Dogma (film)

[Kamakazie Sith]

Somebody suffering eternally is infinitely more cruel than someone just not existing. A similar comparison might be pinching the arm of everyone in the world to prevent throwing acid in the face of everyone in Canada.

Yes, it is more cruel. I would still maintain the status quo and give others a chance to decide their fate.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yes. That's the ppint of a serious warning, as someone pointed out above. I warn them what will happen if they do something, if they understand AND DO IT ANYWAY, then the fault lies with them. I believe that is the founding idea of justice and due process. What is the law, if not a set of warnings and consequences?

Obviously I, as an individual, cannot dictate the laws, but if the other individual understands, then he has tacitly accepted the consequences of his actions

In certain areas of the world, if a woman has sex before or outside of marriage she can, by law, be stoned to death. In other parts of the world, you can be legally beaten and jailed for saying bad things about certain deities. Does this make these consequences moral or justified? These people are given plenty of warning of the consequences of their actions, thus by your view, that makes those administering the punishment completely justified, right?

If that woman understands the consequences of her actions, then yes punishment is justified. Not moral, but justified. Which was my point anyway

If the person learns of the consequences, then does whatever it is anyway, they have no right to say the punishment is wrong. They knew what would happen

[Oni Koneko Damien]

If that woman understands the consequences of her actions, then yes punishment is justified. Not moral, but justified. Which was my point anyway

If the person learns of the consequences, then does whatever it is anyway, they have no right to say the punishment is wrong. They knew what would happen

You're taking an incredibly narrow definition of 'justice', because most of the time justice and morality are practically interchangeable.

And yes, they have every right to say the punishment is wrong because it is wrong, on a moral and justified level. The only level it's 'right' is taking the extremely narrow view that 'just' and 'legal' are interchangeable.

[Eternal_Freedom]

A punishment is, in my view, justified if the person being punished was fully aware of the consequences of their actions and acted anyway

And when i said "they have no right to say the punishment is wrong" I did not mean the specific punishment alloted, but rather being punished. I apologise if I didn't make that clear

[Oni Koneko Damien]

A punishment is, in my view, justified if the person being punished was fully aware of the consequences of their actions and acted anyway

And when i said "they have no right to say the punishment is wrong" I did not mean the specific punishment alloted, but rather being punished. I apologise if I didn't make that clear

Oh, okay.

But still, if someone's poor, homeless and starving, and steals food in a country where stealing is punishable by death, is killing them justified?

I think our difference of opinion comes from the fact that you're looking at the one committing the crime, while I'm looking at the one administering the punishment. If the law is immoral/unjust, then those who administer the punishments and know this are also immoral/unjust, regardless of how well known the law might be.

[Eternal_Freedom]

A punishment is, in my view, justified if the person being punished was fully aware of the consequences of their actions and acted anyway

And when i said "they have no right to say the punishment is wrong" I did not mean the specific punishment alloted, but rather being punished. I apologise if I didn't make that clear

Oh, okay.

But still, if someone's poor, homeless and starving, and steals food in a country where stealing is punishable by death, is killing them justified?

I think our difference of opinion comes from the fact that you're looking at the one committing the crime, while I'm looking at the one administering the punishment. If the law is immoral/unjust, then those who administer the punishments and know this are also immoral/unjust, regardless of how well known the law might be.

You hit the nail on the head there.

Yeah, we're looking at the different people. Trouble is, whichever way you look at it, one of the two will be unjust/immoral. That's inevitable.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Somebody suffering eternally is infinitely more cruel than someone just not existing. A similar comparison might be pinching the arm of everyone in the world to prevent throwing acid in the face of everyone in Canada.

In the case of the Dogma-verse, it's shown the God's capable of changing its mind. Thus it's entirely possible that God could eventually change its mind about having people suffer for eternity for finite sins. So yeah, I'd still consider killing everything in the universe a greater evil than allowing a limited number of people to suffer when there remains some chance that the suffering may not end up being eternal.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Thats the way to go, especially as wiping out the universe may not even affect Hell, making it even worse morally

And as someone said, you'll have all eternity to persuade God to change he/she/it's mind

[Freefall]

Somebody suffering eternally is infinitely more cruel than someone just not existing. A similar comparison might be pinching the arm of everyone in the world to prevent throwing acid in the face of everyone in Canada.

No, a similar comparison would be murdering everyone in the world to prevent throwing acid in the face of everyone in Canada. Another would be something like going back in time to WWII and killing every Jewish person in the world yourself to make it impossible for the Nazis to torture them. Actually, while we're at it, toss in the entire population of Russia so Stalin can't get 'em. In fact, the entire population of any city or country that has been taken over by a vicious dictator.

While eternal torment is obviously unfair, it sounds like most people actually get into heaven in this universe. If the majority of souls deserve to not only exist, but be happy and blissful, I just don't see how it can be considered more just to condemn them all to non-existence for the sake of a minority who are being treated unjustly. Especially since the innocent you'd be wiping out have nothing to do with the fate of the sinners. The one at fault is God, so that's the one you should be taking it up with.

Now, again, while eternal torment is grossly unfair, eternity is a long, long time. Who's to say it would really even be eternal? It's easy to say that something is eternal, but you wouldn't really know until you'd actually waited an infinite amount of time, would you? I think there could always be some hope that God might change her mind, or be persuaded to let up, or maybe even be overthrown or incapacitated again. Heck, maybe she'd end up pulling another Abraham & Isaac. "Just kidding! Wanted to test your faith. Nah, everyone in hell is just fine. Really, it's basically like heaven, except with poor lighting and no milk."