Trek Fleet counts

[Lord Revan]

SeaTrooper you don't seem to get just how large the federation is or the nature of Starfleet.

Starfleet during TNG era is primarly an exploration force not a military one, bulk of the starfleet would be going boldly where no man has gone before as the opening naration tells us, being hours if not days or even weeks from Wolf 359.

Btw it seems it escaped you that most of the wrecks in "best of both world" were of designs not seen before or since, suggesting experimental ships or simply ships with low production numbers for some other reason, which in term suggest "scramble everything that's space worthy" deployment, also bare in mind that the threat of the Romulan, Klingons and other hostile powers wouldn't disapear when the Borg arrive thus Starfleet Command would need to a part of the fleet on the borders.

also due the borg attack and the dominion war there would probably swift of priorities from exploration to defense (thus explaining why federation has access to larger numbers of ships later), as for the "frankenstein fleet" the name should tell you already why it's not relevant here, as it was ships made from bits and peices probably ignoring safety protocols and such to get as much ships to the front as possible and I wouldn't be supriced if those ships built with the expetion that they wouldn't survive their first battle.

[SeaTrooper]

Guys, what I'm saying is that in TNG they just didn't have the numbers (full freaking stop!). That's all. There must have been some truly fantastic construction going on to get the 800-ship fleets we see in DS9 (as noted by Stofsk). No, none of the Frankenships, one-offs, experimentals, etc., existed yet. And it would also appear that I'd misread the length of prior warning SF had, given your earlier post. That kind of blows my argument out of the water

Concentrating fleet forces around core areas? Okay, I was working off modern examples there. The RANs Fleet Base East is in Sydney. The USNs principal Atlantic bases are similarly close to Washington. To get to London, you need to get past the RN bases on the Channel coast. With all the dockyards, workshops and training facilities within the Sol system, let alone the extreme political importance of the system, Starfleet seems to keep painfully few ships around.

(Gathers shredded rags of dignity) In the end, what I'm saying is that SF is markedly smaller and weaker than they should be, given the responsibilities they must meet. The fault appears to be entirely political, both from the Feds not wanting to be associated with a huge fleet AND SF itself losing sight of their equally important 'Defend the Fed' role. This was improved somewhat in DS9 (in a apparent construction extravaganza), but still required a whole lot of emergency designs that, as you've suggested, may not have been expected to survive long.

Batman, your point is a given, and I'd thought it understood in this debate. ST are woefully slow and take days or weeks to get anywhere. But this was about fleet size, and I'm arguing that SFs was simply too small for the volumes they are responsible for. And as for the 8,000ly comment from Picard (the TV one, not the poster), I had been heavily influenced by earlier arguments that this actually means a core area of 8,000ly3, rather than 8,000ly from one end to the other. I have also seen it argued that the Fed is actually comprised of several semi-autonomous regions, in order to beat the slow warp travel problems inherent in getting forces across an 8,000ly area.

[SeaTrooper]

Btw it seems it escaped you that most of the wrecks in "best of both world" were of designs not seen before or since, suggesting experimental ships or simply ships with low production numbers for some other reason, which in term suggest "scramble everything that's space worthy" deployment, also bare in mind that the threat of the Romulan, Klingons and other hostile powers wouldn't disapear when the Borg arrive thus Starfleet Command would need to a part of the fleet on the borders.

Yes, yes it had! Really? Damn, looks like I need to watch those episodes again. Sure, this is exactly what I was referring to earlier, so I'm glad there is some canon evidence that it was done. Not so happy that I completely missed it, of course.

[Batman]

So basically you're not saying Starfleet has more hulls available, merely that that they'd need more hulls to properly do their job.
I'll happily agree with that. That doesn't mean they have the means to produce all those hulls. While the peacenik TNG Feds likely would have balked at a larger fleet presence anyway, it is not a given that the UFP actually had the resources to create and maintain one without imposing undue strain on their economy.
The USN would be a lot happier with a lot more hulls, and especially with a lot more modern carriers (IIRC the bare bones minimum carrier force
the Navy declared it needs to do its job was 12, with 14-16 being a lot more comfortable). Guess what-they're not getting them because the US can't afford it.
By the time of the Dominion War, they'd moved to a war footing (d'oh) and since it was either get the construction going and deal with the repercussions later or get overrun, they decided to accept the strain on their economy rather than perish.

As for the 8,000ly comment, I don't know about you but I wouldn't call a cube 20ly a side (8,000ly^3) 8,000ly across. That comment strongly indicates that at least along one dimension, it measures 8,000ly.

[Thanas]

Appalling from a ship availability perspective. Whether there are nearly 7,000 Starships in commission, or the BS 17,000 Picard claims, that only 40 were available, in range and able to respond really argues either for the lower number, or some spectacularly poor reliability issues.

I don't happen to like the idea of huge fleet counts, so from my perspective the fleet assembled at Wolf 359 was impressive enough. DS9 changed things by adding hundreds of ships to a particular fleet, or a fleet suffering over a hundred losses and the war still continues. In my view this isn't in line with TNG's take on Starfleet.

Given how a lot of ships were of older designs, it is quite possible the Federation has a large mothball fleet that takes some time to activate. In that context, 40 ships is still impressive - because they did not have time to reactivate and crew the reserve ships. A blow of 40 active ships would be even more devastating as it sounds at first, because you just lost 40 active (presumably newer) ships.

This also explains why Starfleet does not take a more aggressive stance against the Klingons and Cardassians/Dominion fleet but allows them to built up, because it needs that time itself.

In any case, the total number of ships in the Dominion war might very well have been in the low thousands, seeing as if we allow 1/3 division a navy usually takes (1/3 on deployment, 1/3 on refit and repair and 1/3 on training/other duties) and given that it is likely not the whole navy is concentrated in fleets, we could reasonably expect a full ST size in the low thousands.

[Lord Revan]

Btw it seems it escaped you that most of the wrecks in "best of both world" were of designs not seen before or since, suggesting experimental ships or simply ships with low production numbers for some other reason, which in term suggest "scramble everything that's space worthy" deployment, also bare in mind that the threat of the Romulan, Klingons and other hostile powers wouldn't disapear when the Borg arrive thus Starfleet Command would need to a part of the fleet on the borders.

Yes, yes it had! Really? Damn, looks like I need to watch those episodes again. Sure, this is exactly what I was referring to earlier, so I'm glad there is some canon evidence that it was done. Not so happy that I completely missed it, of course.

it doesn't show that well in the episode itself but in the DvD extras for that season they show alot of the models they used to film that episode and many of them are kitbashes (rather good ones too).

[SeaTrooper]

Btw it seems it escaped you that most of the wrecks in "best of both world" were of designs not seen before or since, suggesting experimental ships or simply ships with low production numbers for some other reason, which in term suggest "scramble everything that's space worthy" deployment, also bare in mind that the threat of the Romulan, Klingons and other hostile powers wouldn't disapear when the Borg arrive thus Starfleet Command would need to a part of the fleet on the borders.

Yes, yes it had! Really? Damn, looks like I need to watch those episodes again. Sure, this is exactly what I was referring to earlier, so I'm glad there is some canon evidence that it was done. Not so happy that I completely missed it, of course.

it doesn't show that well in the episode itself but in the DvD extras for that season they show alot of the models they used to film that episode and many of them are kitbashes (rather good ones too).

Ah, so there is a history of fielding Frankenships? Hopefully not using the extravagantly wastefull Galaxy saucers?

[Picard]

In regards to my numbers... I got them throught analysis of DS9. It is entirely possible that 7000-ship fleet was in war, but that total ship count is 17 - 34 000 ships. So we have 20-41% of Starfleet engaged in war while rest is just too far away (given apparently low warp speeds).

[Serafina]

In regards to my numbers... I got them throught analysis of DS9. It is entirely possible that 7000-ship fleet was in war, but that total ship count is 17 - 34 000 ships. So we have 20-41% of Starfleet engaged in war while rest is just too far away (given apparently low warp speeds).

If THAT is the reason why they can't use their whole fleet, their speed would be truly pathetic.
There aren't many political reasons to keep two thirds of your fleet out of the fighting, given that they are allied with some of their enemies and that those are apparently already engaged in all-out combat.
A reasonable explanation (if one accepts your intestinal-gas inflated numbers) is that the rest of their ships is simply not combat-ready. They can lack appropriate crews to man them (given that they lack a reasonable education system for military purposes - they teach their soldiers useless philosophy and literature, after all). The rest of those ships could be too outdated to be anything but cannon-fodder (which the Federation would not use due to cultural issues). They could be actual science vessels instead of the usual mashups we see, or unarmed freighters.

Any of those (or a combination) makes more sense than your explanation.

[Picard]

In regards to my numbers... I got them throught analysis of DS9. It is entirely possible that 7000-ship fleet was in war, but that total ship count is 17 - 34 000 ships. So we have 20-41% of Starfleet engaged in war while rest is just too far away (given apparently low warp speeds).

If THAT is the reason why they can't use their whole fleet, their speed would be truly pathetic.
There aren't many political reasons to keep two thirds of your fleet out of the fighting, given that they are allied with some of their enemies and that those are apparently already engaged in all-out combat.
A reasonable explanation (if one accepts your intestinal-gas inflated numbers) is that the rest of their ships is simply not combat-ready. They can lack appropriate crews to man them (given that they lack a reasonable education system for military purposes - they teach their soldiers useless philosophy and literature, after all). The rest of those ships could be too outdated to be anything but cannon-fodder (which the Federation would not use due to cultural issues). They could be actual science vessels instead of the usual mashups we see, or unarmed freighters.

Any of those (or a combination) makes more sense than your explanation.

Speeds from canon range from 1000 to 1000000c, but using warp formula (you have it on MA), warp 9 comes out as 1500c.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Out of curiosity, where in cannon, specifically, does warp speed work out as 1,000,000c? Thats aproaching low end SW hyerdrive speeds. I don't remember anything like that in ST

[Captain Seafort]

I'm not sure if there was anything that quick, but warp 8.4 on the old scale was several hundreds of thousands of time lightspeed, per "That Which Survives" - the E-nil got tossed about a thousand ly, and shortly after setting off on the return trip was about 12 hours out, in round numbers.

[Picard]

I don't know if it was 1 000 000 c but it was ultra-high. In TOS we have Enterprise visiting galactic core. There is TNG episode "The Chase", which works out to around 350 000 c. On other hand, speed of Voyager while returning home is around 900c. TOS "That which survives" gives around 765 000 c.

[Bakustra]

That number probably comes from interpreting "Where No Man Has Gone Before" to mean the literal edge of the Milky Way, with the glowy, electrical, psychic-power granting barriers that we know, from astronomy, to be at the edge of galaxies. Alternatively, it comes from Star Trek V and the center of the galaxy, which has similar "support", but whatever.

[Serafina]

I don't know if it was 1 000 000 c but it was ultra-high. In TOS we have Enterprise visiting galactic core. There is TNG episode "The Chase", which works out to around 350 000 c. On other hand, speed of Voyager while returning home is around 900c. TOS "That which survives" gives around 765 000 c.

*Sigh* Listen, idiot, they said "center of the galaxy" IIRC, not "galactic core". (I only recall the German version right now).
More importantly, what we SAW in ST V was not anything like the center of our galaxy. We didn't see any super-heavy black holes, for example.

A far more reasonable explanation that fits with what we see in that episode AND observed warp speeds is simply that they visited a planet which was a metaphorical "center of the galaxy", maybe of some religious importance (given that they wanted to find god, that makes sense). Just like Jerusalem was (and still is sometimes) called the "center of the earth", even tough it never was.
That explanations fits with the movie and the rest of Star Trek, as well as the rest of known physics. Of course we know that Trektards are willing to throw all three out of the window in order to make up some advantage.

[Captain Seafort]

I don't know if it was 1 000 000 c but it was ultra-high. In TOS we have Enterprise visiting galactic core. There is TNG episode "The Chase", which works out to around 350 000 c. On other hand, speed of Voyager while returning home is around 900c. TOS "That which survives" gives around 765 000 c.

As Serafina points out, any example that uses wishy-washy terms such as "centre (or edge) of the galaxy" is of dubious use at best. TWS is much more solid, but it only gives an upper limit of 766k, as the time was given at some unknown point after departing. They were also pushing the engines at the time - warp 8.4, compared to a rated maximum of warp 8.

[Serafina]

The most basic and also strongest rebuttal against very high, sustainable warp speeds can be summed up in one word:
Voyager
If you had sustainable, or even temporary, speeds of 1000000 c, then the whole plot of Voyager crumbles like the half-baked cookie that show was. It's main plot "we are far away from home" would not make any sense at all, since you are NOT far away from home if you can get there with minimum effort and time, which you could at such speeds.

The second rebuttal is "strategy": Star Trek wars clearly indicate that forward outposts, defense line etc. have important strategic advantages. Their location would be unimportant if you had such high speeds, just like a "forward outpost" that is 10 meters closer to Russia would be worthless in real life.

Related to that that, the third strong rebuttal against very high speeds is "Dominion War". If they had such high speeds, the wormhole would have been a small convenience rather than a crucial strategic point in the war. The Dominion could simply have sent most of his fleet on a straight route towards the Federation and crush it like the curling but it was to them.


None of this excludes high burst-speeds, but those would only be of limited strategic use. In the end, the Empire enjoys supreme strategic mobility - it would be like a modern, airlifted army fighting a bronze-age army. Even if you equip the modern army with bronze-age weapons, it can still crush the bronze-age army like a bug. Which is ultimately what would happen to the Federation, even if we ignore firepower differences altogether.

[Lord Revan]

it doesn't show that well in the episode itself but in the DvD extras for that season they show alot of the models they used to film that episode and many of them are kitbashes (rather good ones too).

Ah, so there is a history of fielding Frankenships? Hopefully not using the extravagantly wastefull Galaxy saucers?

actually these really kitbashes out-of-verse only, in-universe they were probably experimental ships not really meant for frontline combat (the models while using basic parts from galaxy, Excelcior and constitution class models modify them so (like making the windows look bigger) that they don't look like SF just glued 2 peices together to see if it works).

while the frankenfleet was a "kitbash" in-universe as well as IIRC startfleet welded together bits and peices that were never meant to used in that way just so that they get more hulls into the frontlines.

[SeaTrooper]

To Lord Revan, thanks.

Picard: Your warp estimates appear to be accurate, just with added orders of magnitude. 1C for Warp 1, not 1,000C. Take a couple a couple of zeros off, and you're getting closer to the mark. As Captain Seaford (Highlanders?) noted, even Warp 8 has been shown to be between 750 and 800C.

How exactly do you get around the whole speed/range problem of VOY, exactly?

[Picard]

I don't know if it was 1 000 000 c but it was ultra-high. In TOS we have Enterprise visiting galactic core. There is TNG episode "The Chase", which works out to around 350 000 c. On other hand, speed of Voyager while returning home is around 900c. TOS "That which survives" gives around 765 000 c.

*Sigh* Listen, idiot, they said "center of the galaxy" IIRC, not "galactic core". (I only recall the German version right now).
More importantly, what we SAW in ST V was not anything like the center of our galaxy. We didn't see any super-heavy black holes, for example.

A far more reasonable explanation that fits with what we see in that episode AND observed warp speeds is simply that they visited a planet which was a metaphorical "center of the galaxy", maybe of some religious importance (given that they wanted to find god, that makes sense). Just like Jerusalem was (and still is sometimes) called the "center of the earth", even tough it never was.
That explanations fits with the movie and the rest of Star Trek, as well as the rest of known physics. Of course we know that Trektards are willing to throw all three out of the window in order to make up some advantage.

And you are willing to discard and/or warp canon for same thing.... I'm just stating fact. But again, some back then thought entire Starfleet consisted of 12 starships (there were 12 Constitution class ships and unknown number of other ships). I think it is best to use warp formulas, you have these on MA and discard remaining speeds alltogether.

[Picard]

To Lord Revan, thanks.

Picard: Your warp estimates appear to be accurate, just with added orders of magnitude. 1C for Warp 1, not 1,000C. Take a couple a couple of zeros off, and you're getting closer to the mark. As Captain Seaford (Highlanders?) noted, even Warp 8 has been shown to be between 750 and 800C.

How exactly do you get around the whole speed/range problem of VOY, exactly?

Usage of Bussard collectors to refuel ship.

[Serafina]

And you are willing to discard and/or warp canon for same thing.... I'm just stating fact. But again, some back then thought entire Starfleet consisted of 12 starships (there were 12 Constitution class ships and unknown number of other ships). I think it is best to use warp formulas, you have these on MA and discard remaining speeds alltogether.

Hardly. I am throwing out a single ambiguous line of dialogue. You are throwing out nearly the entire plot of Voyager and DS9.

Usage of Bussard collectors to refuel ship.

Bullshit, you moron. So they have to do a pit-stop every now and then. If they could got to speeds of 1000000 c, then they could cross the entire galaxy in less than two months. Voyager estaminated 70 years to cross about half the galaxy. That's about 700 times as long.
If they have to refuel every day, and the refueling takes a day, then they could cross those ~50.000 light years in just five weeks. Even if you assume that they have to refuel 6 days for every day flown at full warp speed, they could still do it within about 500 days.
If you want to get close to their 70 year estimate, then they would have to refuel for about 59 days for every day flown at full warp speed (assuming full warp speed is 1000000 c and the distance is 50000 light years).
And that's when we assume that they start with empty fuel tanks, or that their fuel tanks can't store significant amounts of fuel. And that they have to drop out of warp, and can't simply fly at half speed and refuel that way.

In other words: Just another pathetic hand-wave, without even the slightest bit of thought behind it. Just like the rest of your utter bullshit, you didn't apply a single spoonfull of intelligence towards it, probably because you don't have any.

[Picard]

And you are willing to discard and/or warp canon for same thing.... I'm just stating fact. But again, some back then thought entire Starfleet consisted of 12 starships (there were 12 Constitution class ships and unknown number of other ships). I think it is best to use warp formulas, you have these on MA and discard remaining speeds alltogether.

Hardly. I am throwing out a single ambiguous line of dialogue. You are throwing out nearly the entire plot of Voyager and DS9.

Usage of Bussard collectors to refuel ship.

Bullshit, you moron. So they have to do a pit-stop every now and then. If they could got to speeds of 1000000 c, then they could cross the entire galaxy in less than two months. Voyager estaminated 70 years to cross about half the galaxy. That's about 700 times as long.
If they have to refuel every day, and the refueling takes a day, then they could cross those ~50.000 light years in just five weeks. Even if you assume that they have to refuel 6 days for every day flown at full warp speed, they could still do it within about 500 days.
If you want to get close to their 70 year estimate, then they would have to refuel for about 59 days for every day flown at full warp speed (assuming full warp speed is 1000000 c and the distance is 50000 light years).
And that's when we assume that they start with empty fuel tanks, or that their fuel tanks can't store significant amounts of fuel. And that they have to drop out of warp, and can't simply fly at half speed and refuel that way.

In other words: Just another pathetic hand-wave, without even the slightest bit of thought behind it. Just like the rest of your utter bullshit, you didn't apply a single spoonfull of intelligence towards it, probably because you don't have any.

....and that's why I decided to use warp formula provided by Memory Alpha, althought it is of questionable canonity at best.

[Serafina]

....and that's why I decided to use warp formula provided by Memory Alpha, althought it is of questionable canonity at best.

Instead of using warp speeds that are NOT based on outliers or ambiguous statements? Which are relatively consistent.
Yeah, right. Go get a brain.

But it's nice to finally see your Big Wall of Ignorance crumble. I'll keep blasting away at it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

For reference Serafina, Voyagers journey was IIRC repeatedly stated as 70,000ly, whic only makes your point stronger of course