in the bavarian CSU, and those are known to be really backwards (for european/german standards anyway).

[Colonel Olrik]

as I am an emigrant in Germany, even if a "good" one as a fellow educated European from the E.U, allow me to say a few words.

Concerning learning the language: I expect that it is only of common sense that if you want to feel welcome and integrated in foreign country you need to show that at least you're making an effort at speaking like the locals. My German is far from perfect, which annoys me since I've been here for almost seven years, but its quite OK and I try to improve and speak it. And I never ask people to speak in English with me, unless they offer (or if they want my money, then we damn should speak in a language I control fully). 90% of the random people I meet are ok with this. This leave out the assholes.

Assholes: a salesman here, a tax advisor there. They see a young mediterranic looking guy who doesn't speak perfectly, and get arrogant. In this occasions it's great to have a business card with a Dr title. It shuts them up quite deliciously. Most foreigners don't have this option.

Integration: since I arrived I made a point of not seeking out my countrymen. If I meet someone by chance, great. Otherwise, if I wanted to only be around Portuguese, I'd have stayed in Portugal. However, too many emigrants do precisely this and the Turkish are the most visible since there are many.

Strongly encouraging emigrants to take German and other courses helps against this happening, but I don't know any perfect solution. In the end, there are countless turkish, several friends of mine, who are proud of their dual nationality and feel terrible about all this arguments, while ohers are less integrated, but have perfectly calm and productive lives.

[hongi]

I always liked some hybrid between multiculturalism and a melting pot theory. That is, there's some give and take from the immigrating culture and the established one. Let them smash into each other and see what sort of ugly looking kid they stamp out. Cultural purity is overrated.

Is it the case that the concept of multiculturalism has failed in Germany, or rather that the application of multiculturalism has failed? Because we're doing okay here. Not perfect, but okay. Even multiculturalism allows for integration, in fact it's sort of predicated on the belief that everyone will benefit from the confluence of numerous cultures.

Incidentally, in my previous posts in this thread, I've never said that Germany should do this or that. I've stuck to asking questions because I'm ignorant of German politics and history.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I always liked some hybrid between multiculturalism and a melting pot theory. That is, there's some give and take from the immigrating culture and the established one. Let them smash into each other and see what sort of ugly looking kid they stamp out. Cultural purity is overrated.

If you read my previous posts in this thread, I've never said that Germany should do this or that. I've stuck to asking questions because I'm ignorant of German politics and history. What I don't think Germany should do, even if it's as bad as Thanas and others say it is, is to enforce cultural dissolution. Enforcement has a tendency to manifest in an authoritative and oppressive form. The most infamous example in this country is how we took biracial Aboriginal kids from their families to inculcate them in the superior White culture.

Is it the case that the concept of multiculturalism has failed in Germany, or rather that the application of multiculturalism has failed? Because we're doing okay here. Not perfect, but okay. Even multiculturalism allows for integration, in fact it's sort of predicated on the belief that everyone will benefit from the confluence of numerous cultures.

Except in this case, the culture integrating is one with some of the most pre-medieval practices known to man, like honor-killings. One may want a somewhat more controlled melting pot scenario, and enforcement to end those practices NEEDS to be repressive.

[hongi]

Integration also means that you respect the laws of the country of which you are a citizen. Honour killings are illegal.

[Stargate Nerd]

As someone with a Turkish background, who was born and lived in Germany for 17 years, I'd like to share my thoughts on both Mrs. Merkel's and a few of the comments I've seen in this thread. Foreigners, whether Turkish or not, have never been very welcome in Germany. Yes Turks have received the brunt of the criticisms, but they are the most visible due to the fact that they are the biggest group. From my own experience Croatians, Italians, Russians, Serbs, Albanians or Greeks are no more integrated into German society than are Turks. Of course I guess it depends on what you think integration means. But in my experiences those ethnicities tend to stick to their own just as much as Turks do. And in fact different foreigner groups are more likely to be "integrated" with each other than German society at large. Of course theses are anecdotes based on the city of Stuttgart. But I highly doubt that the situation is much different in other parts of Germany so this good immigrant, bad immigrant spiel is highly irritating.

I also think that there are a lot of exaggerations floating around, regarding the lack of German skills, Isolation from mainstream society and Religious Extremism.

I keep reading about the need to learn German, finish school and work. But I simply don't accept the premise that Turkish people in general don't already do this in Germany. All of the kids in my neighborhood, whether Turkish, Greek or Italian all got at least their Hauptschulabschluss and went on to either complete an apprenticeship or started working right out of school. Of course I can't deny that there must be 2nd Generation Turks in Germany who don't speak German, didn't complete School and don't work.My anecdotes can't disprove any of those claims. But chances are if it was a really widespread problem I would have encountered it having having lived in Germany and also spent time in other cities such as Mainz or Ingolstadt.

This brings me to the honor killings. Again I can't deny that there must have been actual cases, but how widespread is this problem? There are 2+ million Turks living in Germany, can you really generalize a few isolated honor killings and claim that the entire Turkish community in Germany engages in such barbarous activities?

Also I'd like to point something out, even if every Turk in Germany spoke excellent German, became Christian and got a university degree, how willing is German society to accept those who wish to integrate? Because as it stands, a very large number of young Turkish professionals are leaving Germany every year, because they feel they integration into German society is impossible no matter how hard they try. Germany has big problems integrating ethnic Germans returning from Russia, let alone Muslim Turks.

Now from my generally negative post, one might infer that I'm insinuating that Germans are all uncompromising bigots, that is certainly not the case. But I gotta say these crass over generalizations really remind me of Ronald Reagan and his welfare queens riding around in Cadillacs.

[Thanas]

I'll just quote the relevant study in German:

Türkischstämmige Migranten haben nicht nur eine fast schon ein halbes Jahrhundert
währende Geschichte im Einwanderungsland Deutschland, sie stellen auch die zweitgrößte
Gruppe von Migranten dar. Umso bedenklicher ist es, dass sie im Integrationsvergleich
mit Abstand am schlechtesten abschneiden. Besonders alarmierend sind der hohe Anteil
von Personen ohne Bildungsabschluss und die sehr hohe Erwerbslosigkeit unter den
Jugendlichen. In kaum einem Bereich verläuft die Integration dieser Herkunftsgruppe wirklich
gut. Vielmehr verstärkt sich der Eindruck, dass sich ein Teil der türkischen Mitbürgerinnen
und Mitbürger in eigene soziale Gemeinschaften zurückziehen.

Obwohl die meisten türkischen Migranten schon seit langem in Deutschland leben
und knapp die Hälfte von ihnen sogar hier geboren wurde, zeigen sie die geringste Tendenz
zur Assimilation. Nur 32 Prozent haben bisher die deutsche Staatsbürgerschaft
angenommen. Ein Grund dafür könnte das deutsche Einbürgerungsgesetz sein, das eine
doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft nur für Minderjährige vorsieht – und das auch erst seit dem
Jahr 2000. Mit dem achtzehnten Geburtstag muss eine Entscheidung für oder gegen die
deutsche Staatsbürgerschaft erfolgen. Vielen Türkischstämmigen in Deutschland scheint
der Schritt, sich auch über den rechtlichen Status zu Deutschland zu bekennen, schwer
zu fallen. Gleichwohl sind diejenigen, die sich für einen deutschen Pass entschieden haben,
deutlich besser integriert. Das deutet darauf hin, dass in dieser Gruppe Integrationserfolg
und Einbürgerungswille zusammenhängen. Wie wichtig für türkischstämmige Migranten
die eigene soziale Gemeinschaft ist, zeigt sich noch offensichtlicher am äußerst geringen
Anteil bikultureller Ehen: Er liegt bei nur fünf Prozent. Für diesen geringen Anteil dürfte
wie bei Personen, die aus dem Nahen Osten stammen, auch der muslimische Glaube eine
Rolle spielen. Dies trifft in einem ähnlichen Maß auf die zweite Generation zu, in der der
Anteil bikultureller Ehen nur minimal steigt. In der Fachwelt wird noch kontrovers darüber
diskutiert, ob der hier verwendete und diskutierte Indikator bikultureller Ehen
als Zeichen für Vermischung mit der Mehrheitsgesellschaft ein ausschlaggebendes
Kriterium für gute Integration ist. Aber selbst wenn dies nicht der Fall sein sollte – auch im
Bildungsbereich und im Erwerbsleben sind die Türkischstämmigen äußerst schlecht integriert.

In keiner anderen Herkunftsgruppe finden sich mehr Menschen ohne Bildungsabschluss
(30 Prozent) und weniger mit einer Hochschulberechtigung (14 Prozent). Dabei sind wie in den anderen Herkunftsgruppen deutlich mehr Frauen als Männer ohne Bildungsabschluss geblieben – anders als bei den Einheimischen. Frauen erreichten bisher auch seltener die Hochschulreife.
Einziger Hoffungsschimmer: Die Mädchen holen aber auf und stellen inzwischen an der
gymnasialen Oberstufe gegenüber den Jungen die Mehrheit. Im Schnitt verbessert sich
das Bildungsniveau der türkischstämmigen Migrantengruppe von der ersten zur zweiten Generation. Dennoch schneidet die zweite türkische Generation im Bildungsbereich
deutlich schlechter ab als die in Deutschland geborenen Mitglieder aller anderen Herkunftsgruppen.

PDF

Relavant pages: 36-37 and the diagram on page 45 to compare them to other immigrants.

Summary in english:
- only 32% have a German passport
- only 5% marry a German of non-turkish ethnicity
- 30% have no education at all
- Only 14% reach the highest level of school

[Stargate Nerd]

Relavant pages: 36-37 and the diagram on page 45 to compare them to other immigrants.

Summary in english:
- only 32% have a German passport
- only 5% marry a German of non-turkish ethnicity
- 30% have no education at all
- Only 14% reach the highest level of school

There usually are reasons for each of those that numbers alone don't tell, so merely going by numbers can be misleading. But ok, so lets assume those are the requirements for successful integration, German citizenship, intermarriage and Education levels.

According to your report:
- Only 4% of foreigners of Portuguese, Spanish, Italian or Greek background have applied for German citizenship. And another 14% were born German. That means 82% clung to their old citizenship. (p.21, center column)
- among those with a Yugoslavian heritage, 81% still retain their non-German citizenship (p.22, center column)

So when it comes to acquiring German citizenship, two groups of foreigners have a lower citizenship rates than Turks. (32% vs. 18%/19%)

Also the handy chart on p.22 gives us a better idea on naturalization rates in Germany among foreigners.
- Ethnic Germans from Russia with a 100% German citizenship rate
- foreigners from Eastern European countries and Western European countries, with a ~42% German citizenship rate
- people of African heritage with a ~41% German citizenship rate
- Far East Asians with a ~39% German citizenship rate
- Middle Eastern foreigners with a ~40% German citizenship rate

Next comes Turks (32%), Yugoslavs (19%) and Southern Europeans (18%).
So the group with the second highest naturalization rate is only 10% points ahead of the Turks, with the last place group being 14% points behind the Turks. Hardly the abysmal picture some are painting.


Let's compare the other criteria with other groups of foreigners (I'll include Turkish figures in parentheses for easier comparison):

Southern Europeans:
- 25% marry a German (low point 14% for Greeks, high point 50% for Spaniards) (5% for Turks)
- 17% have no education at all (30% for Turks)
- 28% reach the highest level of school (13% for Turks)

Yugoslavs:
- 14% marry a German (5% for Turks)
- 14% have no education at all (30% for Turks)
- 20% reach the highest level of school (13% for Turks)

Africans:
- 34% marry a German (5% for Turks)
- 25% have no education at all (30% for Turks)
- 21% reach the highest level of school (13% for Turks)

Ethnic Germans Immigrants:
- 18% marry a German (5% for Turks)
- 3% have no education at all (30% for Turks)
- 28% reach the highest level of school (13% for Turks)

Far-east Asians:
- 31% marry a German (5% for Turks)
- 18% have no education at all (30% for Turks)
- 48% reach the highest level of school (13% for Turks)

Middle Eastern:
- 18% marry a German (5% for Turks)
- 22% have no education at all (30% for Turks)
- 38% reach the highest level of school (13% for Turks)

foreigners from Eastern European countries and Western European countries:
- 61% marry a German (5% for Turks)
- 3% have no education at all (30% for Turks)
- 51% reach the highest level of school (13% for Turks)

So yes according to these figures Turks are on average less successfully integrated, but as I suspected the other groups with the exception of the last, are hardly awe inspiring success stories as has been claimed. Africans and Middle Easterns have similar figures when it comes to Highschool drop out rates, the rate of reaching the highest degree of education isn't too high among Yugoslavs and Africans either. The only category where there is a stark difference is intermarriage. And when it comes to naturalization Turks are actually right in the middle of things.

[Thanas]

According to your report:
- Only 4% of foreigners of Portuguese, Spanish, Italian or Greek background have applied for German citizenship. And another 14% were born German. That means 82% clung to their old citizenship. (p.21, center column)
- among those with a Yugoslavian heritage, 81% still retain their non-German citizenship (p.22, center column)

So when it comes to acquiring German citizenship, two groups of foreigners have a lower citizenship rates than Turks. (32% vs. 18%/19%)

The Portugese, Spanish, Italians or Greeks do not have to apply for citizenships - they are already members of the EU. I think there is quite a difference between that and non EU members.

So the group with the second highest naturalization rate is only 10% points ahead of the Turks, with the last place group being 14% points behind the Turks. Hardly the abysmal picture some are painting.

It is abysmal considering how long they have been here compared to the others. The Eastern Europeans for example have only been here for 20 years maximum and already they are better integrated than people who have lived here their entire life.

So yes according to these figures Turks are on average less successfully integrated, but as I suspected the other groups with the exception of the last, are hardly awe inspiring success stories as has been claimed.

Nobody claimed they were awe-inspiring success stories, but they are much, much better integrated (the figures you cited are nearly 50% more).

The only category where there is a stark difference is intermarriage

What? You don't count the double number of highly educated people etc stark differences?

[Stargate Nerd]

According to your report:
- Only 4% of foreigners of Portuguese, Spanish, Italian or Greek background have applied for German citizenship. And another 14% were born German. That means 82% clung to their old citizenship. (p.21, center column)
- among those with a Yugoslavian heritage, 81% still retain their non-German citizenship (p.22, center column)

So when it comes to acquiring German citizenship, two groups of foreigners have a lower citizenship rates than Turks. (32% vs. 18%/19%)

The Portugese, Spanish, Italians or Greeks do not have to apply for citizenships - they are already members of the EU. I think there is quite a difference between that and non EU members.

Oh please. Your own report calls the low citizenship rates "ERSTAUNLICH". If there was such a great difference, the authors wouldn't be calling these low rates ASTONISHING. And I also love how among foreigners from other EU countries the citizenship rate is 42%. Clearly the English, French, Swedish, Polish etc did not get your memo.

It is abysmal considering how long they have been here compared to the others. The Eastern Europeans for example have only been here for 20 years maximum and already they are better integrated than people who have lived here their entire life.

That's not what your report says. According to your report they came in the 60s and 70s and another 30% came in the 90s. 2010 minus 1960 or 1970 is clearly not 20.

Nobody claimed they were awe-inspiring success stories, but they are much, much better integrated (the figures you cited are nearly 50% more).

Actually yes. Your own very first two post in this thread make it seems like other foreigners are integrating better by leaps and bounds. Claims the data doesn't support.

What? You don't count the double number of highly educated people etc stark differences?

All by itself perhaps yes. But not in the picture you painted, where all other foreigners are perfectly integrated and Turks are not.

Also I do wonder that the rates of educated non-Turkish foreigners leaving Germany each year is. Because according to Spiegel.de "the vast majority of emigrants who return to Turkey are young academics" (http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 05,00.html) I'm pretty sure that the education numbers are influenced by this. (According the report there are 2.8 million Turks living in Germany. 13% of 2.8 million is 364k. 40k is ~10% of 364k.)


Also, I do recall asking about all Turkish enclaves where no one speaks German and the Honor Killings that seem to be going on. Neither of these is addressed by your report.

[Colonel Olrik]

Oh please. Your own report calls the low citizenship rates "ERSTAUNLICH". If there was such a great difference, the authors wouldn't be calling these low rates ASTONISHING. And I also love how among foreigners from other EU countries the citizenship rate is 42%. Clearly the English, French, Swedish, Polish etc did not get your memo.

Unlike the Brits, Swedish, etc the great majority of Portuguese, Greek and Spanish that come to Germany do unqualified work - lower classes attracted by a much higher salary than in their respective relatively poor countries. They mostly intend to work for a decade and wish to go back home, think Germany is cold and unfriendly and just don't have strong drive to mix with the "German" population. I say "German" because for them I'm also quite German, as are the other emmigrants who actually like it here and are integrated in society .

And yes, in comparison with the Turkish and non-EU, the motivation for a EU citizen to ask for German citizenship is minimal. I can go everywhere and do everything for as long as I want, and don't have more trouble than a German citizen because of it. The eight years waiting period is also quite annoying by the way as I'm in a rarer situation - I need to get the nationality urgently to take an active part in German-eyes only projects, and officially I still need to wait another year.

[Stargate Nerd]

Oh please. Your own report calls the low citizenship rates "ERSTAUNLICH". If there was such a great difference, the authors wouldn't be calling these low rates ASTONISHING. And I also love how among foreigners from other EU countries the citizenship rate is 42%. Clearly the English, French, Swedish, Polish etc did not get your memo.

Unlike the Brits, Swedish, etc the great majority of Portuguese, Greek and Spanish that come to Germany do unqualified work - lower classes attracted by a much higher salary than in their respective relatively poor countries. They mostly intend to work for a decade and wish to go back home, think Germany is cold and unfriendly and just don't have strong drive to mix with the "German" population. I say "German" because for them I'm also quite German, as are the other emmigrants who actually like it here and are integrated in society .

And yes, in comparison with the Turkish and non-EU, the motivation for a EU citizen to ask for German citizenship is minimal. I can go everywhere and do everything for as long as I want, and don't have more trouble than a German citizen because of it. The eight years waiting period is also quite annoying by the way as I'm in a rarer situation - I need to get the nationality urgently to take an active part in German-eyes only projects, and officially I still need to wait another year.

As I said before, there's always explanation that's raw figures or statistics alone don't disclose. There are a myriad of reasons why Turks don't apply for German citizenship either. They range from the desire to eventually go back to Turkey for first generation immigrants, to the requirement to drop Turkish citizenship which many do not wish to do because they neither feel safe nor welcome in Germany.

But at the end of the day the % of people having citizenship hailing from other EU countries such as France, Sweden or Poland is much higher at 48%. So "And yes, in comparison with the Turkish and non-EU, the motivation for a EU citizen to ask for German citizenship is minimal." doesn't quite cut it.

[Thanas]

Oh please. Your own report calls the low citizenship rates "ERSTAUNLICH". If there was such a great difference, the authors wouldn't be calling these low rates ASTONISHING. And I also love how among foreigners from other EU countries the citizenship rate is 42%. Clearly the English, French, Swedish, Polish etc did not get your memo.

Olrik already dealt with that, a point you failed to address at all. They do not have the need for it, nor do they intend to stay.

That's not what your report says. According to your report they came in the 60s and 70s and another 30% came in the 90s. 2010 minus 1960 or 1970 is clearly not 20.

Apparently, they lumped in Yugoslavians with Eastern Europeans. I was mainly speaking about immigrants from other countries like Poland etc. In any case, they are still far better integrated at the Turks.

Actually yes. Your own very first two post in this thread make it seems like other foreigners are integrating better by leaps and bounds. Claims the data doesn't support.

I call indicators that say they integrate far better as exactly that. Apparently you are unable to read your own data. In every single indicator you listed, the turks fare far worse than every other group, with rates ranging up to three times as worse. You seem to be blind to your own figures.

All by itself perhaps yes. But not in the picture you painted, where all other foreigners are perfectly integrated and Turks are not.

Again, strawman.

[Skgoa]

Actually - that sentence could be interpreted as both (Berliner being both a pastry and inhabitant of the city of Berlin). It was, essentially, grammatically correct.

I was always under the impression that while a Berliner is both, he should have said Ich bin Berliner. I did however just look it up, and the usual issue with referring to oneself using ein and implying being non-human is out the window, because he was speaking figuratively.

I would even go further and say that, if he omitted the "ein", it would have sounded worse. The sentence can only be misunderstood if taken out of context... and even then you would have to be a west german, since the Ossis don't even use "Berliner" for anything but citizens of Berlin.

[Serafina]

Actually - that sentence could be interpreted as both (Berliner being both a pastry and inhabitant of the city of Berlin). It was, essentially, grammatically correct.

I was always under the impression that while a Berliner is both, he should have said Ich bin Berliner. I did however just look it up, and the usual issue with referring to oneself using ein and implying being non-human is out the window, because he was speaking figuratively.

I would even go further and say that, if he omitted the "ein", it would have sounded worse. The sentence can only be misunderstood if taken out of context... and even then you would have to be a west german, since the Ossis don't even use "Berliner" for anything but citizens of Berlin.

Actually, no. If he had said "ich bin Berliner", the statement could not have been interpretated in any other way than "i am an inhabitant of Berlin"
Regardless of that, "ich bin EIN berliner" sounds better, because the "ein" transforms it from a statement of fact to a statement of allegiance. The statement "ich bin berliner" sound more like "i am from new york", but he wanted to express allegiance to Berlin instead. So he went with a statement that can be misinterpretated out of context, but expresses what he wanted to say in context.
Isn't our language wonderfully complicated?

Plus, it's a great joke, so it's more memorable