Cracked Cracks the Zombie Apocalypse

[PainRack]

A virus (although a bacterium would be more likely to exhibit this behavior) is quite capable of killing other cells which may threaten it (I'm not entirely sure about maggots, but I guess if the virus could infect things other than humans...). This would have to be quite a complicated virus, but it would be possible.

Name one. Seriously.

HIV is the "closest" and even here, the sole difference is that HIV infects WBCs. That's all.

If we can just find a variant that doesn't kill helper T-cells, we be gold. Hell, anyone knowledgable enough to update us if its the body killing off your own cells or its the virus damaging the cell enough that it dies?

[Imperial528]

I'm not suggesting that one exists that purposely tries to replace a host's immune system, I'm just pointing out that viruses are capable of killing other cells, which would be required for the virus to act as a de facto immune system.

[Bakustra]

There is the case of near-human intellect zombies. But I can really only think of one source for them, City of Dead I think it was. Zombie outbreak, military cover up, zombies spread.

From my memory the zombies could fly planes, drive, and use guns.

At that point, can you really call them zombies anymore?

Maybe? Outside of being intellegent they behaved pretty much like zombies with moanings and bitings.
Do you consider Marvel Zombies zombies?

Marvel Zombies is a comedy. Its zombies are made for comedic purposes (I am a zombie! I am a vampire! I am a vambie!). I don't think that they're all that conventional, no. But the ones in the book are still zombies, I guess.

[PainRack]

I'm not suggesting that one exists that purposely tries to replace a host's immune system, I'm just pointing out that viruses are capable of killing other cells, which would be required for the virus to act as a de facto immune system.

In what manner do virus kill other cells are you talking about?

[Imperial528]

Well, IIRC, any cell a virus uses to produce is dead when the virus is done with it, and as you mentioned earlier, HIV, which kills T-cells directly. My guess is that they'd do it chemically, just like the body's immune system does to viruses.

[Rye]

Like everyone worth listening to said, that article was dumb and unnecessary. Any half-decent writer will instantly spot those problems and account for them with their scenario. I hate to do a "well, in my fanfic" post, but since it was for my dissertation, here's how I dealt with these problems:

#7. They Have Too Many Natural Predators

Most natural predators that can hunt humans avoid humans normally and like the article says, they don't live in the cities. While I never go into anything precise about the disease, flies were not interested in them and it could well be that the disease, as a result of its decomposition-slowing makes toxic side products that stops them being attractive to flies and kills maggots in their eggs. At any rate, "still moving pseudo-live flesh with an unknown disease with unknown properties is not conducive to maggot infestation" isn't all that fantastic.

#6/7. They Can't Take the Heat/Cold

Up in the air unless you know everything about how they're animated and the nature of the disease. Like someone else said, living in hot and cold areas has its own problems anyway.

#5. Biting is a Terrible Way to Spread a Disease

Indeed it is. It need not be the only transmission vector, of course. The Crazies, for instance, had a highly dangerous chemical spill in a drinking water supply. In mine it wasn't known but it was thought to be associated with a new flu pandemic. That disease had two weeks of symptomless contact transferral like Smallpox, so it had spread worldwide without anyone noticing. In today's era of mass transit, that could easily fuck up all sorts of infrastructure and society to the point that the running dead will become a severe concern.

#3. They Can't Heal from Day to Day Damage

I'll accept this one with the proviso that whatever is animating them could potentially animate their cellular repair, or make them behave in odd ways to conserve damage in a roundabout fashion. In mine and L4D, zombies have different hunting methods, different expressions of the disease/s. They will act in flocks most of the time, but individual zombies retain more stealthy conceptions of hunting, some tool use, boomer bile stimuli, etc.

#2. The Landscape is Full of Zombie-Proof Barriers

True enough. Most of them may be irrelevant if the disease got past them in a carrier stage, though.

#1. Weapons and the People Who Use Them

Not as many guns somewhere like the UK, and like I said, if a fuckload of those people are undead from the superflu in the first place...

[Anguirus]

Like everyone worth listening to said, that article was dumb and unnecessary....I hate to do a "well, in my fanfic" post...

Are you familiar with the concept of Cracked.com? No? The article succeeds merely on the basis of being more entertaining than your "serious bizness" critique of it.

[Imperial528]

Let's not forget that Cracked also has an article titled along the lines of: "5 Scientific Reasons why a Zombie Invasion Could Happen".

[Rye]

Like everyone worth listening to said, that article was dumb and unnecessary....I hate to do a "well, in my fanfic" post...

Are you familiar with the concept of Cracked.com? No? The article succeeds merely on the basis of being more entertaining than your "serious bizness" critique of it.

I like cracked most of the time, it's just a feckless and uninspired list that relies on a lot of unfounded assumptions about the outbreak. I mean, fuck, even in Romero's films and the Return films the zombies didn't just have bites as transmission vector.

[SAMAS]

Like everyone worth listening to said, that article was dumb and unnecessary. Any half-decent writer will instantly spot those problems and account for them with their scenario. I hate to do a "well, in my fanfic" post, but since it was for my dissertation, here's how I dealt with these problems:

#7. They Have Too Many Natural Predators

Most natural predators that can hunt humans avoid humans normally and like the article says, they don't live in the cities. While I never go into anything precise about the disease, flies were not interested in them and it could well be that the disease, as a result of its decomposition-slowing makes toxic side products that stops them being attractive to flies and kills maggots in their eggs. At any rate, "still moving pseudo-live flesh with an unknown disease with unknown properties is not conducive to maggot infestation" isn't all that fantastic.

This would vary. Something that keeps one kind of animal away won't necessarily stop another. What doesn't attract flies can still be dragged sown by a pack of starving dogs.

#6/7. They Can't Take the Heat/Cold

Up in the air unless you know everything about how they're animated and the nature of the disease. Like someone else said, living in hot and cold areas has its own problems anyway.

This is more the physical limits of the human body. Unless the "virus" makes a fundamental change in the protiens that make up the body, it's gonna freeze.

But this is not necessarily a bad thing. Take Highschool of the Dead, for example. IIRC, they explicitly state that the Zombies will most likely rot away to a point where they can't move within a few months at the most. The trick for the protagonists is staying alive that long.

#3. They Can't Heal from Day to Day Damage

I'll accept this one with the proviso that whatever is animating them could potentially animate their cellular repair, or make them behave in odd ways to conserve damage in a roundabout fashion.

But to regenerate, they still need a supply of fresh biomass to convert. Again, the idea of starving them out.

#1. Weapons and the People Who Use Them

Not as many guns somewhere like the UK, and like I said, if a fuckload of those people are undead from the superflu in the first place...

Last time I checked, heavy blunt instruments are still easy to come by in a modern setting. The whole point is that their sole source of food and reproduction is a lot better at killing than they are.

[DudeGuyMan]

Sociologically, you can probably track this back to one particular instance. Some dickhead fanboy decided to masturbate all over the forums about how awesome and invincible zombies are, and then things just kinda took off from there. But you are not alone in being tired of hearing uniformed bitching about World War Z, no.

Pretty sure I lurked for that thread. I remember someone going "Bullshit, canister tank rounds would fuck zombies up!" followed by someone referencing the part where the grunt in the book goes "Jesus I can't believe they gave the tanks so few canister rounds, those would have fucked zombies up!"

[Imperial528]

A high-explosive fragmentation shell would fuck up zombies even more, or at least equally so.

Anyone remember which kinds of ammunition the tanks were firing in the WWZ book? I've since forgotten.

[Bakustra]

A high-explosive fragmentation shell would fuck up zombies even more, or at least equally so.

Anyone remember which kinds of ammunition the tanks were firing in the WWZ book? I've since forgotten.

I'm pretty sure that they mostly had anti-tank shots and only a handful of anti-infantry shots available when tanks were being widely used. I don't remember the specifics, though.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

A high-explosive fragmentation shell would fuck up zombies even more, or at least equally so.

Anyone remember which kinds of ammunition the tanks were firing in the WWZ book? I've since forgotten.

Having the book within easy reach, I quote:

Dude, we had everything: Tanks, Bradleys, Humvees armed with everything from fifty cals to these new Vasilek heavy mortars. At least those might have been useful. We had Avenger Humvee mounted Stinger surface-to-air missile sets...

...These were standard HE 155s, a high explosive core with a fragmentation case...

...The next kill zone was direct fire from the heavy arms, the tank's main 120s and Bradleys with their chain guns and FOTT missiles. The Humvees also began to open up, mortars and missiles and the Mark-19s, which are, like, machine guns, but firing grenades. The Comanches came whining in at what felt like inches above our heads with chains and Hellfires and Hydra rocket pods...

...the tanks had these things called canister shots ... each Abrams only had three, three! Three out of a total loudout of forty!

[chitoryu12]

Decapitation or snapping the spinal cord should be all that's needed to kill zombies or make them harmless. Military-grade explosives will fuck the shit out of anything it hits, since a single bullet-sized piece of shrapnel hitting the brain would have a good chance of killing them. Apaches going in with guns and rockets blazing wouldn't have any problems whatsoever clearing a street.

[Imperial528]

Thanks Oni.

...These were standard HE 155s, a high explosive core with a fragmentation case...

Reading the above line, either the grunt who retold the story was completely out of his mind, or the author needed to do more research. I haven't read the book in awhile, but the way I remember it was presented was that they were using anti-tank rounds, the kind that will create a large compression shock wave that would entirely destroy what it hit, but only move targets nearby.

Also, according to wiki, canister rounds aren't used anymore, not since WWI, due to frag rounds doing much more for less. But it is wiki, so I don't know if that's reliable or not.

[adam_grif]

Also, according to wiki, canister rounds aren't used anymore, not since WWI, due to frag rounds doing much more for less. But it is wiki, so I don't know if that's reliable or not.

The Abrams can and does use what are effectively giant shotgun shells for the 120mm smoothbore gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgn1nhUEgo8

The M1028 canister round.

[Imperial528]

Ah, that is enlightening.

[AniThyng]

Thanks Oni.

...These were standard HE 155s, a high explosive core with a fragmentation case...

Reading the above line, either the grunt who retold the story was completely out of his mind, or the author needed to do more research. I haven't read the book in awhile, but the way I remember it was presented was that they were using anti-tank rounds, the kind that will create a large compression shock wave that would entirely destroy what it hit, but only move targets nearby.

Also, according to wiki, canister rounds aren't used anymore, not since WWI, due to frag rounds doing much more for less. But it is wiki, so I don't know if that's reliable or not.

What's wrong with that description of a 155mm HE artillery shell anyway?

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, don't anti-tank rounds send jets of superheated metal towards the target to penetrate the armor? Compression shock waves don't sound like AT weapons to me. Why the hell would you use AT weapons on zombies anyway?

[Gunhead]

Don't get different types of rounds mixed up. Tank shrapnel round or canister shoots hundreds of tungsten pellets from the main gun, making it a huge shotgun of sorts.
Shrapnel rounds we're used by WWI artillery, but these we're indirect rounds meant to spread their load of steel balls all around when the round hit the ground

Code: Select all

. These we're phased out when prefragmented cases became widespread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrapnel_shell <--- used in WWI obsolete

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canister_shot <--- direct fire weapon for artillery pieces or tank guns.

Just so you know, firing a sabot round can do wicked damage to a horde of zombies. When the sabots drop from the dart, they're extremely heavy objects traveling at hundreds of meters per second. These will mush any and all brain munchers they hit. Not to mention the dart piercing any and all of the same in it's path.

Shroom, modern HEATs for tank guns are dual purpose. There's a significant blast effect around the point of detonation in addition to the forward moving jet. Some are equipped with a fragmenting shell as well.

-Gunhead

[AniThyng]

I'm still not seeing how any of this is relevant to 155 mm HE artillery shells, presumably from M109 Paladins. What is wrong with the author description of the HE shell? The only thing I can think of is that instead of a "fragmentation case" it is just steel/iron. So really - how does that betray "a lack of research" or the grunt being "out of his mind" even so?

[Gunhead]

I'm still not seeing how any of this is relevant to 155 mm HE artillery shells, presumably from M109 Paladins. What is wrong with the author description of the HE shell? The only thing I can think of is that instead of a "fragmentation case" it is just steel/iron.

Nothing wrong with the description. A fragmentation case is just steel designed to produce a lot flying pieces of metal. If you want a "pure" high explosive round, you put the charge in a casing that pretty much turns to dust from the force of the explosion. This will still cause secondary shrapnel.

While the description of the 155mm shell might be correct, their performance sounds totally lack luster.

-Gunhead

[Uncluttered]

Uh, don't anti-tank rounds send jets of superheated metal towards the target to penetrate the armor? Compression shock waves don't sound like AT weapons to me. Why the hell would you use AT weapons on zombies anyway?

I'd use whatever the hell I had.
Then again. If Zombies actually walked the earth, I'd save the AT rounds just incase Angels or Baldricks became real too.

The problem with most anti-monster plans, is that in the fictional world, the monster in question doesn't already exist in fiction.
I.E. When the Sheriff finds bodies with 2 punture wounds, and drained of blood, he's obligated to suspect a wild animal, or that the protagonist is a psyco killer. You the viewer already know it's a vampire.
In zombie stories, the name Romero is famous for making "Mr Rogers Neighborhood"

Because of this selective pop culture amnesia, you have to give the protagonists time to be able to figure out how to kill the UNKNOWN creature.

We all like to talk about how easy it will be to kill a horde of zombies, and we would all correct on this because we have prior knowledge.

SD.neters with full knowledge of a zombie horde shambling there way would instantly do the following
1. Run them over with combine harvesters
2. Dig a big trench and fill it with burnable material, lure them in
3. Build towers with makeshift airfuel explosives up top.
4. Stock up on machetes.
5. Tell the Westboro Babtist Church that there is a gay funeral taking place right in the hordes direction.

In a more realistic scenario we don't know what a zombie is.
Our characters MUST act rationally, given the information they have, which is nothing.
If we are LUCKY we know that people are going crazy.

We won't kill them at first, because you don't go around killing every crazy homeless person you meet.IE. Cops will try to taze them. They will shoot for center of mass. They may get bitten.
Once bitten, they will get the bite looked at, take prescribed anti-biotics/anti-virals, and go home to rest for a few days. Cops eats his wife and kids the next night.

You don't know it's not curable.I.E. The zombie will be cuffed, hogtied and hooded. It will be brought to a psych ward. If wer'e lucky, the zombie thrashes in the restraints until it rots away. It WILL have plenty of oppourtunities to bite unless they keep a guard over its mouth Hannible Lecter style.
Unlike Hannible, the thing can't be sedated. It will stay awake and alert the entire time.
Nurses will give it sponge baths
Doctors will attempt to give hydration and nutrients through intervenous drips, and a tube up the nose.
It's family will be notified, and will visit. "Oh whats that you want mom? Let me get closer, I can't hear you!"
They won't know its dead. Though it smells bad, and you may catch on, but chances are the sponge baths will hide the smell for a while.


They were your wife, or mother.
They will get close to you. You might even be their nursemaid, because they were bitten.
You will be reluctant to brain your mother with a fire extinguisher.
When she attacks you, you will not be prepared. You will fend her off, and call the cops. If she has bitten you, you will go to the emergency room.

[Imperial528]

Yes, but that starts to fall apart once we get to the stage where the military is involved. Even if they do not know to aim for the head specifically yet, soldiers will learn quick. And if you're sending armor against hordes of unarmored, shambling, corpses, fragmentation rounds would be the first choice, since they are meant to kill people in the first place.