Help with vs debate

[darth_timon]

Hi all,

I did post this once before, but received no replies- if a mod feels this is spamming, please feel free to delete this post.

I could do with some help in an SG v ST debate on Gateworld. I am outnumbered and cannot keep up with my opponents, owing to family and work commitments. I am also not certain on the quality of my own arguments, and could probably use some help with them. Indeed, any help would be appreciated!

[Stofsk]

I don't know Stargate too well. If you need help with Trek, just ask questions. At the moment there isn't anything to go on because you haven't posted any of the rebuttals you've been getting.

[darth_timon]

At the moment Gateworld is down so I can't reproduce the arguments exactly, however to summarise:

One of the people I am arguing with is suggesting that Pegasus could be indicative of much higher firepower than suggested on this site. They also suggest that Relics suggests much more powerful shields than Mike gives them credit for. They also refer to how slipstream could be easily designed into new classes of ship and how Survivors is not indicative of shield strength, owing to the 'god-like being' who created the ship, despite Worf giving figures in clear scientific terms.

We've also had disputes as to what ejecta we should see from TDIC. Apparently the shockwaves we see are dust clouds, and the reason we don't see any other indications of 30% crust destruction is because these dust clouds obscure our view.

[darth_timon]

Ok, here is my latest post, outlining some of my arguments:

Ok, I have had a closer look at the arguments of both Tetsujin and Pheonix and am more or less ready to post a more comprehensive reply.

Silent Enemy: The problem I have with taking this episode as any sort of benchmark for the progress of Federation technology is that we have two instances where firepower exceeds the normal operating parameters of the ship, the first being caused by an alien device, and the second where they deliberately overcharge the phasers to achieve the same result. If they are in a position of having to overcharge their weapons every time they want to achieve a 200MT shot, they will end up doing increased damage to the weapons system and possibly the power grid too. You increase the wear and tear on those systems every time you exceed their normal operating parameters, which makes it impractical and therefore not wise to treat as a benchmark.

The Die is Cast: What we have here is an episode where the visual evidence and the dialogue does not mesh. I operate under the idea that visuals are superior to dialogue, under the suspension of disbelief principle, as using this principle, characters can make errors (they are only human after all... or Romulan, as the case may be), but the visuals are clear cut. With the supposed destruction of 30% of a planet's surface there is certain phenomena we should expect to see if firepower is the main means of causing this destruction. The vaporisation or fragmentation of so much material will result in huge, prolonged ejecta into the atmosphere, and so much heat from vaporisation will have the effect of melting material as well. We should be seeing a tremendous light show as this happens, and blasting down to the upper mantle, which on earth at least is a viscous, hot layer, should lead to us seeing, in at least some areas of the attack, this hot, bright, viscous layer.

Instead, the dust clouds/shockwaves are gone very quickly. They settle down in a matter of seconds, which simply isn't possible with such a huge release of energy. The only way for 30% crust destruction to happen without seeing such effects is if some sort of chain reaction was taking effect, and chain reactions don't necessarily need a lot of firepower to cause damage.

Changing Face of Evil: The bare bones of what we know are- a Breen fleet got within range of earth and attacked. I will agree that all else is speculation. However, logic comes into play to fill the gaps. Would the Breen have had time to drop shields and land troops whilst under attack from ground defences, orbital defence and any ships in the area? Would they really have deliberately used low power weapons when they had the opportunity to deal the Federation a crippling blow?

Pegasus: The transcript of the episode states that the asteroids in this episode are made of proto-planetary matter. The properties of such asteroids are not unknown, and it is believed there is less than a 10% change of such asteroids being metallic. Secondly, the asteroid was at least partially hollow, which will reduce the firepower needed to destroy it.

Relics: If taken as an example of high shield strength, this episode stands against all other visual evidence. It is the contradiction, as opposed to the rule. If looked at from the standpoint of the other evidence, there is a case, which I have already made, which allows for the possibility of there being low shield strength, thus tying it in with all the other visual evidence.

Enemies: The Hatak sat for ten hours near a blue giant star. Whichever interpretation of blue giant you take, the Hatak was near a much energetic star than the Enterprise was in Relics and two different individuals have calculated that the minimum yield for Hatak shields, as a result of this, are in the multi-gigaton range.

Beach Head Tetsujin agrees that this episode is proof of multi-megaton firepower for Hataks. The only dispute lies with determining the exact power of each shot.

Goa'uld Policy Pheonix asked why we don't see the Goa'uld perform their high yield destruction against the targets we see in the show. I reply with a question of my own- why in the instances on screen, would they need to? What would they gain from it? The only such occasion which requires closer scrutiny is Homecoming, which I need to review.

[darth_timon]

Did you just ask for help, then proceed to ignore the responses you got?

This is the first opportunity that I've had to post an argument in depth.

We should be seeing a tremendous light show as this happens, and blasting down to the upper mantle, which on earth at least is a viscous, hot layer, should lead to us seeing, in at least some areas of the attack, this hot, bright, viscous layer.

That's factually false. The upper mantle isn't actually all that hot; its glow would be dull red, and might not be visible at all from space due to the atmosphere, etc.[/quote]

Ok, I'll accept that- but shouldn't we still see a lot more than dust clouds from such a huge release of energy? If the Founder's home world was anything at all like earth, the crust would be anything from 5KM to 30KM in depth- that much matter being destroyed would require a staggering degree of energy and surely that would produce more atmospheric disturbance than we actually see?

Instead, the dust clouds/shockwaves are gone very quickly. They settle down in a matter of seconds, which simply isn't possible with such a huge release of energy.

That's also factually false. We see the planet only twice for the sequence: during the firing and about ten seconds after they cease the first volley. In both scenes, the ring thingies are still there, going strong.

The first few shockwaves dissapate very quiickly, and are completely gone by the time the next shots hit, and the dust rings/shockwaves don't interact.

Would they really have deliberately used low power weapons when they had the opportunity to deal the Federation a crippling blow?

One of the add-in novels explains that Starfleet kept their big ships busy, so only small fighters were able to attack the surface, and yet they still managed megadeath.

This is supported by dialog in the show too - they talk about how the fleet fought them off quickly, but it was still nasty.

I didn't think the novels were canon in any respect? We never see fighters used by any major Star Trek power, with the except of the Federation, and we never see the Breen use fighters in the war.