Race Based Scholarships

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-24 01:29am

Darth Wong wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:If they really wanted to they could get their grades up and get a scholarship that way. Or they could have kept their grades at passing and joined a sport and work hard there to get a scholarship. Track/x-country is basically a scholarship handout.
Sports scholarships should be abolished completely.
Is it fair that I have to work 4 times as hard as someone else who gets a scholarship just because he/her was born that way?
An asthmatic with no sports ability could make the same complaint about those athletic scholarships, and with even more legitimacy since the notion of handing out scholarships solely for athletic ability pisses all over the entire concept of scholarship.

If we get rid of sports scholarship then where would schools like Duke and USC be?!!!! LOL

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:29am

Knife wrote:It shouldn't be a moral program. Rather, if you want to succed then the means to do it are available. There are alot of poor in this country and not all of them are black. The system is set against poor and if black kids want to view that as a racial thing, they are buying into a illusion of race which is every bit as bad as those on the other side of the race issue.

True. Explain how you intend to solve the problem, then. Just tell yourself it will magically go away?

David · Post by **David** » 2003-02-24 01:30am

Good God can you imagine the media frenzy if the KKK started going around offering full scholarships to white kids.

Also a question, if a white person who has been raised in Africa, immersed in African culture, and has citizenship in a African nation immigrates to America, would it be fraudulant for him to put on a scholarship (that takes race into account) that he is an African-American? After all, no work applications or scholarships say "black" anymore, just African American. But those applications assume that if he puts African America that he is black.

BTW, this isn't some Strawman or whatever. I go to a college that has hundreds of forgien students in it, most from Zimbabwie (sp?). Several of them are whiter than I am, yet when asked what they are they respond "African."

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:33am

David wrote:Good God can you imagine the media frenzy if the KKK started going around offering full scholarships to white kids.

That already exists informally, in the sense that whites have a far greater likelihood of having enough inter-generational money to go to a good university. The fact that black/white high school graduation discrepancies have largely disappeared while college attendance discrepancies have not is an indicator of this phenomenon.

Also a question, if a white person who has been raised in Africa, immersed in African culture, and has citizenship in a African nation immigrates to America, would it be fraudulant for him to put on a scholarship (that takes race into account) that he is an African-American? After all, no work applications or scholarships say "black" anymore, just African American. But those applications assume that if he puts African America that he is black.

Actually, I have always opposed the use of the term "African-American" since it makes people sound like they're immigrants.

BTW, this isn't some Strawman or whatever. I go to a college that has hundreds of forgien students in it, most from Zimbabwie (sp?). Several of them are whiter than I am, yet when asked what they are they respond "African."

You know what Zimbabwe's government is like. Would YOU brag about being a Zimbabwean?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:34am

Trytostaydead wrote:If we get rid of sports scholarship then where would schools like Duke and USC be?!!!! LOL

Where they deserve to be, while real schools like MIT get the glory?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-24 01:37am

Darth Wong wrote:
Trytostaydead wrote:If we get rid of sports scholarship then where would schools like Duke and USC be?!!!! LOL
Where they deserve to be, while real schools like MIT get the glory?

Actually, my hats off to Duke and USC's graduate programs. Good god, so much good stuff comes out of there. Same with Stanford. But the real good stuff comes from Germany and Spain and Japan.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-24 01:38am

Darth Wong wrote:
Knife wrote:It shouldn't be a moral program. Rather, if you want to succed then the means to do it are available. There are alot of poor in this country and not all of them are black. The system is set against poor and if black kids want to view that as a racial thing, they are buying into a illusion of race which is every bit as bad as those on the other side of the race issue.
True. Explain how you intend to solve the problem, then. Just tell yourself it will magically go away?

Scholorships should not be there to make others feel good, that is the fundelmental difference that I think you and I are having. If any minority kids look upon it as a racial problem rather than a way for poor kids to get into a expensive insitution they are reading too far into it. The reason for scholorships, as I see it, is to allow people who are smart enough or qualified enough to enter higher education if they don't have the financial means to go and not for a "whoa's me, I am a victim so I need to go to colledge" type thing.

I want my doctor to be smart and I don't care if he/she is black, white, yellow, red, green, plaid, or pink. I want the people with the most G2 to go to higher education and not those who believe that, even though they are not that smart, the world owes them something.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-24 01:38am

David wrote:Also a question, if a white person who has been raised in Africa, immersed in African culture, and has citizenship in a African nation immigrates to America, would it be fraudulant for him to put on a scholarship (that takes race into account) that he is an African-American? After all, no work applications or scholarships say "black" anymore, just African American. But those applications assume that if he puts African America that he is black.

They're not allowed to put African-American. I asked three of my friends, two from Kenya and one from Cote d'Ivoir. All three are blond-haired, blue-eyed, pale (very pale...none of them has a tan), and have African birth certificates, yet none are considered African-American despite being American citizens born in Africa.

DarthWong wrote:
The Dark wrote:
My belief is that instead of race-based scholarships, that money should go towards improving primary and secondary education at inner-city schools. Those students are traditionally the most likely to not get into college, and are the ones who need the most help.

Who's going to ante up to pay for this? What good teachers are going to want to teach in inner-city schools? Vouchers? That's how suburban parents who drop their kids off every morning pool their finances to build superior schools for their precious little ones.

My thought was to move the money from race-based scholarships to the inner-city schools, but I don't know how much that is. I personally don't think vouchers are any use, as it merely overcrowds decent schools and forces them down. I don't have all the answers, it's merely a belief of what should be, not necessarily what will be, and definitely not what is.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:38am

Re: sports: Seriously though, ask a hundred Americans about their opinions of universities around the country, and how much money would you want to bet that the first words that come out of their mouths have to do with their respective football programs?

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-24 01:39am

Probably 99 out of 100. The last one is either a doctor, a lawyer, or a band geek

.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-24 01:41am

Actually, I have always opposed the use of the term "African-American" since it makes people sound like they're immigrants.

I whole heartedly agree. Your either (if you live there) American or your not. Nobody calls me Scottish American, the whole practice is dumb.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:42am

Knife wrote:I want my doctor to be smart and I don't care if he/she is black, white, yellow, red, green, plaid, or pink. I want the people with the most G2 to go to higher education and not those who believe that, even though they are not that smart, the world owes them something.

Nobody was talking about granting scholarships to students who DON'T make the grade just because they're black. The idea is to make a scholarship which still requires a real academic qualification (eg- not fucking football or track) but which a black kid can get while an Asian (for example) can't, hence giving black kids more hope. Hope and motivation seem to be the biggest problem with young American black kids and scholastics from what I've seen.

David · Post by **David** » 2003-02-24 01:42am

They're not allowed to put African-American. I asked three of my friends, two from Kenya and one from Cote d'Ivoir. All three are blond-haired, blue-eyed, pale (very pale...none of them has a tan), and have African birth certificates, yet none are considered African-American despite being American citizens born in Africa.

Oh I'm talking about people that are not American citizens by birth. Somewhere back down the line a few centuries I'm sure they were Germans or Dutch colonials that intermarried with black natives.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-24 01:44am

David wrote:
They're not allowed to put African-American. I asked three of my friends, two from Kenya and one from Cote d'Ivoir. All three are blond-haired, blue-eyed, pale (very pale...none of them has a tan), and have African birth certificates, yet none are considered African-American despite being American citizens born in Africa.

Oh I'm talking about people that are not American citizens by birth. Somewhere back down the line a few centuries I'm sure they were Germans or Dutch colonials that intermarried with black natives.

The one from Cote d'Ivoir was a citizen of that nation by birth. One Kenyan was Kenyan by birth, and the last held dual citizenship.

I guess this would kind of answer my Russia question too...it seems that it is based on ethnicity, not nationality.

David · Post by **David** » 2003-02-24 01:48am

Interestingly when cancelling affirmative action ( and I roll my eyes everytime I hear this term) is being considered, someone jumps up and says minorities ( what they mean to say is blacks) deserve government handouts because of the suffering their ancestors went through. I don't have any problems with people recieving scholarships based on race religion etc so long as it's from a private organization, but when it comes from the government it is basically comming from my pocket.

So will someone please tell me why I deserve to pay these people.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-24 01:48am

Darth Wong wrote:
Knife wrote:I want my doctor to be smart and I don't care if he/she is black, white, yellow, red, green, plaid, or pink. I want the people with the most G2 to go to higher education and not those who believe that, even though they are not that smart, the world owes them something.
Nobody was talking about granting scholarships to students who DON'T make the grade just because they're black. The idea is to make a scholarship which still requires a real academic qualification (eg- not fucking football or track) but which a black kid can get while an Asian (for example) can't, hence giving black kids more hope. Hope and motivation seem to be the biggest problem with young American black kids and scholastics from what I've seen.

First, I agree with the idea of elliminating sports scholorships. Probably pissing off more underprivalaged youths but .....

Second, the hope and motivation is that the scholorships are there if you work for them. If you do your work and make the grade, we will foot the bill for you. Thats the point, not one of "well, your black and so we should send you to colledge." That sends the wrong message and continues the victimization idealology. They must do the work and then we will foot the bill, that is a good lesson in of itself.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-24 01:51am

Knife wrote:Second, the hope and motivation is that the scholorships are there if you work for them. If you do your work and make the grade, we will foot the bill for you. Thats the point, not one of "well, your black and so we should send you to colledge." That sends the wrong message and continues the victimization idealology.

True, it suggests that they're not capable of competing at the same level as a non-minority student (and I've been told this by a black friend of mine who felt this way). Most people I know would rather compete for scholarships on their own merit.

They must do the work and then we will foot the bill, that is a good lesson in of itself.

Works for me. Get the grades, get the cash. Sounds like a plan for improving the work ethic in this greedy nation

.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:53am

Knife wrote:First, I agree with the idea of elliminating sports scholorships. Probably pissing off more underprivalaged youths but .....

Heh heh ... while eliminating that ridiculous escape route, thus forcing them to look to academics more.

Second, the hope and motivation is that the scholorships are there if you work for them. If you do your work and make the grade, we will foot the bill for you. Thats the point, not one of "well, your black and so we should send you to colledge."

Actually, in this case it would be "if you do your work and make the grade and you're black, we'll try to give you a leg up". Not quite either of the two alternatives you cited.

That sends the wrong message and continues the victimization idealology. They must do the work and then we will foot the bill, that is a good lesson in of itself.

In principle, absolutely. But from a unitarian ethics standpoint, that doesn't seem to work.

PS. I can only imagine what I'd be hearing now if I were a black person instead of an Asian, trying to defend this idea.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-24 01:56am

Look, this should be how it works for scholarships..

1) How much income do their parents make?
2) Highest education achieved by their parents
3) Jobs? And how many hours per week
4) Grade trends
5) Standardized test scores
6) Any mitigating factors? Getting over drugs, dysfunctional family, etc.
7) Personal essay
8) Letters of Recommendations

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:59am

Trytostaydead wrote:Look, this should be how it works for scholarships..

1) How much income do their parents make?
2) Highest education achieved by their parents
3) Jobs? And how many hours per week
4) Grade trends
5) Standardized test scores
6) Any mitigating factors? Getting over drugs, dysfunctional family, etc.
7) Personal essay
8) Letters of Recommendations

Some of those criteria don't make any sense. What should the parents' level of education have to do with anything? From pure principle, the only things which should matter are financial situation and grades. Race only comes into play if you wish to use the scholarship as a social engineering tool. Drug use and a criminal record should, if anything, DISQUALIFY someone from a scholarship rather than being used as a mitigating factor.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-24 02:03am

Sorry, what I meant is.. if they took drugs and they're getting over it while fixing their lives. I think that deserves special recognition, managing to get over an addiction and clean up your life, and grade trends should help prove that.

Parents' education should be important. Some doctors earn very little, but what about the poor girl whose dad's a plumber and could never really teach his children much as opposed to the poor doctor?

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-02-24 02:04am

Darth Wong wrote: Sports scholarships should be abolished completely.

Maybe so but it is just an example of some other way that they could get into a college by working hard in and keeping at least minimum grades. You know what I did during the summers? While everyone sleeping till the afternoon, I would wake up at 8 in the morning, get ready, get on the bus to go where I was to run that day and run about 4 miles. Then I would get back home only to get back on the bus in the evening to run another 7-9 miles. That was everyday. I worked hard for something and got it. Not only that but my transcript average was 89. If I could do that living in a Flatbush Brooklyn anybody can.

An asthmatic with no sports ability could make the same complaint about those athletic scholarships, and with even more legitimacy since the notion of handing out scholarships solely for athletic ability pisses all over the entire concept of scholarship.

I don't see how he could make a complain with more legitimacy. Getting a athletic scholarship requires you to put time and effort into it whilst getting a scholarship based on your race is something you could get for about no effort (I don't know how people get so low GPA, mines was 3.7 and I didn't put any extra effort in school work) and just being born.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-24 02:07am

Trytostaydead wrote:Sorry, what I meant is.. if they took drugs and they're getting over it while fixing their lives. I think that deserves special recognition, managing to get over an addiction and clean up your life, and grade trends should help prove that.

Parents' education should be important. Some doctors earn very little, but what about the poor girl whose dad's a plumber and could never really teach his children much as opposed to the poor doctor?

What? That still doesn't make much sense. Personaly, if they did and I stress 'did' drugs, thats a private matter and one that doesn't need to be disclosed. If they are currently on drugs, then they should be disqualified.

As far as parental income, it should be based on income and not what particular job gives the parents that income. Poor is poor, that should be the point, to help poor kids get into school if they are able too.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-24 02:07am

ArmorPierce wrote:I don't see how he could make a complain with more legitimacy. Getting a athletic scholarship requires you to put time and effort into it whilst getting a scholarship based on your race is something you could get for about no effort (I don't know how people get so low GPA, mines was 3.7 and I didn't put any extra effort in school work) and just being born.

A race-based scholarship which still requires high grades requires relevant work, ie- scholastic work. An athletic scholarship which requires only minimum grades (as you put it) requires irrelevant work, ie- non-scholastic work. The complaint is more legitimate. Why don't we start giving out scholarships for kids who work hard as pimps or drug runners on the side?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-24 02:08am

I don't see how he could make a complain with more legitimacy. Getting a athletic scholarship requires you to put time and effort into it whilst getting a scholarship based on your race is something you could get for about no effort (I don't know how people get so low GPA, mines was 3.7 and I didn't put any extra effort in school work) and just being born.

Try taking 4 upper division neuroscience classes with wonderful topics like the physics of membrane potentials, having two research jobs that either have you in surgery for 10 hours w/no lunch break, or experiments that run until 6 am in the morning, a manic depressive mom.. and we'll talk about why some people struggle with their GPAs!!!!

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