Five years since Dover

[Lagmonster]

We're coming up on the fifth anniversary of what some have referred to as the Waterloo of the modern ID movement in America - their embarrassing defeat at the Dover trials. While discussing it with some friends, it occurred to me that despite being actively interested in breaking news on the subject, I hadn't heard much of any rising new initiative to advance their movement.

Oh, I know they're still out there - they haven't given up being 50% of the American population - but it almost feels as though they've run out of steam (for ID; the anti-sciencers are currently hard at work on climate change denial and vaccine denial). I'm not going to get into the whole "don't let your guard down, they're just biding their time" bit, but has *anyone* heard any significant recent news regarding ID or creationism, or has the cancer temporarily gone into remission?

[Serafina]

From what i gather (by following some popular anti-creationists on the Internet), they have pretty much used up all of their serious ammunition. Their current strategy is apparently
-pretend they are conducting actual research. There is an ID-research institute (Discovery Institute, i think) - which has produced something like 4 research papers during the last 5 years.
-publish sciency-looking books about ID.
-Appeal to the really ignorant morons with young-earth creationism
-try to limit the teaching of evolution without replacing it with ID (which is not illegal)
-if anyone asks about Dover, blame it in the liberals and activist judges

So basically, the same old bullshit - the only thing that's new is that they are trying to appear scientific by copying the style of scientists. Of course, they fail utterly - and i'm not even sure it's useful to them. The dumb idiots won't care about it, and no one intelligent will be fooled by it.

Basically, creationism has the following history:
-They were defeated in the scientific arena when Darwin released his book
-after that, they tried law (see: Scopes trial)
-after that, they tried politics
-after that, they tried appeals to popularity

[Samuel]

You forgot the last part- go to other countries to pedal their nonsense. I believe that creationism is making inroads in Turkey although it has probably been going on way before Dover.

[Serafina]

You forgot the last part- go to other countries to pedal their nonsense. I believe that creationism is making inroads in Turkey although it has probably been going on way before Dover.

I don't think it's valid to say that in the case of Turkey or the like. You don't have christian creationists going there to peddle their bullshit - those creationists are islamic, and the majority of the islamic world is already pretty creationist. It may be true in Africa or the like, but they don't have a lot to do there - the schools can't waste time with that anyway, since they are more concerned with teaching reading/writing/basic math etc., so the children are not learning about evolution in the first place. Just tell them the biblical myth and they'll believe, since there is no competition.

[Galvatron]

Someone needs to tell Christine O'Donnell about this.

[Zac Naloen]

I've seen a few alarmist TV shows about how they are trying to get into the UK, I suspect though that they will only be able to preach to the already converted. The youth of this country is secular enough that even the very few christians I know, know full well that ID is bogus.


The only real issue would be if they got into privately run schools that don't have to follow the national curriculum.

[Lagmonster]

I've seen a few alarmist TV shows about how they are trying to get into the UK, I suspect though that they will only be able to preach to the already converted. The youth of this country is secular enough that even the very few christians I know, know full well that ID is bogus.

American Protestant style creationists have, I seem to recall, made a few private overtures in England. Of course, Europe has other worries as well - recall in 2007 when that Turkish Muslim creationist sent a ridiculous number of large, expensive pro-creationist textbooks to schools all over France? Of course, that was less a bang than a whistle - the French are stereotypically apathetic towards the hard sciences.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

I've seen a few alarmist TV shows about how they are trying to get into the UK, I suspect though that they will only be able to preach to the already converted. The youth of this country is secular enough that even the very few christians I know, know full well that ID is bogus.

Indeed. They also have the problem that creationism already has a place in British schools, it's just part of a joke class that I don't think any schoolchild has taken seriously since the National Curriculum was created. The chances of anybody intelligent enough to write their own name deciding that something learnt in RE is knowledge they should base their worldview on is vanishingly small.

The only real issue would be if they got into privately run schools that don't have to follow the national curriculum.

True. Even then, though, if they want little things like GCSEs or A Levels, they aren't going to be able to get away without at least teaching both.

[Raesene]

Saw this sign today at the Natural History Museum in Vienna, visiting an exhibition about Darwin.

Compares favorably with a sign I saw at St. Louis zoo, nearly apologising for mentioning evolution.

[Liberty]

American Protestant style creationists have, I seem to recall, made a few private overtures in England. Of course, Europe has other worries as well - recall in 2007 when that Turkish Muslim creationist sent a ridiculous number of large, expensive pro-creationist textbooks to schools all over France? Of course, that was less a bang than a whistle - the French are stereotypically apathetic towards the hard sciences.

Yes, there has been a lot of focus on England. And actually, those same Turkish creationist textbooks were sent all over the U.S. as well, to professors in major universities, including one of my history professors.

English schools using creationist textbooks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 088444.stm

English creationists: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7613403.stm

Also, don't forget about the Creation Museum in Kentucky that opened two and a half years ago. They've had record numbers of attendees.

In addition, don't forget that creationists fucked with Texas's state science standards last year (and Texas matters!): http://www.statesman.com/news/content/n ... 8sboe.html
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-27/us/t ... s?_s=PM:US
http://ncse.com/news/2009/03/science-se ... ols-004708

Finally, Christine O'Donnel is I think emblematic of one of creationists' main arguments: let the local school boards decide. This works well in today's political climate with the emphasis on moving power from federal to local, ending government tyranny, etc.



Him: "Do you believe evolution is a myth?"
Her: "Local schools should make that decision."

Of course, this could just be O'Donnell being O'Donnell.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Indeed. They also have the problem that creationism already has a place in British schools, it's just part of a joke class that I don't think any schoolchild has taken seriously since the National Curriculum was created. The chances of anybody intelligent enough to write their own name deciding that something learnt in RE is knowledge they should base their worldview on is vanishingly small.

Yes. Like I have wrote here before, official Religious Education in schools is the best inoculation against fundamentalism and creationism. Although I still feel sorry for one of my RE teachers who really tried hard to make the subject more meaningful by discussing ethics and so on. Needless to say, it didn't help much with the 13-15 year old audience. One of my later RE teachers had a Masters in Religious Studies and was very smart, and I think that she was not a Christian at all. She was also young and pretty hot; most of us nerd boys had at least a minor crush on her.

[Zac Naloen]

I actually remember creationism being mentioned by my Biology teacher when I was at school it went something like this


"Today we are going to be learning about evolution, there is some controversy regarding this theory from religious groups. This is called Creationism, you'll learn more about it in RE. It's bollocks." Okay so the teacher didn't say that last part .

[Lagmonster]

Also, don't forget about the Creation Museum in Kentucky that opened two and a half years ago. They've had record numbers of attendees.

I remember seeing signs for that all over Cincinnati when I was there this summer; marvelously silly. That said, I understand that the creation museum is actually a similarly enticing destination for skeptics; I've read about crowds of them who will get together to visit and laugh at the thing. Certainly I've seen more than a few skeptic blog posts entitled "I survived the creation museum" with accompanying photos and discussions dripping with vinegar. There's a certain amount of macabre fascination that goes into such a place. I imagine that once the novelty wears off, so will the attendance rates decline.

As to the rest, it hardly feels like they're making any progress. I mean, I know flat out that 50% of Americans and shitloads in other nations are creationists of one form or another, but it's like being in a lion's den where the pride has been de-fanged and de-clawed.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

"Today we are going to be learning about evolution, there is some controversy regarding this theory from religious groups. This is called Creationism, you'll learn more about it in RE. It's bollocks." Okay so the teacher didn't say that last part .

Of course not. 'You'll learn more about it in RE' and 'It's bollocks' are basically the exact same statement just with different words.

Also, my RE teacher was an actual CoE minister (the school had it's own chapel, even), and he dismissed creationism as 'absurd and moronic'. He was a pretty cool guy, and I'm fairly certain he was an atheist, despite his position.

[PainRack]

So any tips on combating ID for your overseas mates?

[mr friendly guy]

ID has spread to Singapore? Ok maybe I should rephrase that as it has spread to Singapore with sufficient clout that it gets publicity outside of a few whackjobs. Over here it did a few years ago, but it and its ugly cousin Creationism seems to have run out of steam for now.

[PainRack]

ID has spread to Singapore? Ok maybe I should rephrase that as it has spread to Singapore with sufficient clout that it gets publicity outside of a few whackjobs. Over here it did a few years ago, but it and its ugly cousin Creationism seems to have run out of steam for now.

The bunch of whackos who hijacked AWARE over homosexuality? Two of them were Creationists. One of them is known to have made YEC statements.

Frankly, I would have been happy if it was just ID alone, what we got is plain old Creationism. Both Buddhists, Muslims and Christians, so, its a special blend.

The reason why it hasn't attracted any publicity is because it isn't being challenged, not that its weak.