Serafina wrote:Regarding "General Order 24":
How about "The Neutral Zone", where they are surprised by the destruction of a couple of outposts and think that whoever did this was more powerful than them:
Nowhere in that quote did I read anything regarding the level of destruction those outposts suffered, and it proves nothing at all except that the level of destruction exceeds both their capabilities as well as the Federation's. Considering the Borg were responsible, it turns out Tebok's and Picard's suppositions were well-founded.
It certainly doesn't disprove the destructive capabilities the Federation (or the Romulans, or any other power) can bring to the table.
They clearly state that whoever destroyed those outposts was "more powerful than either of us" - which means that neither of them could have done that. But if they can destroy whole civilizations, why would the destruction of a small outpost be impossible to them?
You're being disingenuous. They were talking about the
manner in which those outposts were destroyed. They weren't simply destroyed via conventional means, they were ripped out of the ground consistent with what the Borg did in system J-25 in 'QWho'.
Why do we never see massive orbital bombardments?
But we do. TDiC is one, which only lasts a few seconds before the fleet gets attacked by the Jem'Hadar. But only one example is needed to demonstrate that orbital bombardments can and do occur.
As I said before, the false sensor readings can apply to the report that '30% of the planet's surface was destroyed'. But that doesn't diminish their entire plan to destroy the crust in an hour's worth of bombardment. As I said, it's wrong to conclude they can do a third of the job in 1/60th the time they were expecting, but that doesn't mean you can conclude they are unable to accomplish the task they went to a lot of effort to do! The entire
premise of the episode revolves around making a surprise attack on the Dominion's homeworld using massive orbital bombardment.
For example, look at the end of the Cardassian War - why did the Dominion only manage to destroy a single city, instead of the whole planets surface?
Lol - the Dominion punish Cardassia by killing 800 million people in a short span of time. What, did they do that hand-to-hand or something? The first city was a demonstration to the Cardassians to fall in line. When they heard that the Cardassian fleet had turned on them, the Founder ordered the planet to be exterminated. We even see a long camera shot of the devastation of Cardassia.
Unless you're seriously arguing they used nothing but hand weapons, which would be hilarious considering the kind of complaints relating to Trek hand weaponry being always weak.
Why are orbital bombardment never a concern when fighting against the Dominion, or against any other enemies?
Ah but it is. An Admiral raises concerns with Sisko's plan to retake DS9 by pointing out that drawing away fleet elements would leave Earth and other core systems vulnerable to attack. Incidentally the Breen do attack Earth but were driven off by a defending fleet.
If a single ship was capable of wiping everyone off the face of a planet within a few hours, that should be a major concern - yet it never is.
You're wrong. A single Klingon Vor'cha attack cruiser completely destroyed the biosphere of an M-class world in a brief span of time in 'The Chase'. This wasn't through firepower as such, but likely some kind of weapon that was deployed using a plasma chain reaction that wiped out all life. However, that's not the point - the point is even a single ship poses a threat.
Enterprise threatens to bombard a planet in 'A Taste of Armageddon' but we've already cited that example. In 'Where No Man Has Gone Before' Kirk orders his CMO Dr Piper to beam up to the ship with orders that if he doesn't return in 12 hours that the entire surface of Delta Vega be subjected to neutron radiation bombardment. In 'Broken Link' Garak tries to commandeer the Defiant's weapons in order to make a suicidal attack on the Founder's homeworld, citing the Defiant carries enough firepower to turn it into a smoking cinder. Naturally the writers didn't feel like quantifying Garak's poetic description of planetcide, however the point is that one ship can easily do tremendous damage to a planet in a short span of time. And though I'm loathe to cite it, the entire premise of the movie 'Nemesis' revolved around Shinzon aiming his one ship with its superdeathray at Earth.
Given that GO24 is only mentioned twice in TOS and never actually carried out, we can't conclude much from it.
Lol - you quoted out of context 'The Neutral Zone' which doesn't even prove anything, but when Scotty goes 'All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the
entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.' you go we can't conclude anything from it? It's as clear as fucking crystal what their capabilities are. Oh, and here's a quote from 'The Neutral Zone' you neglected to include:
PICARD
Captain's log, supplemental. We
have arrived at the edge of the
Neutral Zone. We will now have
an opportunity to learn firsthand
what happened to our distant
outposts.
42 INT. MAIN BRIDGE
Data is at Science One.
DATA
There is nothing left of Outpost
Delta Zero-Five.
GEORDI
It must have been one hell of an
explosion.
DATA
Sensors indicate no evidence of
a conventional attack.
He turns to face Picard.
DATA
(continuing)
There is nothing left.
PICARD
Can you determine what happened?
OFF Picard's REACTION.
WORF
The outpost was not just
destroyed, it is as though some
great force just scooped it
off the face of the planet.
STAR TREK: "... Neutral... " - REV. 3/21/88 - ACT FOUR 44.
42 CONTINUED:
They continue scanning.
PICARD
Could it have been a natural
phenomenon?
DATA
Insufficient information.
They already knew it's not a conventional attack. The manner is atypical, so atypical that Picard even asks if it conforms with some sort of natural phenomenon.
The Die is Cast is inconclusive for similar reasons, and any firepower estimates from it are highly incompatible with other observed instances of firepower.
So I guess you're going to say Colonel Lovok was talking shit to Garak when he tells him (and us, the audience) that their entire plan was to destroy the crust in one hour and the mantle in five?
Have you even watched any of these shows or episodes you presume to quote from? Every point you make is so demonstrably wrong that I find it unfathomable unless you actually have never seen any of it.
This point has beenn argued before, so I hope anyone with a better appreciation will step in if my description is inadequate.
