Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

[Skgoa]

I would even go further and say that, if he omitted the "ein", it would have sounded worse. The sentence can only be misunderstood if taken out of context... and even then you would have to be a west german, since the Ossis don't even use "Berliner" for anything but citizens of Berlin.

Actually, no. If he had said "ich bin Berliner", the statement could not have been interpretated in any other way than "i am an inhabitant of Berlin"

So? I never said anything contrary to that, I just commented on how "right" the sentence sounds to me.

Regardless of that, "ich bin EIN berliner" sounds better, because the "ein" transforms it from a statement of fact to a statement of allegiance. The statement "ich bin berliner" sound more like "i am from new york", but he wanted to express allegiance to Berlin instead. So he went with a statement that can be misinterpretated out of context, but expresses what he wanted to say in context.

Yes.

Isn't our language wonderfully complicated?

Yeah, I love all the little things I can do to radically change the symantics of a sentence. Especially the 100% grammatically WRONG things everyone understands, like fake levels of conditionals and weird conjugations.

Plus, it's a great joke, so it's more memorable

Having grown up multicultural, I have always failed to see the humor in making fun of such things.

[Stargate Nerd]

Olrik already dealt with that, a point you failed to address at all. They do not have the need for it, nor do they intend to stay.

Which is why your report mentioned it. Oh wait it didn't. That claim by Olrik is absurd, and in any case the onus is on him to prove it.

Again, since you don't seem to want to address your own report, the authors call the low citizenship rate ASTONISHING. Clearly if it was indeed the case that all Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese and Greeks are 10 year guest workers (as Olrik claims) the report would have mentioned that instead of calling it ASTONISHING.

Even better you claimed that they don't have to become citizens, and YET people from other EU countries have a 48% percent German citizenship rate. What do you know that millions of people don't know?

Apparently, they lumped in Yugoslavians with Eastern Europeans. I was mainly speaking about immigrants from other countries like Poland etc. In any case, they are still far better integrated at the Turks.

No they haven't. Jesus Christ, did you actually read this report? Or did you find it after hasty googling and merely skimmed the Turkish section? The Yugoslavians have their own section with detailed information on them. The Poles, Estonians, Slovaks, Czechs etc, on the other hand are lumped together with Western European nations such as France, the UK, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands & Denmark. Which is a shame because figures on just Eastern Europeans would have been useful in this context.

I call indicators that say they integrate far better as exactly that. Apparently you are unable to read your own data. In every single indicator you listed, the turks fare far worse than every other group, with rates ranging up to three times as worse. You seem to be blind to your own figures.

Terms like far worse are relative, so they're utterly useless in this situation. You claimed that the Turks are the only group that have trouble integrating into German society, your report contradicted this claim, showing that Africans, Yugoslavs, Middle Easterners etc. are are lacking in this or that category.

Again, strawman.

Again your dodging my points. But clearly you're just playing games now.

Fine, instead please address the exodus of Turkish academics/professional Turks from Germany, the rampant Honor Killings and the Enclaves where no one speaks or reads German.

[Thanas]

Olrik already dealt with that, a point you failed to address at all. They do not have the need for it, nor do they intend to stay.

Which is why your report mentioned it. Oh wait it didn't. That claim by Olrik is absurd, and in any case the onus is on him to prove it.

Again, since you don't seem to want to address your own report, the authors call the low citizenship rate ASTONISHING. Clearly if it was indeed the case that all Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese and Greeks are 10 year guest workers (as Olrik claims) the report would have mentioned that instead of calling it ASTONISHING.

Even better you claimed that they don't have to become citizens, and YET people from other EU countries have a 48% percent German citizenship rate. What do you know that millions of people don't know?

Pretty much, actually. I do for instance know that a lot of them emigrated here and intend to stay here because they got work and benefits, and because living in Germany is far more pleasant than in their other countries.

Terms like far worse are relative, so they're utterly useless in this situation. You claimed that the Turks are the only group that have trouble integrating into German society, your report contradicted this claim, showing that Africans, Yugoslavs, Middle Easterners etc. are are lacking in this or that category.

BS. None of them are lagging behind the turks by double-digit margins except in the citizenship indicator. Meanwhile, Turks are
- five times less likely to marry a German compared to southern Europeans
- about half more likely to not have any education compared to southern Europeans (17/30)
- less than half as likely to reach the highest level of school compared to southern Europeans.
How would you describe this situation other than far worse?

Yugoslavs:
- 3 times more likely to marry a german than turks
- half as likely to have no education at all than turks
- Turks only reach about 65% of their proportion of school graduates
How would you describe this situation other than far worse?


Africans:
- marry a German nearly seven times more than the Turks
- 25% have no education at all (30% for Turks) - the only indicator where Turks are even close, but still worse than the others
- have about 160% more high school graduates than the turks

Ethnic Germans Immigrants:
- marry a German more than three times more than the Turks
- Turks are ten times more likely not to have any education
- reach more than double the percentage of highest school graduates

Far-east Asians:
- marry a German over six times more than the Turks
Turks are 5/3s more likely not to have any education
Are more than 3.5 times likely to graduate from the highest school

Middle Eastern:
- marry a German three times more than Turks do
- Have about 2/3s the number of people with no education than the turks
- reach the highest level of school three times more than Turks do

foreigners from Eastern European countries and Western European countries:
- marry a German over 12times more than Turks do
- 10 times less likely to have no education at all
- more than 4.5 times more likely to reach the highest level of school


In every indicator the Turks lag behind besides the citizenship, and only the middle eastern and africans come even close to the no education indicator - and then there is still a eigh or five point gap. In every other indicator, the Turks perform miserably.

Fine, instead please address the exodus of Turkish academics/professional Turks from Germany,

Part of the brain drain that is going on in Germany, not only among the young Turks.

the rampant Honor Killings and the Enclaves where no one speaks or reads German.

Again, strawman. I did not claim honor killings were rampant, I claimed they happened. There have been around five of them that I can remember right at the top of my head. Likewise, I did not claim no one speaks or reads German in the enclaves, I said it is possible not to do so and still get by. Just go to Bremerhaven, you'll know what I mean.

[Stargate Nerd]

Pretty much, actually. I do for instance know that a lot of them emigrated here and intend to stay here because they got work and benefits, and because living in Germany is far more pleasant than in their other countries.

Pretty much what? Who are you even referring to as them? Southern Europeans?(my first two paragraphs deal with them) Eastern Europeans? Western Europeans. (my third paragraph deals with them)

That aside, why in the hell do you expect me to take your word for it? Either provide proof of your assertions or concede the point.

BS. None of them are lagging behind the turks by double-digit margins except in the citizenship indicator. Meanwhile, Turks are
- five times less likely to marry a German compared to southern Europeans
- about half more likely to not have any education compared to southern Europeans (17/30)
- less than half as likely to reach the highest level of school compared to southern Europeans.
How would you describe this situation other than far worse?

Yugoslavs:
- 3 times more likely to marry a german than turks
- half as likely to have no education at all than turks
- Turks only reach about 65% of their proportion of school graduates
How would you describe this situation other than far worse?

Africans:
- marry a German nearly seven times more than the Turks
- 25% have no education at all (30% for Turks) - the only indicator where Turks are even close, but still worse than the others
- have about 160% more high school graduates than the turks

Ethnic Germans Immigrants:
- marry a German more than three times more than the Turks
- Turks are ten times more likely not to have any education
- reach more than double the percentage of highest school graduates

Far-east Asians:
- marry a German over six times more than the Turks
Turks are 5/3s more likely not to have any education
Are more than 3.5 times likely to graduate from the highest school

Middle Eastern:
- marry a German three times more than Turks do
- Have about 2/3s the number of people with no education than the turks
- reach the highest level of school three times more than Turks do

foreigners from Eastern European countries and Western European countries:
- marry a German over 12times more than Turks do
- 10 times less likely to have no education at all
- more than 4.5 times more likely to reach the highest level of school

I'd describe it as worse, which I have already done. Do you keep insisting on using relative terms and fancy statistics because it masks the fact that your claims are either wrong or at the very least fancifully exaggerated? Let me give you a tip, 3% is three times 1% and yet the real difference between them is negligible.

But hey, two can play that game, so you say other foreigners are integrated just fine? Well lets find out using your measures and have some fun all the while.

Did you know that, Africans are 25 times as likely as Germans do drop out of school? Yugoslavs 14 times as likely? Far East Asians 18 times as likely? Southern Europeans 17 times as likely? Or that Germans are almost twice as likely to be University grads, than Yugoslavs? And almost 1.5 times as likely as Southern Europeans and Ethnic Germans immigrants?

In every indicator the Turks lag behind besides the citizenship, and only the middle eastern and africans come even close to the no education indicator - and then there is still a eigh or five point gap. In every other indicator, the Turks perform miserably.

Actually everyone is doing miserably in the high school dropout rate except, the rest of EU25 & Ethnic German immigrants group.

And lets not forget that the report actually has 15 indicators, not 4. And in 10 of them another group rather than Turks is rated worst. With 1 tie. But you already knew that didn't ya, might not have fit into your narrative that well though huh?!

Part of the brain drain that is going on in Germany, not only among the young Turks.

You will of course prove that up to 10% of young Yugoslav, Southern European, Far East Asian, African, Middle Eastern etc. academics/professionals are leaving Germany each year.

And while you're at it, I would also be delighted to find out if those departures are partially if not wholly influenced by the racism experienced in Germany?
http://sueddeutsche.de/karriere/auswand ... .1014005-2

Again, strawman. I did not claim honor killings were rampant, I claimed they happened. There have been around five of them that I can remember right at the top of my head. Likewise, I did not claim no one speaks or reads German in the enclaves, I said it is possible not to do so and still get by.

5 incidents, among a population of 2.8 million dispersed over several years. If we assumed that 5 people were involved in each 5 incidents, you get 25 people total. 25 people out of 2.8 million is 0.0001%. Mentioning this shit alone seems like an attempt at character assassination & slander, but I'm sure you're not that heinous a person.
You were just justifying anti-Turkish rhetoric with them. Nothing shady here, it's just more convenient this way right?

But you were using the enclaves as proof that Turks don't speak German. So which is it? They choose not to? They don't need to? Or they can't?

Just go to Bremerhaven, you'll know what I mean.

Yes this seems likely, let me buy a $1,000 airplane ticket and get on a 9 hour flight to iverify your claims.

--------------------

Oh as an aside, you mentioned the supposedly high rate of unemployment among Turks several times, resulting from their lack of education. But surprise, the very report you posted again contradicts you showing that 23% of Turks, 26% among Africans, 35% among Middle Easterners are unemployed. The Yugoslavs and Far East Asians aren't doing too much better at 19% and 17% respectively. Clearly the higher rate of education among non-Turks helps them splendidly when it comes to unemployment.

Even the Southern Europeans who according to you and Olrik are only in Germany because they're gonna work temporarily and bounce have a unemployment rate of 14%. If you're unemployed why not just return to your warm weather home country? Certainly throws salt in another one of your baseless claims.

[Thanas]

I've about had it with your nitpicking. Yes, in some indicators the turks are better. However, that does not change the overall picture, that they, when viewed as a whole, are just failing miserably.



You might argue that the Africans and Yugoslavians are close, fine, but every other group has a much higher success rate overall. So unless you got data that disproves this conclusion, concede the point or shut up.

You might try to argue there is no real difference between the Turks and the other groups - so explain why there is a 2 point difference on the final score.

And lets not forget that the report actually has 15 indicators, not 4. And in 10 of them another group rather than Turks is rated worst. With 1 tie. But you already knew that didn't ya, might not have fit into your narrative that well though huh?!

Oh, I knew it, it is just once more pointless nitpicking because almost every other group has other indicators to offset that, the Turks do not.

You will of course prove that up to 10% of young Yugoslav, Southern European, Far East Asian, African, Middle Eastern etc. academics/professionals are leaving Germany each year.

I'll do you one better - 125.000 Germans are leaving Germany each year, for a variety of reasons. Link. Every seventh student in Germany who gets a doctoral degree decides to leave for the USA. source

Compared to that, your 34.800 emigrants are a bit small fish, especially considering that 26.600 Turkish citizens emigrated to Germany in the same time.

Yes, they are leaving Germany. So are other scores of motivated Germans themselves. I find it pretty hard to believe racism is the reason for that or for the Turks leaving home - I bet the economic reasons are another - but I am also not discounting racism, which undoubtedly exists. Yet other people made it despite it, why can't the Turks?


The rest of your quibbling however cannot distract from one fundamental fact: Turks are at the bottom and they show no indications of getting out of it.

[Stargate Nerd]

You’ve about had it huh? If anyone has about had it it's me. You have made claim after claim after claim in this thread.
And when disproven by your very own report or pressed to provide proof on it by me, you have ignored my requests and either changed your argument or failed to respond to entire paragraphs, omitting them in your replies.

Here's a quick summary.

- Low citizenship rate among Southern Europeans and your alleged reasons. When pressed to prove these assertions you balked and dropped it from your reply. You also failed to explain why the report called these numbers astonishing.

- You claimed that Turks have been here much longer than other groups. You failed to prove this assertion.

- High unemployment among Turks due to a lack of education. This claim can be found on page one. When I pointed out that your report contradicts you, you failed to reply to this entirely.

- The enclaves. Your argument went from many Turks not being able to speak German because they live in Enclaves, to not Turks choosing not to speak German because the Enclaves enable them to. When asked to address this, you again omitted this from your reply.

- The honor killings. You mentioned Honor Killings on page one to illustrate how Integration is not working with Turks giving it the appearance of being a common occurrence. Then you said you know about 5 of them. When I showed you what a ridiculously low number that is, you again failed to respond.

- You failed to provide any proof for this

I do for instance know that a lot of them emigrated here and intend to stay here because they got work and benefits, and because living in Germany is far more pleasant than in their other countries.

Either concede these points or refute them.

I've about had it with your nitpicking. Yes, in some indicators the turks are better. However, that does not change the overall picture, that they, when viewed as a whole, are just failing miserably. You might argue that the Africans and Yugoslavians are close, fine, but every other group has a much higher success rate overall. So unless you got data that disproves this conclusion, concede the point or shut up.

You might try to argue there is no real difference between the Turks and the other groups - so explain why there is a 2 point difference on the final score.

Oh, I knew it, it is just once more pointless nitpicking because almost every other group has other indicators to offset that, the Turks do not.

It’s not nitpicking if a deeper look into the numbers show that are immigrant groups clearly are having problems integrating into German society as well. As I have shown you before, they do. In 10 out of 14 categories Turks are not even the worst offender.

And I find it hilarious that you keep insisting that I acknowledge that Turks are miserably integrated or that they are doing worse than other groups. But I have not denied the former and have acknowledged the latter. You on the other hand have failed to prove that only Turks represent a problem, insisting instead to use fancy statistics that mislead the raw numbers to give bolster your argument. The same fancy methods I then used to disprove your assertion that all other groups are integrating just fine.

But hey, were making progress, at least you admitted that Yugoslavs and Africans aren't doing much better, a clear departure from what you claimed earlier.

I'll do you one better - 125.000 Germans are leaving Germany each year, for a variety of reasons. Link. Every seventh student in Germany who gets a doctoral degree decides to leave for the USA. source

Compared to that, your 34.800 emigrants are a bit small fish, especially considering that 26.600 Turkish citizens emigrated to Germany in the same time.

Yes, they are leaving Germany. So are other scores of motivated Germans themselves. I find it pretty hard to believe racism is the reason for that or for the Turks leaving home - I bet the economic reasons are another - but I am also not discounting racism, which undoubtedly exists. Yet other people made it despite it, why can't the Turks?

That's not doing me one better. That's hilariously failing at whatever it was you were trying to do. Let me break it down, so you understand why:

1. I asked for foreigner groups, so that we can compare what effect their brain drain has on the fancy integration indicators. How does 125k Germans leaving every year help with this genius?

2. That number is comically low. According to the CIA factbook, Germany has a population of ~82 million. The report says that 15 million of those are foreigners. Which leaves about 67 million Germans. Again according to the report 38% of Germans have university Degrees. That's about 25.46 million. According to your link, 155k Germans left Germany in the last year. It doesn't mention whether these are just Germans or if the number includes foreigner groups, but for you benefit we'll assume its the former. In any case, 155k is 0.63% of 25.46 million. That's not even one percent Thanas. The 40k figure for Turks meanwhile represent up to 10% of educated Turks in Germany. That's over a ten times as much.

3. I don't see how 26,600 Turks moving to Germany helps you. If anything it helps me because those are most likely uneducated labourers, thus further damaging the integration indicators for the Turkish population.

4. You did not prove that up to 10% of young Yugoslav, Southern European, Far East Asian, African, Middle Eastern etc. academics/professionals are leaving Germany each year.

As for the Racism bit undoubtedly some are leaving for economic reasons while others are fed up with racism.

And I would even suggest that Turks are facing much more Racism than other groups in Germany. "We don't have a foreigner problem, we have a Turk problem" ring a bell? But since I don't have any solid proof of this at the moment, I will in fact not make this claim at the moment.

The rest of your quibbling however cannot distract from one fundamental fact: Turks are at the bottom and they show no indications of getting out of it.

No the "quibbling", as you call my requests to back up your claims, might not distract from Turks being badly integrated that's not the intention behind it. But it's excellent for showing how your reasons for why Germans don't accept Turks (unemployment) are bullshit stereotypes. It's also immensely useful to see you make ridiculous claims that you cannot prove and instead dodge my request to do so, by calling them quibbling.

[Thanas]

You’ve about had it huh? If anyone has about had it it's me. You have made claim after claim after claim in this thread.
And when disproven by your very own report or pressed to provide proof on it by me, you have ignored my requests and either changed your argument or failed to respond to entire paragraphs, omitting them in your replies.

Here's a quick summary.

- Low citizenship rate among Southern Europeans and your alleged reasons. When pressed to prove these assertions you balked and dropped it from your reply. You also failed to explain why the report called these numbers astonishing.

They are astonishing because they simply are and should not be prevalent seeing how obviously better integrated the people are. The explanation of course, which you chose to ignore, is of course the EU citizenship, which - as Olrik has said several times - eliminates the need for one.

- You claimed that Turks have been here much longer than other groups. You failed to prove this assertion.

I am sorry, I did not think I would need to explain to you the fall of the Iron curtain and the EU 25 expansion. Any of that ring a bell?

- High unemployment among Turks due to a lack of education. This claim can be found on page one. When I pointed out that your report contradicts you, you failed to reply to this entirely.

It actually does not, because you nitpicked one group which has the outlier of high education and low employment. How that is supposed to disprove the correlation in the other groups is a bit unclear and you have not yet explained how that is. Do you think qualifications are unimportant? Because that is the only reason this happened.

- The enclaves. Your argument went from many Turks not being able to speak German because they live in Enclaves, to not Turks choosing not to speak German because the Enclaves enable them to. When asked to address this, you again omitted this from your reply.

Zeit online, which cites a few studies as well.

- The honor killings. You mentioned Honor Killings on page one to illustrate how Integration is not working with Turks giving it the appearance of being a common occurrence.

Bullshit. I never claimed they were a common occurrence, I said they were an indicator that integration is not working.

Then you said you know about 5 of them. When I showed you what a ridiculously low number that is, you again failed to respond.

Actually, the number is 53 (must have forgotten the 3).

It’s not nitpicking if a deeper look into the numbers show that are immigrant groups clearly are having problems integrating into German society as well. As I have shown you before, they do. In 10 out of 14 categories Turks are not even the worst offender.

Again with this 10 out of 14. That number is meaningless because the real problem is shown in the combined score - they utterly suck.

That's not doing me one better. That's hilariously failing at whatever it was you were trying to do. Let me break it down, so you understand why:

1. I asked for foreigner groups, so that we can compare what effect their brain drain has on the fancy integration indicators.

Then compile a statistic, because it does not exist.

How does 125k Germans leaving every year help with this genius?

It t shows they are however not alone in leaving.

2. That number is comically low. According to the CIA factbook, Germany has a population of ~82 million. The report says that 15 million of those are foreigners. Which leaves about 67 million Germans. Again according to the report 38% of Germans have university Degrees. That's about 25.46 million. According to your link, 155k Germans left Germany in the last year. It doesn't mention whether these are just Germans or if the number includes foreigner groups, but for you benefit we'll assume its the former. In any case, 155k is 0.63% of 25.46 million. That's not even one percent Thanas. The 40k figure for Turks meanwhile represent up to 10% of educated Turks in Germany. That's over a ten times as much.

Nice going there, idiot, for you just took maximum percentages and neglecting to see that those who are leave are predominantly young. So the real percentage of young academics etc is much higher than your model suggests. Case in point - my article specifically mentioned one in seven people with postgraduate degrees leaves for the USA.

3. I don't see how 26,600 Turks moving to Germany helps you. If anything it helps me because those are most likely uneducated labourers, thus further damaging the integration indicators for the Turkish population.

Now who is making assumptions?

4. You did not prove that up to 10% of young Yugoslav, Southern European, Far East Asian, African, Middle Eastern etc. academics/professionals are leaving Germany each year.

How can I? Statistics don't exist to my knowledge. However, in abscence of further statistics, I see no reason to assume they would not leave as much as Germans do.

As for the Racism bit undoubtedly some are leaving for economic reasons while others are fed up with racism.

Yes, but until one establishes percentages with regards to the motivation etc, one cannot claim they leave due to one and the other.

And I would even suggest that Turks are facing much more Racism than other groups in Germany. "We don't have a foreigner problem, we have a Turk problem" ring a bell? But since I don't have any solid proof of this at the moment, I will in fact not make this claim at the moment.

So why bring it up in the first place? BTW, I'd like to know who said that in what context.

No the "quibbling", as you call my requests to back up your claims, might not distract from Turks being badly integrated that's not the intention behind it. But it's excellent for showing how your reasons for why Germans don't accept Turks (unemployment) are bullshit stereotypes.

Righto, because the others factors cannot have anything to do with it, right.

[Stargate Nerd]

They are astonishing because they simply are and should not be prevalent seeing how obviously better integrated the people are. The explanation of course, which you chose to ignore, is of course the EU citizenship, which - as Olrik has said several times - eliminates the need for one.

See there you go with pulling shit out of your ass again. Your claims are baseless without proof and don't even make sense. If EU membership precluded the need for German citizenship, then the EU25 groups would not have more than twice the naturalization rate at 48%.

I am sorry, I did not think I would need to explain to you the fall of the Iron curtain and the EU 25 expansion. Any of that ring a bell?

I don't care for your history lesson, take it up with the authors of a report which DIRECTLY states that Yugoslavs have been here since the 60s.

Also you keep harping about non-Yugoslav Eastern Europeans , but the report doesn't even provide separate numbers for them. So there's another assumption without anything to back it up on your part.

It actually does not, because you nitpicked one group which has the outlier of high education and low employment. How that is supposed to disprove the correlation in the other groups is a bit unclear and you have not yet explained how that is. Do you think qualifications are unimportant? Because that is the only reason this happened.

Stop lying. I actually gave numbers for 4 different groups. All of which have a higher university education indicator, with one having much higher unemployment rates, another having slightly higher unemployment rates and the last two having slightly lower unemployment rates. 4 out of 8 groups is not an outlier by any means.

Also don't put words in my mouth. You were the one giving not only the impression that Turks tend to be unemployed the most (they're not) and that this is caused by a low education level. (the unemployment figures of groups with much higher education levels contradicts your ridiculous claim).

So to recap, you made bold statement without proof, I provided evidence to the contrary. Your move.

Zeit online, which cites a few studies as well.

That article says nothing about whether or not the Turks in them can't speak German because they live there (your original claim) or choose not to speak German (your backtracked claim). If you can't find proof for your assertion, then concede the point.

The only interesting part about it is the paragraph mentioning German ethnic ghettos in Chicago. So your own article even casts doubt on whether or not ethnic Ghettos truly are a hindrance to integrating into mainstream society.

Bullshit. I never claimed they were a common occurrence, I said they were an indicator that integration is not working.

Actually, the number is 53 (must have forgotten the 3).

Statistical insignificances are no way to prove a point. And lol @ 53. So it's 0.001% instead of 0.0001%. Run to the hills. What's the number of German fundamentalist Christians? If it was 0.001% the population, would that mean that Germans can't come to terms with reason and science? (which of course is ridiculous but I'm merely using your thought patterns here)

Again with this 10 out of 14. That number is meaningless because the real problem is shown in the combined score - they utterly suck.

So? Can you read? What are you trying to prove to me? The score may be low, but that's not the debate here. You claimed in this thread, that everything would be peachy if not for those pesky Turks. The Yugoslav score is 3.2, only 0.8 better than the Turkish score. The German score is 6.1 which means that the Turkish score is ~39% of that and the Yugoslav score is ~52%. Is 52% within the German score perfect integration to you?

Then compile a statistic, because it does not exist.

Wrong answer. You made the claim, you provide the proof. If you can't, concede.

It t shows they are however not alone in leaving.

No one claimed that only Turks leave. The claim was that a much higher percentage of educated Turks leave. And your 155k figure proves exactly that.

Nice going there, idiot, for you just took maximum percentages and neglecting to see that those who are leave are predominantly young. So the real percentage of young academics etc is much higher than your model suggests. Case in point - my article specifically mentioned one in seven people with postgraduate degrees leaves for the USA.

God you're so obtuse. What is the significance of whether the educated who leave are young or old? Your report makes no such distinction. What is your point here? Educated Turks leaving Germany in much higher proportions than other groups is influencing the education indicator. Young or old doesn't matter.

Also me taking maximum percentages is for the following reason. Neither Spiegel.de nor the source you posted, give an exact percentage for educated individuals among those who leave. Your source say that many of the Germans leaving are educated and Spiegel says that that vast majority of Turks leaving are educated. These terms are somewhat relative and can't be translated into percentages precisely.

And since vast majority must be a higher percentage than many, this is actually in your interest since it skews the percentages in your direction. Not that it did you any good though.

Now who is making assumptions?

It's called Heiratmigration which makes up a large share of current Turkish immigration into Germany. The vast majority of whom are young uneducated men and women who marry a partner in Germany and come to Germany for a better life. The only concrete numbers I could find are from 2004.

Allein 2004 wanderten laut dem Bundesamt für Migration und Flüchtlinge über 22.000 volljährige Männer und Frauen aus der Türkei ein - ein Großteil davon durch Ehegattennachzug.

Third Paragraph. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 83,00.html

How can I? Statistics don't exist to my knowledge. However, in abscence of further statistics, I see no reason to assume they would not leave as much as Germans do.

If you can't back it up, you concede the point. Or do the research yourself. I don't care. Don't make claims you cannot backup.

Also if they leave as much as Germans, it doesn't help you because Germans leave at a very, very low rate of 0.63%.

Yes, but until one establishes percentages with regards to the motivation etc, one cannot claim they leave due to one and the other.

Agreed.

So why bring it up in the first place? BTW, I'd like to know who said that in what context.

Just to illustrate a point. Anecdotal evidence that's not verifiable is useless.

Also I don't know who the first person to say that was. I just mentioned it because it has been used in Germany as an attack on Turks for a while now.
Maybe this'll help: http://www.taz.de/1/archiv/archiv/?dig=2002/09/23/a0294

Righto, because the others factors cannot have anything to do with it, right.

That's a mighty cryptic reply. What factor having to do with what?

[hongi]

Interesting thing I read on someone's livejournal.

Today in gobsmacking irony

Through a discussion in a forum I frequent, I was just recently made aware of the opinion piece by German banker Thilo Sarrazin which appeared the 24 Aug issue of Bild magazine. (German original here, English translation here.) Here's the paragraph that pulled me up short:

Diskriminierung scheidet als Grund für diese mangelhaften Erfolge der muslimischen Migranten aus, denn Migrantengruppen aus Fernost oder Indien, die eher noch fremdartiger aussehen als Türken und Araber, schneiden teilweise sogar besser ab als die Deutschen.

("Discrimination as a cause for this lack of success of the Muslim immigrants can be excluded, as groups of migrants from the Far East or India, whose appearance is even more exotic than that of the Turks and Arabs, in some cases even surpass the Germans.")

You may have been saying to yourselves earlier, "Hmm, 'Sarrazin'--that doesn't sound like a very German name." And it isn't, etymologically-speaking. His ancestors were among those Huguenots who were given refuge in Prussia. Yes, you got that: The same man who can't think of any grounds for discrimination besides outward appearance is only a German citizen because his ancestors were discriminated against on the basis of their religion.

He concludes his piece with this crotchety little tirade:

Ich möchte, dass auch meine Urenkel in 100 Jahren noch in Deutschlandleben können, wenn sie dies wollen. Ich möchte nicht, dass das Land meiner Enkel und Urenkel zu großen Teilen muslimisch ist, dass dort über weite Strecken türkisch und arabisch gesprochen wird, die Frauen ein Kopftuch tragen und der Tagesrhythmus vom Ruf der Muezzine bestimmt wird. Wenn ich das erleben will, kann ich eine Urlaubsreise ins Morgenland buchen.

("I would like my great grandchildren 100 years from now still to be able to live in Germany — if they want to. I do not desire that the land of my grandchildren and great-grandchildren be largely Muslim, that Turkish and Arabic be spoken in broad swathes, that women should wear headscarves, and the daily rhythm be determined by the prayer call of the muezzin. If I want to experience that, I can book a vacation to the Orient.")

I'm sure somewhere there's a similar paragraph written by a 17th or 18th-century German intellectual dismayed by the rampant Frenchification of German society at the time, and it's a damn shame I don't have the patience to go searching for it.

[Thanas]

See there you go with pulling shit out of your ass again. Your claims are baseless without proof and don't even make sense. If EU membership precluded the need for German citizenship, then the EU25 groups would not have more than twice the naturalization rate at 48%.

The two are not mutually exclusive, you know. One might not feel the need to get a passport and do it anyway for the sake of integration. BTW, you still have not made an explanation that makes sense for why Turks would not want to seek a German passport. What other reason is there besides either not feeling the need for one or a refusal to integrate?

I don't care for your history lesson, take it up with the authors of a report which DIRECTLY states that Yugoslavs have been here since the 60s.

Also you keep harping about non-Yugoslav Eastern Europeans , but the report doesn't even provide separate numbers for them. So there's another assumption without anything to back it up on your part.

Their numbers are reflected in the EU25, as the states that are now members of the EU are also the ones migration is coming from.
In any case, here are the total numbers of them: Link.

Stop lying. I actually gave numbers for 4 different groups. All of which have a higher university education indicator, with one having much higher unemployment rates, another having slightly higher unemployment rates and the last two having slightly lower unemployment rates. 4 out of 8 groups is not an outlier by any means.

And again, their scores are irrelevant as the final result is still bad. So keep this up, but again, it is not going to change the point that the turks are the worst in education and the third-worst in unemployment, as well as the worst-integrated overall.

Also don't put words in my mouth. You were the one giving not only the impression that Turks tend to be unemployed the most (they're not)

No, they are just the third most unemployed in percentages, but I still maintain they are the most unemployed in numbers.

and that this is caused by a low education level. (the unemployment figures of groups with much higher education levels contradicts your ridiculous claim).

Bullshit. You honestly claim not having any schooling will not have the impact on their job chances and that it is not a reason why they are unemployed? Yes, I know that immigrants with an education still suffer a competition advantage against Germans. However, I am not as insane as you to claim that it is not a reason they are unemployed. BTW, you will not that all the groups with little education have also high unemployment numbers.

Zeit online, which cites a few studies as well.

That article says nothing about whether or not the Turks in them can't speak German because they live there (your original claim) or choose not to speak German (your backtracked claim). If you can't find proof for your assertion, then concede the point.

So....what is your explanation why they don't speak German other than ignorance - and no desire/willingness to change that - or a cultural choice not to use their knowledge in German? If you are of the opinion that they do all speak German, provide evidence.

The only interesting part about it is the paragraph mentioning German ethnic ghettos in Chicago. So your own article even casts doubt on whether or not ethnic Ghettos truly are a hindrance to integrating into mainstream society.

You apparently did not know that German ghettos etc. were oftentimes a hindrance in integration (In New York, the USA eventually even used the army against them) - and it was only after the first world war that they started to learn English etc. The Germans in the USA, while prosperous, were not that well integrated.

Statistical insignificances are no way to prove a point. And lol @ 53. So it's 0.001% instead of 0.0001%. Run to the hills. What's the number of German fundamentalist Christians? If it was 0.001% the population, would that mean that Germans can't come to terms with reason and science? (which of course is ridiculous but I'm merely using your thought patterns here)

As soon as you show me honor killings among that group, I am quite willing to concede that they are a problem as well. BTW, you apparently missed my point (again). They are an indicator for trouble - with a patriarchal society. Honor killings are just the top of the iceberg, domestic violence etc are a problem as well. And no, Turks are not the only ones with patriarchal societies, before you start that tangent again. However, they are currently the largest group in Germany with a background in those societies.

Spiegel, and an interview about the patriarchic societies. Link

So? Can you read? What are you trying to prove to me? The score may be low, but that's not the debate here. You claimed in this thread, that everything would be peachy if not for those pesky Turks. The Yugoslav score is 3.2, only 0.8 better than the Turkish score. The German score is 6.1 which means that the Turkish score is ~39% of that and the Yugoslav score is ~52%. Is 52% within the German score perfect integration to you?

No, and I have several times said that immigration is utterly messed up in Germany. However, yes, in my opinion, 52 is a far better result than 39%, As the turks are by far the largest group - and also the largest problem - they are also the biggest problem we have with our integration right now. Is that so hard for you to grasp? BTW, if the Turks were not there, the Yugoslavs would be mainly the problem - but right now, they are second worst and second biggest problem, not the biggest problem we have.

Oh, btw, I have already stated in the past that we need to spend more on integration and also need to be far more demanding in the results, so before you turn this into a "U R AGAINST TURKS ONLY" rant, let me stop you right there.

Then compile a statistic, because it does not exist.

Wrong answer. You made the claim, you provide the proof. If you can't, concede.

You were the one making the claim that the Turkish exodus is far worse compared to that of other groups. So it actually is up to you to prove that point.

God you're so obtuse. What is the significance of whether the educated who leave are young or old? Your report makes no such distinction. What is your point here? Educated Turks leaving Germany in much higher proportions than other groups is influencing the education indicator. Young or old doesn't matter.

It is not really influencing the education indicator, as they would still be counted on whether they had completed high school and/or university.

Also me taking maximum percentages is for the following reason. Neither Spiegel.de nor the source you posted, give an exact percentage for educated individuals among those who leave. Your source say that many of the Germans leaving are educated and Spiegel says that that vast majority of Turks leaving are educated. These terms are somewhat relative and can't be translated into percentages precisely.

So again, all you have is a vague interpretation but no real numbers. Show them, please.

And since vast majority must be a higher percentage than many, this is actually in your interest since it skews the percentages in your direction. Not that it did you any good though.

So, as you are the one who is claimign that the percentages of educated turks leaving is higher than the percentages of German university graduates leaving, I think you are the one who actually has to provide the numbers on that one, methinks.

It's called Heiratmigration which makes up a large share of current Turkish immigration into Germany. The vast majority of whom are young uneducated men and women who marry a partner in Germany and come to Germany for a better life. The only concrete numbers I could find are from 2004.

Allein 2004 wanderten laut dem Bundesamt für Migration und Flüchtlinge über 22.000 volljährige Männer und Frauen aus der Türkei ein - ein Großteil davon durch Ehegattennachzug.

Third Paragraph. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 83,00.html

That actually does not show whether they are educated or not. I know for example that the husband of my friend Hülya has a universtiy degree.

If you can't back it up, you concede the point. Or do the research yourself. I don't care. Don't make claims you cannot backup.

Also if they leave as much as Germans, it doesn't help you because Germans leave at a very, very low rate of 0.63%.

Again with the universal percentages here. What is the universal percentage of all Turks who leave Germany in comparison?

Yes, but until one establishes percentages with regards to the motivation etc, one cannot claim they leave due to one and the other.

Agreed.

Ok. So we agree here that the turkish emigrants leave Germany due to a variety of reasons including job offers, a competition advantage on the turkish market due to bilingualism, failed integration in Germany, less jobs in Germany and racism experienced by themselves?

So why bring it up in the first place? BTW, I'd like to know who said that in what context.

Just to illustrate a point. Anecdotal evidence that's not verifiable is useless.

Also I don't know who the first person to say that was. I just mentioned it because it has been used in Germany as an attack on Turks for a while now.
Maybe this'll help: http://www.taz.de/1/archiv/archiv/?dig=2002/09/23/a0294

Wouldn't be surprised if it was an idiot from the CSU who said that, they usually have a near-monopoily on stupid statements. That said, I am pretty sure Wehler's comment was taken out of context - the guy is anything if not a racist.

That said, the statement is indefensible.

Righto, because the others factors cannot have anything to do with it, right.

That's a mighty cryptic reply. What factor having to do with what?[/quote]

The stuff we discussed above. I'll just drop that because it is pretty much the same as said above.

[Thanas]

Interesting thing I read on someone's livejournal.

Sarrazin is an idiot. Nothing more to say.

[ArmorPierce]

Here in the US, people strike up casual conversations with total strangers. This is especially prevalent when traveling. Whether a bus going across town or a plane going across a continent, Americans tend to talk to the people next to them. And frequently these conversations can be highly personal in nature, or political or otherwise opening a potential for debate. When I used to travel on Amtrak in the US the lounge car was the social center - total strangers talking, playing cards, some guy with a guitar shows up and suddenly it's an impromptu sing-a-long. Americans think nothing of striking up a conversation with someone they just met, and indeed, many would think it rude NOT to make such small talk. Heck, back in the Amtrak days people who brought their lunch/dinner with them (common in coach) would start trading food, like kids at a lunch hour in school.

I wouldn't say here in the US to refer to all of the US. Here in the Jersey/New York area, people sooner spit on you than strike up a conversation with you as a total stranger. Trains are pretty silent except for the kids that got in and they all know each other already. If someone trys to strike up a random conversation they think you are crazy or someone trying to hustle or rob them. Say hi or smile at someone and people are usually going to just walk by you looking forward and ignore you. I've been told that in other states it's different but anything else would be alien to me.

[Stargate Nerd]

The two are not mutually exclusive, you know. One might not feel the need to get a passport and do it anyway for the sake of integration. BTW, you still have not made an explanation that makes sense for why Turks would not want to seek a German passport. What other reason is there besides either not feeling the need for one or a refusal to integrate?

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Is there some sort of communication barrier that we fail to cross here?

My point is the following:
You claimed that as EU citizens, Southern Europeans don't need to apply for German citizenship. Now all in itself, this doesn't sound all that unreasonable (except for the part where they cannot vote in General elections). Unfortunately for you we have another group compromising Western and Eastern Europeans, who seem to have a much higher naturalization rate than Southern Europeans, even though they too are EU citizens. So now we can either conclude that your argument doesn't hold water or we have to determine what the difference between the two groups is.

Also I don't think I need to give any reason for why 68% of Turks aren't seeking German citizenship. If you recall I didn't question or try to excuse the percentages in the report. You on the other hand did, which is why I asked for proof. So since I made no assertion or claim, I have no obligation to prove any assertion or claim.

But just to humor you, I would think that many don't seek German citizenship because a) they want to eventually return (1st gen) or because they don't think there's a future for them in Germany (later gens.). I also suspect that some also have also developed a sense of cognitive dissonance towards Germany. But this is all speculation and I have no proof or any numbers to back it up.

Their numbers are reflected in the EU25, as the states that are now members of the EU are also the ones migration is coming from.
In any case, here are the total numbers of them: Link.

I know that their numbers are reflected in the EU25 group. But that group includes Western Europe. There is no "pure" Eastern European data in the report.

Also I don't see why you posted that graphic. It doesn't differentiate between Ethnic Germans and Ethnic Foreigners, nor does it provide any integration data for non-German Eastern Europeans.

And again, their scores are irrelevant as the final result is still bad. So keep this up, but again, it is not going to change the point that the turks are the worst in education and the third-worst in unemployment, as well as the worst-integrated overall.

It doesn't need to change. The whole point is that other groups are also having problems integrating even if they're faring better.

No, they are just the third most unemployed in percentages, but I still maintain they are the most unemployed in numbers.

LOL. Hurray for Captain Obvious. Even if the unemployment rate for Turks was the lowest at 16%, the total number of unemployed Turks would still be the highest. It's because Turks compromise the biggest group.

Bullshit. You honestly claim not having any schooling will not have the impact on their job chances and that it is not a reason why they are unemployed? Yes, I know that immigrants with an education still suffer a competition advantage against Germans. However, I am not as insane as you to claim that it is not a reason they are unemployed.

I'm not making any claims. You're making the claims and failing to back them up. All I am doing is telling you that the report disagrees with you. Don't shoot the messenger.

BTW, you will not that all the groups with little education have also high unemployment numbers.

Yeah ... it's not that simple. What's the threshold for high btw?

Group - University Degree rate - Unemployment rate
Far East - 48 - 17
Southern Europe - 28 - 14
Near East - 38 - 35
Yugoslavia - 20 - 19
Africans - 37 - 26
Turks - 14 - 23

As you can see, people from the Far East who are better educated than Germans themselves, have 17% unemployment, higher than the Southern Europeans and barely below Yugoslavs who aren't even half as good educated. Let's not even get into the Near East group, because the numbers speak for themselves.

So....what is your explanation why they don't speak German other than ignorance - and no desire/willingness to change that - or a cultural choice not to use their knowledge in German? If you are of the opinion that they do all speak German, provide evidence.

Nice try. But I'm not gonna let you turn the tables. You made a claim and then you modified that claim. You didn't provide evidence for either claim. And now you can't even even decide which of your claims is right.

But let me spur your memory: When someone in this thread told you that language skills improve with following generations, you claimed that this is wrong because Turks live in Ghettos as they don't speak German. You further claimed that the kids won't speak German because they grow up in the Ghettos.
Later you modified this claim to they choose not to speak German because they live in Ghettos. But then if they already speak German, but choose not to, then the whole argument is moot. So which is it?

You apparently did not know that German ghettos etc. were oftentimes a hindrance in integration (In New York, the USA eventually even used the army against them) - and it was only after the first world war that they started to learn English etc. The Germans in the USA, while prosperous, were not that well integrated.

Heh, all I know is that everyone eventually integrated despite the Ghettos over time. So what's your point again?

As soon as you show me honor killings among that group, I am quite willing to concede that they are a problem as well. BTW, you apparently missed my point (again). They are an indicator for trouble - with a patriarchal society. Honor killings are just the top of the iceberg, domestic violence etc are a problem as well. And no, Turks are not the only ones with patriarchal societies, before you start that tangent again. However, they are currently the largest group in Germany with a background in those societies.

No, actually the problem is that you try to judge the entire Turkish community by the actions of a tiny minority. Which is why I brought up the fundamentalist Christians. lol @ you turning it into a whose worse, Christians or Muslims contest.

Honor Killings are so rare that they are basically useless when measuring the integration of 2.8 million Turks.

No, and I have several times said that immigration is utterly messed up in Germany. However, yes, in my opinion, 52 is a far better result than 39%, As the turks are by far the largest group - and also the largest problem - they are also the biggest problem we have with our integration right now. Is that so hard for you to grasp? BTW, if the Turks were not there, the Yugoslavs would be mainly the problem - but right now, they are second worst and second biggest problem, not the biggest problem we have.

See now you make me smile. This is all I wanted to hear, because you sang a different tune before.

You were the one making the claim that the Turkish exodus is far worse compared to that of other groups. So it actually is up to you to prove that point.

I actually haven't made that claim explicitly. I was just wondering how the Exodus of educated Turks was affecting the indicators. You were the ones dismissing it, saying that it was no different from other people leaving.

But to humor you, the only reason I brought this up is because a publication like Spiegel actually bothered to make an article about it. I don't see a single German publication pointing out an alarming trend of up to 10% of educated Yugoslaves, Southern Europeans etc. leaving Germany each year.

It is not really influencing the education indicator, as they would still be counted on whether they had completed high school and/or university.

Actually there's two education indicators. One is "Schueler in der gymnasialen Ueberstufe" and the other is "Hochschulreife".
I'm arguing that the latter could be slightly higher, if not for the exodus. And if you notice, the in the former indicator Turks are doing better in relation to other groups, than in the "Hochschulreife" indicator. So yes they are still counted.

So again, all you have is a vague interpretation but no real numbers. Show them, please.

Show you what? The vast majority of 40k is a much higher percentage of 364k, than 155k out of 25.46 million, no matter which way you slice it. You cannot possibly dispute this.

So, as you are the one who is claimign that the percentages of educated turks leaving is higher than the percentages of German university graduates leaving, I think you are the one who actually has to provide the numbers on that one, methinks.

The (rough) numbers have been provided for 2 days now. And if you remember, it was YOU who provided the German numbers.

That actually does not show whether they are educated or not. I know for example that the husband of my friend Hülya has a universtiy degree.

This only deals with women only but here goes:

Besonders aufschlussreich ist die Studie von AYDIN u.a. hinsichtlich der Bildungssituation der Heiratsmigrantinnen. Demnach hat ca. ein Drittel (31,3 %) der Befragten lediglich die Pflichtschulzeit absolviert, die mittlerweile bei acht Jahren liegt. Dagegen hat ebenfalls ein Drittel (31,1 %) das Abitur gemacht. Lediglich 3,4 Prozent geben an, dass sie keine Schule besucht haben.21 Die Übrigen haben anderweitige Schulabschlüsse erworben, für die es in Deutschland häufig keine passende Entsprechung gibt. Hervorzuheben ist schließlich noch, dass 11,9 Prozent der Befragten mit einem in der Türkei erworbenen Universitätsabschluss nach Deutschland kommen.

http://www.buergergesellschaft.de/praxi ... en/106627/

Only 11.9% are university educated.

Again with the universal percentages here. What is the universal percentage of all Turks who leave Germany in comparison?

That percentage is Educated Germans leaving Germany and not all Germans leaving Germany.

Ok. So we agree here that the turkish emigrants leave Germany due to a variety of reasons including job offers, a competition advantage on the turkish market due to bilingualism, failed integration in Germany, less jobs in Germany and racism experienced by themselves?

Agreed. Again I do think that on average Turks suffer more Racism in Germany. But it's just speculation I don't have proof. As for the rest, yes were in agreement. The entire point is that a lot seem to leave for whatever reason.

That said, the statement is indefensible.

Thank you.

The stuff we discussed above. I'll just drop that because it is pretty much the same as said above.

Ok.