African Miners Shot By Chinese Overseers.

[Sarevok]

You can say the same things about the British Empire and the legacy it left. Yet America did not became Britain. Neither did the Commonwealth. American succesor states would hardly be American clones.

[Simon_Jester]

Ah, but in that sense, the cultural aspects, the "world conquest" of Rome was even more successful than the Empire itself. For centuries after the Western Empire collapsed, it was the gold standard of high culture in the regions it used to rule, and even in some areas it never reached historically- except in parts where Roman culture was overwritten by the equally successful Muslim one.

Also, how much of that is uniquely American and how much is just "I want a car, not a unicycle?" It's not as if the first country to invent the wheel "conquered" anything by making other people prefer the wheel to the skid or the square or the guy with really strong legs or whatever they used before the wheel.

[ray245]

I don't know about those places that are quite old and have lots of histories/traditions/cultures/etc. But when you think about it, the way America has basically ruled the world is, well, the clothes we wear are based on American fashions. The shit we watch on TV are all American shit. The gizmos we buy. The trends and whatevers of society are dictated by America. What's good, what's bad, what's hot and not, what's in and out. The way we talk, the language taught in our schools. Shit, maybe even the way we think.

Rome never did anything nearly like this. We watch America, we wear America, we speak America, we eat America, we think America. Its influence is everywhere. Its influence is everything. Everything is America!

Err, didn't the barbarian kings emulate the Roman way of living?

[Broomstick]

Which is why I disagree with Broomstick that killing striking workers/miners is normal or nothing new even in the western world. All the examples she cited were more than 70 or 80 years ago - a time during which major powers still routinely fought wars directly against each other.

First of all - the fact these occurred nearly a century ago DOES show it's "nothing new". It's not new at all.

But if you want something more recent...

August 19, 1983 military vehicles, tanks, helicopters, 426 state troopers and 325 National Guard members arrived in Clifton and Morenci to break the Copper Strike at Phelps Dodge mines. No deaths at that one - probably because the miners took the thread seriously.

[D.Turtle]

Since you missed the point, I'll quote the relevant part I disagree with:

Just about any other country that has ever engaged in mining has a similar history of killing miners who dared to stand up for better conditions. So, while it's horrible and deplorable get off your high horses and stop pretending this is a feature of China and nowhere else - it's actually par for the course. That in no way makes it OK, just that this isn't unusual if you know you're history.

You are going beyond just saying it is "nothing new" and instead saying that it is "par for the course". It isn't and hasn't been for decades at the very least.

Even the example you mentioned from 1983 was resolved without resorting to shooting people - and yes shooting at people is an extreme step up from breaking a strike through the use of batons, tear gas, pepper spray, or whatever non-lethal means police forces have.

Let me put it this way: When was the last time you've heard of demonstrators were shot at with lethal weapons in a protest in a major western country? And after it happened, what was the reaction of the public?

[Broomstick]

May 4, 1970, Kent State University in Kent, Ohio. 4 unarmed protesters shot dead by National Guardsmen, 9 wounded, including 1 case of permanent paralysis. Granted, that wasn't striking miners, just students protesting war.

So... within my lifetime, if not yours.

To refresh memories:



As I said, it's not OK, it's not acceptable - but this shit can and does happen. And potentially it can happen anywhere.

[Broomstick]

Damn edit window -

Aftermath? To avoid derailing the thread any more than necessary I invite you to start with the wiki on the subject and research further at your leisure. I will mention the subsequent Hard Hat Riot a few days later that resulted in 70 injured, and President Nixon was removed from Washington, DC to Camp David for a couple days for his own safety.

It was a fucking ugly and uncomfortable time.

[Ryan Thunder]

As I said, it's not OK, it's not acceptable - but this shit can and does happen. And potentially it can happen anywhere.

If the closest thing you can find to a similar case is forty years and ten administrations old, I don't think it's fair to say "it can happen anywhere".

[Broomstick]

Oh, fuck you - it was the first one that came to mind. The point was to counter the "Rah! China bad!" vibe and really, it CAN happen anywhere. Go ahead and disbelieve it, I don't care. It is apparent you will accept no evidence that Western and First World governments can and have shot their own citizens during demonstrations, and you're a damned fool if you think it can't happen again.

[JointStrikeFighter]

It can't happen in the current cultural enviroment ever again and it would take decades for the enviroment to change in a way that would enable it to happen again.

(barring non-standard catastrophies like war, pandemic etc)

[Simon_Jester]

JSF, I think it would take a hell of a lot less than decades. In the '60s, the US went from relative political peace to very serious political disorder in about five years.

All it takes is a semi-organized movement with enough fringe crazies to think rioting is a good idea, plus some bad luck.

[Broomstick]

Please explain why it can NOT happen in the current environment "ever again" and why it would take "decades" to change. Really, I'd like know.

I'm sure no one in conformist 1962 with the Kennedy Camelot and American prosperity could have have imagined that less than 10 years later National Guardsman would fire on unarmed college students protesting a war.

It's also sticking your head in the sand regarding how precarious things are right now. One of the examples I gave was strongly related to the Great Depression, and we're experiencing times getting rather close to that.

Oh, and that rioting business over in France right now - not a chance that could result in violence and/or death, right? Oh, wait - 1500 arrested, cars torched, looting, police firing rubber bullets. Oh yeah, real fucking peaceful, all that. No possibility that could turn deadly.

You're fucking naive morons if you think that the West/First World is somehow specially immune to that sort of violence.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh, fuck you - it was the first one that came to mind. The point was to counter the "Rah! China bad!" vibe [...]

Why would you want to 'counter' the negative vibe associated with a violently oppressive oligarchy?

and really, it CAN happen anywhere. Go ahead and disbelieve it, I don't care. It is apparent you will accept no evidence that Western and First World governments can and have shot their own citizens during demonstrations, and you're a damned fool if you think it can't happen again.

They can and did shoot their own citizens--40 years ago. Things change.

[AniThyng]

True. At this point, Europe and the US basically represent two alternate models for what a First World country should look like, and while there are a lot of similarities in terms of wealth and power, there are also a lot of differences.

However, both 'versions' still have some of the same problems when it comes to outsourcing pollution and suffering to other countries to take advantage of low labor costs.: those cheap shoes and furniture being made by underpaid factory workers in China don't all get sold in the US, you know.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily opposed to factory workers in China working, it's still better then them starving - I object to the west trying to whitewash the fact that through their MNC's they are directly involved in the process, and blame it entirely on say, lack of laws or enforcement in China when it's blatantly obvious MNCs are not above buying out or ignoring the laws or doing what would be illegal at home abroad because "it's legal there".

Also, people in Asia and Africa still have living memory of *european* (not american) colonial dominance - the belgians, the dutch, the UK, france, etc, so it's not exactly ancient history.

[AniThyng]

Oh, fuck you - it was the first one that came to mind. The point was to counter the "Rah! China bad!" vibe [...]

Why would you want to 'counter' the negative vibe associated with a violently oppressive oligarchy?

I can't speak for broomstick, but it's often acompanied by holier than thou implicit "...of course, this doesn't happen when the West is involved."

[K. A. Pital]

They can and did shoot their own citizens--40 years ago. Things change.

Just give the economic crisis some time and the protesters some energy. You will see it again, I believe, and in my lifetime at that. The softness displayed by the First World is only possible in the conditions of a dying pond, extremely rich and overconsuming all the time so that the people are content.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1448751.stm

[Pelranius]

Also, people in Asia and Africa still have living memory of *european* (not american) colonial dominance - the belgians, the dutch, the UK, france, etc, so it's not exactly ancient history.

Well, the Filipinos (and arguably the Okinawans) remember our time spent governing their respective island homelands.

[open_sketchbook]

They can and did shoot their own citizens--40 years ago. Things change.

Just give the economic crisis some time and the protesters some energy. You will see it again, I believe, and in my lifetime at that. The softness displayed by the First World is only possible in the conditions of a dying pond, extremely rich and overconsuming all the time so that the people are content.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1448751.stm

I have absolutely no doubt that at literately any time, without warning, due to any number of events, the First World lifestyle I enjoy will disappear and I'll be shot in the street by some revolutionary or government shocktroopers or just a guy looting my house as the system breaks down. Change can happen instantly and nobody will see it coming until years afterward. Doesn't mean we should stress about it or stockpile guns and canned food or go live "off the grid" or some bullshit; just always, always know that beling that things will always be the way they are now is a stupid goddamn way to think.

[Shroom Man 777]

Of course it will never again happen in America. The beauty of it is that they don't have to shoot their own people. They go to another country and shoot other people's people.

These comparisons about China shooting African Miners is not like Americans shooting American miners. It is a fallacious argument! IF it were about China shooting Chinese miners, sure, then that would mean you have to compare it with Americans shooting American miners (which hasn't happened for some time).

Now, if we redefine it as "Big Nation shooting some worthless poor people from some worthless poor country" then I think we can safely say that "it can happen anywhere" and that its "nothing new" and its "par for the course". I am sure, somehow, someway, we can find examples of Americans shooting some worthless poor people from some worthless poor country. I think it is quite possible. First of all, the fact that these occurred... right now DOES show that it's "nothing new". It's not new at all. If you want something more recent.

Anyway, when China no longer oppresses its people, and instead outsources suffering and death to worthless countries whose people are not as important as Chinamericans, then we can say that it has achieved the lofty standards of Western/First World civilized society. I think China should try its best to do this, so it will no longer have the moral failings people criticize it for. Then it can be a truly free, just and fair society.

[AniThyng]

Also, people in Asia and Africa still have living memory of *european* (not american) colonial dominance - the belgians, the dutch, the UK, france, etc, so it's not exactly ancient history.

Well, the Filipinos (and arguably the Okinawans) remember our time spent governing their respective island homelands.

Well yeah, I know, I was replying more to the idea that European countries were nice all the while and didn't indulge in such things as colonialism and invasions since the post I quoted was contrasting america and european models, and it's not exactly ancient history since it's still in living memory. I may not personally care that Japan today is not the Japan of ww2, but it's completely understandable that many people still alive today hold a grudge.

EDIT: yeah, ok, i concede the original quote said "at this point in time". Yes, today's Europe doesn't really do that (except arguably the UK as America's proxy, if the Iraq war strikes you as that sort of adventure)

That said, people describe the United States as a young country - by that sort of standard, the east Asian countries are even younger - China has 4000 years of civilization but the PRC is not even a century old. On the other hand, the UK has had continuity of government from the time of the empire till today. I'm not so sure about France and the other european countries since they got invaded and conquered by Nazi Germany, but since they pretty much regained all their prewar colonial possessions in the immediate aftermatch of WW2 I'd say yes, effectively the same government.

[Broomstick]

Oh, fuck you - it was the first one that came to mind. The point was to counter the "Rah! China bad!" vibe [...]

Why would you want to 'counter' the negative vibe associated with a violently oppressive oligarchy?

I can't speak for broomstick, but it's often acompanied by holier than thou implicit "...of course, this doesn't happen when the West is involved."

In this case, you did speak for me - that is what I meant.

[Broomstick]

Also, people in Asia and Africa still have living memory of *european* (not american) colonial dominance - the belgians, the dutch, the UK, france, etc, so it's not exactly ancient history.

Well, the Filipinos (and arguably the Okinawans) remember our time spent governing their respective island homelands.

Okinawans? Hell, we had absolute control over Japan post WWII. Not everything the US did there was popular, and there's still resentment and anger.

[Ryan Thunder]

They can and did shoot their own citizens--40 years ago. Things change.

Just give the economic crisis some time and the protesters some energy. You will see it again, I believe, and in my lifetime at that. The softness displayed by the First World is only possible in the conditions of a dying pond, extremely rich and overconsuming all the time so that the people are content.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1448751.stm

Oh, those hatfuckers. Is there some reason why a civilized society shouldn't be shooting at them when they decide that the summit is a good opportunity to "[wreck] shops and set fire to property"?

I can't speak for broomstick, but it's often acompanied by holier than thou implicit "...of course, this doesn't happen when the West is involved."

In this case, you did speak for me - that is what I meant.

Well, can we not just rag on the violently oppressive oligarchy without borderline apoligism shitting up the thread? You're needlessly confusing the issue by derailing the thread from "Chinese shoot African miners" to "But America shoots its citizens too! nyah! ".

I notice this isn't an isolated event, either, and not just you. It seems to happen in nearly every thread like this. What gives?

[Shroom Man 777]

Didn't Italy or some other place have their riot cops shoot or kill some kids, and caused like a week or more of anarchy because the people were so pissed off at that?

[folti78]

Didn't Italy or some other place have their riot cops shoot or kill some kids, and caused like a week or more of anarchy because the people were so pissed off at that?

That was Greece. But then rioting is a bit of a national pastime there.