Hypothetical world war 3

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PeZook
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by PeZook »

Especially if all you need to do is neuter Vladivostok (and even then, only if it somehow is expanded enough to be able to take 10 000 merchant ships within days, which dwarfs the biggest ports on Earth :D ), which can be done with only a few weapons. With 99% effective SDI, Russia could only retaliate in the same fashion, except now their Pacific subs have no base of operations in the Pacific, which means they have to try and run the Atlantic gap.

And, of course, Russia needs American ports intact to offload supplies for their invasion force, which kinda limits their options ; The US has no need for Vladivostok whatsoever. If China actually joins the war (thus making their debt issue moot, since the Treasury will simply...not buy the bonds back on their due dates due to them being, you know, held by an enemy state? Whoopsie, massive budget problems for China!), then the same applies: destroy the biggest Chinese ports with nuclear weapons, and no invasion can ever happen, while the Chinese are effectively knocked out of the war since their troops can't go anywhere.

More likely, China could try an use the opportunity to seize Taiwan, but only if the war is actually large enough to make America too busy to intervene ; Even then, they might like their massive foreign currency reserves in the form of American T-Bills too much to do even that.
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Srelex »

Let me try:

It is the year 2012. MC Hammer has been elected President, and has decided to address complaints over lack of nutrition for the US military by launching enormous eating contests in bases worldwide. Unfortunately, matters got carried away, reducing 96% of all American military personnel into fat slobs obssessed with chomping down on burgers and fries, and the other 4% more interested in hedging bets on who will die first of diabetes than performing their duties.

In the meanwhile, Tom Clancy has assumed leadership over the Russian government after a mixup in passport control led to one thing after another. Fed up with the wrist pains resulting from constantly signing approvals for crappy novels bearing his name, he decides to make all bad technothrillers redundant by starting WW3 for real. With that, he spends most of the Russian economy on transforming the Kremlin into the KremStar, a massive floating fortress armed with 200 biggaton laser cannons, missile launchers, and speakers constantly blaring out Cher.

Thank's to MC Hammer's ill-advised nutrition programme, Chinese food outlets have been suffering badly. Pissed off, the Communist Party resolves to make fat Americans addicted to their food again by dropping thousands of tons of sweet-and-sour chicken and oily noddles across the American west coast via bombers. Unfortunately, owing to a mixup in the Chinese bueracracy, soldiers and tanks end up being dropped instead of takeaway food--with the US navy having sunk owing to the newly-gained weight of its sailors, there is not much to stop them.

In Europe, the KremStar begins its assault, drowning the Baltic nations and Poland in vodka, while Clancy leads it laughing hysterically. Owing to Eurovision being on, however, the citizens of Europe are not overly bothered by the Russian assault. Frustrated, Clancy drops a 30-megaton bomb on Luxembourg, erasing it entirely, but still nobody cares. In a last-ditch attempt to get the citizens of Europe worried, he unleashes his legions of mecha-gymnanists, which sweep across Germany and towards France and the UK. Nobody can predict what will happen next.

Howzat?
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Imperial528 »

Star Wars 888 wrote: Let's say that in this scenario you're the President of the USA. If Russia invaded Britain, and if NATO was still in existence, what would you do? Launch nukes and destroy humanity?
I move part of my carrier force to within range of Russia, along with a few subs and say: Fuck off or else. I also make sure their satellites can see my loaded silos.

If they don't fuck off, I use tactical bombardments from the subs and carriers on their nuclear sites, and if they continue, I go total war on them.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Solauren »

POTUS in a scenario LIKE this, and how would I deal with it?

How many assassins does my government have within striking range of Russia officials?

And can I level the Russian coast and naval capacity by detonating a few nukes in international waters and causing massive Tidal waves?

And what kind of space assets do I have? Do I have the capacity of dropping a few big rocks on Russia that will level it, but not do damage outside of it? Say, something that can look natural?

Beyond that, intercept, warn them, strikes, as mentioned above.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by PeZook »

Imperial528 wrote: I move part of my carrier force to within range of Russia, along with a few subs and say: Fuck off or else. I also make sure their satellites can see my loaded silos.
Since the scenario posits the US has an advantage in space, just shoot all their satellites down. That way, their early warning system will have significantly degraded, giving you the edge in the ABM game. Then strike Vladivostok, preferably with the invasion armada massing there, and wipe it out. Mine the Danish straits to prevent the Kalliningrad fleet from sallying out into the Atlantic and strike Murmansk as well, taking advantage of the fact the Russians are busy trying to support an impossible invasion of Britain. That leaves Russians at a massive strategic disadvantage ; Their choices are to start a ground invasion of Europe, escalate to a full-blown nuclear exchange or back off.

That's assuming they go through with the retarded plan at all, rather than overthrowing their government to prevent a war which gains Russia nothing at all.
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Star Wars 888 »

So I guess that the general consensus is that the USA wins this war with ease?
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by PeZook »

Solauren wrote: How many assassins does my government have within striking range of Russia officials?
Assassinations are pointless ; Officials can just be replaced, and you most likely throw away operatives.

It's better to arrange a coup by covertly meeting with powerful people and making promises, which involves less dead intelligence officers.
Solauren wrote: And can I level the Russian coast and naval capacity by detonating a few nukes in international waters and causing massive Tidal waves?
First of all, that's ridiculous: you're not going to do any damage that way.

Second of all, why go to those lenghts rather than just, you know...nuking the harbors?
Solauren wrote: And what kind of space assets do I have? Do I have the capacity of dropping a few big rocks on Russia that will level it, but not do damage outside of it? Say, something that can look natural?
Yeah, I'm sure it will look natural :P

"Oh yeah we had six hundred big impacts this week, but it's probably natural causes. Yeah, disregard the massive US Space Force deployments to near earth asteroids ; It was a scientific mission."

:D
Star Wars 888 wrote:So I guess that the general consensus is that the USA wins this war with ease?
My consensus is that the war doesn't happen in the first place, since neither Russia nor China have anything to gain from it. It certainly won't happen as envisioned, because Russia doesn't have the capability to prosecute it in the manner described and won't have it in the next twenty years.
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Solauren wrote:POTUS in a scenario LIKE this, and how would I deal with it?
Sure.

How many assassins does my government have within striking range of Russia officials?
Security would be bound to be pretty tight.

And can I level the Russian coast and naval capacity by detonating a few nukes in international waters and causing massive Tidal waves?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't those affect the US, in particular Hawaii, too?

And what kind of space assets do I have? Do I have the capacity of dropping a few big rocks on Russia that will level it, but not do damage outside of it? Say, something that can look natural?
Relatively primitive space fighters that don't have Star Wars level planet bombing capabilities and hence would mainly be for reconnaissance and maybe shooting down satellites.

Beyond that, intercept, warn them, strikes, as mentioned above.
That may actually work.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by PeZook »

Oh, by the way:
Srelex wrote: In Europe, the KremStar begins its assault, drowning the Baltic nations and Poland in vodka, while Clancy leads it laughing hysterically.
Yeah, that probably won't work...There's not enough vodka in the world to knock out Poland and the Baltics ;)
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Chaotic Neutral »

[quote="Star Wars 888"]
Let's say that in this scenario you're the President of the USA. If Russia invaded Britain, and if NATO was still in existence, what would you do? Launch nukes and destroy humanity?
[quote]

"Hey, Russia, will you please leave Britain? No? Ok, but just so you know, there's a 1 megaton ICBM coming for Moscow right now, it'll be there in 3 hours, I'll call you back in 30 minutes."
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Batman »

That's a weird way to phrase it as that gives Moscow two and a half hours or so to prevent the launch, what with actual flight time for a land-based ICBM launch on Moscow from the US being 20 minutes or so. Shouldn't that be 'You leave Britain within 2 hours or there'll be a MT ICBM headed for Moscow'?
Not that ICBMs still have MT range warheads or are targeted at cities to begin with.

Others have already elaborated on both the unworkability AND stupidity of the scenario.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Quick note: An underwater nuke won't cause a tidal wave. It isn't nearly energetic enough.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by loomer »

The only way it could would be if you used it to destabilize part of the undersea geography to cause a sufficiently large landslide - and even that's only theoretical.

My big 'wtf' that hasn't been covered is these bunkers. 888, do you have any idea how expensive a bunker for even just 75 people capable of running off its own supplies for two years is? Allowing a million people to do so for even a year is just ridiculously huge, not 'dig a concrete mould, fill it with food and people, done'. If you want it to actually survive a direct nuclear blast, then you're getting even crazier in expense - digging deeper is expensive, and armouring the damn thing is even more costly.

Major facilities like Cheyenne mountain (which has cost at least one billion dollars so far in initial excavation and survivability upgrades) can support maybe a thousand people for a week (although it's really designed to maintain command and NORAD survivability, it's a good benchmark) Supporting one million people for a year? These bunkers will need to be massively larger and more costly. Who's going to build it with the military so hugely expanded, too?
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Void »

This is ridiculous. :banghead:

We might as well discuss how an alliance of Ghengis Khan and Alexander the Great would fare if they invaded the Sun in 99999 BCE.

Saying it's hypothetical or in the year 2032 does not help.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Jadeite »

Star Wars 888 wrote:
Which would trigger a retaliation by Russia and possibly the end of the world as we know it. Would NATO be that stupid?
.
To start a nuclear war in such a situation would be suicide.
.
More reasonable than nuking a country that can nuke back.
.
What? In this scenario, NATO declares war on Russia in response to aggression against Britain and Poland. That's fulfilling the treaty. The treaty is to help a member of NATO that is attacked by an external force, not to start a suicidal, doomsday and foolish nuclear war over an argument over debts.
.
"trump card" - no, a nuclear war is a foolish thing to try and start. In the case of a war both countries aren't going to go straight for their nukes unless if they want to get annihilated.
You should really read the book "Wizards of Armageddon" before you start arguing the motivations and plans of nations facing a nuclear war. SAC was quite able and willing (frighteningly so) to start a nuclear war with the USSR at any moment. There are some excerpts somewhere on the site.

Furthermore there are a few more factors that you overlooked, namely Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Australia, and the various bases that the US has sprinkled all over the world. Japan provides a base for American and Japanese aircraft to strike from, as do bases in Guam, Hawaii, etc. Even if every ship in the Russian Pacific convoy carried 10,000 men, it'd need a thousand ships (and that's before getting into supplies, armored vehicles, etc), which provides a pretty target rich environment. Vladivostok probably wouldn't even need to be nuked (though that would be easiest), a few successful air raids with air dropped torpedoes, cluster bombs, mines, and so on would choke the harbor with wrecks and crippled transports, or wreak havoc upon shore based facilities required for loading the ships.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by PeZook »

Vladiostok is comfortably nested within the Russian air defence network, though, and pretty far from the nearest US base. It would take a lot of resources to succesfully knock it out with conventional means: nuking it is vastly easier and can be done by a single sub.

Mining is pretty cool, though. A nuclear minefield is something out of nightmares: all the problems conventional minefields cause, with the added bonus of a single missed mine taking out the convoy :D
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Wouldn't a nuclear sea-mine field chain-react once one nuke went off?
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:Wouldn't a nuclear sea-mine field chain-react once one nuke went off?
It may knock out the entire field, yeah (no series of nuke 'splosions, though). But it wouldn't really be a "mine field" the way it's commonly understood, more like, say, four mines scattered at the port's mouth.

Think about it from the perspective of the commander: damn, we found and disabled a nuclear mine! Whew! But...wait...how many did they plant? How can we know how many they planted?!

With conventional mines, you could do shit like run barges back and forth to detonate them, or just accept the losses and delays and runt he convoy out. But with nuke mines, you can't do it: you have to pinpoint every single mine, then physically go down there and disable it. Miss one? The invasion force gets mauled/wiped out and the port blocked for years.

Kinda like with other aspects of nuclear war: missing one bomber out of a wave is a great success for an air defence net if they carry conventional bombs ; If they miss one nuke-laden bomber, it's a massive failure.
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: Hypothetical world war 3

Post by Serafina »

If you think nuclear sea mines are scary, here is a fun fact for you:
Nuclear land mines were both developed and deployed.
Okay, they weren't really all that practical - prone to malfunctions (luckily, as in "not working", not "exploding accidentally), had to be deployed in allied territory (causing all sorts of political problems) and while deadly were mostly a waste of nukes.
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