Advice for 40k Tzeentch daemon army

[Korto]

I'm trying to make a 40k Tzeetch daemon army. To make life difficult for myself, I don't wan't the other chaos gods involved.
My original concept was that some cultists had summoned up the daemons, and so there would be cannon-fodder cultists as part of the army. A reading of the latest army book in the shop a little while back, however, gave me the impression that they've now made this a difficult thing to do. Don't remember too clearly why, just remember being unimpressed.

Tried ringing the GW shop for some advice, but what they basically told me "We can't tell you. Buy the book" Yeah. Thanks for that. Doesn't fit into the budget right now.

Anyway, questions:
What's the typical points value for a small to medium game?
What's the points value, and unit sizes for : Flamers, Horrors, Screamers, (any other unit types I may have forgotten, but I don't think so)
Points cost for a Lord of Change, and other daemonic leader types.
Compostion rules (eg, one elite for each 1000pts, or however they do it these days)
Finally, advice on the composition of the army, keeping in mind I was wanting a cultist presence (to fill a cannon-fodder/laugh track role), but I DON'T want chaos space marines (got on my nerves when I was playing Epic, and have been on them ever since. Space marines in general, actually)

I may one day decide to add a Slanesh presence, but now, pricey, shooty, and fragile appeals.

[weemadando]

Pink Horrors are fucking great. Or at least they used to be. Anything that upon death splits into two new critters makes life a nightmare for your opponent if used right. Often because of the multiplying threat aspect, they'll try and ignore them and that means you can sneak them to an objective, or they'll be the focus of overwhelming firepower, which means something else won't be.

[Norade]

Pink Horrors don't split, but are among the only daemons that have a shooting attack and 18" S4 AP4 Assault 3 is good. The Flamers are good, but expect to get a single attack in and then to lose your unit because they hurt and can be wiped out by even a five man tactical squad's shooting. Screamers are a bit worthless as you have to hit a tank in melee and most tanks will move so that's a 4+ at best and a 6+ if they moved fullspeed. You do get Fateweaver though, and he's nice for providing a bubble where you can re-roll failed saves. Heralds on a Chariot make good skirmishers as well.

For a thousand point army I might try this:

Lord of Change - 250pts.
Pink Horrors x6, Bolt of Change Upgrade - 112
Pink Horrors x6 - 102
Flamers x3 - 105
Flamers x3 - 105
Soulgrinder, Tongue Upgrade (S10 72" Heavy 1) - 160
Soulgrinder, Tongue Upgrade (S10 72" Heavy 1) - 160

It's fragile as all hell, but it'll hurt when it does hit and the Soulgrinders can walk forward while shooting so you will make use of both the guns and the nasty melee. Your Lord of Change is great for ripping into a squad that's be weakened by a flamer attack.

For waves I might split them like this:

Preferred Wave:
-Lord of Change
-Pink Horrors, Bolt
-Flamers
-Flamers

The preferred wave gets one threat on the table that might be ale to draw something out of position and into some shots from your horrors. The Flamers either wound on 4+ and ignore armor or glance tanks on a 4+, but they will melt if anything even looks at them.

Remember don't drop in cover, drop behind it and run into it because you can run the turn you drop in. You can also run to spread out to avoid taking hits from blast markers or templates. Also, drop troops behind line of sight blockers as you only have two squads that can hold objectives and without them you're playing for a draw.

[weemadando]

Are you serious? Horrors don't split anymore?

Goddamn GW.

[Norade]

Yeah something about "too complex".

[weemadando]

Yeah something about "too complex".

I would have thought they would have been all for a model where you need 3 of them just to field one.

[Sinewmire]

I think their rationale was that the difference between one daemon or two half daemons is rather moot.
Personally I liked the splitting idea myself, it was unique for Tzeench.

On the other hand, i forgave it because the models for generic horrors were fantastic, and I liked the idea of these daemons constantly tearing out of each other's bodies like bloody screaming snake skins.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... rod1040550
as opposed to the old models like this, the "goalkeeper" horrors
http://www.dark-net.co.uk/blacknet_gall ... ampion.jpg

*edit*

Oh, and yes, allies, ie daemons plus cultists, are pretty much out at the moment. You could try using a different army with count-as rules, but I appreciate that's not very satisfying.

Most battles are generally around the 1500 -2000 point mark around my area.
Are we allowed to detail force organisation charts here? I'm a little hazy on the rules regarding that.

[Serafina]

Detailed force charts is generally allowed - that is, listing unit&equipment names and the point costs of an force organization chart should be okay. Obviously, copying the codex beyond that is another different issue.

10-man Squad of Made Up troopers (100 points) with Shroomrifles (50) and Supressionhammers (60)
1 HAB-tank (1000 points) with Mech-Annihilator (200 points)
100 Trolls (20 points)

Trektard 1 point
WS 1 BS 1 S 1 T 4 W 2 I 1 A 2 Ld 5 Sv 3+
Special Rules: Wankage, Stupidity
etc.

Of course, i am not a moderator - but force charts are posted all over the web, including several well-known 40K fan sites.

[Sinewmire]

Thanks for the feedback, though I meant force organisation charts, which detail what type of units you are allowed to compose an army from.
No way you could know that, of course, unless you have more than a passing knowledge of the rules, and even then it'd be an easy mistake to make.

Mandatory are:
1HQ choice - a Commander type, such as a Daemon Prince.
2 Troop Choices - Each comprising of a unit of Horrors or similar core infantry unit.

Once these are filled you may take up to:
Three Elites choices - A step above the usual troops in your army, not sure what these are for Daemons.
Three Fast Attack choices - Daemon cavalry, light tanks, anything fast or mobile.
Three Heavy Support choices - Soulgrinders, tanks, specialist heavy weapon squads and suchlike.
an additional Four Troops choices - more bulk.

Infantry squads are currently the way to go, as they're best at controlling objectives and the like.

[Norade]

Not much help until you have the codex, but go to dakkadakka.com and they will help you a ton.

[Serafina]

Actually, i know the rules quite well, i just stumbled over a translation issue here (given that i mostly know the hobby in german).
And posting force organization charts shouldn't be an issue either - while it could be interpreted as "posting stuff from the rulebooks", it's really only a minor, minor point and common knowledge anyway. Seriously, if you don't know that, you have never played a single game of 40K (well, perhaps a test game).

That being said, i only know chaos daemons from ripping them apart with my courageous 127th Cadia.
Anyway, their strengths are rapid deployment and lot's of damage. Especially Tzeentch armies can dish out a lot of damage at close range, tough you need to avoid close-combat somewhat. I actually found it quite effective to charge Pin Horrors when possible, that way they were guaranteed to be incapable of shooting at me and i could use my firepower elsewhere.
You also have to take care about being outmaneuvered. While you can deploy all your troops per deep strike, they are just normal infantry after that. I actually managed to outmaneuver daemon armies sometimes (with Imperial Guard no less!) due to having more units and some fast vehicles (Valkyries!). Your only fast troops are Heralds on Disks/Chariots and Screamers.

Generally, a solid core of Horrors can take down hordes of Infantry - a S 4 AP 4 Assault 3 weapon will do that, and works against heavy infantry as well. Flamers are better against Heavy Infantry, since their attack allows no armor saves and always wounds on 4+. However, they are REALLY expensive and very easy to take out, so plan accordingly.
Screamers are your fast troops and good at taking out vehicles, especially for their costs. However, that's about all they are good at.
Since you have no real close combat specialist, a Daemon Prince or two are a good choice. With Soul Devourer, they are excellent at taking out enemy characters. To take on enemy CC-troops, Soul Grinders are a good choice.

So, your army should look like this:
HQ: Lord of Change and/or Herald on Chariot, depending on your preference.
Elite: 1 or two small squads of Flamers. Deployed carefully against heavy infantry.
Standard: 3-4 larger squads or Horrors. One should include the Changeling. Other, smaller squads can be very useful.
Assault: 0-2 units of Screamers, depending on your enemies mobility and amount of vehicles. Small squads are totally sufficient for the job
Support: 1-2 Daemon Princes for CC-support and one Soulgrinder against enemy melee troops.
For initial deployment, you can send in your elite troops first and grind up tough enemy targets, or send in normal troops and bind the enemy to protect your elites. It depends on the number of difficult targets you want to take out - an army with many vehicles would warrant the latter, one with few the former (and the same for CC-troops etc.)
Make sure that you have troops in the vicinity of your objectives, especially small horror squads are good for this (most enemies will focus their fire on your larger, closer squads).

Ironically, i think that Daemon armies require a lot of planning due to their lack of fast troop choices and their lack of really hard troops and CC-units (in the case of Tzeentch at least).

If you want a themed Tzeentch-army, a Chaos Space Marine army with lot's of Deamons might be a better choice for you than a pure deamon army, simply because the latter only has 1-2 choices in every troop category while the former is more versatile. You can counteract that, but you will have some frustrating games where you'll just get slaughtered because your plan went wrong.

[Sinewmire]

Actually, i know the rules quite well, i just stumbled over a translation issue here (given that i mostly know the hobby in german). And posting force organization charts shouldn't be an issue either - while it could be interpreted as "posting stuff from the rulebooks", it's really only a minor, minor point and common knowledge anyway. Seriously, if you don't know that, you have never played a single game of 40K (well, perhaps a test game).

Never meant to suggest you didn't, I had no idea either way! Anyway, glad I don't have to worry about GW's ninja lawyers coming in through my windows tonight. Korto was asking for composition rules and I was eager to help someone else with their hobby!

That being said, i only know chaos daemons from ripping them apart with my courageous 127th Cadia.

My Cadians have yet to face a Daemon army, as 99% of players around here field space marines. Apparently Space Marines don't like battle cannons! Who knew?

[Korto]

Just jumping on to thank people for their help. I can't stay long, as I've got one day to create a D&D adventure from scratch. I did have two days, but yesterday was spent just getting the bloody inspiration, because I had nothing.

I had noticed that horrors no longer split, and the reasons, as given here (too complex, what's the point anyway), are really weak. As said, it was unique, therefore there's the point, and how complex can it be? It's a model with an extra wound and a linked reinforcement.
I would like them to be shooters, but split, and when they split do so into two horrors just as powerful as the original (but which still die properly when shot). That would pose the opponent with an interesting conumdrum, shooting them is the only way to get rid of them, but if you do they double in number!

Really just plain can't take any cultists? No decent way? I was hoping I had mis-remembered or missed something. The concept is so obvious. Cultists summoned daemons.

I hope Screamers are more useful than Norade says, because I've already made 3 of them, with at least one more on the way (quite a nice design). Got three flamers so far, and maybe two horrors, so I've definetly got to make more of them. And of course the Lord of Change that some of you may have seen. Along with a bloodthirster, bloodletters, and khorne hounds for the wife, who has a small interest in Fantasy.


Some last notes
1) Yeah Serafina, no experience with 40k except a trial game. Lots with 5th ed Fantasy. Not exactly the same.
2)

...as 99% of players around here field space marines.

One of the reasons Space marines still get on my nerves after all these years. I'm so sick of hearing about them.

Finally, a theoretical question I've wondered since I read the new rule : The old way of doing armour saves was that, someone had an armour save of, eg, 3, and if shot they had to make a roll of 3+. A powerful weapon may have a -2 modifier, meaning they had to roll a 5+. Etc
The new way seems to be that there is no modifiying armour rolls. If the weapon is less powerful than the armour, they get an unmodified roll. If the weapon is more powerful than the armour, they get no roll at all!
This offended me at first (I'm a bit dwarvish when it comes to change), and then I started wondering why.
Does anyone know their reasoning behind the change?
Is it in fact a more accurate portrayal of real life weapons v armour?

[Norade]

40k and Fantasy are two different beasts entirely.

40k is much faster to play but the rules are 'simpler'. Fantasy has things like modified armor saves and plays a bit slower.

The reason why I say Screamers are many. The first is that they are worthless on the first turn so you can't kill something like Land Raider before it gets a chance to move 12", 15" if they use the pivot trick, towards you. the second will be shown below.

Stationary Chimera vs. 5 Screamers: 55+ points vs. 80 points
10 Attacks, 10 hits, 9 Pens, 1 Glance = This is decent and the Chimera is likely dead

Chimera moving 6" vs. 5 Screamers: 55+ points vs. 80 points
10 Attacks, 5 hits, 5 Pens, 1 Glance = Still a half decent chance to kill the Chimera

Chimera moving 12" vs. 5 Screamers: 55+ points vs. 80 points
10 Attacks, 2 hits, 2 Pens = The Chimera may survive and the troops inside can likely still shoot your Screamers to death

Given that most armies will have everyuthing hidden in metal boxes and moving 12" towards you, or objectives they simply can't kill things reliably enough nor can they kill enough things to really be worth taking.

[Sinewmire]

Does anyone know their reasoning behind the change?

THe change being "AP" - if a trooper has Carapace armour, good stuff, he gets a 4+ save. This represents both coverage, materials and damage management, and being shot with or a flamer (AP5) isn't going to bother him any more than being winked at by a lasgun (AP -). However, being shot at by a Lascannon (AP2) is a different matter. A Lascannon is designed to punch through tank hulls and armoured emplacements. Personell armour won't bother it a bit, and he gets no save at all.

That's the rationale, I think, that and keeping the book-keeping down. I remember trying to work out the Armour Penetration of a Lictor against a tank.... STR+DAM+d6+bonus penetration dice..... anyone got a calculator, a pen and a pencil?

Current ed. 40k is a lot better than the previous, where they massively oversimplified, but it's better than 2nd Ed, where it resembled a d20 roleplay system than a wargame, I feel.

[weemadando]

2nd Ed 40K was glorious. I will having nothing bad said about it.

[Sinewmire]

A single Wolf Guard terminator squad with Cyclones wiping out an army on the first turn with a salvo of all their missiles?
Assault cannons at STR 8, with up to 9 shots, each hit doing d8 wounds?

Don't get me wrong, I loved 2nd ed too, though I was too yound to be anything other than awful at it, bit there were some huge flaws.

[Raxmei]

The big thing about Chaos Daemons in 40k is that the entire army must enter play by deep strike. While this does give you certain advantages it is risky and tells the enemy a fair bit about your strategy ahead of time.

Daemons all have invulnerable saves (ignore AP) but the saving throws generally aren't terribly strong. Attackers that rely on mass instead of armor piercing are particularly effective against daemons for this reason.

You have some control over the order in which units arrive. In objectives missions you want your super killy elite units to come in first and your troops to come in later to take objectives.

There actually isn't any army that can field chaos cultists at the moment. The closest you can get anywhere in the game is Imperial Guard. The way that the game currently works won't allow you to mix army books unless you're playing in nonstandard scenarios or the Apocalypse expansion. Regarding the Daemon army in specific, the current fluff is that these daemons aren't summoned, but spontaneously appear from warp rifts. Chaos Space Marines can summon daemons, but without a warp rift present they're somewhat lacking and thus look nothing like the daemons in the Chaos Daemon army.

[Korto]

OK, so I'm thinking 18 to 24 horrors (one a changeling), 6 flamers, a Lord of Change, and perhaps 2 soulgrinders, or 1 and a daemon prince.
Of that, I've already got 3 flamers and the LoC. And three Screamers. Dakkadakka was saying they're useful, because they force vehicles to keep moving and therefore spoil their own shooting. Shrug. Probably depends on who you're fighting.
Got 4 weeks of TAFE left this year, so 8 casting days. No guarantee the course will be running next year. Maximum 48 figures (although larger figures, like greater daemons, take 3 slots). No worries.

Wasn't really planning to have soulgrinders. Didn't want the techno look in my army, and wasn't really confident I could reproduce it decently anyway, then today I had a realisation. I'm the one making the bloody things, they'll look how I damn well please. I had it in my head that it had to look like GW's, like I was some kind of idiot fanboy. So I spent about half of today and finally came up with something that looks a little like a beholder with a claw.

Realised I haven't been making any daemons with banners. How important are they in 40k?

[Serafina]

Realised I haven't been making any daemons with banners. How important are they in 40k?

Banners?
Oh yeez - you really ARE a 40K-virgin, aren't you?

There is no universal rule for banners in 40K. Most armies have no banners at all, and those who have them have them as special pieces of equipment or pure decoration. The back banners of Space Marines are an example of the latter, but they also have the Chapter banner which grants morale re-rolls and extra attacks to it's unit. The Imperial Guard has banners which work similar to WH Fantasy banners, but those are only available to the command units.
But generally, 40k does NOT have banners for units that work like those in Warhammer Fantasy (+1 to combat result).
There is a LOT of difference between 40K-rules and Fantasy rules, and the play dynamics are really very different. I advise you to read the rule and watch some games to learn about both.

Regarding deamon armies specifically don't have banners, tough banners could represent chaos icons (which make deep strike more predictable). They can also take deamonic instruments, which work like Fantasy-instruments (win a draw in melee).

I would advise you to take the banners (representing icons) if you want to, since not scattering during deep strike makes a lot of difference. The instruments are not that useful (if you can take them at all), given that you are not playing a close-combat army.
Of course, you can always build some deamons with them and just use them as decoration.