Galactic Empire vs Orions Arm Sephirotic Civilisations

[Uncluttered]

And you read all 27000+ posts? That's says more about you then not. But continue! It'll be a fun 100+ romp as you psychoanalyse and spout nonsense.

No, I used a script and looked for repeated phrases. Gotta love google.
Here's a compliment, you apparently write like an angry Isaac Asimov.

By my estimate, you are entering your threatening stage.

[Ghost Rider]

We know you're an obstifucating dipshit but you still have not answered Bakustra or anyone's questions. Provide proof that OA can do what you and other have said, provide some proof that OA's materials are within the realm of science as we know it and not their massive conjecture, and demonstrate that suddenly hyperdrives fail to work because OA runs...on writer's fiat of physics?

Anything, or will we trade barbs as you do your best "Who me?" impression.

Who me?

Here are some references for how wormholes might work.

References:
Towards possibility of self-maintained vacuum traversable wormhole- Khatsymosky, Vladimir M..
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9612013
Foam-like structure of the Universe - A. Kirillov and D. Turaev
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/070 ... 0208v2.pdf
How to make a traversable wormhole from a Schwarzschild black hole - S. Hayward and H. Koyama
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0406/0406080v1.pdf
Fate of the first traversable wormhole: black-hole collapse or inflationary expansion - H. Shinkai and S. Hayward
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0205/0205041v2.pdf
Density Fluctuations in the Oscillatory Phase of Nonclassical Inflaton in FRW Universe - K.K.Venkataratnam1 and P.K. Suresh
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/071 ... 3129v1.pdf
and of course the obligatory Wikipedia with lots more references.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

Seems pretty legit, if speculative to me. People have written science fiction on less. You know, star wars for instance.

Here's an article of neutrino cooling. You only use it for mega structures. Your mini fridge although owned by a degenerate, isn't the kind of degenerate matter we're talking about.
http://www.astrophysicsspectator.com/to ... oling.html

Now lets look for hyperdrive.

Oh crap, I can't find any real references to hyperdrive.
Here's an article you might find relevant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_claus

So you use, speculative thought as proof of OA's material. And still avoiding the primary reason of the versus because...you are saying that it cannot happen.

It is nice to see that you are providing the proof of my conjecture.

And you read all 27000+ posts? That's says more about you then not. But continue! It'll be a fun 100+ romp as you psychoanalyse and spout nonsense.

No, I used a script and looked for repeated phrases. Gotta love google.
Here's a compliment, you apparently write like an angry Isaac Asimov.

By my estimate, you are entering your threatening stage.

And you still scanned through fuck knows how many posts to come up with a conclusion that you have nothing but your conjecture upon. And given your posting here, we're to assume you came to a logical conclusion? I will thank you for this, usually trolls revert to this form around a hundred or so posts in.

[Uncluttered]

I have my outlined finished. I'll be writing until my bones heal. When I'm up and about again, I'm sure you'll still be here.

Thanks for your time.

Go cry yourself to sleep.

[Ghost Rider]

I have my outlined finished. I'll be writing until my bones heal. When I'm up and about again, I'm sure you'll still be here.

Thanks for your time.

Go cry yourself to sleep.

Thanks for the laughs, I'm certain in some way, you feel you've accomplished something in your time at it. What? I am unsure, but it did pass the time.

But as they say, you still did not answer the question. So are you ever going to? And if wondering the whole point of the topic is if said forces met in conflict, what would happen. So far the best we've seen is giant STL weaponry that would take centuries against an opponent that relies on FTL movement and weaponry.

[Norade]

Might I ask how this troll has managed to stay around so long when all he does is shift goalposts, whine, and then attack people for so much as daring to try and get the thread back on topic or ask him for proof.

Anyway, to stay on topic let me ask 'Uncluttered', must be referring the the uncluttered emptiness between his ears, can you please show an experimental proof for any of the theories you posted? Assuming that you cannot then, by your logic, they suddenly don't work anymore and OA's entire civilization falls apart and dies before anybody can even touch them. If you wish to allow them to work anyway than we acknowledge that both sides us magitech and move on.

[asedra]

Hello good sirs.

Stark: 'Like I said, every time you bust out the AI-supersmart-no-limits everyone laughs at how fucking stupid you are.'
I know this was a question posed to another member, but I feel the need to clarify some things.

1. The hyperdrive propulsion system was built by mere baseline humans. Not by transapients, and certainly not by toposophics. If it was simple enough for them to conceive and build, what makes you think a vastly superior intelligence could not re-engineer them, provided they have a working example to disect, and a sufficient ammount of time to do so?

2. Artificial intelligences do have limits, but they are not very limiting. I may have stolen that quate from ray kurziwall, but its the truth. The archailects are very efficient in exploiting the technologys that they have, whereas in SW, they are criminally underutilised.

3. The fact that the sephirotic empire does not have superluminal travel is one of their biggest weakness coming into this fight, as is the fact that, unlike the galactic empire, they have to deal with waste heat, without the benefits of apparently ultra efficient thermal exhaust ports. If they can copy those two technologys, they would become a much more deadly foe.

4. From what I know, galactic empire ships apparently deal out more energy via turbolaser shots, and have more durable armor as well as shields! Thats alot of stuff to reverse engineer in the long run. Not good.

[Norade]

Hello good sirs.

Hello OA wanking idiot.

1. The hyperdrive propulsion system was built by mere baseline humans. Not by transapients, and certainly not by toposophics. If it was simple enough for them to conceive and build, what makes you think a vastly superior intelligence could not re-engineer them, provided they have a working example to disect, and a sufficient ammount of time to do so?

If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time. Also, just because you capture a working copy of something and can think very rapidly and test models in speed up universes doesn't mean that you will understand a branch of physics that your culture obviously knows nothing about, nor would they have the means to produce the fuel for the drives as the design of these drives shows nothing of how to refine hypermatter which OA would also be lacking.

2. Artificial intelligences do have limits, but they are not very limiting. I may have stolen that quate from ray kurziwall, but its the truth. The archailects are very efficient in exploiting the technologys that they have, whereas in SW, they are criminally underutilised.

Try typing with both hands on the keyboard, you'll be less apt to make a slew of typing errors that way. Anyway, there is nothing to say that ship designs in Star Wars aren't at least partly done by AI's and then credited to the designer that fed the basic idea into the computer? Also, what's to say that an OA AI would actually understand the exotic materials well enough to build anything better?

3. The fact that the sephirotic empire does not have superluminal travel is one of their biggest weakness coming into this fight, as is the fact that, unlike the galactic empire, they have to deal with waste heat, without the benefits of apparently ultra efficient thermal exhaust ports. If they can copy those two technologys, they would become a much more deadly foe.

That's a big if given that even if you captured such a device intact, and the OA civilization has no way of catching let alone capturing a Wars vessel, it may use exotic components you know nothing about. Also, even if you can develop a knockoff in short order, getting them distributed and building entirely new fleets using this new technology will still take time that OA won't have.

4. From what I know, galactic empire ships apparently deal out more energy via turbolaser shots, and have more durable armor as well as shields! Thats alot of stuff to reverse engineer in the long run. Not good.

Yes, being in that deep of a tech hole means you lose, it's like asking a guy in a biplane armed with a .303 to down an F-22 that is armored to the point that your rounds can't even scratch the paint. You'll never hurt a ship enough to capture a working example of the technology and no amount of looking at a ship going past the speed of light will tell you what branch of physics you're lacking in.

[RedImperator]

If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.

I don't want to spend a lot of time defending OA here, but this is an incredibly disingenuous way to argue.

1. Compare two different settings, one in which FTL travel exists and one where it doesn't.
2. For the sake of fairness to the side with FTL, assume FTL works in both universes.
3. Use the fact the FTL-free side never discovered FTL as "proof" it's stupid.

[Bakustra]

If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.

I don't want to spend a lot of time defending OA here, but this is an incredibly disingenuous way to argue.

1. Compare two different settings, one in which FTL travel exists and one where it doesn't.
2. For the sake of fairness to the side with FTL, assume FTL works in both universes.
3. Use the fact the FTL-free side never discovered FTL as "proof" it's stupid.

Or, alternatively, this is like suggesting that Leonardo da Vinci and Newton were idiots because they never developed the electromagnetic theory of light. Not a perfect analogy, I suppose.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Know what gets to me about OA? The Dyson Wank

See that bit in the center? Its a STAR
What POSSIBLE reason would there be to construct multi AU sized shapes other then as pure wank?

[Norade]

If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.

I don't want to spend a lot of time defending OA here, but this is an incredibly disingenuous way to argue.

1. Compare two different settings, one in which FTL travel exists and one where it doesn't.
2. For the sake of fairness to the side with FTL, assume FTL works in both universes.
3. Use the fact the FTL-free side never discovered FTL as "proof" it's stupid.

Except that people defending OA seem to think that just by seeing that FTL is possible these minds will suddenly be able to produce hyperdrives. If they could do that they would have already done it if they could really think that fast. Ignoring anything out of universe the OA minds are simply ignorant of an entire branch of physics for the purposes of this scenario.

If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.

I don't want to spend a lot of time defending OA here, but this is an incredibly disingenuous way to argue.

1. Compare two different settings, one in which FTL travel exists and one where it doesn't.
2. For the sake of fairness to the side with FTL, assume FTL works in both universes.
3. Use the fact the FTL-free side never discovered FTL as "proof" it's stupid.

Or, alternatively, this is like suggesting that Leonardo da Vinci and Newton were idiots because they never developed the electromagnetic theory of light. Not a perfect analogy, I suppose.

Not a good analogy at all as these AI's are supposed to know everything about everything according to OA fans.

[RedImperator]

Except that people defending OA seem to think that just by seeing that FTL is possible these minds will suddenly be able to produce hyperdrives. If they could do that they would have already done it if they could really think that fast. Ignoring anything out of universe the OA minds are simply ignorant of an entire branch of physics for the purposes of this scenario.

So what? I's a simple no-limits fallacy; if you can't handle it without crippling the other side, you shouldn't be debating in the first place.

Besides, "I guess the AI's aren't that smart hurr durr" doesn't make sense as an argument. They're canonically capable of intellectual feats that are completely beyond anything we've seen in Star Wars (or the real world, for that matter). If you insist on trying to justify it (rather than just ignoring the whole issue), you have to resort to an answer that takes their intelligence into account. The Milky Way was surrounded by some kind of interdiction field the whole time and the opening of the wormhole broke it, or the Force in some way enables hyperdrive travel and it was absent from the Milky Way until, again, the wormhole opened.

[Uncluttered]

I know I'll be repeating myself here.

But for an OA vs GA scenario, the story must mention that physics have somehow changed.

I know this goes in the face of Vs Arguments, but, fuck it. Sometimes precedent has to take a back seat.

[Darth Hoth]

I really cannot see why. Why must it be the assumption that hypo-avuncular sophonts or whatever (me being unfamiliar with the OA lingo, I just made up something vaguely technobabblish) MUST KNOW EVERYTHING RAR! in a crossover scenario? This is a dishonest approach, no-limits fallacy, and just stupid in general.

What is more, it can as easily (and illogically) be argued for the other side. "RAR the Empire must immediately discover everything OA knows when they enter their universe because of physics change and whatever! Such an ancient society with such physics knowledge must know everything there is to know RAR!"

It just opens up endless potential for abuse and retarded scenarios.

Obviously the AI (or a human society, for that matter) will be theoretically able to reverse-engineer captured technology, given sufficient time and resources. To say that this is flat-out impossible is also a no-limits fallacy. However, the issue is whether reverse engineering is possible within a sufficiently small timeframe to matter for the outcome of the Vs battle. Which is never a given, and often not the case.

[Junghalli]

The whole issue is fairly irrelevant so long as you don't try to use an arbitrary assumption that exists purely to make vs debates easier as evidence for something - i.e. "If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time". Step outside the vs debate canon literalism SoD box for a minute and it's obvious the reason OA AIs haven't developed hyperdrive is because different authors make different assumptions about what is technologically possible and easy or hard. This doesn't necessarily mean they'll be able to figure it out INSTADORZ, but implying that the fact they haven't already figured it out long ago implies some sort of limitation on their intelligence is just abusing an arbitrary convention.

[Serafina]

I know I'll be repeating myself here.

But for an OA vs GA scenario, the story must mention that physics have somehow changed.

I know this goes in the face of Vs Arguments, but, fuck it. Sometimes precedent has to take a back seat.

That has already been debunked. There is no reason to assume that physics must change, other than OA-wankers desire to give their side instant FTL. Changing the fundamental laws of physics is a extraordinary claim, and there is absolutely no support for it.

Also, you are utterly misunderstanding the problems of reverse-engineering. The problem is not "looking and it and being able to understand how it works". The problem is "how do we build it, and do we have the necessary industry for it?".ö
The first question is already questionable - OA doesn't have hyperspace sensors, so observing hyperdrives in action is already quite difficult.
But the second question is their real downfall - they do not have any of the necessary infrastructure, they do not have any capability to manipulate the materials and fuels needed for SW-technology, their energy production is utterly insignificant.

The classical illustration for this: You give some of our early scientist (say, Newton) all the knowledge necessary to build a modern car. They have blueprints, explanations, exact material composition, every possible thing they can know about it. You also give them all the computational power we had when we built these things, or even more.
Can they build that car?
Absolutely not. Their material science is not up to it - they don't have steel or the necessary strength, no metal flexible enough, no modern rubber for the tires and so on. They can't craft any of it with the necessary precision. They can't refine the fuel to run the car. And so on.

That's exactly the problem OA would face. Just like above, they wouldn't have any of the necessary industry to build any SW-technology (well, perhaps some, but not the relevant stuff). Worse, just because you can figure out how something works, you can't necessarily figure out how to build it!

So yes - OA AI-wank won't help them actually building any SW-technology.

[Norade]

Except that people defending OA seem to think that just by seeing that FTL is possible these minds will suddenly be able to produce hyperdrives. If they could do that they would have already done it if they could really think that fast. Ignoring anything out of universe the OA minds are simply ignorant of an entire branch of physics for the purposes of this scenario.

So what? I's a simple no-limits fallacy; if you can't handle it without crippling the other side, you shouldn't be debating in the first place.

Besides, "I guess the AI's aren't that smart hurr durr" doesn't make sense as an argument. They're canonically capable of intellectual feats that are completely beyond anything we've seen in Star Wars (or the real world, for that matter). If you insist on trying to justify it (rather than just ignoring the whole issue), you have to resort to an answer that takes their intelligence into account. The Milky Way was surrounded by some kind of interdiction field the whole time and the opening of the wormhole broke it, or the Force in some way enables hyperdrive travel and it was absent from the Milky Way until, again, the wormhole opened.

Bullshit, we don't know what feats Star Wars AI or the AI the Rakata may have used to developed hyperdrive were capable of so we have no reason to believe that OA will understand the principles behind them the moment they see FTL happen. Nor are we given any reason to think that they are capable to developing any sort of FTL as we never see that they have done any research into the field. Thinking hyperfast doesn't mean you will think of any one thing or be able to solve a problem that don't even think has a solution.

It's not the simplest solution to assume magic prevented ftl, that adds complexity and this must be discarded. The simplest way is to simply say the OA minds never thought of it.

The whole issue is fairly irrelevant so long as you don't try to use an arbitrary assumption that exists purely to make vs debates easier as evidence for something - i.e. "If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time". Step outside the vs debate canon literalism SoD box for a minute and it's obvious the reason OA AIs haven't developed hyperdrive is because different authors make different assumptions about what is technologically possible and easy or hard. This doesn't necessarily mean they'll be able to figure it out INSTADORZ, but implying that the fact they haven't already figured it out long ago implies some sort of limitation on their intelligence is just abusing an arbitrary convention.

Sorry, but I'm not stepping outside the SoD box to give anything to any universe as there is never a need for it. OA doesn't have ftl travel and it doesn't honestly matter why, but if they don't have it, and it's possible, then they must not have thought of it for some reason. It's as simple as that.

[RedImperator]

Except that people defending OA seem to think that just by seeing that FTL is possible these minds will suddenly be able to produce hyperdrives. If they could do that they would have already done it if they could really think that fast. Ignoring anything out of universe the OA minds are simply ignorant of an entire branch of physics for the purposes of this scenario.

So what? I's a simple no-limits fallacy; if you can't handle it without crippling the other side, you shouldn't be debating in the first place.

Besides, "I guess the AI's aren't that smart hurr durr" doesn't make sense as an argument. They're canonically capable of intellectual feats that are completely beyond anything we've seen in Star Wars (or the real world, for that matter). If you insist on trying to justify it (rather than just ignoring the whole issue), you have to resort to an answer that takes their intelligence into account. The Milky Way was surrounded by some kind of interdiction field the whole time and the opening of the wormhole broke it, or the Force in some way enables hyperdrive travel and it was absent from the Milky Way until, again, the wormhole opened.

Bullshit, we don't know what feats Star Wars AI or the AI the Rakata may have used to developed hyperdrive were capable of so we have no reason to believe that OA will understand the principles behind them the moment they see FTL happen. Nor are we given any reason to think that they are capable to developing any sort of FTL as we never see that they have done any research into the field. Thinking hyperfast doesn't mean you will think of any one thing or be able to solve a problem that don't even think has a solution.

This would be a good point, except I was never arguing that. Let's review:

If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.

This is what I replied to. I don't know and don't care if OA AI's can figure out hyperdrive in time to win this scenario. What went up my ass was you trying to use OA's lack of FTL as some kind of proof of the AI's capabilities. If you want to debate this honestly, you can't use OA's lack of FTL to prove or disprove anything. They don't have FTL because the author didn't include FTL in their setting.

I mean, the whole idea in a vs. debate is to compare to sci-fi settings. By trying to use a debate convention as evidence against one side, you're essentially creating a crippled version of OA that only exists in this thread. What's the point?

It's not the simplest solution to assume magic prevented ftl, that adds complexity and this must be discarded. The simplest way is to simply say the OA minds never thought of it.

It doesn't really matter what explanation you pick as long as you don't try to use that as some kind of indication of their capability.

Sorry, but I'm not stepping outside the SoD box to give anything to any universe as there is never a need for it. OA doesn't have ftl travel and it doesn't honestly matter why, but if they don't have it, and it's possible, then they must not have thought of it for some reason. It's as simple as that.

Hilariously, while you're allegedly all for SoD, you're introducing outside information about OA's capabilities that exists nowhere in OA's canon.

[Norade]

If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.

This is what I replied to. I don't know and don't care if OA AI's can figure out hyperdrive in time to win this scenario. What went up my ass was you trying to use OA's lack of FTL as some kind of proof of the AI's capabilities. If you want to debate this honestly, you can't use OA's lack of FTL to prove or disprove anything. They don't have FTL because the author didn't include FTL in their setting.

I mean, the whole idea in a vs. debate is to compare to sci-fi settings. By trying to use a debate convention as evidence against one side, you're essentially creating a crippled version of OA that only exists in this thread. What's the point?

Do they have FTL outside of a versus debate? No, therefore the AI's obviously couldn't develop FTL in their own universe either.

It's not the simplest solution to assume magic prevented ftl, that adds complexity and this must be discarded. The simplest way is to simply say the OA minds never thought of it.

It doesn't really matter what explanation you pick as long as you don't try to use that as some kind of indication of their capability.

They have no FTL, they have hyper-smart AI, these hyper-smart AI have not developed FTL. Therefor the AI's can't develop FTL. Just because somebody else can disapear in a flash doesn't mean they suddenly can develop FTL.

Sorry, but I'm not stepping outside the SoD box to give anything to any universe as there is never a need for it. OA doesn't have ftl travel and it doesn't honestly matter why, but if they don't have it, and it's possible, then they must not have thought of it for some reason. It's as simple as that.

Hilariously, while you're allegedly all for SoD, you're introducing outside information about OA's capabilities that exists nowhere in OA's canon.

They can't develop FTL in their own universe anyway so what am I introducing again? Oh wait, nothing except confirming that they can't develop something they haven't developed.

[ThomasP]

Do they have FTL outside of a versus debate? No, therefore the AI's obviously couldn't develop FTL in their own universe either.

"Couldn't develop FTL" is a charged phrase and you aren't exactly qualifying what "couldn't" entails.

"Couldn't because FTL doesn't exist and isn't physically possible in their universe" is not equivalent to "couldn't because the versus debate".

[asedra]

'Hello OA wanking idiot.' Haha, guilty as charged. Don't get me wrong I love star trek, but they have no chance against what the machine gods are bringing to the table. And I will thank you to not greet people who have an opposing view to yours by calling them a wanker, its very juvenile.

'If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.' No, they wouldn't have, because the limits on producing SW tech obviously breaks down upon their encountering of such technology, face to face. Otherwise, if this meeting is taking place in the orions arm universe (which is scientifically harder than SW), their vaunted hyperdrives would not work.

'Also, just because you capture a working copy of something and can think very rapidly and test models in speed up universes doesn't mean that you will understand a branch of physics that your culture obviously knows nothing about, nor would they have the means to produce the fuel for the drives as the design of these drives shows nothing of how to refine hypermatter which OA would also be lacking.' I disagree. Since there is as much differance between an archailects brainpower and ours as between a humans and a gnat, they would not need as thorough an education base in the theory of hyperdrive in order to work their way up to SW level. Perhaps just a glimpse of the basics. (Also, you do not seem to understand that hundreds of years of theorising IS possible in months {yes, months} when one has the benefits of weak superintelligence. After all, its merely normal human brainpower, run at enormously higher speed.)

For example, albert einstein would not be competant to handle the high caliber problems encountered by scientists today. We know that by virtue of how quickly a field of study grows once it enters the information age. But, if given a limited insight into one of these fields (perhaps from a few scraps of books), and a lifetime or two to work out the problems with his staff, old albert could potentially approach our level of understanding of this field. Especially if he was upgraded to transapient intellectual status.

'But wait!' One might object. 'Even IF he had one of two lifetimes to understand this field with his aides, uharased, he would be that much further behind us once he is finished!' True. If his thinking speed is limited to mans pitifull 200 hertz rate. By speeding up the rate his neurons (or whatever computing matter he uses since we promptly upgraded him) fire at, he can get that same work done in days. Thats the distinction between superintelligence, friend: Weak is faster, strong is better (in qaulitive terms). And yes, you can have both at the same time. Toposophics have it in spades.

'Try typing with both hands on the keyboard, you'll be less apt to make a slew of typing errors that way.' Try keeping the critique limited to the content, there, mr spelling bee.

'Anyway, there is nothing to say that ship designs in Star Wars aren't at least partly done by AI's.' LOL. Even though there is no mention of such. Even if your statement was true, using superintelligent machines to design ships is like using a billion dollar hammer to hit a 10 penny nail. You are so naieve. The applications of sapient AI is so much further than what you can grasp at. I'll introduce you to its potentcy the hard way.

'Also, what's to say that an OA AI would actually understand the exotic materials well enough to build anything better?' Haha, thats a good one dude, your cracking me up! What the empire uses to build its star ships would be considered mere playdough by OA standards. We have nanodiamondoid computronium substrate, monopolium (yes, thats matter with a magnetic field extending in only one pole), magmatter, quarkonium, harmonium, pentaquarks and Q-balls. Although I will grant, the hulls of SW ships are very sturdy, they exhibit no other interseting propertys (or anything which could be described as exotic by any stretch of the imagiation). But perhaps you know something I do not? If so, please, do not refrain from sending a thoughtfull reply.

[RedImperator]

Do they have FTL outside of a versus debate? No, therefore the AI's obviously couldn't develop FTL in their own universe either.

It's not the simplest solution to assume magic prevented ftl, that adds complexity and this must be discarded. The simplest way is to simply say the OA minds never thought of it.

It doesn't really matter what explanation you pick as long as you don't try to use that as some kind of indication of their capability.

They have no FTL, they have hyper-smart AI, these hyper-smart AI have not developed FTL. Therefor the AI's can't develop FTL. Just because somebody else can disapear in a flash doesn't mean they suddenly can develop FTL.

Sorry, but I'm not stepping outside the SoD box to give anything to any universe as there is never a need for it. OA doesn't have ftl travel and it doesn't honestly matter why, but if they don't have it, and it's possible, then they must not have thought of it for some reason. It's as simple as that.

Hilariously, while you're allegedly all for SoD, you're introducing outside information about OA's capabilities that exists nowhere in OA's canon.

They can't develop FTL in their own universe anyway so what am I introducing again? Oh wait, nothing except confirming that they can't develop something they haven't developed.

Are you deliberately being obtuse, or are you just brain damaged? They didn't develop FTL because in their setting, FTL isn't possible. They didn't develop it for the same reason they didn't develop perpetual motion machines--it's physically impossible. It doesn't say anything about their capabilities. FTL is introduced in the versus debate as a debate convention only; trying to use that convention as evidence against OA is introducing new facts into the setting that doesn't exist in OA's canon.

Whether the AIs can reverse-engineer hyperdrive can only be determined by comparing similar situations in OA's canon; an alien power (or an isolated human-descended society) introduces an unknown new technology and other OA powers attempt to reverse-engineer it without assistance. Since hyperdrive is based on entirely new and unknown physics, I suspect it would be quite difficult, given the military pressure the OA powers would be under, and even if they could, they'd still need to develop the physical infrastructure to build and deploy hyperdrive-equipped warships. That said, however, you still can't use the fact they never developed it before as any kind of evidence, because it simply didn't exist in the setting beforehand.

[Norade]

Are you deliberately being obtuse, or are you just brain damaged? They didn't develop FTL because in their setting, FTL isn't possible. They didn't develop it for the same reason they didn't develop perpetual motion machines--it's physically impossible. It doesn't say anything about their capabilities. FTL is introduced in the versus debate as a debate convention only; trying to use that convention as evidence against OA is introducing new facts into the setting that doesn't exist in OA's canon.

Whether the AIs can reverse-engineer hyperdrive can only be determined by comparing similar situations in OA's canon; an alien power (or an isolated human-descended society) introduces an unknown new technology and other OA powers attempt to reverse-engineer it without assistance. Since hyperdrive is based on entirely new and unknown physics, I suspect it would be quite difficult, given the military pressure the OA powers would be under, and even if they could, they'd still need to develop the physical infrastructure to build and deploy hyperdrive-equipped warships. That said, however, you still can't use the fact they never developed it before as any kind of evidence, because it simply didn't exist in the setting beforehand.

However there's no evidence for the claim that FTL was ever impossible, just as if we suddenly saw something go FTL within the scope of modern detection equipment and determined that from that point on the object moved faster than light. Would scientists assume that FTL just became possible, or start looking for a branch of physics we missed?

'Hello OA wanking idiot.' Haha, guilty as charged. Don't get me wrong I love star trek, but they have no chance against what the machine gods are bringing to the table. And I will thank you to not greet people who have an opposing view to yours by calling them a wanker, its very juvenile.

Sorry, you don't earn bonus points for politeness here.

'If these minds were really so smart they would have already developed a faster than light drive if baseline humans and aliens in Star Wars have done so in a reasonable length of time.' No, they wouldn't have, because the limits on producing SW tech obviously breaks down upon their encountering of such technology, face to face. Otherwise, if this meeting is taking place in the orions arm universe (which is scientifically harder than SW), their vaunted hyperdrives would not work.

OA isn't hard scifi and has just as much magi-tech as Star Wars so you can shove this line of reasoning up your ass.

'Also, just because you capture a working copy of something and can think very rapidly and test models in speed up universes doesn't mean that you will understand a branch of physics that your culture obviously knows nothing about, nor would they have the means to produce the fuel for the drives as the design of these drives shows nothing of how to refine hypermatter which OA would also be lacking.' I disagree. Since there is as much differance between an archailects brainpower and ours as between a humans and a gnat, they would not need as thorough an education base in the theory of hyperdrive in order to work their way up to SW level. Perhaps just a glimpse of the basics. (Also, you do not seem to understand that hundreds of years of theorising IS possible in months {yes, months} when one has the benefits of weak superintelligence. After all, its merely normal human brainpower, run at enormously higher speed.)

I don't care if they can do years in months if they only capture a drive they still no nothing of the fuel source, and even if they capture both they have nothing of the capacity to even start running tests on any of it let alone building a prototype.

For example, albert einstein would not be competant to handle the high caliber problems encountered by scientists today. We know that by virtue of how quickly a field of study grows once it enters the information age. But, if given a limited insight into one of these fields (perhaps from a few scraps of books), and a lifetime or two to work out the problems with his staff, old albert could potentially approach our level of understanding of this field. Especially if he was upgraded to transapient intellectual status.

'But wait!' One might object. 'Even IF he had one of two lifetimes to understand this field with his aides, uharased, he would be that much further behind us once he is finished!' True. If his thinking speed is limited to mans pitifull 200 hertz rate. By speeding up the rate his neurons (or whatever computing matter he uses since we promptly upgraded him) fire at, he can get that same work done in days. Thats the distinction between superintelligence, friend: Weak is faster, strong is better (in qaulitive terms). And yes, you can have both at the same time. Toposophics have it in spades.

Look, the AI wanking starts and the typing skill goes down, I can now confirm my theory that this poster is typing one handed.

'Try typing with both hands on the keyboard, you'll be less apt to make a slew of typing errors that way.' Try keeping the critique limited to the content, there, mr spelling bee.

Try taking your keyboard and shoving it up your ass retard. Also, quote tags, use them next time.

Anyway, there is nothing to say that ship designs in Star Wars aren't at least partly done by AI's.' LOL. Even though there is no mention of such. Even if your statement was true, using superintelligent machines to design ships is like using a billion dollar hammer to hit a 10 penny nail. You are so naieve. The applications of sapient AI is so much further than what you can grasp at. I'll introduce you to its potentcy the hard way.

'Also, what's to say that an OA AI would actually understand the exotic materials well enough to build anything better?' Haha, thats a good one dude, your cracking me up! What the empire uses to build its star ships would be considered mere playdough by OA standards. We have nanodiamondoid computronium substrate, monopolium (yes, thats matter with a magnetic field extending in only one pole), magmatter, quarkonium, harmonium, pentaquarks and Q-balls. Although I will grant, the hulls of SW ships are very sturdy, they exhibit no other interseting propertys (or anything which could be described as exotic by any stretch of the imagiation). But perhaps you know something I do not? If so, please, do not refrain from sending a thoughtfull reply.[/quote]

Oh, so they use the stuff of popular science rags and buzz words. Show me how tough they are instead of throwing outbuzz words.

[Norade]

Ghetto Edit: Could a passing mod fix my quote tag above.

[RedImperator]

Are you deliberately being obtuse, or are you just brain damaged? They didn't develop FTL because in their setting, FTL isn't possible. They didn't develop it for the same reason they didn't develop perpetual motion machines--it's physically impossible. It doesn't say anything about their capabilities. FTL is introduced in the versus debate as a debate convention only; trying to use that convention as evidence against OA is introducing new facts into the setting that doesn't exist in OA's canon.

Whether the AIs can reverse-engineer hyperdrive can only be determined by comparing similar situations in OA's canon; an alien power (or an isolated human-descended society) introduces an unknown new technology and other OA powers attempt to reverse-engineer it without assistance. Since hyperdrive is based on entirely new and unknown physics, I suspect it would be quite difficult, given the military pressure the OA powers would be under, and even if they could, they'd still need to develop the physical infrastructure to build and deploy hyperdrive-equipped warships. That said, however, you still can't use the fact they never developed it before as any kind of evidence, because it simply didn't exist in the setting beforehand.

However there's no evidence for the claim that FTL was ever impossible, just as if we suddenly saw something go FTL within the scope of modern detection equipment and determined that from that point on the object moved faster than light. Would scientists assume that FTL just became possible, or start looking for a branch of physics we missed?

There's no evidence FTL ever was possible in the OA universe, either. Seeing as Star Wars-style hyperdrive is completely ruled out by the laws of physics, the default assumption, if we don't see it or something like it, is that it doesn't exist. If you're making the argument that it actually is possible, then you have to find the evidence inside OA's canon.

Once again, you're trying to use a versus debate convention as evidence of something inside OA's setting, when it isn't. You're introducing outside information. FTL is only being introduced into OA's universe to allow there to be a debate at all; otherwise, Star Wars ships would pop out of the Milky Way end of the wormhole and putter around there at sublight until they got bored and went home. The debate convention doesn't suddenly change OA's setting.