Trek Fleet counts

[noncredible]

On one of the previous pages, he said that In Final Frontier, they traveled to the Galactic Barrier. Isn't Final Frontier not canon?

[Agent Sorchus]

As far as I know it is still canon, but that doesn't mean they went to the center of the Galaxy. They say they did, but that is not definitive, especially since there was someone who is messing with peoples minds aboard. It is entirely likely that it is a mass hallucination since what they call the center of the galaxy doesn't look like what we understand it to look like (ie where is the black hole?).

[noncredible]

Just for the sake of argument, they could have been a couple lightyears off, and wouldnt see the black holes . But I agree with the hallucination thing.

Or, you could turn his argument around and say that if they were at the core, and black holes and swirling matter and such werent visible, their sensors are obvious crap, and that Star Wars would win merely because Star Trek wouldnt see them.

Even with TM photon torpedo strength (64 megatons from TNG TM) Galaxy class ship still outguns ISD (since we did not specified ISD is from EU, I go with one from G canon) by considerable margin, althought it might be somehow balanced out by TM GCS having weaker shields than ISD. But TNG TM is not canon, so this speculation is irrelevant.

Bullshit. How could a vessel that can destroy all life on a planet within a few hours (the MINIMUM requirement for a BDZ) be outgunned by a mere 64 megatons (which is still a widely inflated number).
Oh, right, in the mind of a moronic trektard.

Did he just use the TM for numbers and then in the next sentence discard it as non-canon?

[Batman]

Yep. Of course, he's treating the hopelessly overinflated (and never actually stated anyway) 64MT number as lowballing photorp firepower so that actually makes sense from his sorry excuse for a point of view.

[Junghalli]

As far as I know it is still canon, but that doesn't mean they went to the center of the Galaxy. They say they did, but that is not definitive, especially since there was someone who is messing with peoples minds aboard. It is entirely likely that it is a mass hallucination since what they call the center of the galaxy doesn't look like what we understand it to look like (ie where is the black hole?).

Personally I prefer to explain it as a semi-stable wormhole or some phenomenon along those lines. It doesn't seem as transparently desperate as other ideas brought up to dismiss it (like "it was a hallucination" or "they really meant something totally different that was just called the center of the galaxy for some reason"), nicely reconciles it with generally lower speeds, and it explains why it never came up in Voyager (the connection had naturally deteriorated by then).

Or, you could turn his argument around and say that if they were at the core, and black holes and swirling matter and such werent visible, their sensors are obvious crap, and that Star Wars would win merely because Star Trek wouldnt see them.

How does that follow? The only thing we know was that the landmark structures of the galactic core weren't visible to the Mk I eyeball and they didn't choose to put enhanced views of the black hole and whatever up on the viewscreen. That doesn't tell us anything about their sensors. For that matter the planet was in the middle of a giant cloud of glowing gassy stuff; not exactly great conditions for visual astronomy.

[noncredible]

As far as I know it is still canon, but that doesn't mean they went to the center of the Galaxy. They say they did, but that is not definitive, especially since there was someone who is messing with peoples minds aboard. It is entirely likely that it is a mass hallucination since what they call the center of the galaxy doesn't look like what we understand it to look like (ie where is the black hole?).

Personally I prefer to explain it as a semi-stable wormhole or some phenomenon along those lines. It doesn't seem as transparently desperate as other ideas brought up to dismiss it (like "it was a hallucination" or "they really meant something totally different that was just called the center of the galaxy for some reason"), nicely reconciles it with generally lower speeds, and it explains why it never came up in Voyager (the connection had naturally deteriorated by then).

I've never actually seen ST:V. Did they say anything about a spatial anomaly or something? Or did they just appear somewhere else and that special guy told them it was the Galactic Barrier?

Or, you could turn his argument around and say that if they were at the core, and black holes and swirling matter and such weren't visible, their sensors are obvious crap, and that Star Wars would win merely because Star Trek wouldnt see them.

How does that follow? The only thing we know was that the landmark structures of the galactic core weren't visible to the Mk I eyeball and they didn't choose to put enhanced views of the black hole and whatever up on the viewscreen. That doesn't tell us anything about their sensors. For that matter the planet was in the middle of a giant cloud of glowing gassy stuff; not exactly great conditions for visual astronomy.

If they were in a big gassy cloud, then if there were black holes nearby they would see them pretty well, no? So a conclusion is that even if they were near the core, they missed it by a few lightyears. Your wormhole theory still stands, and this even supports it a bit, as the special guy (I still have no idea who this is, but you guys and other say that there was some sort of special guy onboard) wouldn't be able to choose exactly where they go if it was a wormhole.

Looking back at that paragraph, I used pretty confusing sentence structure. The whole part about the wormhole is just speculation, so if you don't get it, just ignore it.

[noncredible]

I love it when people bitch about not seeing black holes.

Isn't there like tons of crap orbiting around the supermassive black holes?

And apparently they were in a gas cloud. If there were any black holes there, they would be pretty obviously visible (or rather, their absence would be visible).

[Junghalli]

I've never actually seen ST:V. Did they say anything about a spatial anomaly or something? Or did they just appear somewhere else and that special guy told them it was the Galactic Barrier?

Just appeared. Author's intent was very obviously that they were going to the center of the galaxy (or someplace close enough to it that it might as well be) and this was nothing particularly special, except that they had to cross a dangerous magic glowy gas barrier at the galaxy's center. If you absolutely must rationalize it some kind of short-cut phenomenon like a wormhole seems like the easiest explanation to me.

If they were in a big gassy cloud, then if there were black holes nearby they would see them pretty well, no?

I dunno, "nearby" in this context could easily mean thousands of light years, since "center of the galaxy" is hardly a precise description.

Seriously, I don't really know exactly what the center of the galaxy would look like; I dimly remember that there's a giant black hole and huge dense star clusters, and I imagine the black hole might have some sort of bright accreation disk. I don't know if it would even necessarily be all that visible except as a bright band of stars or something (really, I have no idea). I really can't say whether there's any actual discrepancy between what we see in ST:V and what we'd expect to see somewhere in the general vicinity of the galactic core, aside from the fact that the real core probably doesn't include a giant super-dangerous wall of magic glowy gas. I suppose I could try to look it up on Google but I really don't feel like it ATM. At any rate the Enteprise had to pass through some really thick glowy shit to get to the planet, it wouldn't exactly be shocking if even pretty bright astronomical phenomenon got washed out. Plus the planet obviously had some sort of sun which would also tend to wash stuff out.

To be perfectly honest I suspect a lot of the nerds who complain about the stuff in ST:V "not looking like the center of the galaxy" have no idea what the center of the galaxy would actually look like either and just envision some cliche Hollywood sucky vortex black hole or just repeat what they've heard from others, but whatever.

So a conclusion is that even if they were near the core, they missed it by a few lightyears.

Well, like I said, that hardly invalidates the term as meaningful. From the perspective of our part of the galaxy you could legitimately call a pretty huge region "the center of the galaxy".

[Junghalli]

And apparently they were in a gas cloud. If there were any black holes there, they would be pretty obviously visible (or rather, their absence would be visible).

Black holes in a gas cloud might be visible because they'd be sucking in gas, which would heat up and become incandescent as it fell in. Hollywood/artistic cliche likes to represent this as a glowy whirlpool vortex, I'm not sure what it'd actually look like. From a distance it might just be a point source of light.

Maybe we did see the central black hole - it's Shaka-Ri's sun?

[noncredible]

Isn't there like tons of crap orbiting around the supermassive black holes?

Yeah... the whole galaxy.

I mean orbiting close, in an accretion disk.

And apparently they were in a gas cloud. If there were any black holes there, they would be pretty obviously visible (or rather, their absence would be visible).

Depends on the distance from it. Stars exist less than a parsec away from it proving that the gravity doesn't tear gas groupings apart.

Well the only thing that I'm trying to prove is that they weren't right smack in the middle of the galaxy, beside the black hole, or even near it. If the correct interpretation of "Galactic Barrier" even is "Galactic Core", then they were just somewhere roughly near the middle. Even Coruscant could be considered near the core.

[Junghalli]

Wasn't the cloud itself glowing too?

The planet had day and night so there was apparently some kind of sun, not just the glow of the cloud (then again notgod seemed to have control over it so maybe it was just an illusion). But yeah, as I remember the Great Barrier was really thick and bright. Sky-seeing conditions looked about as good as a cloudy day on Earth; probably no real surprise we didn't see shit.

I'm gonna do some quick Googling on what actually is in the center of the galaxy and see what turns up.

[noncredible]

By the way, who actually was the special guy? I'll just refer to him as Bob McGod for now.

[noncredible]

Also, speaking of Star Trek and God-like beings, here is a question that is a bity off topic:

I've been reading Star Crossed, and did Kirk actually meet a younger version of Q? Or was it just some guy that happened to slightly resemble Q, so he slightly adjusted it, like he did with "Captain" Jerjerrod.

Fun fact: he was played by the same guy who played Admiral Hanson in Best of Both Worlds. The Borg killed "God"!

For the sake of argument, it only says that his ship was destroyed, so he could have just disappeared, like the Borg Queen apparently did (On second thought, that isn't a very good comparison, because judging by the Borg Queen's answer, it's more likely she has several bodies, each with the same mind, like a collective within a collective)

[Junghalli]

Here's a site that talks about the center of the galaxy:

Within a parsec of the galactic center, the estimated number density of stars is about 10 million stars per cubic parsec. By contrast, the number density of stars in the Sun's neighborhood is a puny 0.2 star per cubic parsec.

Because stars are so closely packed together near the galactic center, the night sky for inhabitants there would be spectacular. Near the galactic center, the average distance between neighboring stars would be only 1000 AU (about a light-week). If the Sun were located within a parsec of the galactic center, there would be a million stars in our sky with apparent brightness greater than Sirius. The total starlight in the night sky would be about 200 times greater than the light of the full moon; you could easily read the newspaper at midnight, relying on starlight alone.
...
Zooming in, radio observations of the central 10 parsecs of our galaxy reveal the presence of a ``mini-spiral'' of hot gas. A radio image of the mini-spiral is shown below:
...
At the center of the mini-spiral is a strong, very compact radio source called Sagittarius A* (pronounced ``A-star''). Sagittarius A* has a radio luminosity equal to 5 times the luminosity of the Sun. High-resolution radio imaging reveals that Sagittarius A* is only 1 AU in radius. What is Sagittarius A*, exactly? Well, we can say what it isn't:

It's not a star.
It's not a pulsar.
It's not a supernova remnant.
The properties of Sagittarius A* are consistent with the hypothesis that Sagittarius A* is an accretion disk around a supermassive black hole.

1 AU is pretty tiny in comparison to interstellar distances, it's the distance between Earth and the sun. If the luminous accreation disk is really that small my guess is you'd have to get pretty close before it became anything but a point light source; stars that are similarly big like Betelgeuse look like points of light to us a few hundred light years away.

So center of the galaxy = very bright starry sky with a bright point source that is the central black hole accreation disk, maybe?

That might actually be fairly consistent with what we saw, if all the thicky glowy shit just washes out all the stars.

[noncredible]

IIRC Stravo was referring to Trelane, from the episode "The Squire of Gothos"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Squire_of_Gothos

Trelane was a powerful child-alien who toyed with Kirk. Some fans believe he was a Q, since they share some powers. Though, Trelane used machinery where Q didn't. (unless Trelane's machine was just another game... been years since I've seen the episode). Kirk finally got out of it when Trelane's parents intervened and told him to be nice to the little humans!

But it is more of a just for fun thing than a serious relationship. TOS didn't call him Q and the TNG Q never mentioned meeting Kirk. They had different actors. They had similar in some ways, but still different characterization, similar but different powers, and so on. It is pretty unlikely, in my opinion, that he was actually Q.

Ok, thanks. I remember seeing that guy in a parody video. On youtube, search "Star Trek meets Monty Python"

EDIT: And I just remembered that this isn't RuneScape Forums and I can post links.

[noncredible]

Ok, I might watch it sometime. And yes, TOS was by far the best one. TNG was second, as it was only half-retarded. The other three are crap. Some episodes are watchable, but compared to TOS, they are crap. Know what would be cool? If they recreated TOS using Star Trek 2009 and the new bridge crew and all. Same plot and everything, except the new bridge crew and maybe a few tweaks to things.

[fallendragon]

ok picard Startrek First Contact has and interesting quote

Lily: "How many planets are in the Federation?"
Picard: "Over one hundred and fifty. Spread across eight thousand light years."

and From the canon novelization of Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, softcover pg. 116: "This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all." Spoken by Grand Moff Tarkin

this seems to indecate a sizealbe differance in scope and that SW can take signifacantly more losses then ST can.

next when the star destoryer blasted the astroid, would seem to me to make the claim of SW being massively outgunned a bit questionable

oh and would someone give me the source for the federation attack craft as i don't remember them and it would be a great comparision with the verious TIE seriers craft

note i am ignoring the problems startrek will have with both the superweapons and super destoryer series of vessles

[Stofsk]

Trelane was a powerful child-alien who toyed with Kirk. Some fans believe he was a Q, since they share some powers. Though, Trelane used machinery where Q didn't. (unless Trelane's machine was just another game... been years since I've seen the episode). Kirk finally got out of it when Trelane's parents intervened and told him to be nice to the little humans!

Kirk destroyed some sort of instrumentation but this only slightly set Trelane back. Trelane said later in the episode 'Did you think that was the only medium of instrumentality at my command?'

It's NONCANNON RAR but Peter David wrote a novel that showed Trelane was a child of the Q continuum. Actually a very good book. We know that Q can have their powers taken away from them, as per 'DejaQ'. The part where it gets tricky is in 'True-Q' where Amanda Rogers parents were Q who had renounced their powers to live as humans, and they had her, but they used their powers one time IIRC and were murdered by the Q Continuum. In any case, there's nothing to suggest the Q use hyper-advanced technology but to link them with Trelane, Trelane only had that one mission which didn't set him back significantly.

But it is more of a just for fun thing than a serious relationship. TOS didn't call him Q and the TNG Q never mentioned meeting Kirk. They had different actors. They had similar in some ways, but still different characterization, similar but different powers, and so on. It is pretty unlikely, in my opinion, that he was actually Q.

The plethora of God-beings makes Star Trek hilarious sometimes.

I still want to know what happened to the Organians.

[Picard]

If it is contradicted by G canon then it is not canon. All of my SW observations are based on G canon (except my analysis of BDZ which gives low gigatons for HTL) so keep EU out of discussion.

So fucking prove it stupid. The calculations obtainable from various ESB asteroids do not disprove the petaton-range firepower of the main guns any more than calcing an M16 would disprove the existence of MLRS.

But we have direct quote from novelization which disproves such firepower.

[Serafina]

If it is contradicted by G canon then it is not canon. All of my SW observations are based on G canon (except my analysis of BDZ which gives low gigatons for HTL) so keep EU out of discussion.

So fucking prove it stupid. The calculations obtainable from various ESB asteroids do not disprove the petaton-range firepower of the main guns any more than calcing an M16 would disprove the existence of MLRS.

But we have direct quote from novelization which disproves such firepower.

Bullshit. Not only does that only provide a LOWER LIMIT, but we also don't know to which weapon it refers.
Again, you cling to an ambiguous line instead of actual observation. Your grasp of the english language is obviously pathetic - and that IS a problem if you need to understand if for your analysis.

[Picard]

Except that it's NOT contradicted by G-canon. You still treat "doesn't appear in g-canon" as "is contradicted by g-canon". But in order to be contradicted by G-canon, it has to APPEAR in G-canon.
We never see the firepower of heavy or even medium turbolasers in G-canon. We see the firepower of light turbolasers, but that's like seeing a tanks machine gun and claiming that it is it's strongest weapon. Or taking a battleships point-defense gun (anti-aircraft gun) and ignoring the fucking main guns.

We have direct quote from one of novelizations on power of HTL bolts. Which means (along with observed power of X-wing, AT-AT and snowspeeder guns) that TESB asteroid-vaporizing guns were medium ones.

If there is a storage area, it's likely to contain some crew accommodation facilities. Given that we know ST-travel times, they are actually a requirement for any interstellar travel.

As I said, we never see what is behind pilot. Maybe storage, maybe beds, maybe replicators, who knows?

Moron. Not only did the Death Star 2 NOT have that weakness, but ST-torpedoes are significantly larger than SW-proton torpedoes, and have never been observed to make such a sharp right-angle turn. They wouldn't even get into that shaft.

1) DS2 was blowed by Millenium Falcon flying inside it and blowing it up. We don't know if it has that flaw when finished, but if it has... it's cooked.
2) Ever heard about micro-photon torpedoes? These are torpedoes used by Attack Fighters, and I doubt that diameter is more than 50 cm (maybe even less than 25 cm), making it small enough to flow throught reactor vent of DSI.

Besides, you are ignoring Super Star Destroyers - some of which have been outfitted with superlasers capable of obliterating continents (actually splitting the continental crust). A single one of those could hyper in, blow up whatever it wants, and hyper out again, and you can do nothing against it.

And if there were such SSD's, why none were present at Endor?

"Mere news of Federation make it collapse" Do we need any more proof that this guy is a moronic, clueless wanker?

Face it: Empire is tyrant dictatorship, and most of its population was not happy with it. So what you think will happen when population hears about - by their standards - Utopian society? Mere prospect of creating such society can cause large-scale revolutions if current society is bad enough (1917. revolution in Russia) and Empire is pretty much on verge of collapse.

As far as "capturing hyperdrive" goes: You can't just assume that they will magically figure out technology utterly alien to them in such little time.

Depending on how alien it is. And they have time.

Just follow these simple steps: Build another Death Star II and some Eclipse-class SSDs. Don't build any more ISDs or similar ships than you already have. Send the Death Star and Eclipses into Federation territory. Demand surrender, or you will blow up unprotected outposts every 6 hours. Since you are way faster than Federation-ships, they simply can't intercept you, and you will only meet a couple of defending ships - at best. Jump around and kill their defenseless people until they surrender.

I don't care about Eclipses (if there were some, why we never see them in G-canon) but you're probably right about Death Stars. As I said, hyperdrive is only true advantage Empire has, and if Federation somehow acquires it (say, from Rebels), it will be negated. But that is "what if", so...

Bullshit. Not only does that only provide a LOWER LIMIT, but we also don't know to which weapon it refers.
Again, you cling to an ambiguous line instead of actual observation. Your grasp of the english language is obviously pathetic - and that IS a problem if you need to understand if for your analysis.

I think it is clear that it refers to HTL. If there were continent-killing shots flying around, why would small-city-killing shots be something special? Only YOU don't want to understand that, beacouse it would discard ICS numbers.

[Serafina]

We have direct quote from one of novelizations on power of HTL bolts. Which means (along with observed power of X-wing, AT-AT and snowspeeder guns) that TESB asteroid-vaporizing guns were medium ones.

We have a lower limit for turbolaser bolts. It doesn't say that it's an upper limit or heavy turbolaser bolt.
You also ignore the actual energy required for vaporizing such a town, rather than just destroying it. No nuclear weapon ever made on earth would be capable of such a feat.

1) DS2 was blowed by Millenium Falcon flying inside it and blowing it up. We don't know if it has that flaw when finished, but if it has... it's cooked.

Moron. The damn thing wasn't even finished. If it had been finished, then it would have been impossible to fly in there. The Empire has no reason to send an unfinished Death Star into Federation territory.
Not to mention that the Federation wouldn't know about the weakness of the first Death Star anyway.

And if there were such SSD's, why none were present at Endor?

There WAS a Super-Star Destroyer at Endor. SSDs with Superlasers were only built a few years later - but by the same token, i could restrict ST-technology to early-TNG levels and ignore everything built later on.
If we are talking abut "Galactic Empire" vs "United Federation of Planets", the GE is clearly capable of building and fielding such ships. But just as i predicted, you tried to handwave that away.

Face it: Empire is tyrant dictatorship, and most of its population was not happy with it. So what you think will happen when population hears about - by their standards - Utopian society? Mere prospect of creating such society can cause large-scale revolutions if current society is bad enough (1917. revolution in Russia) and Empire is pretty much on verge of collapse.

You are a moron. Why didn't everyone in Nazi Germany defect to the USA? Why don't the North Koreans flee to South Korea?
Ever heard of Propaganda - or just plain limiting information.
Aside from that, the Federation is likely a communist dictatorship with lot's of bland white paint on top.

Depending on how alien it is. And they have time.

They don't have time. They will loose their research facilities within a few weeks, and all their populated planets within months (at most). It's utterly impossible that they can capture, research and produce an utterly alien piece of technology within that timeframe.

I don't care about Eclipses (if there were some, why we never see them in G-canon) but you're probably right about Death Stars. As I said, hyperdrive is only true advantage Empire has, and if Federation somehow acquires it (say, from Rebels), it will be negated. But that is "what if", so...

It's NOT the only advantage the Empire has. They have Death Stars, Super Star Destroyers, much larger industrial capacity and an actual military instead of a few guys in jumpsuits.
They don't need the Eclipses anyway. We just need to stick to a single movie to utterly annihilate the Federation (ANH). The rest just makes it worse.



You have done nothing to refute your utter defeat. The Empire simply needs to build a Death Star - even the DS I would be enough, given that the Federation doesn't know it's weak spot. The DS II is utterly unassailable for the Federation. It can simply jump from planet to planet, from base to base, and blow them up while the Federation can do nothing but sit idly by while they get slaughtered piece by piece.
It's a simple combination: Speed + planet-destroying firepower vs. low speed and therefore incapability to retaliate.
That way, the Empire can crush the Federation with ease.

[Serafina]

God damn it, AGAIN, that is the exact language used to describe Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and a great many nuclear tests in several publications.

Turns out writers rarely mean literal vaporization in the scientific sense. Who knew?

If they don't write in a scientific sense, then you can't interprete it in a scientific sense either. Either way, taking a single ambiguous line to throw out a majority of evidence (AotC, ICS II, TESB, BDZ and more) is uttlery stupid.

[Junghalli]

Lily: "How many planets are in the Federation?"
Picard: "Over one hundred and fifty. Spread across eight thousand light years."

Isn't there a contradicting quote from TOS stating nearly a thousand planets or something? Maybe the 150 is just major worlds or something.

150 planets total over 8000 light years is pretty thin, isn't Vulcan supposed to be around 40 Eridani (16 light years away) or is that strictly fanon?

Not that it really makes all that much difference vs Star Wars, which either way still wins any all-out conflict handily by virtue of a vastly greater resource base and FTL speed if nothing else.

[fallendragon]

Lily: "How many planets are in the Federation?"
Picard: "Over one hundred and fifty. Spread across eight thousand light years."

Isn't there a contradicting quote from TOS stating nearly a thousand planets or something? Maybe the 150 is just major worlds or something.

150 planets total over 8000 light years is pretty thin, isn't Vulcan supposed to be around 40 Eridani (16 light years away) or is that strictly fanon?

Not that it really makes all that much difference vs Star Wars, which either way still wins any all-out conflict handily by virtue of a vastly greater resource base and FTL speed if nothing else.

oh yes i am assuming that those are both just the major worlds of each side... but it still is something for the trekers to keep in mind.