French President confronts mob, Wins.

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Rabid
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Rabid »

Thanas wrote:[...] have you got any statistics about the economy of France in relation to other EU countries per capita?
Unfortunately no. Not under my hands right now. But I guess an "easy" if tiring approach would be to go and prospect the various data of the europeans nations ministries of finance, calculate from that the global corporate income of each country, and divide it by the number of declared working people. After that, if you want to obtain the productivity per hour worked, a simple "rule of three" could do the trick.
Just a work hypothesis, though...


And just to continue on a pet subject of mine, hope it don't derail out of topic :

Right now, here, the pension are only funded by the contribution of the working people, and nothing else. If you took a little percentage, say 0.3-0.5%, on each transaction in the Stock Exchange (CAC 40), you'd probably end up with at least some more billions (probably tens of billions) you could use to throw some money at the ever-screamings pleb.
But, eh!, that's just me being an awful communist there, mind you. There are other creative way to take money from those who have too many in order to give it to those who have not enough. It just take a little imagination.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

HarrionGreyjoy wrote:Only a little side issue here, but for the benefit of anyone like me who double-took when they saw that there was a legislative procedure in the French Parliament called the guillotine : it's buried a couple pages deep in google, but is apparently just a hilariously named way to put a limit on the time you can debate a bill.
Is that its official name? Or one used colloquially and perhaps pejoratively? The same term has been used here in Canada in this way usually by the opposition parties when Curtailment of Debate has been invoked. But it's more commonly just called "closure", so I'm wondering if the use of "guillotine" is any different in France.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Rabid »

General Trelane (Retired) wrote:
HarrionGreyjoy wrote:Only a little side issue here, but for the benefit of anyone like me who double-took when they saw that there was a legislative procedure in the French Parliament called the guillotine : it's buried a couple pages deep in google, but is apparently just a hilariously named way to put a limit on the time you can debate a bill.
Is that its official name? Or one used colloquially and perhaps pejoratively? The same term has been used here in Canada in this way usually by the opposition parties when Curtailment of Debate has been invoked. But it's more commonly just called "closure", so I'm wondering if the use of "guillotine" is any different in France.
Well, not 100% sure about it, but it seems to me that it's not the official name of the procedure.

What happened is :

In order to gain time, the opposition has waged an amendment war - you know the drill : drown the text you fight with thousands of little amendment, each one having to be discussed before being voted.
The Minister of Finance asked the president of the National Assembly (or was it the Senate ? Don't remenber...) for a unique vote to take place on the text.
Effectively, the Governement bypassed the normal procedure, in one of these move that is, by the letter, legal, but wich is by western democratic standard, dictatorial.
And in a sens, we should be grateful that they didn't apply the article 49 alinea 3 of the constitution on this topic :
French Constitution of 1958 (5th Republic), present redaction, article 49, alinea 3 wrote:Le Premier ministre peut, après délibération du Conseil des ministres, engager la responsabilité du Gouvernement devant l'Assemblée nationale sur le vote d'un projet de loi de finances ou de financement de la sécurité sociale. Dans ce cas, ce projet est considéré comme adopté, sauf si une motion de censure, déposée dans les vingt-quatre heures qui suivent, est votée dans les conditions prévues à l'alinéa précédent. Le Premier ministre peut, en outre, recourir à cette procédure pour un autre projet ou une proposition de loi par session.
Traduction :
The Prime Minister can engage the responsability of the governement on a text. If he do that, the text pass except if the opposition file a motion of censure against the governement and the motion pass, in wich case the governement fall.
I don't know if it's only the governement or if the President go down with it... I think it's just the governement.

Behold ! French Democracy !
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Phantasee »

I find it highly amusing that Americans talk the talk but it's the French who walk the walk, when it comes to all that talk of fighting the evil government.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Elfdart »

Rabid wrote:And just to continue on a pet subject of mine, hope it don't derail out of topic :

Right now, here, the pension are only funded by the contribution of the working people, and nothing else. If you took a little percentage, say 0.3-0.5%, on each transaction in the Stock Exchange (CAC 40), you'd probably end up with at least some more billions (probably tens of billions) you could use to throw some money at the ever-screamings pleb.
But, eh!, that's just me being an awful communist there, mind you. There are other creative way to take money from those who have too many in order to give it to those who have not enough. It just take a little imagination.
I was thinking the same thing over a year ago when right-wingers whined that Medicare for all would cost too much: a flat $1 fee on every stock transaction in the US, of which there were 300 billion in 2008 alone. Governments would split the fee for international transactions. If you want to raise money that's the least noticeable way to do it.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Samuel »

That is a bad idea. It would help companies that have high stock prices and hurt those that have low ones, even if the price is just because of the number of times stock has been split.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Drone »

Samuel wrote:That is a bad idea. It would help companies that have high stock prices and hurt those that have low ones, even if the price is just because of the number of times stock has been split.
How so? If it's a tax on all transactions, regardless of the number of stocks purchased, cost, etc. why would it have any effect on stocks with low prices more so than the stocks with high prices? It MAY slow down trading in general due to increased cost for buying and selling every couple minutes like some of the higher volume traders have done, unless you're saying because it'd be a higher percentage of a low priced stock's price, but then you just wait a little while and buy in higher volume to offset that don't you?
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by TimothyC »

Drone wrote:
Samuel wrote:That is a bad idea. It would help companies that have high stock prices and hurt those that have low ones, even if the price is just because of the number of times stock has been split.
How so? If it's a tax on all transactions, regardless of the number of stocks purchased, cost, etc. why would it have any effect on stocks with low prices more so than the stocks with high prices? It MAY slow down trading in general due to increased cost for buying and selling every couple minutes like some of the higher volume traders have done, unless you're saying because it'd be a higher percentage of a low priced stock's price, but then you just wait a little while and buy in higher volume to offset that don't you?
Because it increases the total costs of a transaction. If I buy 100 shares of XYZ at 1.00 a share, if Elfdart's system was in place I'd have to pay a total of 101, for an effective cost of 1.01 per share. When I go to sell the stock, I now have to get a price of 1.02 per share (because I have to pay the tax when I buy the stock and when I sell it). This slows down the market, and *might* reduce the liquidity in it.

If I did the same with a stock that cost 10.00 a share it, the effective cost increase of a set of transactions (one purchase and one sell) would only be .2%, instead of the 2% for a stock that was only 1.00.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Phantasee »

The low percentage would work out better than the $1 fee. That $1 is a much larger percentage of a transaction involving a penny stock than a transaction involving a stock at $100. Or hell, Berkshire Hathaway is trading at $125210 right now. It's almost nothing for even a transaction involving one share.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Rabid »

This is out of topic, but a percentage would be simpler to apply and would ensure that no one 'play' with the rule against the spirit of the law.

Weird monetary numbers ? (eg : € 0,27648). Meh, we can deal with it. After all, money today is just bits of information going from one computer to another one around the world. And it's not as if we weren't already dealing with it on a million of times per second basis.


EDIT : And TimothyC summarized the problem.

EDIT 2 : And Phantasee too.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

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Der Spiegel's article, explains further what Rabid wrote.
Der Spiegel wrote: 10/26/2010 11:12 AM
Sarkozy's Perfect Storm
French Fury Goes Beyond Pensions

A Commentary by Ullrich Fichtner

The French are not just protesting to stop the retirement age from being raised. They are also fighting to save their country from government sleaze and the dismantling of democracy.

During his adventurous journeys across oceans and through faraway lands, Obelix, the loyal friend of Asterix in the famous French comic book series of that name, is often surprised by local customs and traditions. Whenever he encounters something unfamiliar, the fat Gaul in the blue-and-white striped pants taps his red hair and mumbles: "These Romans are crazy," or makes similar remarks about whichever nationality he happens to have encountered.

These days, as the French take to the barricades once again to protest a pension reform that appears to be necessary, one might be tempted to turn Obelix's remarks around, and ask: Are these Gauls crazy? Have the French lost their minds?

Last week, garbage collectors went on strike in Marseille, while shouting high-school students marched through the streets of Nanterre. Buses and trains remained idle in Calais, Dijon, Toulouse and Nice, where public transportation was almost shut down for entire days at a time. In 24 university cities, including Rennes, Caen, Montpellier and Grenoble, students marched out of lecture halls and became a jubilant threat to public safety on downtown streets. There was no mail delivery in Poitiers and there were no newspapers in Paris.

Because protesters had blocked access to refineries and fuel depots, more than 3,000 filling stations around the country ran out of gas. Traffic at the airports in Paris and other cities was seriously disrupted, many long-distance trains were cancelled throughout the country and truck drivers provoked traffic jams on major highways. The corresponding images, including those of small fires set by rioters, quickly circled the globe.

Those who have paid only fleeting attention to the events in France and have relied on little more than brief, hectic news reports must conclude that the French, in defiance of all reason, are fighting ferociously to keep their retirement age at 60, and not change it to 62, as the government wants to do. If this were true, one would indeed be forced to conclude that the French are mad, and France itself would have to be written off as a serious partner in Europe until further notice. But fortunately the truth looks a little different.

Yes, the French are protesting against a flawed, unfair and poorly executed pension reform, and they are angry about more than what is being touted as a number of ridiculously minor changes. At the same time, however, the resistance against this concrete reform project by a very broad, only loosely cohesive protest movement offers a welcome excuse for the French to finally vent their long-simmering frustrations with their general situation. In fact, France is currently witnessing a veritable popular uprising against a government which has been shaken by scandals and which is already over the hill after only half of its term in office. The real target of the protesters' anger is Nicolas Sarkozy, the most unpopular French president of the last 30 years.

The Widespread Deterioration of a Once-Proud Republic

The parade of minor and major mistakes and scandals of the past summer provides an indication of where all this anger in the country is coming from, and of the extent of French citizens' disenchantment with their politicians today. During the football World Cup in South Africa, the outspoken secretary of state for sports, Rama Yade, criticized the French Football Federation for choosing an excessively luxurious hotel for its national team, before it was revealed that Yade herself would be staying at one of the most expensive luxury hotels in South Africa during her visit.

Soon afterwards, it became known that Christian Blanc, secretary of state for the Greater Paris region, had spent €12,000 of his budget on Cuban cigars within 10 months -- and Blanc didn't even understand what all the fuss was about. Other administration officials, including Industry Minister Christian Estrosi, allowed family members to use their official residences, paid for with taxpayer money, for private purposes. Did they feel guilty? Not at all. Did anyone apologize? What on earth for?

It's little short of a miracle that Labor Minister Eric Woerth, the man behind the highly controversial pension reform, still has his job and isn't in prison awaiting trial instead. In his previous job as budget minister, Woerth saw no conflict of interest in the fact that his wife worked for the holding company that managed the fortune of the wealthy L'Oréal heiress Liliane Bettencourt, and to this day Woerth still hasn't been able to rebut the accusation that he deliberately steered his wife into the job. Woerth, in his capacity as treasurer of the ruling party, the Union for a Popular Movement (UMP), is also accused of having accepted illegal political contributions, in the form of cash-filled envelopes, from the very same Madame Bettencourt. Woerth denies everything.

The worst of it is that in France today, it is unlikely that such offenses will be investigated or that the alleged culprits will face punishment. In the Sarkozy era, judges and prosecutors are carefully weighing which cases they are willing to take on, and the parliament has also become a blunt weapon. Under Sarkozy, the French have witnessed the widespread deterioration of a once-proud republic and its values. In the years before the "omni-president," it would have been unthinkable for a French leader to give an inflammatory speech on national "insecurity," as Sarkozy did this summer. It would also have been inconceivable for an earlier administration to pursue a policy of expulsion like Sarkozy's treatment of the Roma.

The list of failings of the Sarkozy government is long, and their political consequences become more palpable with each new opinion poll. In a reliable new poll conducted last week, only 6 percent of respondents said that Sarkozy was doing a "very good" job, while 69 percent said that they considered Sarkozy to be a "bad" or "very bad" president. In other polls, some two-thirds of respondents have said that they approve of the strikes and protests against the pension reform. But in the end Sarkozy is even to blame for that.

A Declaration of War against the Unions
The word has spread in France that the contributory pension system can only remain viable if it is modified to conform to demographic and financial necessities. The current situation is, roughly speaking, comparable to the situation in Germany before the changes of recent years. The legal retirement age is 65 (and is expected to increase to 67), and the contribution period is 40.5 years (and is expected to increase to 41.5 years). The fact that the numbers 60 and 62 are constantly appearing in news reports is the result of confusing terminology, cultural differences and an attempt to stultify the positions of the unions and the Socialists.

In fact, 60 is merely the earliest possible retirement age for workers who have been paying into the system for at least 40 years. Anyone who retires at 60 in France without having completed the full contribution period must accept substantial reductions in benefits. The only problem is that Sarkozy clearly has no interest in initiating a socially accepted reform that has the support of the unions. In fact, such a reform has hardly been discussed at all. Basically, the outcome was announced before the beginning of any debate on the issue. The bill was endorsed by Sarkozy's cabinet at a meeting on July 13, in the middle of the country's summer vacation. Since then, its key points have been portrayed as non-negotiable.

In other words, the government -- and in recent months Sarkozy alone is ultimately France's government -- never sought the possibility of a sustainable, widely accepted solution. Instead, it used pension reform as a declaration of war against the unions, the Socialists and other adversaries. The intended message, from the very beginning, was that the administration was unwilling to collaborate with these elements, and that it was not going to allow anyone to water down its plans. There was certainly also a hope that the left would become radicalized again, which would deprive it of some of its appeal in the coming elections.

The outcome is now one-sided and warped. Workers, particularly civil servants, are taking on virtually the entire burden of the reform, while employers emerge largely unscathed. Worst yet, workers with extremely long contribution periods are penalized, women are put at a disadvantage and hardship cases are not sufficiently taken into account. It is, in a nutshell, a socially unjust reform. The manner in which it was (not) negotiated is, in a political sense, perhaps the greatest scandal of all, while the current turmoil is the logical consequence.

It was former President François Mitterrand who once noted that the exercise of the office of president in France amounted to a "permanent coup." Sarkozy is taking Mitterand's words at face value, as he tenaciously expands his power. His team of ministers has long been little more than an arm of the Elysee Palace, while Sarkozy's majority group in the French parliament has deteriorated into a club of presidential yes-men. Edwy Plenel, the head of a news website called Mediapart, now refers to Sarkozy as a "Caesar-like hyper-president," a man who gets his way "at any price, as fast as possible and, if necessary, by force."

Fears of a Misguided Transformation of French Democracy

The current strike and protest movement began on Sept. 7. Since then, millions have taken to the streets on a series of national action days, and by no means all the protestors were organized by unions, opposition parties and other organizations. Some of the people who are now getting involved have never taken part in protest marches before. They are the freshly politicized and unorganized who fear a misguided transformation of French democracy and are deeply suspicious of the supposed common sense that the French government prefers to invoke in place of the constitution today.

The opposition movement, the overwhelming majority of which is peaceful, is now being regularly joined by representatives of the disoriented youth of the low-income suburbs -- the same people that Sarkozy, when he was interior minister, referred to as "scum," and who Sarkozy, as president, has treated as scum. Now it seems that everything he had promised them, in the form of his so-called "Marshall Plan for the suburbs," has dissolved into lies and vanished into thin air. Now, not surprisingly, they are seeking the tumult of the street -- to set cars on fire, loot shops and smash windows. And it wouldn't be surprising if scenes like those that unfolded during the 2005 riots were repeated in the near future.

Nowadays, the uncomfortable truth in France is that everyone is constantly anticipating new eruptions, and that Sarkozy can never find a conciliatory word. He never even attempts to bring calm to the situation -- instead, he constantly manages to escalate things even more. And each new outbreak of violence is subsequently used as ammunition against the protesters.

Since the Roma expulsions began, Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux has behaved as if he were experiencing the most pleasant weeks of his life. Commenting on riots in Lyon last week, he said: "France does not belong to hooligans, to pillagers and hoodlums," although it wasn't quite clear whether he was also referring to the peaceful protesters as well. And Prime Minister François Fillon said, in reference to the ongoing strikes: "No one has the right to take a country hostage."

That may well be true. The only question is: In France today, who exactly is the hostage and who is the hostage-taker?

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan

URL:

* http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 50,00.html

© SPIEGEL ONLINE 2010
All Rights Reserved
Reproduction only allowed with the permission of SPIEGELnet GmbH
It's rather sad state of the affairs you have there Rabid. Sarkozy and co's corruption scandals and rulings to screw the people wouldn't stand out too much here in Hungary.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Tanasinn »

Really, the only problem I have with the property damage is that it seems to be indiscriminate. But that's some guy on the other side of an ocean talking, and there's propaganda galore as usual depicting the French as temper-tantruming children.

I say good on the protesters.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Rabid »

Yes, that's where we are now... The Governement Sarkozy's hoping that the movement will rot away as people will continue to lose their money into these days of strike. He is a paranoid cynical pathological liar whose only interest was to show that he was able to seize all the power he could get. He's a dictator prototype in form and flavor. He's master political chess player...

... But he hasn't won yet, and it will only take us Will to burry him in its own feces. And after each time he will shit on us, it will only makes our Will grow harder.

Ooooh yes, he will feel our People's Will, that is certain. :twisted:

That will be the occasion to install the 6th version of the Republic. The 5th is beginning to date and was too highly patched...

Sarkozy and co's corruption scandals and rulings to screw the people wouldn't stand out too much here in Hungary.
I'm sorry to hear that. It must be pretty bad at that point...
... Isn't it Hungary wich is facing increasing concern over the rise of nationalist fascists ?
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Companion Cube »

I read this on Counterpunch earlier today; it hits on many of the points raised within the last page, like the idea of a tax on transactions.
Why French Protestors Have It Right

By MARK WEISBROT

The demonstrations that have rocked France this past week highlight some of its differences from the United States. This photo, for example, shows the difference between rioting in baseball-playing versus soccer-playing countries. In the U.S., we would pick up the tear gas canister and THROW it – rather than kick it -- back at the police.

More importantly the French have decided to take to the streets in the millions to defend hard-won retirement gains – including large-scale strikes and work stoppages. French populist rage is being directed in a positive direction, unlike in the United States where it is most prominently being mobilized to elect political candidates who will do their best to increase the suffering of working and middle-class citizens. (It must be emphasized, since the media sometimes forgets to make the distinction, that only a tiny percentage of France’s demonstrators have engaged in any kind of property damage and even fewer in violence, with all but these few protesting peacefully.)

I have to admit it was perplexing to watch the French elect President Nicolas Sarkozy in 2007, a man who campaigned on the idea that France had to make its economy more “efficient” like America’s. In reality, he couldn’t have picked a worse time to peddle this mumbo-jumbo. The housing bubble was already bursting in the United States and would soon cause not only our own Great Recession but also drag most of the world economy into the swamp with it. So much for that particular model of economic dynamism.

But Sarkozy had a lot of help from the major media, which was quite enchanted with the American model at the time and helped promote a number of myths that formed part of his campaign. Among these were the idea that French social protections and employment benefits were “unaffordable in a global economy,” and that employers would hire more people if it were easier to fire them, and if taxes were cut for the rich.

Sarkozy has recently abandoned one of his most politically unpopular tax cuts for the rich, but there may be others. But he had also promised not to raise the retirement age for the public pension system. This has contributed to the mass outrage at his current proposal to raise it from 60 to 62, for those taking the reduced benefits, and from 65 to 67, for full benefits. (In the United States Social Security system, most people opt for the reduced benefit that is available beginning at age 62; full benefits are available, for those born after 1959, at 67.)

Once again most of the media thinks the French are being unrealistic, and should just get with the program like everyone else. The argument is that life expectancy is increasing, so “we all” have to work longer. However this is a bit like reporting half of a baseball score (or soccer if you prefer). On the other side is the fact that productivity and GDP also increase over time, and so it is indeed possible for the French to choose to spend more years in retirement, and pay for it.

France’s retirement age was last set in 1983. Since then, GDP per person has increased by 45 percent. The increase in life expectancy is very small by comparison. The number of workers per retiree declined from 4.4 in 1983 to 3.5 in 2010. But the growth of national income was vastly more than enough to compensate for the demographic changes, including the change in life expectancy. The situation is similar going forward: the growth in national income over the next 30 or 40 years will be much more than sufficient to pay for the increases in pension costs due to demographic changes, while still allowing future generations to enjoy much higher living standards than people today. It is simply a social choice as to how many years people want to live in retirement and how they want to pay for it.

If the French want to keep the retirement age as is, there are plenty of ways to finance future pension costs without necessarily raising the retirement age. One of them, which has support among the French left – and which Sarkozy claims to support at the international level -- would be a tax on financial transactions. Such a “speculation tax” could raise billions of dollars of revenue – as it currently does in the U.K. – while simultaneously discouraging speculative trading in financial assets and derivatives. The French unions and protesters are demanding that the government consider some of these more progressive alternatives.

It is therefore perfectly reasonable to expect that as life expectancy increases, workers should be able to spend more of the lives in retirement. And that is what most French citizens expect. They may not have seen all of the arithmetic but they can see intuitively that as a country grows richer year after year, they should not have to spend more of their lives working. An increase in the retirement age is a highly regressive cut that will hit working people hardest. Poorer workers have shorter life expectancies and would lose a higher proportion of their retirement years. Workers who have to retire early because of unemployment or other hardships will take a benefit cut as a result of this change. And of course this cut would not matter to the richest people who do not rely on the public pension system for most of their retirement income.

France has a lower level of inequality than most of the OECD countries and is one of only 5 – out of 30 OECD countries -- that saw inequality decrease from the mid-80s to the mid-2000s. It also had the largest decrease in inequality in the group, although all of it was from the mid-eighties to the mid-nineties. The country has until now resisted at least some of the changes that have rolled the clock back for working and especially low-income citizens in the high-income countries. The European authorities (including the European Commission, European Central Bank, and International Monetary Fund) are currently accelerating these regressive changes in the weaker Eurozone economies (e.g. Greece, Spain, and Ireland). All of these institutions and many politicians are trying to use the current economic problems of Europe as a pretext to enact right-wing reforms.

Polls show more than 70 percent support for France’s strikers despite the inconvenience of fuel shortages and other disruptions. The French are already sick of right-wing government, and that is also part of what is generating the protests. France has a stronger left in than many other countries, and one that has the ability and willingness to organize mass protest, work stoppages, and educational efforts. They are fighting for the future of Europe, and it is a good example for others. Hopefully, here in the United States, we will be able to beat back any proposed benefit cuts to our much less generous Social Security system, that are looming on the horizon.

Mark Weisbrot is an economist and co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research. He is co-author, with Dean Baker, of Social Security: the Phony Crisis.

This article was originally published by The Guardian.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Samuel »

Among these were the idea that French social protections and employment benefits were “unaffordable in a global economy,”
The article is right to mock this- if you can't compete in the global economy, no one will trade with you because your currency is worthless- you need items foreigners are willing to buy or else they will simply be gifting you free stuff when you import. Worker protection and environmental laws shift what fields people are employed in in the country, they don't make it so people are permanently unemployed.
and that employers would hire more people if it were easier to fire them, and if taxes were cut for the rich.
I believe the first is true and the second is variable, but the magnitude for both depends on local conditions. Anyone have some knowledge of French tax and employment law?
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by folti78 »

Rabid wrote:
Sarkozy and co's corruption scandals and rulings to screw the people wouldn't stand out too much here in Hungary.
I'm sorry to hear that. It must be pretty bad at that point...
... Isn't it Hungary wich is facing increasing concern over the rise of nationalist fascists ?
Nope, that scare is sooo 2007-2008 ... Brought to you mostly by the then government propaganda, which labeled everybody righter than FIDESZ as a neonazi. Their rise pretty much stopped when the previous government has been voted out of office and the current one is closer to them ideologically (and always fought to discredit and marginalize them). They gained some seats in the parliament (12.18%), but it's only enough to make themselves look stupid but not enough to oppose the ruling "coalition"'s (FIDESZ-KDNP, but it's pretty much the PM's rubber stamping club) 68% majority. Who are hell bent to totally reshape the country to their ownleader's image, using their supermajority to pass laws and draft a new constitution, without minimal outside control or consultation.

Not that the country doesn't need a good shake up after 20 years of constant patching a hastly regime change.
Interesting times ...
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Rabid »

That whole affair somehow remind me of a fic's backstory of mine...

In this story, after a nasty case of TER'RISM !!1! -> anti-terror law -> beginning of a new fascist regime, pretty much every peoples of the EU country's overthrow their government in the 2012-2014 years. What come next is... interesting.
Spoiler
=> The peoples unite into an European Federation wich looks like an USSR v2.0, and in the 2016-2017 they annex the Balkans after being pissed of by another ethnic cleansing, integrate every European countrys save Switzerland, and Ukraine and Moldavia (these two being 'offered' to Russia) ; the Turks joining the Federation after Iran barked at them (two month later, Israel nuke Tehran, and is nuked back with Pakistany weapons lended to the Islamic Front [complex story]). The rest of the world either look in awe, is pant-shiting scarred, or want to join the game : By the time it recover from the uprising, the EF as become the world's first economy, and is beginning an ambitious space program ; And the US have imploded after some guy reached the White House in 2012 and tried to change the Constitution [A teabagger-inspired Republican, maybe ? :lol: ], leaving the European Federation as the only remaining Superpower.
The story itself is meant to be set in the 2100's, but that's something else.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Thanas »

Rabid, this is not a place to plug your fiction, so to speak.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Counterpunch wrote:If the French want to keep the retirement age as is, there are plenty of ways to finance future pension costs without necessarily raising the retirement age. One of them, which has support among the French left – and which Sarkozy claims to support at the international level -- would be a tax on financial transactions. Such a “speculation tax” could raise billions of dollars of revenue – as it currently does in the U.K. – while simultaneously discouraging speculative trading in financial assets and derivatives. The French unions and protesters are demanding that the government consider some of these more progressive alternatives.
This only works if everybody collaborates on it at the international level. Otherwise, any French attempt to do this will simply cause whatever financial sector they have to do its trading across the English channel.

Besides, you don't think that Sarkozy and the French Parliament (which approved the reform program) probably considered this option? It's not like he and they were exactly leaping at the chance to piss off much of the French populace before the economic crisis came along.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Rabid »

Guardsman Bass wrote:This only works if everybody collaborates on it at the international level. Otherwise, any French attempt to do this will simply cause whatever financial sector they have to do its trading across the English channel.
Well... All in all, if the fact of taxing ALL financial transaction (even international ones) at a 0,5% rate is sufficient to make some financial activity to go abroad, face it : that mean they were going to leave already. So, at least let's do money on those that will remain. I think our country has better things to offer to the global economy than just a Stock Exchange market. And, well... Financial money has no real value to society, only to its owners ; so it'll be far better for us on the longer term to re-industrialize, finance research and redistribute wealth than to capitalize on the capitalists.
And in fact it's not as if they weren't doing what you're saying already : the Transnationals, MegaCorporation et al. are already doing a great part of their trading in England, Luxembourg or whatever fiscal paradise seems attractive at the time.

Guardsman Bass wrote:Besides, you don't think that Sarkozy and the French Parliament (which approved the reform program) probably considered this option? It's not like he and they were exactly leaping at the chance to piss off much of the French populace before the economic crisis came along.
Maybe they thought of it, but that does not matter because they weren't really thinking about it, i mean, for the good of the country and its people. They where just doing the reform the MEDEF [1] was telling them to do. And for the popular protest, well... That's Sarkozy. That's how he roll. In some way he's how foreigners sees the French : He go his own way without consideration for what others may say or feel or do. Pretty stubborn, in fact.


[1] Please note that the own brother of the President, Guillaume Sarkozy, is a senior executive of the MEDEF, and is one of the heads of an Health Insurance group (Malakoff Mederic) - which will be one of the prime beneficiary of the Reform. Conflict of interest, anyone ?
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Samuel »

Rabid wrote:And, well... Financial money has no real value to society, only to its owners ; so it'll be far better for us on the longer term to re-industrialize, finance research and redistribute wealth than to capitalize on the capitalists.
Er, yes it does. The point of the financial sector is to allocate capital to where it can best be used and to help make up for the fact that people who do projects and people who have the money to do the projects are usually not the same. It has social value the same way prices do. It may be easy to manipulate and may not show the true value of many items, but that doesn't mean you should eliminate it.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Rabid »

Samuel wrote:Er, yes it does. The point of the financial sector is to allocate capital to where it can best be used and to help make up for the fact that people who do projects and people who have the money to do the projects are usually not the same. It has social value the same way prices do. It may be easy to manipulate and may not show the true value of many items, but that doesn't mean you should eliminate it.
When i said 'Financial money' I meant money obtained from speculation, without creation of a real tangible wealth behind, be it material or intellectual.
On the topic of "[allocating] capital to where it can best be used : financing people's projects who haven't the cash to do it", well, sometime State regulation can be a wonderful thing. I don't advocate full communism the old soviet way, obviously, as it proved to be somewhat unsuccessful, but we have to acknowledge that total market deregulation showed the same thing altogether. Ergo, we have to think-up a way to redistribute credit to those who need it first, instead of, like the old saying goes, "lending only to the rich".
Regulating who get what first with one of the (mostly) state-owned banking corporations would help. Those fancy "crédit d'impôt" too (you borrow all the money, with all the interest ; but the state in exchange deduct a part of this money from the taxes you pay). Obviously, it would make the private banking corporation a bit angry, and they would increase their interest rate in reaction of the freely allowable credit share decreasing ; but that wouldn't be that much of a loss. And nothing prevent us from passing some laws on the subject (except maybe those 'neo-liberalist' of the European Commission)
So, a kick in the butt of those fat-ass bankers with their top hat wouldn't be such a loss for the People [bombastic tone]. It isn't as if we weren't already in the midst of a financial crisis / recession after all ; So, why not try to whip things clean while we are at it, eh ?

The only problem, actually, is that we have no control over our money, being in the Eurozone, so it will be difficult for us to pull these lever. And it would be almost suicidal for our economy, or the European one for that matter, to take our monetary independence to return to the good old 'Franc Français'. So we are effectively taken in hostage by the European Central Bank on this topic. The best thing to do would be to make so that the ECB is under democratic control somehow, unlike now were it can decide by itself what it does.
Sometime I think it would have been more productive to allow the countrys of the Eurozone to have their own currency, these currency being indexed on the Euro with a fixed (negociated) rate, to somewhat fight monetary dumping into the Eurozone ; rather than just having a single monolithic currency with all the political problems it carry...
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by montypython »

Samuel wrote:
Rabid wrote:And, well... Financial money has no real value to society, only to its owners ; so it'll be far better for us on the longer term to re-industrialize, finance research and redistribute wealth than to capitalize on the capitalists.
Er, yes it does. The point of the financial sector is to allocate capital to where it can best be used and to help make up for the fact that people who do projects and people who have the money to do the projects are usually not the same. It has social value the same way prices do. It may be easy to manipulate and may not show the true value of many items, but that doesn't mean you should eliminate it.
I've always wondered what things would look like if capital were socialized in a manner similar to how worker-cooperatives work, as opposed to being controlled by entities such as stock-holder based corporations and such...
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Guardsman Bass »

montypython wrote:
Samuel wrote:
Rabid wrote:And, well... Financial money has no real value to society, only to its owners ; so it'll be far better for us on the longer term to re-industrialize, finance research and redistribute wealth than to capitalize on the capitalists.
Er, yes it does. The point of the financial sector is to allocate capital to where it can best be used and to help make up for the fact that people who do projects and people who have the money to do the projects are usually not the same. It has social value the same way prices do. It may be easy to manipulate and may not show the true value of many items, but that doesn't mean you should eliminate it.
I've always wondered what things would look like if capital were socialized in a manner similar to how worker-cooperatives work, as opposed to being controlled by entities such as stock-holder based corporations and such...
How such a thing even be carried out? Do the co-ops vote on making loans? Appoint managers to make loans? Sell bonds? It doesn't seem a lot different from simply having a bunch of privately held companies and individuals doing the lending.
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Re: French President confronts mob, Wins.

Post by Samuel »

When i said 'Financial money' I meant money obtained from speculation, without creation of a real tangible wealth behind, be it material or intellectual.
You mean buying when the price is low and selling when the price is high? Something which helps stabilize prices?
well, sometime State regulation can be a wonderful thing.
How do you regulare lending to the point of eliminating speculation? You can eliminate people who manipulate prices, but I don't see how you can completely and utterly control speculation by regulation.
Ergo, we have to think-up a way to redistribute credit to those who need it first, instead of, like the old saying goes, "lending only to the rich".
This is so incredibly bad I don't know where to start. I hope you are refering to microcredit, which wasn't done by mainstream banks because lending poor people money is risky (they can just take it and run). Also, most rich people aren't interested in borrowing money because... you have to pay it back. So the rich people who borrow money tend to be those who think they can make more than the cost of the loan and the required interest. This help fund projects by allocating capital to ones that people think offer the highest rate of return.
they would increase their interest rate in reaction of the freely allowable credit share decreasing ; but that wouldn't be that much of a loss.
Yes, the interest rate is complety unrelated to the economic growth rate. It isn't like making it more expensive for people to invest in new projects could possibly hurt the economy :roll:

There is left wing economics and then there is popualism. You are definately practicing the later.
The best thing to do would be to make so that the ECB is under democratic control somehow, unlike now were it can decide by itself what it does.
That is a really bad idea. Short term inflation helps the growth rate. In the long run it fucks up the economy. If people were wll educated in economics and valued long term benefits this wouldn't be a problem.
Sometime I think it would have been more productive to allow the countrys of the Eurozone to have their own currency, these currency being indexed on the Euro with a fixed (negociated) rate,
No. Having the same currency reduces transaction costs. While it does mean you can't fine tune your economy as effectively, it should increase overall productivity.
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