Dogma (film)

[blahface]

I've been thinking about the movie Dogma lately and I think it brings up a moral dilemma. For anyone who has seen the movie, what would you have done if you were in Bethany's place? Would you help God knowing that you'd go to Heaven if you succeed? Or, would you be so disgusted by the concept of Hell and help Azrael destroy existence to end the eternal suffering of the condemned?

[Kamakazie Sith]

I've been thinking about the movie Dogma lately and I think it brings up a moral dilemma. For anyone who has seen the movie, what would you have done if you were in Bethany's place? Would you help God knowing that you'd go to Heaven if you succeed? Or, would you be so disgusted by the concept of Hell and help Azrael destroy existence to end the eternal suffering of the condemned?

I'd help maintain the status quo. Would the existence of hell infuriate me? Yeah. Does that mean I'd take the option that would end the lives of billions? No.

[Chaotic Neutral]

I'd do whatever I think ends best for me or in this case, help God. Screw other people.

[blahface]

I've been thinking about the movie Dogma lately and I think it brings up a moral dilemma. For anyone who has seen the movie, what would you have done if you were in Bethany's place? Would you help God knowing that you'd go to Heaven if you succeed? Or, would you be so disgusted by the concept of Hell and help Azrael destroy existence to end the eternal suffering of the condemned?

I'd help maintain the status quo. Would the existence of hell infuriate me? Yeah. Does that mean I'd take the option that would end the lives of billions? No.

Somebody suffering eternally is infinitely more cruel than someone just not existing. A similar comparison might be pinching the arm of everyone in the world to prevent throwing acid in the face of everyone in Canada.

[Stark]

I think you mean murdering everyone in the universe, right?

That is, if you accept Catholic dogma as truth, which is the crux of the movie.

[Rye]

I think you mean murdering everyone in the universe, right?

That is, if you accept Catholic dogma as truth, which is the crux of the movie.

Murdering everyone in the universe also includes mercy-killing everyone in Hell, though. Maybe that would be better than letting them suffer for eternity?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Time to throw a spanner in the works here I think

IIRC, Metatron said something like "undoing God's work" or somesuch
If we removed everything in the universe, would it ACTUALLY do anything to heaven or hell?

If it wouldnt affect Hell, then I'd much rather stay existing thank you

[Anguirus]

That is an interesting track to take. I think Smith fails to explore all of the implications of his universe (that said, it's cause it's a comedy). The movie does seem to take the position that Azrael didn't deserve to be tortured in hell, and that being thrown into the underworld made him into the villain he became. And then God gets off scot-free for causing that situation.

But as for the alternative?

Here is the Dogma Universe.

First, everyone good who's ever died is in heaven, along with a completely unknown number of angels and muses, who are clearly sapient beings.

Second, you have Earth, not to mention the rest of the universe. That's a lot of living folks too, though presumably a small number compared to heaven and hell.

Third, you have Hell, which according to Azrael is worse than nothingness. However...how much do we trust him? Clearly, he has a significant degree of autonomy. This may be because he's a muse who became a demon, rather than an average shlup, but there's no way that his persona results from the hyperbolic conception of "eternal intense torture." Anyway, there are an unknown number of beings existing down there.

Something that is worth considering as well. Unlike, well, actual Catholic belief, Smith's God (in the modern day, post-Loki) doesn't seem to judge homosexuals, abortion doctors, fornicators...it's even STRONGLY implied that Jay and Silent Bob are going to go to heaven. Also, even Loki and Bartleby didn't rate a trip to Hell despite the fact that this was clearly within God's power and she was expressly defied by them. So it seems like in this universe, for whatever it's worth, only Bad People go to Hell. As in, murderers. (The hockey stick kids were guilty of some heinous shit if I remember my deleted scenes.)

With what we know, I can't imagine how the end of existence is better than the status quo. Also, God has clearly "progressed" in this universe from a Loki-wielding tyrant to a rather calmer persona. If the universe is allowed to continue, maybe she'll mellow out and make Hell suck less.

[Molyneux]

What really bugged me about Dogma is...what he hell happens to Bartleby and Loki once they die? Do they just...stop? Do they go to Hell? Wait outside of Heaven eternally? Go back to Wisconsin?

I would have to say that, since not helping God would doom every thinking being who has ever lived or will ever live...it's a no-brainer. I'd be mad as hell at God for instituting Hell, though.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah, I would definitely help God

I'm not sure I would be all that pissed about Hell though. In this universe, God told everyone exactly how thing worked - you're good, you go to Heaven, you're bad, and I mean really bad, you go to Hell. It's not like he didn''t warn us

Besides, would you want to go to Paradise knowing that murderers, rapists, genocidal warmongers etc are let in too?

[Molyneux]

Yeah, I would definitely help God

I'm not sure I would be all that pissed about Hell though. In this universe, God told everyone exactly how thing worked - you're good, you go to Heaven, you're bad, and I mean really bad, you go to Hell. It's not like he didn''t warn us

Besides, would you want to go to Paradise knowing that murderers, rapists, genocidal warmongers etc are let in too?

Are you aware of the definition of the word "eternal"?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yes. "shall neither move nor age nor change it's state" is one that I normally use

EDIT: Whats your point?

[blahface]

That is an interesting track to take. I think Smith fails to explore all of the implications of his universe (that said, it's cause it's a comedy). The movie does seem to take the position that Azrael didn't deserve to be tortured in hell, and that being thrown into the underworld made him into the villain he became. And then God gets off scot-free for causing that situation.

But as for the alternative?

Here is the Dogma Universe.

First, everyone good who's ever died is in heaven, along with a completely unknown number of angels and muses, who are clearly sapient beings.

Second, you have Earth, not to mention the rest of the universe. That's a lot of living folks too, though presumably a small number compared to heaven and hell.

Third, you have Hell, which according to Azrael is worse than nothingness. However...how much do we trust him? Clearly, he has a significant degree of autonomy. This may be because he's a muse who became a demon, rather than an average shlup, but there's no way that his persona results from the hyperbolic conception of "eternal intense torture." Anyway, there are an unknown number of beings existing down there.

Something that is worth considering as well. Unlike, well, actual Catholic belief, Smith's God (in the modern day, post-Loki) doesn't seem to judge homosexuals, abortion doctors, fornicators...it's even STRONGLY implied that Jay and Silent Bob are going to go to heaven. Also, even Loki and Bartleby didn't rate a trip to Hell despite the fact that this was clearly within God's power and she was expressly defied by them. So it seems like in this universe, for whatever it's worth, only Bad People go to Hell. As in, murderers. (The hockey stick kids were guilty of some heinous shit if I remember my deleted scenes.)

With what we know, I can't imagine how the end of existence is better than the status quo. Also, God has clearly "progressed" in this universe from a Loki-wielding tyrant to a rather calmer persona. If the universe is allowed to continue, maybe she'll mellow out and make Hell suck less.

Good point about Azrael's credibility, but if it wasn't so bad in hell, then why would he want to end existence to get rid of it. Also, I don't even think that bad people deserve eternal torture. If Hitler spend 1000 years in hell for each of the 6 million Jews he killed, would that not be enough? Finite crimes don't deserve infinite punishment.

Also, Chris Rock said that it doesn't matter what you believe just as long as you've got faith. Does that mean the atheists are going to go to hell?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I don't think Azrael is doing this because he doesn't like it in hell, I think he's doing it more out of spite for God banishing him because he stayed out of the war between God and Satan

[Anguirus]

What really bugged me about Dogma is...what he hell happens to Bartleby and Loki once they die? Do they just...stop? Do they go to Hell? Wait outside of Heaven eternally? Go back to Wisconsin?

IIRC in one version of the script it ended with Bartleby and Loki sitting outside the gates of Heaven shooting shit, just like at the beginning. Would have liked to see that, actually.

Also, Chris Rock said that it doesn't matter what you believe just as long as you've got faith. Does that mean the atheists are going to go to hell?

Did he? I only recall the following exchange:

(Rufus and Bethany watch God turn cartwheels in the church garden)
RUFUS: So do you believe?
BETHANY: No.
(Rufus turns to look at her)
BETHANY: But I've got a good idea.
(Rufus seems satisfied)

I'm pretty sensitive to Hollywood's bouts of "fuck you atheism" but Dogma flies under my radar. Despite Rufus' line bitching about how Catholicism isn't mythology, it really does play like an urban fantasy with Catholic trappings.

[Anguirus]

Also, I think we can all agree on the following:

1) Eternal torture is inherently immortal
2) We don't want Hitler crashing our 1000th birthday party in heaven

The question is whether absolute nothingness is better than a universe in which eternal torment exists, but is not the state of all beings. In short, an unjust universe, with an unknown ratio of heaven-dwellers to hell-dwellers.

I think the ratio might matter. At 50% sufferers to heaven-dwellers, I'd still keep the universe, because that preserves sapience and leaves open the possibility of reform, etc. If the majority of the universe is actually suffering...well it might be moral to end the universe, but I still wouldn't do it because it's too big a decision for me. The only way such a decision could conceivably be made would be to consult all of the beings affected, for a start.

[blahface]

Did he? I only recall the following exchange:

(Rufus and Bethany watch God turn cartwheels in the church garden)
RUFUS: So do you believe?
BETHANY: No.
(Rufus turns to look at her)
BETHANY: But I've got a good idea.
(Rufus seems satisfied)

I'm pretty sensitive to Hollywood's bouts of "fuck you atheism" but Dogma flies under my radar. Despite Rufus' line bitching about how Catholicism isn't mythology, it really does play like an urban fantasy with Catholic trappings.

I just re-watched it. It was actually Serendipity who said that.

Bethany: If we've got it so wrong, then what's the right religion?
Serendipity: It's not about who's right or wrong. No denominations nailed it yet because they are all too self righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in - just that you have faith.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Yeah, I would definitely help God

I'm not sure I would be all that pissed about Hell though. In this universe, God told everyone exactly how thing worked - you're good, you go to Heaven, you're bad, and I mean really bad, you go to Hell. It's not like he didn''t warn us

Besides, would you want to go to Paradise knowing that murderers, rapists, genocidal warmongers etc are let in too?

1) If I warn you, under no uncertain terms, that I will shoot you if you steal my bike, am I justified in shooting you? Just because you warn someone doesn't make the subsequent action suddenly moral. Likewise, there is no action a mere mortal can possibly do that justifies eternal torment in retaliation.

2) Say in life you know someone who annoys the everloving piss out of you. He's a decent enough guy, he just consistently and inadvertently trips all your rage triggers. You both die, you both go to heaven, you're now stuck with this asshole for eternity, have fun! ...Or perhaps part of the nice thing about heaven is the ability to segment it so that you don't have to directly confront people who might distract you from that whole eternal happiness thing. I'm fairly certain you could make special compartments for Hitler and company as well. Because quite frankly, as much shit as Hitler's done, it still doesn't justify eternally torturing him.

[Eulogy]

Then what would be a just punishment for those who have done bad? Does helping God allow you to give him suggestions? Can Limbo be created, for those who have served out their punishment?

Helping Azrael is a no-go for obvious reasons, so the only other choice as per the OP is helping God. Sure, there'd still be a Hell, But you've got eternity to figure out how to make things better.

[LaCroix]

I might have gotten it wrong, but isn't hell only until rapture? As in 'not eternal'?

[Norade]

1) If I warn you, under no uncertain terms, that I will shoot you if you steal my bike, am I justified in shooting you? Just because you warn someone doesn't make the subsequent action suddenly moral. Likewise, there is no action a mere mortal can possibly do that justifies eternal torment in retaliation.

Yes, I personally think if you give somebody a fully serious warning and they are capable of understanding that you are serious and will act they deserve what they get. Unless you're saying that all laws are unfair if they punish you. For example, if somebody steals a bike knowing full well he will go to a bad prison is it our fault for sending him to said bad prison or his own?

2) Say in life you know someone who annoys the everloving piss out of you. He's a decent enough guy, he just consistently and inadvertently trips all your rage triggers. You both die, you both go to heaven, you're now stuck with this asshole for eternity, have fun! ...Or perhaps part of the nice thing about heaven is the ability to segment it so that you don't have to directly confront people who might distract you from that whole eternal happiness thing. I'm fairly certain you could make special compartments for Hitler and company as well. Because quite frankly, as much shit as Hitler's done, it still doesn't justify eternally torturing him.

So being annoying is equal to mass murder now? I know what you're trying to say in comparing murdering millions over a short life and the punishment for being an annoying ass.

[Rye]

I might have gotten it wrong, but isn't hell only until rapture? As in 'not eternal'?

That's a really recent idea that only took off in America. It's not in Catholicism, no.

[Eternal_Freedom]

1) If I warn you, under no uncertain terms, that I will shoot you if you steal my bike, am I justified in shooting you? Just because you warn someone doesn't make the subsequent action suddenly moral. Likewise, there is no action a mere mortal can possibly do that justifies eternal torment in retaliation.

Yes. That's the point of a serious warning, as Norade pointed out above. I warn them what will happen if they do something, if they understand AND DO IT ANYWAY, then the fault lies with them. I believe that is the founding idea of justice and due process. What is the law, if not a set of warnings and consequences?

Obviously I, as an individual, cannot dictate the laws, but if the other individual understands, then he has tacitly accepted the consequences of his actions

EDIT: Spelling and adding the right name

[Anguirus]

I just re-watched it. It was actually Serendipity who said that.

Bethany: If we've got it so wrong, then what's the right religion?
Serendipity: It's not about who's right or wrong. No denominations nailed it yet because they are all too self righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in - just that you have faith.

Ah, ok. That's typical fuzzy-headed crap. Knowing Smith though, I kind of doubt that he's meaning to say that atheists are going to hell. Especially because their discussion has nothing to do with the afterlife, just what the "right" religion would be. Note that this means Catholics are getting it "wrong" but they presumably aren't going to hell en masse.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Yes, I personally think if you give somebody a fully serious warning and they are capable of understanding that you are serious and will act they deserve what they get. Unless you're saying that all laws are unfair if they punish you. For example, if somebody steals a bike knowing full well he will go to a bad prison is it our fault for sending him to said bad prison or his own?

If this hypothetical bad prison would effectively result in a punishment that far exceeds the severity of the crime, then yes, it is our fault for doing so. I restate: It doesn't matter how much warning you give someone, you are still the one administering the punishment, and if it is disproportional to the crime, then you are still at fault. Yes, they may be stupid for stealing something knowing full well you'll kill them for it, but that doesn't make you any less morally culpable.

So being annoying is equal to mass murder now? I know what you're trying to say in comparing murdering millions over a short life and the punishment for being an annoying ass.

...no, that wasn't what I was trying to say at all. Alright, I'll try again:

Heaven, allegedly, is a place of eternal pleasure. It's reserved (in the Dogma-verse) for all but the very worst of people. Now on Earth, even generally decent people can annoy the shit out of you, in other words decrease the pleasure you get out of life. Thus, if both them and you are going to heaven, and if heaven is a place of eternal bliss, then there has to be some way to mitigate that annoyance you feel between each other.

The reason I brought up Hitler is to demonstrate that if you can compartmentalize heaven so that you don't have to deal with annoying, but generally good people, there's no reason you can't compartmentalize heaven so that you don't have to deal with the genocidal bastards. Thus peoples' complaints that "Oh heaven won't be any good with Hitler there" hold no real merit.

And if, after life, our only choices are eternal bliss, or eternal torment, then I'm fully of the view that even someone like Hitler does not deserve the latter, and by process of elimination, should receive the former for lack of a better option.

Then what would be a just punishment for those who have done bad? Does helping God allow you to give him suggestions? Can Limbo be created, for those who have served out their punishment?

Helping Azrael is a no-go for obvious reasons, so the only other choice as per the OP is helping God. Sure, there'd still be a Hell, But you've got eternity to figure out how to make things better.

Perhaps I should have made my stance clearer: I'm not for helping Azrael anyways. In my view some people being condemned to eternal torment is a lesser evil than effectively killing everything in the universe.

And I don't care about other options for an afterlife, I'm merely addressing the binary view that people either go to eternal bliss or eternal torment after death. If the Dogma-verse presented other options (limbo, purgatory, nothingness, whatever), then I'd address those too.

Yes. That's the ppint of a serious warning, as someone pointed out above. I warn them what will happen if they do something, if they understand AND DO IT ANYWAY, then the fault lies with them. I believe that is the founding idea of justice and due process. What is the law, if not a set of warnings and consequences?

Obviously I, as an individual, cannot dictate the laws, but if the other individual understands, then he has tacitly accepted the consequences of his actions

In certain areas of the world, if a woman has sex before or outside of marriage she can, by law, be stoned to death. In other parts of the world, you can be legally beaten and jailed for saying bad things about certain deities. Does this make these consequences moral or justified? These people are given plenty of warning of the consequences of their actions, thus by your view, that makes those administering the punishment completely justified, right?

Legalism is a shitty moral argument for obvious reasons.