Aliens exist = total world chaos?!

[adam_grif]

An idea I've seen in several SciFi shows is that the Aliens must keep themselves a secret, lest they send the world that they're on into a panic. But I don't really see why that is. I mean, it doesn't seem all that different from a formerly isolated culture running into Europeans. None of them suffered societal collapse simply from the news that people existed from the outside world. There's a slight difference in that they're genuinely aliens and not just other kinds of human, but I don't see why that would make such a difference to the impact it would have on a society.

So what are the arguments in support of that idea, if any? Is Stargate Command really saving the world from itself? Are the Men in Black operating in our best interests everytime they whip out the neuralizer? Is the prime directive for the best?

[Srelex]

Depends on the nature of the aliens. If they of the ID4/Tyranid type, that could wipe us out if we attracted their attention, then yes, it would be better for our collective psyche to not live in constant universal paranoid fear. Humans are inherently scared of what's different, and aliens that may be encountered IRL could very well be horrifying in appearance and inscrutable in motive. Enough to get lots of people jittery at the least.

[adam_grif]

Depends on the nature of the aliens. If they of the ID4/Tyranid type, that could wipe us out if we attracted their attention, then yes, it would be better for our collective psyche to not live in constant universal paranoid fear. Humans are inherently scared of what's different, and aliens that may be encountered IRL could very well be horrifying in appearance and inscrutable in motive. Enough to get lots of people jittery at the least.

Isn't that just like arguing that countries should keep wars secret because knowing that the Germans are actually trying to invade your country is bad for morale?

SG-1 as an example, Earth was actively at war with the Goa'uld for a decade and most of the world never found out. The Goa'uld really were trying to invade, and even got TO Earth several times. You would think that this kind of news would put aside petty squabbling and get the world to focus all of its resources to fighting the galactic threat to their existence, but instead of that it just stays a covert (albeit well funded) operation.

It seems that if the aliens are really a big threat, you shouldn't keep it a secret because it gives you more resources to divert to focusing on that threat (don't have to hide your budget, can get popular support behind it). But if they aren't a thread, then there's no real need to hide it in the first place. Most people believe that aliens exist somewhere in the universe anyway, and I really, really don't see why it would create any kind of big social upset.

[Srelex]

Because, to paraphrase Tommy Lee Jones, people are dumb, paranoid, and panicky. Many people around the world think gay people or liberals are out to get them, let alone aliens! There will be at least millions with utterly shattered world-views, many more who may find the notion of there being vastly superior beings out there who could crush us a bit terrifying to say the least. In short, you'll have many people who now know for sure, at least as far as they are concerned, that little grey men could appear in the night and abduct them.

Of course, as I mentioned, this depends on circumstance. If the aliens are angels who have come to share with us the secrets of eternal life, that may not be so bad. Although lots of people will still be paranoid and suspicious.

[adam_grif]

I don't buy that, not at all. People lived under the shadow of nuclear annihilation for 60 years, and the Russians even went as far as encouraging their people to be scared of it (nuclear winter propaganda etc). "Oh my god we could be destroyed at ANY SECOND" is easily an order of magnitude more terrifying than "oh my god we aren't the only life in the universe! And some of it is hostile!" It is no different than knowing that other countries are hostile to yours, or that other people might want to mug and kill you if you go out at night in a dark alley. The fear of destruction from an external hostile force brings people together. Governments certainly like to capitalize on it - look at historical war propaganda. They actively play up how dangerous and evil and mean the other guys are. By your logic, this is something nobody could ever want to do because it would make people "paranoid and panicky". Some people were and are paranoid, and I'm sure there were some people who panicked, but they ultimately have to live with it, and fears like that cannot be maintained indefinitely. People WILL calm down and learn to live with it.

[Srelex]

I don't buy that, not at all. People lived under the shadow of nuclear annihilation for 60 years, and the Russians even went as far as encouraging their people to be scared of it (nuclear winter propaganda etc). "Oh my god we could be destroyed at ANY SECOND" is easily an order of magnitude more terrifying than "oh my god we aren't the only life in the universe! And some of it is hostile!" It is no different than knowing that other countries are hostile to yours, or that other people might want to mug and kill you if you go out at night in a dark alley. The fear of destruction from an external hostile force brings people together. Governments certainly like to capitalize on it - look at historical war propaganda. They actively play up how dangerous and evil and mean the other guys are. By your logic, this is something nobody could ever want to do because it would make people "paranoid and panicky". Some people were and are paranoid, and I'm sure there were some people who panicked, but they ultimately have to live with it, and fears like that cannot be maintained indefinitely. People WILL calm down and learn to live with it.

Difference being that during the Cold War, people could at least be confident that the other side would also get destroyed in nuclear fire. You're not grasping the difference in scale here; people may not be afraid of muggers, other countries, etc as much as aliens because the former is, well, still human. They can at least visualize what the enemy is thinking, and they can be confident that the enemy can be dealt with. And then, there are aliens who can destroy us by shooting us from high orbit. In WW2, people knew that we could still bomb those dastardly Nazis. In the Cold War, people knew that the dirty commies would also get toasted by nukes. When you've got aliens who can just show up and level our cities laughing? Different story altogether. Especially if this is an MIB/X-Files type thing where aliens can just appear in the night and steal you from your homes. You really think that any sane government would want the people to know that Greys could really appear and steal you out of your bedroom and do unspeakable things to you any time they pleased?

Put simply, it is in the best interests of a government to make sure that their citizens focus more on their jobs and lives than fretting about aliens kidnapping them in the night. And before you say something like 'war on terror'...consider that people also were reassured that the nasty jihadists could get bombed away. But what to do about beings that are to us what we are to ants?

[Rossum]

Also consider this:

Any aliens who are powerful enough to move from one solar system to the next have to have some pretty powerful technology on their side. Even if they are really nice and understand human ethics then contact between the two races could result in a sudden influx of all kinds of new technologies and such. Humans have a habit of abusing technology to get their way and the more people who know that "There are aliens who have teleporters that can send people or things anywhere." then the more people will be thinking "How can I use this to sneak drugs across boarders?" or something similar.

Plus, if those aliens do have something game breaking like immortality or the secret to solve all of mans problems then who gets to see it administered? Would the secrets only be allowed for a certain group of people or for everyone (and by everyone I include people like people in third world countries without access to schools or modern medicine) those would involve massive changes in the world and economy which threatens the rules of the various governments and such.

I mean if a bunch of ultra powerful aliens showed up and said "We can solve all of your problems instantly by downloading your minds into immortal robot bodies. Just think the works Slark Norbak Zanatoo over and over and we will contact you telepathically for exact details" Then how many people would just quit their jobs and decide to side with the aliens? Or if the aliens could do that stuff easily but refuse to because "We don't want to completly destroy your culture by making humanoid bodies irrelevant." then how many people would say the aliens are jerks?

At the very least, it would make sense for governements to get professionals to contact the aliens first to decide on how things should go before letting the public know about it.

[adam_grif]

Difference being that during the Cold War, people could at least be confident that the other side would also get destroyed in nuclear fire.

Guaranteeing that the other guy will get killed too doesn't make it the fact that you will die less terrifying. For the rational man you realize that it means the other guy will never attack, but much of the Cold War Propaganda was about convincing the public that the other side was totally willing to employ nuclear war despite it being suicidal. Huge numbers of people genuinely believed that it was going to happen any day now - something that struck me when watching Cosmos was how "well you know, if we're not all dead by next year" Sagan's attitude towards things was.

You're not grasping the difference in scale here; people may not be afraid of muggers, other countries, etc as much as aliens because the former is, well, still human.

Why does this make them "more scary" or make people unable to deal with the idea? Why would they deal with the idea of alien foes any differently than the idea of human foes? They are rational actors utilizing technology. Maybe they look like monsters or are giant bugs or something, but why does this mean that people can't handle the idea that they exist without getting terrified or panicky?

They can at least visualize what the enemy is thinking, and they can be confident that the enemy can be dealt with.

We might want to go to European colonization as an example here of physically distinct enemies you can't communicate well with that have massively superior technology and are bent on crushing you. The natives generally took their existence pretty well, until they started wiping them out that is. Even then they didn't start breaking down and crying, they fought back despite never having a chance.

You really think that any sane government would want the people to know that Greys could really appear and steal you out of your bedroom and do unspeakable things to you any time they pleased?

If that helped get public support behind very expensive efforts to develop technology to counter them, absolutely. Generating public fear of the enemy by exaggerating or playing up their abilities is pretty stock standard. Probably in the form of "Vote Republican: Do You Support The Greys?!"

Put simply, it is in the best interests of a government to make sure that their citizens focus more on their jobs and lives than fretting about aliens kidnapping them in the night. And before you say something like 'war on terror'...consider that people also were reassured that the nasty jihadists could get bombed away. But what to do about beings that are to us what we are to ants?

The government aren't letting their people get scared for no reason, they're doing it to get their support in the efforts to combat them. If they just let the Greys run around abducting people without letting anybody know, they're crippling their own efforts to fight them off. Which is counter-intuitive.

I reject your assumption that a scared population is going to lead to a collapse or is a "negative" thing for the society.

[Jawawithagun]

I mean if a bunch of ultra powerful aliens showed up and said "We can solve all of your problems instantly by downloading your minds into immortal robot bodies. Just think the works Slark Norbak Zanatoo over and over and we will contact you telepathically for exact details" Then how many people would just quit their jobs and decide to side with the aliens?

What's the maintenance plan?

[Srelex]

Guaranteeing that the other guy will get killed too doesn't make it the fact that you will die less terrifying. For the rational man you realize that it means the other guy will never attack, but much of the Cold War Propaganda was about convincing the public that the other side was totally willing to employ nuclear war despite it being suicidal. Huge numbers of people genuinely believed that it was going to happen any day now - something that struck me when watching Cosmos was how "well you know, if we're not all dead by next year" Sagan's attitude towards things was.

But what you forget was that equally huge numbers of people thought you could protect yourself by ducking and covering. And that a shelter in your garden would protect you. You see, with propaganda, there's always a certain degree of reassurance. With aliens...there's really jack shit anyone can do.

Why does this make them "more scary" or make people unable to deal with the idea? Why would they deal with the idea of alien foes any differently than the idea of human foes? They are rational actors utilizing technology. Maybe they look like monsters or are giant bugs or something, but why does this mean that people can't handle the idea that they exist without getting terrified or panicky?

Because really, aliens are more likely to look like giant monsters or bugs--and in a lot of settings, they do. Which is more terrifying: Ivan Ivanov with his finger on the button, who still looks like a regular guy and has a family and all, or Bzzzt the Merciless, the horrific mantis-monster, poised with a battlefleet to enslave Earth?

We might want to go to European colonization as an example here of physically distinct enemies you can't communicate well with that have massively superior technology and are bent on crushing you. The natives generally took their existence pretty well, until they started wiping them out that is. Even then they didn't start breaking down and crying, they fought back despite never having a chance.

Because they were not so stupid that they could not tell that the enemy was human like them. And therefore, they could be hurt or reasoned with. Apples and oranges here.

If that helped get public support behind very expensive efforts to develop technology to counter them, absolutely. Generating public fear of the enemy by exaggerating or playing up their abilities is pretty stock standard. Probably in the form of "Vote Republican: Do You Support The Greys?!"

What? Counter them? How now? This isn't like stirring up fear about terrorism, which at least the public can be reassured about with campaigns in the Middle East and whatnot!

"And we'll show those bastards by...er....uh...building a space fleet of our own! Yes!"

"How long would it take to get there!"

"Six thousand years! Plenty of time to prepare!"

"But...what would stop them from simply stopping it?"

"Good old American spirit, that's what!"

"...screw you."

The government aren't letting their people get scared for no reason, they're doing it to get their support in the efforts to combat them. If they just let the Greys run around abducting people without letting anybody know, they're crippling their own efforts to fight them off. Which is counter-intuitive.

I reject your assumption that a scared population is going to lead to a collapse or is a "negative" thing for the society.

Combat them? How? If we were to try anything overt, they would simply percieve us as a possible threat and destroy us! There is no sense, none at all, in letting the public know that there is an enemy their government cannot effectively deal with! It would be tantamount to informing them that an asteroid would hit next week. What's the point of going to work, when aliens could invade tomorrow with no chance of stopping them? What's the point of raising my kids, when the Greys will have them? Might as well put a gun to my mouth!

[adam_grif]

But what you forget was that equally huge numbers of people thought you could protect yourself by ducking and covering. And that a shelter in your garden would protect you.

Which was total bullshit. So wouldn't bullshit protections from aliens presumably spring up? Tinfoil hats, whatever.

Because really, aliens are more likely to look like giant monsters or bugs--and in a lot of settings, they do. Which is more terrifying: Ivan Ivanov with his finger on the button, who still looks like a regular guy and has a family and all, or Bzzzt the Merciless, the horrific mantis-monster, poised with a battlefleet to enslave Earth?

Are you trying to say that people are more scared of things that look hideous than they are of things that will result in their complete destruction? All the aliens being hideous monsters is going to do is mean they're afraid of being in the same room as them, not that they will experience any more existential dread than when Ivanov is facing them down with the bomb.

Because they were not so stupid that they could not tell that the enemy was human like them. And therefore, they could be hurt or reasoned with. Apples and oranges here.

Well do you have any real world examples to draw from here? That's the closest we can get. You've been theorycrafting that horrifying aliens = people can't handle the truth but you don't have any actual evidence to draw this inference from. "But it's not the same" doesn't mean what you're asserting is true.

What? Counter them? How now?

Well lets see. In SG-1 they were actively seeking allies and technology to help them and had elite commando teams with access to the gate network. By the later seasons they absolutely did have their own space fleet, and by late Atlantis they had the most powerful military force the known universe and were a veritable galactic superpower. But no, we still can't tell the public because... reasons? In MiB Earth is an interstellar neutral zone and has been given some cool toys to help them blow the aliens up.

If they have no realistic chance of fighting off the aliens with public support, how are they supposed to have a realistic chance of fighting them off covertly with less resources and a forced veil of secrecy? What do they gain from this? Are we to just not tell anybody they're coming until they show up and start mass anally probing people to death or whatever?

Whether we can plausibly respond to an alien threat depends solely on the circumstances of the threat. You've rigged the scenario you're discussing as such that there is no hope, but the examples when this trope is employed in fiction is usually anything but.

Combat them? How? If we were to try anything overt, they would simply percieve us as a possible threat and destroy us! There is no sense, none at all, in letting the public know that there is an enemy their government cannot effectively deal with! It would be tantamount to informing them that an asteroid would hit next week. What's the point of going to work, when aliens could invade tomorrow with no chance of stopping them? What's the point of raising my kids, when the Greys will have them? Might as well put a gun to my mouth!

You're right, not letting people know that an asteroid is going to hit next week is so much better than not telling anybody and just letting it strike with nobody making any preparations at all or making an effort to devote all of our resources to a last ditch effort to stop it or save some people.

[Srelex]

Which was total bullshit. So wouldn't bullshit protections from aliens presumably spring up? Tinfoil hats, whatever.

Which would be tantamount to telling people that you can protect yourself from Al-Qaeda bombs by nailing bibles to yourself.

Are you trying to say that people are more scared of things that look hideous than they are of things that will result in their complete destruction? All the aliens being hideous monsters is going to do is mean they're afraid of being in the same room as them, not that they will experience any more existential dread than when Ivanov is facing them down with the bomb.

Things that look hideous and that can result in their complete destruction. At least they know that with Ivanov there is still a human element, one that could be reasoned with. With Bzzt...there's absolutely no negotiation. He will come for our planet, our children, and that's that. Why bother living any more?

Well do you have any real world examples to draw from here? That's the closest we can get. You've been theorycrafting that horrifying aliens = people can't handle the truth but you don't have any actual evidence to draw this inference from. "But it's not the same" doesn't mean what you're asserting is true.

Well, it's not like you have any evidence to the contrary either. I suppose the only way to find out would it be to occur for real, so until then all we have are opinions. And it seems ours clash on this subject.

Well lets see. In SG-1 they were actively seeking allies and technology to help them and had elite commando teams with access to the gate network. By the later seasons they absolutely did have their own space fleet, and by late Atlantis they had the most powerful military force the known universe and were a veritable galactic superpower. But no, we still can't tell the public because... reasons? In MiB Earth is an interstellar neutral zone and has been given some cool toys to help them blow the aliens up.

If they have no realistic chance of fighting off the aliens with public support, how are they supposed to have a realistic chance of fighting them off covertly with less resources and a forced veil of secrecy? What do they gain from this? Are we to just not tell anybody they're coming until they show up and start mass anally probing people to death or whatever?

I don't know much about StarGate, so can't comment there. In MIB, the Earth is apparently under threat by aliens near constantly and many aliens can easily disguise themselves among the human population. Yeah, I wouldn't want my organization overwhelmed by thousands of Joe Schmoes who think their neighbor may be a Grey in disguise because he put up his washing the wrong way around. Nor would McCarthy-style witchhunts be good for society. Furthermore, in MIB, the point is for the aliens to live peacefully and unmolested among our society--paranoia over bugs in disguise would not help that.

Whether we can plausibly respond to an alien threat depends solely on the circumstances of the threat. You've rigged the scenario you're discussing as such that there is no hope, but the examples when this trope is employed in fiction is usually anything but.

Well, no hope is realistically what there would be. In fiction, it can depend greatly.

You're right, not letting people know that an asteroid is going to hit next week is so much better than not telling anybody and just letting it strike with nobody making any preparations at all or making an effort to devote all of our resources to a last ditch effort to stop it or save some people.

If it's a large asteroid, then there is literally no way of stopping it. Admittedly, this may depend on whoever may be in charge, but maybe it's better for people to just live their lives then tear themselves apart in anarchy and panic.

[wautd]

An idea I've seen in several SciFi shows is that the Aliens must keep themselves a secret, lest they send the world that they're on into a panic. But I don't really see why that is. I mean, it doesn't seem all that different from a formerly isolated culture running into Europeans. None of them suffered societal collapse simply from the news that people existed from the outside world. There's a slight difference in that they're genuinely aliens and not just other kinds of human, but I don't see why that would make such a difference to the impact it would have on a society.

If anything, I would imagine it would unite the world against this common treat (assuming the aliens are bad). All our petty differences are pretty insignificant on the cosmic scale.

[Oskuro]

Actually, there's a real life example of an encounter with an "alien" civilization.

Remember that time when humongous technologically advanced ships touched down near a village, and strange looking humanoids, explorers from a distant and wondrous world, wearing outlandish outfits and wielding mysterious weapons came out with strange motivations?

Now think about Galleons, Spaniards and their first touchdown on the Americas. It didn't go well for the native's culture, did it?

The whole concept is what Black Swan theory deals about, as well as the Outside Context problem on Excession(Culture novel). In essence, survival as a society will depend on how we are prepared to deal with these situations. And I think we're not prepared at all, considering how someone getting a blowjob can drastically affect the stock market.

[Mayabird]

We might not be prepared for actually dealing with them, but knowing that they exist (because we got their radio transmission beamed from maybe ten thousand light years away)? That is a completely different thing from them messing with us. Something like picking up the radio transmission where we know that they're there but they can't do anything to us would be a sensation overnight, but it would quickly fade since it doesn't really do anything, and then people would go right back to normal. No rioting or any of that nonsense.

Come on people. We've all grown up with the concept that there could be aliens in outer space with super-advanced technology, even the stupid hicks because they've seen the bad sci-fi movies too. There would have to be way more than just aliens appearing/being discovered for us to go crazy because we've mentally prepped for it a bit. Maybe something like the aliens wiping out all our governments and militaries at once and declaring themselves the rulers of this solar system, but rioting would be rather understandable there.

[Srelex]

We might not be prepared for actually dealing with them, but knowing that they exist (because we got their radio transmission beamed from maybe ten thousand light years away)? That is a completely different thing from them messing with us. Something like picking up the radio transmission where we know that they're there but they can't do anything to us would be a sensation overnight, but it would quickly fade since it doesn't really do anything, and then people would go right back to normal. No rioting or any of that nonsense.

Come on people. We've all grown up with the concept that there could be aliens in outer space with super-advanced technology, even the stupid hicks because they've seen the bad sci-fi movies too. There would have to be way more than just aliens appearing/being discovered for us to go crazy because we've mentally prepped for it a bit. Maybe something like the aliens wiping out all our governments and militaries at once and declaring themselves the rulers of this solar system, but rioting would be rather understandable there.

I think the OP's intention was to discuss this in a scifi context, where aliens are secretly interacting with Earth and whatnot.

[Mayabird]

Yes, but in those sorts of shows/movies/whatever it's supposedly our world, only this is happening under our noses without us knowing about it. Whenever someone pulls out the "people are stupid and will go crazy" line in one of those things, I usually assume that the person saying it might believe it, but it's not actually true.

Of course, then there was that Stargate episode where Carter ended up in the parallel world where they had announced the existence of aliens, and then there was rioting and martial law had to be declared. To that, I respond with: 1) it's a fictional show and shouldn't be used as evidence for something supposedly real life, and 2) let's be honest that the Stargate world is rather weird, since there's no freaking way they could still be keeping that whole thing a secret. What, even the janitors at the facilities where they're building the starships are somehow convinced to keep quiet?

[NecronLord]

Are the Men in Black operating in our best interests everytime they whip out the neuralizer?

I won't discuss stargate, but in this case, probably. It's quite clear in the first film that the Arquellian battlecruiser can wipe out all life on earth, and is preparing to do so. And that there is absolutely nothing that humans can do to stop them if they pull the trigger. And that this is nothing unusual. The social upheaval from having a cuba-missile-crisis-but-actually-will-kill-every-single-person every week would be massive.