Nevada voting machines going for Reid

[ShadowDragon8685]

Hmm. Maybe I ought to modify 'educate' to 'brainwash'.

Fighting fire with fire is looking awfully appealing these days.

[General Zod]

Hmm. Maybe I ought to modify 'educate' to 'brainwash'.

If you're going to go that far then it's silly to put up with the pretense of a democracy.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Hmm. Maybe I ought to modify 'educate' to 'brainwash'.

If you're going to go that far then it's silly to put up with the pretense of a democracy.

Then what would you call the mindless horde of reactionary morons who would vote for, as was punted around, a bag of shredded lettuce if it had the word "Republican" next to it's name on ballot day? If that's not brainwashed, it's second cousin to it.

My uncle voted for John McCain during the '08 election, which is a big departure from usual for him (being that he was a life-long Union man,) but at least he had a reason for doing so, even if it was infuriating to me. These people would vote Satan/Cthulu 2012 if they were running on the Republican ticket - they're the kind of person who just ticks the "straight Republican" box if there is one, regardless of qualifications or considerations.

[General Zod]

Hmm. Maybe I ought to modify 'educate' to 'brainwash'.

If you're going to go that far then it's silly to put up with the pretense of a democracy.

Then what would you call the mindless horde of reactionary morons who would vote for, as was punted around, a bag of shredded lettuce if it had the word "Republican" next to it's name on ballot day? If that's not brainwashed, it's second cousin to it.

My uncle voted for John McCain during the '08 election, which is a big departure from usual for him (being that he was a life-long Union man,) but at least he had a reason for doing so, even if it was infuriating to me. These people would vote Satan/Cthulu 2012 if they were running on the Republican ticket - they're the kind of person who just ticks the "straight Republican" box if there is one, regardless of qualifications or considerations.

That has nothing to do with my point. But thanks for demonstrating that I'm justified in ignoring your verbal diarrhea.

[ShadowDragon8685]

That has nothing to do with my point. But thanks for demonstrating that I'm justified in ignoring your verbal diarrhea.

Thank you for being a moron and failing utterly to see my point. Or you'd see what my point had to do with your point; that if having a horde of brainwashed mindless voters constitutes an abrogation of democracy into the point of being a mere pretense, then we are already living in a pretense-democracy.

[General Zod]

>words<

Except Ryan was clearly talking about everyone, not just a given percentage of people. If you're going to make the claim that enough people are "brainwashed" that it doesn't really matter, I'd like to see evidence. By evidence I mean something other than you screeching at the top of your lungs while attempting to sound profound.

[houser2112]

I'd love for everyone in the U.S. to adopt the wonderful mail-in systems that Washington and Oregon have. Vote on your own time (researching all the candidates as you want to, and you don't have to wear pants while doing it; I didn't), mail it in, keep a receipt, and don't have to deal with getting a Tuesday off (what's with not having a national holiday on Election Day, anyway) to stand in line for several hours and hope that nothing *totally unsuspiciously* happens at the polling place, which is probably a freaking church anyway (like mine is).

While I'd love to be able to mail in my vote, NY does have a law preventing you from having to burn vacation to vote:

- If you do not have sufficient time outside of your working hours to vote, you may take off up to 2 (two) hours at the beginning or end of your shift, with pay, to allow you time to vote.

- Sufficient time is defined as: four consecutive hours either between the opening of the polls and the beginning of your working shift OR between the end of your working shift and the closing of the polls.

- You must notify your employer, no more than 10 days but not less than 2 days, before the day of the election that you will need to take that time.

Polls in NY are open between 0600 and 2100. There is a very small window for a (presumably 8-hour) shift to occupy that would require you to take advantage of this law. I've never had to spend more than a half hour to vote, so even if you did have an 8-hour shift that starts at 1000, voting would not be impossible for you. Whether my experience is based solely on my particular district, I cannot say.

[Ryan Thunder]

>words<

Except Ryan was clearly talking about everyone, not just a given percentage of people. If you're going to make the claim that enough people are "brainwashed" that it doesn't really matter, I'd like to see evidence. By evidence I mean something other than you screeching at the top of your lungs while attempting to sound profound.

I was actually being facetious, in case the emote wasn't clear enough...

[Edi]

It is very, very unfortunate that I only got to this thread after it had reached three pages.

The people that stand out here in this thread, ShadowDragon8685 and Ryan Thunder, are both known to be fucking morons who more often than not open their mouths only in order to insert both feet and then kick like a mule.

However, it is very, very disappointing to see that some of the same people (other than those two) who have been screeching about vote fraud through the Diebold machines in earlier elections are just fine with the concept of vote fraud now that the results seemingly go their way.

You people pretend to be a whole lot better than the right wing you despise and vitriolically denounce, yet when offered the chance to grasp the same tools of corruption, no hesitation in grasping them?

Could you assholes please fucking grow a spine and develop some integrity? Or are you of the type that needs to have it fucking beaten into them so that only fear of punishment will keep you from embracing corruption?

Wasn't the whole goddamn idea that you were supposed to be better instead of sinking to the same level?

And don't you absolute fucking imbeciles realize that embracing the same arguments about ends justifying the means and so forth now that you're not on the pointy end of the stick validates everything the conservatives are saying about liberals/progressives?

Stravo, Alyeska, Mayabird and those others who stuck to their principles from the get go, thank you.

Those on the other side of it, just go fuck yourselves. Seriously.

I should also remind you that encouraging illegal actions is actually a bannable offense on this board. It's a really damned good thing that the rhetoric in this thread falls a little bit short of trying to discuss how to commit the fraud, because if I ever catch anyone doing that, they'll find themselves booted out of here so fast their shadows are going to have to run to catch up.

[Ryan Thunder]

Care to point out where I actually advocated rigging the vote, asshole?

[Edi]

Care to point out where I actually advocated rigging the vote, asshole?

My bad. Speed-reading can do that and looks like the post about ends justifying the means stuck me with that impression when coupled with some of the later posts about brainwashing etc.

My apologies, Ryan.

[Ryan Thunder]

Thank you. No harm done.

[SCRawl]

It's a bit more psychically exhausting when you realize that you might actually wind up governed by them.

Even I have greater respect for your countrymen than that. I can't imagine the serious voter who would intentionally vote for an O'Donnell, or an Angle.

Oh please. We've elected such luminaries as Michele Bachmann already. There will be Tea Party candidates elected to public office this election.

Yeah, but I'm saying that it won't be the all-out batshit-crazy ones. I submit to you that there are some (relatively) moderate Tea Party types -- those I would judge to be misguided, but earnest and at least somewhat thoughtful -- and there are some candidates who would be just awful. In this latter category I include the likes of Joe Buck, Carl Palladino, Angle, and O'Donnell, in a list which is by no means exhaustive. As an example of the other side of this sliding scale, while much of his platform is objectionable to me, Rand Paul just doesn't hit the same nutbar chords that the others do.

Okay, I'll bet you a Coke that Angle won't get in. I don't care how unpopular Harry Reid is, there's no way a majority of Nevada voters can't see how awful she would be if she were to represent her state in the Senate.

[Simon_Jester]

However, it is very, very disappointing to see that some of the same people (other than those two) who have been screeching about vote fraud through the Diebold machines in earlier elections are just fine with the concept of vote fraud now that the results seemingly go their way.

Speaking for myself, I am not, but I think the argument needs to be comprehended because it hits disturbingly close to a recurring theme I've seen both here and elsewhere: lack of trust in democracy.

If we're going to go around saying "these people are idiots, what gives this clown a right to an opinion and a say in events..." that leads very predictably to people saying "a little vote fraud is acceptable if it keeps idiots out of power." You can only go so far in despising the opposition for their lunacy before you start questioning their right to participate in the political process.

And yet we (you, me, and the people I actually agree with here) stop short of that. We say that is not acceptable, and that even people who advocate lunacy have a right to vote and not have their vote cancelled out by illegal means. In that case, I think we have to backtrack and reconsider the seemingly meritocratic impulse that leads people here to hold the 'mob' in contempt in the first place.

[General Zod]

However, it is very, very disappointing to see that some of the same people (other than those two) who have been screeching about vote fraud through the Diebold machines in earlier elections are just fine with the concept of vote fraud now that the results seemingly go their way.

Speaking for myself, I am not, but I think the argument needs to be comprehended because it hits disturbingly close to a recurring theme I've seen both here and elsewhere: lack of trust in democracy.

If we're going to go around saying "these people are idiots, what gives this clown a right to an opinion and a say in events..." that leads very predictably to people saying "a little vote fraud is acceptable if it keeps idiots out of power." You can only go so far in despising the opposition for their lunacy before you start questioning their right to participate in the political process.

And yet we (you, me, and the people I actually agree with here) stop short of that. We say that is not acceptable, and that even people who advocate lunacy have a right to vote and not have their vote cancelled out by illegal means. In that case, I think we have to backtrack and reconsider the seemingly meritocratic impulse that leads people here to hold the 'mob' in contempt in the first place.

Why should people trust democracy anyway? The whole point of democracy is mob rule with no inherent morality attached to it. When people say that Democracy has failed or it's broken they usually mean "it isn't getting me what I want" instead of "it's not working". The idea that democracy is some sort of force for one value or another is absurd and people should really stop looking at it like that.

[Alyeska]

Why should people trust democracy anyway? The whole point of democracy is mob rule with no inherent morality attached to it. When people say that Democracy has failed or it's broken they usually mean "it isn't getting me what I want" instead of "it's not working". The idea that democracy is some sort of force for one value or another is absurd and people should really stop looking at it like that.

Benjamin Franklin has a wonderful quote adressing this very issue.

"A democracy is two wolves and a small lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."

A representative system that does not provide absolute power in the hands of simple majorities does much to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. The system isn't perfect, but its better than most alternatives.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

California's state government operates closer to that mob-rule democracy you speak of. It's how blatantly discriminatory laws like Prop 8 get passed.

[Cecelia5578]

(what's with not having a national holiday on Election Day, anyway) to stand in line for several hours and hope that nothing *totally unsuspiciously* happens at the polling place, which is probably a freaking church anyway (like mine is).

I can't the the current GOP ever going for something that'd probably increase voter turnout like having a day off for the election. I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts the people who'd benefit most from such a scheme would not be voting GOP.

[Zinegata]

My country - the Philippines - had spent 20 years trying to have clean and honest elections. We more or less finally got one when we got Aquino elected.

And yet morons here are advocating cheating because "Republicans are evil"?

Please. You Americans *have* a working electoral system. Wanting to overturn it is just ass-covering for the fact that the Dems have been pretty retarded for the past two years. That's why they're about to get their ass kicked in a week or so.

Face the facts. The Dems pushed for agendas that ultimately didn't produce positive results for Americans. The American voting public is now really, really pissed because of this. If Americans are voting for fundie whackos from the Tea Party, it's not because they're fundie whackos too. It's because the ruling party did a bad job.

That's why even Jon Stewart mocks the Dems now. The party that controls the Presidency, the House, and the Senate can't pretend that they're the underdog party.

[Patrick Degan]

Face the facts. The Dems pushed for agendas that ultimately didn't produce positive results for Americans. The American voting public is now really, really pissed because of this. If Americans are voting for fundie whackos from the Tea Party, it's not because they're fundie whackos too. It's because the ruling party did a bad job.

That's why even Jon Stewart mocks the Dems now. The party that controls the Presidency, the House, and the Senate can't pretend that they're the underdog party.

A bit simplistic. The problem with the Democrats was that they kept caving in each and every time people like John Boehner said "boo" at them, that apart from the Blue Dogs who are simply less-insane Republicans with "Ds" attached to their names, which is why their agendas got eviscerated. And that is why they are getting mocked. They continue to act like the underdog party. No, actually they continue to act like the abused wife. Cowardice has become a deeply entrenched habit with the Democrats. Even while holding both houses of congress and the White House, they piss themselves at the mere sight of Republicans.

As for the American public, being pissed off at the Democrats is no reason to put the very party who drove the country into the ditch back in power. That they could well do so shows how the overall civic IQ of this country has nosedived in just thirty years since the election of Ronald Reagan.

And as for the idea of encouraging "favourable" voting fraud... Fuck. The only result that can come about is the complete degredation of the political system. It is disaster waiting down the road. Nobody in their right mind should be contemplating such a course of action.

[NoXion]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what is wrong with using a pen/pencil to mark a paper ballot? I fail to see how the vast majority if not all voting age citizens could not "get" such a system, and it seems to work perfectly fine here in the UK.

[LMSx]

I second Mayabird's appreciation of the Oregon and Washington state voting system. I sat online for an hour or two looking up candidates' web sites and Google News hits, along with a few trusty voting guides, and came up with a decent understanding of the mostly anonymous slate of county Charter amendments and state representatives up for a vote (along with the initiatives and obvious federal choices). Then I just dropped it in the mail. A few papers bitch and moan that it takes so long for all the votes to come in (must be postmarked by midnight at the end of Election Day, IIRC, or dropped off in a physical receptacle location), but I think the process works out well.

Okay, I'll bet you a Coke that Angle won't get in. I don't care how unpopular Harry Reid is, there's no way a majority of Nevada voters can't see how awful she would be if she were to represent her state in the Senate.

Well...that's nice. Personal incredulity doesn't count for much when the 538 projections @ the New York Times have an 81.3% chance of Angle winning with a +2.5 adjusted polling margin over Reid. He's tooooaaaast.

[xt828]

So take the bet. A free coke's a free coke.

[Broken]

While I can certainly understand the impulse to fight fire with fire given the reports of fliers telling people that democrats vote a day later then republicans, TV spots telling Latinos to not vote this election to "punish" the democrats, few voting stations in poor, minority neighborhoods while well-off white areas have enough for people to breeze in and out quickly, and other manipulations; that does not justify doing such serious intentional damage to our electoral system. Seeing the Right fling mud and play dirty tricks to keep people from voting is infuriating, but I can't see what good can possibly come of convincing the population that every election is rigged and their vote really, really doesn't count for anything.

What I find more interesting in some ways is the way these voter fraud allegations fold in so nicely with the whole "Right Wing = True Americans" thought process. After all, "Real Americans" don't vote for sissy, bleeding-heart liberals anyway, "Real Americans" like beef, beer and bombing brown people who live in hard to pronounce places. So for any of those dirty liberals to get elected, there must be a vast conspiracy to rig votes for them, since there is no way "Real Americans" would be outnumbered in their own country. A huge voter fraud machine just fits so nicely with Sarah Palin's remarks about "the Real America" and with the evangelical base of the far-right of "persecuted" fundamentalist Christians.

[LMSx]

So take the bet. A free coke's a free coke.

Let me pivot and cover my ass here by also linking to this: Guy from Nevada has a gut feeling.

I sure want Senator Reid to be in office come February 2011.

Forget the enthusiasm gap — that word is too mild. There is a passion gap in this race that is palpable. You don’t find many people shivering with excitement to vote for Reid. But the feverish animation of voters hot to oust Reid is unlike anything I have experienced in nearly 25 years of covering politics. And it seems to have been building since January, evidenced by Reid’s inability to move his highly elevated disapproval rating.

It just feels as if he is going to lose.

But I don’t think he will. Why?

First, let me be clear on this tradition of predictions. It is not a wish list but a walking out on a limb, so I can either crow afterward or eat same. I base them on data I am privy to and my gut. I have had much success in the past — look it up. But if ever there were a year for my lifetime batting average to take a hit, this is the one.

So take this for what it’s worth:

Harry Reid is the most resilient figure in Nevada political history. He should not even be here. He lost a U.S. Senate race in 1974, embarrassed himself in a mayoral race in 1975 and should have lost his re-election bid in 1998. But he found a way to win 12 years ago, and he will again Tuesday.