TSA agents now allowed to cop a feel

[General Zod]

It's only a matter of time til the first sexual misconduct lawsuit.

Starting Thursday, the manual search will involve a slide of the hand compared to the traditional pat down, NBC News has learned. TSA agents will use the front of their hands in searches, and the new process will include an agent running his or her hand up the inside of a passenger's leg.

TSA did not confirm details for security reasons, but did acknowledge a change in procedure.

"TSA is in the process of implementing an enhanced pat-down at security checkpoints as one of our many layers of security," said Luis Casanova, a TSA public affairs officer.

Vote: Do you prefer full-body scans or enhanced pat downs?

Pat downs are used on passengers who opt out of full-body scanner technology, as well as those that set off walk-through metal detectors or are selected for a random search.

Casanova said TSA constantly evaluates its security procedures. "Terrorism evolves. It's gone from hijacking planes to trying to blow them up in the air," he said.

Meanwhile, airport screening continues to evolve with the rollout of full-body image scanners. TSA on Thursday rolled out high-tech body scanners at Newark International Airport. The machine creates a computerized image of a person's body and give screeners the ability to check for weapons.

The scanners debuted at Kennedy Airport last week. As of Oct. 22, there are 317 machines in 65 airports across the country, Casanova said. TSA hopes to have 450 installed by the end of the year.

TSA officials will be at Newark Liberty Airport on Thursday to demonstrate the machines and procedures.

TSA says the technology is optional for all passengers.

I wonder if I can ask for a happy ending if I opt for the search.

[aerius]

I can't wait till they start doing the tit squeeze test, you gotta protect the people from exploding breast implants.

[Thanas]

TSA can go screw themselves.

Really, this is just degrading and idiotic, seeing how the scanning techniques have evolved enough that searches like that are no longer needed.

[Ryan Thunder]

It's an alternative to the scan, if I've read correctly.

[General Zod]

It's an alternative to the scan, if I've read correctly.

Not much of an alternative, really. "Get stripped digitally, get groped by knuckle-dragging agents or go home and waste $300+."

[Thanas]

You are not going to get stripped digitally. The images do not show your body in any detail besides general proportions.

[General Zod]

You are not going to get stripped digitally. The images do not show your body in any detail besides general proportions.

That was hyperbole in case it wasn't obvious.

[Thanas]

It wasn't, but thanks for clarifying.

[Themightytom]

I... kind of feel bad for the poor schmuck who has to do this every day... not everyone is feel worthy..

[Simon_Jester]

All things considered, I'd rather take the train.

I still wonder what an honest accounting of the indirect costs of the TSA in lost man-hours spent standing in line, flights not taken because people are fucking sick of putting up with them, and so on, would be...

[General Zod]

All things considered, I'd rather take the train.

I'd be more inclined to take the train if it were practical. Taking 2+ days to get somewhere isn't an option most of the time though.

[Simon_Jester]

All things considered, I'd rather take the train.

I'd be more inclined to take the train if it were practical. Taking 2+ days to get somewhere isn't an option most of the time though.

This is true in some cases and not in others; much depends on where you need to be and when.

I took the train out to a conference in Albuquerque last year: roughly 48 hours on the rails each way, starting on Saturday and arriving Monday, or leaving Friday and coming in Sunday. It's doable. California would have been tricky without taking three day weekends on each end, I'll grant.

But that's me- if for whatever reason your own travel needs can only be met if you can zip into the airport and be anywhere on the continent in under twelve hours, then you have a problem only air travel can solve.

[Sea Skimmer]

You are not going to get stripped digitally. The images do not show your body in any detail besides general proportions.

Which is why the electronics scans are also totally worthless. If you have liquid in a bag they won’t detect it with any reliability. Too bad that’s basically threat number one right now. At least a pat down has a random chance of detecting that. But logic has never been involved in this process. Its an new gadget they can use to make it look like somethings being done and that's about it.

[Zed Snardbody]

A couple things, yes the hand held metal detectors went away. Yes, its gone from a pat to a slide, its faster easier to teach. No, TSA's policy of using the back of the hands on sensitive areas has not changed for the typical pat down. Yes, the front of the hands will be used in the pat down in very rare and rigidly defined circumstances.

The pat down roll out is part of Washington's change in mind set from metallic threats (knives, guns) to non metallic (explosives and the like).

My airport was actually a pilot for this so I've done the new procedure for the last couple months actually.

A lot of us are thinking that these damn body imagers are more trouble than they're worth though as this goes on.

[Slacker]

I think a lot of people think most of the security procedures people have to deal with nowadays are more trouble than they're worth. Nothing personal, Zed, I realize it's your job, but is anyone ever going to hold an airplane hostage with a pen knife ever again? Unless it's a charter flight full of blue haired old ladies going to Las Vegas, I guess then they might still have a shot.

Liquid explosives are a problem, I grant you, but there doesn't seem to be any way to reliably find them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think a lot of people think most of the security procedures people have to deal with nowadays are more trouble than they're worth. Nothing personal, Zed, I realize it's your job, but is anyone ever going to hold an airplane hostage with a pen knife ever again? Unless it's a charter flight full of blue haired old ladies going to Las Vegas, I guess then they might still have a shot.

Liquid explosives are a problem, I grant you, but there doesn't seem to be any way to reliably find them.

What do you think would happen if the TSA didn't conduct these checks and then something did happen with a knife and someone was killed?

[Sarevok]

Current technology and precedures are good. But can they guarantee there will be no more terrorism involving airplanes in the future ? No. Perfect security is not possible and it is a valid concern if current obsession with safety has gone too far.

[General Zod]

I think a lot of people think most of the security procedures people have to deal with nowadays are more trouble than they're worth. Nothing personal, Zed, I realize it's your job, but is anyone ever going to hold an airplane hostage with a pen knife ever again? Unless it's a charter flight full of blue haired old ladies going to Las Vegas, I guess then they might still have a shot.

Liquid explosives are a problem, I grant you, but there doesn't seem to be any way to reliably find them.

What do you think would happen if the TSA didn't conduct these checks and then something did happen with a knife and someone was killed?

The same thing as any other murder case? I certainly don't recall a rash of stabbings on airlines before 9/11. I mean with crazies cutting off heads on buses how come we aren't required to submit to a search every time we use public transportation?

[Alyeska]

Heavy security for Mass Transit is a horrible idea. It destroys the entire concept of Mass Transit.

Mass Transit is designed to move high volumes of people to a variety of detinations very quickly. These high volumes of people are the fundamental target. Heavy security with extensive screening might make the Mass Transit itself safe, but comes with its own problems. It will massively slow down the usage of Mass Transit negating its usefulness Furthermore, the line waiting to be security screened becomes a target in itself. Any type of security that slows down Mass Transit is going to destroy the very aspects that make it useful while at the same time creating an unprotectable target that is still vulnerable.

Long distance travel is a little different. Train, boat, plane. Long distance travel can afford and should have some higher levels of security. Its a little slower in nature and people are expected to show up early. But even still, the security should be smartly done.

[General Zod]

Heavy security for Mass Transit is a horrible idea. It destroys the entire concept of Mass Transit.

Mass Transit is designed to move high volumes of people to a variety of detinations very quickly. These high volumes of people are the fundamental target. Heavy security with extensive screening might make the Mass Transit itself safe, but comes with its own problems. It will massively slow down the usage of Mass Transit negating its usefulness Furthermore, the line waiting to be security screened becomes a target in itself. Any type of security that slows down Mass Transit is going to destroy the very aspects that make it useful while at the same time creating an unprotectable target that is still vulnerable.

Long distance travel is a little different. Train, boat, plane. Long distance travel can afford and should have some higher levels of security. Its a little slower in nature and people are expected to show up early. But even still, the security should be smartly done.

Right, the thing is TSA security's not really smartly done. If someone was really determined to smuggle a weapon through the security all these measures won't help much.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The same thing as any other murder case? I certainly don't recall a rash of stabbings on airlines before 9/11. I mean with crazies cutting off heads on buses how come we aren't required to submit to a search every time we use public transportation?

I was thinking more along the lines of civil lawsuits. Generally that is what motivates excessive measures like this...

[General Zod]

The same thing as any other murder case? I certainly don't recall a rash of stabbings on airlines before 9/11. I mean with crazies cutting off heads on buses how come we aren't required to submit to a search every time we use public transportation?

I was thinking more along the lines of civil lawsuits. Generally that is what motivates excessive measures like this...

I could see those getting quashed pretty easily so long as certain minimum standards were upheld (as opposed to the overkill they're using now). There's nothing requiring businesses to be completely responsible for other customers' behavior as far as I'm aware.

[Alyeska]

Ars Technica has an article on this. Further information from The Atlantic. There are heavy suspicions that the new pat-down procedure is deliberately intended to embarass people into opting for the high-tech option instead.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... tdowns.ars

[Zed Snardbody]

Heavy security for Mass Transit is a horrible idea. It destroys the entire concept of Mass Transit.

Mass Transit is designed to move high volumes of people to a variety of detinations very quickly. These high volumes of people are the fundamental target. Heavy security with extensive screening might make the Mass Transit itself safe, but comes with its own problems. It will massively slow down the usage of Mass Transit negating its usefulness Furthermore, the line waiting to be security screened becomes a target in itself. Any type of security that slows down Mass Transit is going to destroy the very aspects that make it useful while at the same time creating an unprotectable target that is still vulnerable.

Long distance travel is a little different. Train, boat, plane. Long distance travel can afford and should have some higher levels of security. Its a little slower in nature and people are expected to show up early. But even still, the security should be smartly done.

Right, the thing is TSA security's not really smartly done. If someone was really determined to smuggle a weapon through the security all these measures won't help much.

I think a lot of it comes from the fact that no one ever stopped and looked at it from a blank slate. Everything the agency has rolled out procedure wise has been an escalation to what was their prior, they've never gone back and started from square one.

Case in point is the prohibited items list. Yes we finally started allowing nail clippers and scissors and the like through. But I still can't let a "knife" through even though my boot heel has a sharper edge then some of the knives that I've had surrendered.

Part of that though comes from the people they hire. As much as I hate to admit it, I would fire half of my officers, and honestly, I probably should have never been hired myself with my past experience. But they stood the screening force up so fast they needed strict hard guidelines that these new hires with minimal training could enforce. What makes it even worse on the average traveler now is that the agency has granted us discretion, but without the training or experience to back it up, which has confused the hell out passengers, and honestly the TSA officers themselves.

On the whole body imagers, I don't really know what I can say. They're better then a metal detector. But they see a lot, almost to much. I don't mean that how you think I mean. Think to much information and you'll get where I'm going with it. I think these machines would be fantastic in another generation of evolution in the technology.

I do wish the opting out of the imagers was handled better. I have opted on a few occasions just to see how it goes and its haphazard. Part of that comes staffing and a lack of direction. The officers staffing the imager can not conduct the pat down, you have to be handed off to a non active officer. Which means keeping positive control of you, finding the officer then getting you to the officer. I could keep going but I'm fast going off topic.

To sum up. It needs work, no one is happy, and we are all bashing our heads against a wall.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

The same thing as any other murder case? I certainly don't recall a rash of stabbings on airlines before 9/11. I mean with crazies cutting off heads on buses how come we aren't required to submit to a search every time we use public transportation?

I was thinking more along the lines of civil lawsuits. Generally that is what motivates excessive measures like this...

But isn't that an argument for trying to limit the litigation-happy culture of the US, rather than condoning/accomodating it through ever more ridiculous measures like these?