Trek Fleet counts

[Eternal_Freedom]

It was declared lost technology when it got pulled into one of the Maw's black holes at the culmination of the Jedi Academy series of novels, along with the DS prototype. It's "lost" because Qwi Xux, the only creature (aparently) who can build it had her mind wiped by Kyp Durron

EDIT: Centrepoint Station is fixed in place at what (I think) is a Lagrange point between Talus and Tralus in the Corellian System. Whilst it's main "weapon" has transgalactic range it probably wouldn't work through a wormhole and IIRC requires repulsors on the five correlian worlds to work properly, so it can't be moved.

And as Serafina pointed out, it isn't necessary when the Empire has so many other superweapons

[fallendragon]

i know the sun crusher itself was lost, but i was under the impression that Qwi Xux gave the stats for the rest of it when she showed the New republic how to make the Quantum-crystalline armor.

and what is the source for the centerpoint station needing the repulsors to work? as i was under the impression that it was internally powered.

but true it is not needed but i don't think even Picard could try and counter its sheer firepower, and taking out world by world seems slow to me

[Eternal_Freedom]

The thing about the repulsors is, as i said, IIRC. It may not need them. But as far as I know in the entire Civil War/Yuuzhan Vong war it was only fired a couple times, and that was by a particular individual (activated by Anakin Solo, fired by Thracken Sal-Solo in Jedi Eclipse)

[fallendragon]

ya but it got off its first shot, at least i think there might have been a second, during the Quantum-Corellian Insurrection, and how many shots did the Death stars get off?

[Eternal_Freedom]

DS1, at least four, possibly five shots (I cant recall exactly how many it fired at Despayre)

1. Very low power shot (~4%), destroyed Rebel Lucrehulk batleship Fortressa
2. Low power shot (~30%), fired at Despayre
3. Low power shot (~30%), fired at Despayre
4. Possible Low power shot (~30%), possibly fired at Despayre
5. Full power shot, destroyed Alderaan

DS2, at least two, possibly more, fired at Rebel cruisers during the Battle of Endor. One shot vaporised the cruiser Liberty, the other hit an IIRC unnamed Mon Calamari cruiser

As for Centrepoint, they did fire it a second time during the Second Galactic Civil War, but the Jedi messed with it's targeting system so it fired at itself. Lols

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Would Federation fighters even fit in the trench? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been operating under the impression that Federation fighters are signifigantly larger than Star Wars ones. Something like the size of the Falcon, with a three man crew, or am I thinking of something else?

[Serafina]

Would Federation fighters even fit in the trench? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been operating under the impression that Federation fighters are signifigantly larger than Star Wars ones. Something like the size of the Falcon, with a three man crew, or am I thinking of something else?

IIRC, they would barely fit into the trench, without any room for maneuvering. Given how crappy SF-pilots regularly are, they might just crash into it.
They would be prime targets for TIE-fighters, but if we believe Picard that won't endanger them anyway

Anyway, it doesn't matter, since the second Death Star had no such weakness.

[Eternal_Freedom]

He also presupposes that Feddie torpedoes can make that astonishing turn into the exhaust port. Even if they use microtorpedoes, I still doubt it given what we've seen of their maneuvreing

Even better, he supposes it would be the DS1, and that the Feds KNOW about the weakness! By that logic, do the Empire know about the shield-modulation weakness on (at least) the Galaxy class?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I thought they had to fly down the trench to avoid the massed fire of the surface guns

[Serafina]

Using the trench and making the turn is not necessary. Just fire the shot straight in from a distance.

The ANH battle only happened the way it did due to pathetic SW technology limitations; it's hardly the only way it could have possibly been done.

Or because a straight top-down approach would be suicidal due to surface guns.

But WHY THE HELL is every damn Trekkie here ignoring that the second Death Star did NOT have that weakness? It doesn't matter whether Trek could somehow destroy the first Death Star (given their pathetic targeting, maneuverability and lack of knowledge about that weakness), because they won't fight against the first Death Star.

[Serafina]

It had its own weaknesses anyway, like never being completed before being destroyed.

While that is a weakness, it's idiotic to call it a weakness of the design. That's like criticizing an unfinished car for not being able to drive.
The Federation would never get a chance to attack the DS II while unfinished, and after it's finished, they are done for.

The position in time for a vs is quite arbitrary. It could be vs ANH in which case they fight DS1. Maybe vs ESB, TPM, ATOC, or ROTS in which case they fight no death star at all. Could be vs ROTJ which has the unfinished DS2. Or could be vs some point in the future that has whatever the EU says.

Ah, it's nice to see that you are copying Picards arguments now.
By that same logic, i could say "The position in time for a vs is quite arbitrary. It could be vs TNG, in which case the Federation is pretty un-militarized. Maybe vs DS 9, Voyager or the movies, in which case they have that. Or it could be vs TOS".
OF COURSE it's arbitrary. But since we were talking about "The Empire" all the time and idiots like Picard reject the EU, you are up against a Death Star in any case. Also, the Empire had the ability to build a Death Star at all times.

But what really matters here is that we are comparing technology and political structure, not picking arbitrary points in time and plotting them against each other. The Empire (and even the Old Republic) has the technology to build a Death Star and many other superweapons. That's what matters here. Appealing to a specific time is a cop-out, we might as well reverse that and limit Star Trek to early TNG if we want to.

It's all made up, so no need to go crazy about what they are and are not fighting.

Oh, but there is a good reason: It's a tactic used by idiots as a cop-out, in order not to deal with things their mind can't handle. It is no logical or analytical background, it's just about arbitrarily changing the rules. No one arguing for SW has done that here, because there is no point to it (and because we don't need to) - ST and SW get all the technologies they can reasonably have during the shows (excluding some one-shot devices). Only the trektards are trying to limit what one side has acces to - and of course, that side is not Trek.

[Kythnos]

Appealing to a specific time is a cop-out.

Personally I think it is because they just do not understand the "truth" about their condition when you carry that concept to the logical conclusion.
Of course the end result is a "curb stomp" of terrifying proportions, even when based on the most conservative estimates.

[Connor MacLeod]

Because I just don't find them all that interesting. To be more precise, I just don't find them that interesting when they're spoonfed to you from a tech manual or from debates that have already gone over the same ground ten times before (figuring them out for yourself can be somewhat entertaining). It becomes like Bible debating or something, where people are just quoting stuff at each other, and I don't find that very interesting.

That has nothing to do with the numbers, man. It has everything to do with the people involved. You're complaining that most sci fi debate is basically treated like a sporting event, when you prefer that it be more like a scholarly debate. Which is fine, I prefer it that way too. But to be honest, even some of the more "intellectual" debates can get heated simply because, I suspect, you have men involved, and men interact in certain ways. Adversarial, alpha-male BS often tends to be part of that. especially when you have young men involved.

But numbers have nothing to do with it, as I said. I mean lets assume firepower was COMPLETELY equal between two sides A and B. But Side A happens to have a vastly greater range than Side B. Or maybe more precise/tactical FTL. Or some other huge qualitative/quantitative advantage. It ends up being the same issue as with "firepower". The problem is, you can keep "equalizing" it as much as you like, but that pretty much nullifies the point of vs debating and you're pretty much making shit up at that point.

As a side note, I don't always find tech manuals are "instant answers" like the ICS is often treated. The ICs gives us some hard data and useful benchmarks, but it doesnt tlel us everything. For example, we aren't told about shield heat sink capacities, how the "wattage" rating for shield applies (i've seen several interpretations that it could be tine rate at which energy is absorbed into the sinks, or out.. .and that means we only have one of those two numbers.) Hell the fact we're only told the energy related data is limited, since there are forces involved often (and sometimes mass/momentum) and all that other stuff.

One other thing that is nver considered for the ICS stuff is that while we're told yields, we never are told what they are used for and/or what conditions apply. I mean, its pretty silly to assume a starship operates at 100% max performance all the time, with no safety margins or consideration for any other needs (conserving power or fuel, etc.) Currenlty I tend to think of "max yield" TT/Pt range shots on Star Destroyers as being analogus to the nukes on a ballistic nuke sub - they might be used in a combat situation but aren't neccesarily designed by that. And possibly limited in number.

Yeah, that's a pretty good point, I don't think movie only would work very well because there just isn't enough to go on. Maybe make it no tech manuals or other fluff on either side, just the actual stories.

Well, the moveis could work, except that it would involve alot of speculation, and in my experience only EXPLICITLY STATED stuff will avoid nitpickery. And sometimes not even then. Again, it has more to do with the people involved in it than what is being discussed. If you can cut out the quasi-religious/political crap, its alot more straightforward and enjoyable. Sometimes its not even just a faction, its criticism of an approach (the "hur hur vaporize = explode" crowd is a particular ire of mine because 90% of the time the rebuttals are so utterly mindless. The "big numbers r always bad" crowd is another one who is mindless and thus annoying. I HATE mindless.)

However, as long as sci fi factions "exist" and you have the bulk of fandom being complete morons (or worse, being morons but thinking they're intelligent.) then such is not going to go away.

[Batman]

Or because a straight top-down approach would be suicidal due to surface guns.

The surface guns didn't score a single kill as it is

Granted, Porkins was a pretty minor character, but that doesn't change the fact that he was shot down by a surface gun.

[SeaTrooper]

Or because a straight top-down approach would be suicidal due to surface guns.

The surface guns didn't score a single kill as it is
Granted, Porkins was a pretty minor character, but that doesn't change the fact that he was shot down by a surface gun.

Speaking of whom, does anyone know what the hell Porkins was working on when he took a TL bolt in the family jewels? Had his EW failed? His shields? Or had the disruption fields that reduced their manoevrability so greatly started affecting his fighters systems? Watching that bit of the DS attack again, it really looks as though he's struggling to reset or configure cockpit controls, rather than trying to fly evasively; and ran out of time!

[fallendragon]

Using the trench and making the turn is not necessary. Just fire the shot straight in from a distance.

The ANH battle only happened the way it did due to pathetic SW technology limitations; it's hardly the only way it could have possibly been done.

ummm are we ignoring the sensor jamming completly? as the movie seems to highly imply jamming while "the essential guide to weapons and tecnology" (i freely admit i am not sure of its canon statement, from what i understand it is c-canon, but i am new and still learning so any help would be more then welcome) flat out states heay jamming.

[Junghalli]

That has nothing to do with the numbers, man. It has everything to do with the people involved. You're complaining that most sci fi debate is basically treated like a sporting event, when you prefer that it be more like a scholarly debate. Which is fine, I prefer it that way too. But to be honest, even some of the more "intellectual" debates can get heated simply because, I suspect, you have men involved, and men interact in certain ways. Adversarial, alpha-male BS often tends to be part of that. especially when you have young men involved.

But numbers have nothing to do with it, as I said. I mean lets assume firepower was COMPLETELY equal between two sides A and B. But Side A happens to have a vastly greater range than Side B. Or maybe more precise/tactical FTL. Or some other huge qualitative/quantitative advantage. It ends up being the same issue as with "firepower".

There's definitely some truth to what you say, but I think it's also true that some debates are inherently more interesting than others; those where the outcome of the scenario is actually in meaningful doubt. I don't think this is really a strange concept; fights where the outcome is in doubt are more interesting than one where you can pretty much call the winner and loser from the word go. Hence the reason that I generally don't find ST vs SW debating very interesting.

Looking back on it, I think the whole "numbers" thing is somewhat beside the point. My point is I think that having the winner and loser basically spelled out for you before the debate even starts is boring.

The problem is, you can keep "equalizing" it as much as you like, but that pretty much nullifies the point of vs debating and you're pretty much making shit up at that point.

Yeah, it would become pretty absurd after a while. The easiest thing is just not to put horribly mismatched sides against each other.

[Azron_Stoma]

Using the trench and making the turn is not necessary. Just fire the shot straight in from a distance.

The ANH battle only happened the way it did due to pathetic SW technology limitations; it's hardly the only way it could have possibly been done.

ummm are we ignoring the sensor jamming completly? as the movie seems to highly imply jamming while "the essential guide to weapons and tecnology" (i freely admit i am not sure of its canon statement, from what i understand it is c-canon, but i am new and still learning so any help would be more then welcome) flat out states heay jamming.

The novelization makes it quite clear that there was jamming so heavy it even affected engine performance.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's a lot of jamming. And if Porkins got nailed by a TL bolt, I doubt he'd have had time to say "I'm hit." I'd agree with SeaTrooper, it looks like he's resetting something, and then get's hit

[Lord Revan]

if I remember the scene from the novel, he either got clipped or something broke down on his fighter making it an easy target and from the EU sources of the 30 or so fighter that flew against the DS1 only handfull (3 IIRC) returned.

[Picard]

Using the trench and making the turn is not necessary. Just fire the shot straight in from a distance.

The ANH battle only happened the way it did due to pathetic SW technology limitations; it's hardly the only way it could have possibly been done.

ummm are we ignoring the sensor jamming completly? as the movie seems to highly imply jamming while "the essential guide to weapons and tecnology" (i freely admit i am not sure of its canon statement, from what i understand it is c-canon, but i am new and still learning so any help would be more then welcome) flat out states heay jamming.

The novelization makes it quite clear that there was jamming so heavy it even affected engine performance.

They were unable to detect any TIE fighters except visually but I do not remember any issues with targeting sensors (except during briefing, when Wedge said that "not even computer could hit it" about 2m wide exhaust port but he did not mention jamming, just that computer would not be able to hit it).

[Imperial528]

Remember that the rebels were using outdated and badly maintained equipment (Maintenance panels were even removed from craft to make fixing it faster because they break so often), so their computers may very well be unable to hit it at the angle they were coming at the port from due to the simple fact that the computer wasn't designed to be up to the task.

[Serafina]

They were unable to detect any TIE fighters except visually but I do not remember any issues with targeting sensors (except during briefing, when Wedge said that "not even computer could hit it" about 2m wide exhaust port but he did not mention jamming, just that computer would not be able to hit it).

Sorry, you fail again.
IIRC, jamming was mentioned in the novelization of ANH, and it was mentioned in RotJ (they were jamming the sensors so that the still active shield was invisible). Simply saying "lalala, i don't remember anything" doesn't cut it.



And you are STILL focussing on the first Death Star. Even if we let the war start during the time of ANH (the earliest G-canon example of the Empire, unless you want to be obtuse and use the very end of RotS) AND the Federation manages to blow up the Death Star (unlikely for reasons i already explained), then they will just build the second Death Star. Unlike the Rebels, the Federation can't attack it before it's finished. The second Death Star was almost finished four years later (2/3 complete after only 6 months, built with a small part of the GEs industrial capacity) - given that the Federation can do squat against the Empires own territory due to their abyssal long-range speed, the Empire can easily wait that long.

Again - even under the most favorable assumptions, G-canon alone kicks your ass right out of the galaxy. You have done nothing to refute that, because there is no sane way to do so.

[Picard]

Sorry, you fail again.
IIRC, jamming was mentioned in the novelization of ANH, and it was mentioned in RotJ (they were jamming the sensors so that the still active shield was invisible). Simply saying "lalala, i don't remember anything" doesn't cut it.

Simple. Epic. Fail.

I was talking about meeting before Death Star I even came near Yavin, when pilots were informed that they will be shooting torpedo at 2 meter wide exhaust port, and Wedge said that not even computer is able to do it (apparently, blasters/turbolasers on fighters should be able to do it, but not torpedoes).

Unlike the Rebels, the Federation can't attack it before it's finished.

And why it can't blow it up after that? From what I remember from both novelization and movie, Rebels flew inside Death Star throught same vent that destroyed DSI (OK, this one was several times wider).

[Kythnos]

And why it can't blow it up after that? From what I remember from both novelization and movie, Rebels flew inside Death Star throught same vent that destroyed DSI (OK, this one was several times wider).

I think you are missing the point the "vent" they used to destroy the seconded Death Star would not have been there when they finished construction. The Empire had replaced the thermal exhaust ports with a new heat exchange device, which no longer allowed a torpedo to travel down to the main reactor or to the "main port" however the failing of the first Death Star worked.
Those massive tunnels would have been filled in with deck-plates and equipment, when finished.