How fast is Tau railgun?

[Srelex]

Hoare's space combat is wretched, minimalistic, and full of Tau wank but those aren't his only sins. He's also totally inconsistent with the rest of 40K's space fluff and game mechanics. Every other piece of 40K game mechanics and background material has combat occurring over tens of thousands of kilometers or more and isn't nearly as . . . generous to the Tau when it comes to the capabilities of their vessels. And Hoare's novels are well after this has been established. It's the wild veering into the silly and away from the established universe that people object to.

Just as a question, if we were in a parallel universe where his depiction of space fighting is standard in 40k, how would his novels hold up then?

As for the Tau, I know a lot of people hate them for their initial "shiny awesome" start and for taking away the Guard's position as the army of massed infantry and overwhelming firepower. Sure the IG also has lots of vehicle options, but the Tau pushed the IG out of one of its niches and they don't like it.

Always thought Tau were closer to Eldar in gameplay myself. IG certainly has a lot of artillery to choose from these days nonetheless.

Lastly, Tau wankers and fanboys tend to be annoying as all hell.

Wankers and fanboys in general, you mean.

[Raxmei]

As for the Tau, I know a lot of people hate them for their initial "shiny awesome" start and for taking away the Guard's position as the army of massed infantry and overwhelming firepower. Sure the IG also has lots of vehicle options, but the Tau pushed the IG out of one of its niches and they don't like it.

IG is still an army of massed infantry and overwhelming firepower, among other things. Tau can do something like that too, but they take a completely different approach to it. While Tau fans may be fond of calling themselves the ultimate shooting army they're really just one of many armies that depend heavily on shooting and have their own unique way of going about it. I will agree that part of the annoyance factor is that their shiny awesome tends to be directed as a dig at the Imperium.

[Sinewmire]

I think its the way that the Tau Empire is generally portrayed as superior to every other force by consistently punching above it's weight. They were introduced as a small, insignificant alien empire, spared utter annihilation only by a quick of the warp. Three editions of their codex later and they're a credible threat to the Imperium and have fought off the Tyranids and Spess Mehrenes. We're told they're naive, but they don't seem to be suffering for it. We're told they're small but they seem to increase in size every time you look.

I very much enjoyed the Tau of Dawn of War - their propaganda was very much recognised as such, and they performed distinctly evil acts, such as sterilising Kronus' human inhabitants.

Personally, my dislike of the Tau comes from their basic soldier having weapons that nearly match a heavy bolter, and having heavy weapons teams that can sit behind a wall, pop out, shoot, then go back behind the wall before I'm allowed to shoot back. It's just illogical ("Sorry sir, we can't wait and then fire our Lascannons when they pop out... it's not our turn, sir!").

Still, they're not completely overpowered - I have fond memories of watching the sole surviving member of a 400 point space marine army, a Veteran Sergeant, cut his way through an entire 400 points of tau fire warriors. Made my day.

[Srelex]

I think its the way that the Tau Empire is generally portrayed as superior to every other force by consistently punching above it's weight. They were introduced as a small, insignificant alien empire, spared utter annihilation only by a quick of the warp. Three editions of their codex later and they're a credible threat to the Imperium and have fought off the Tyranids and Spess Mehrenes. We're told they're naive, but they don't seem to be suffering for it. We're told they're small but they seem to increase in size every time you look.

In the new Dark Eldar codex, the Tau are certainly naive enough to strike a deal with the DE, apparently. And they do suffer for it.

[Junghalli]

My familiarity with the universe is pretty much entirely from sci fi debating, but it sounds to me sort of as if a lot of the typical Humans Are Special tropes of sci fi got transferred to the Tau. Is there any truth to that?

BTW if so I can't help finding the whole thing rather ironic, even if the satire is probably unintentional, cause if there's any truth to this reading it sounds like Humans Are Special sure is annoying when you don't have tribalist self-identification to take the bite off the sillyness and obvious author favoritism.

[Ryan Thunder]

I very much enjoyed the Tau of Dawn of War - their propaganda was very much recognised as such, and they performed distinctly evil acts, such as sterilising Kronus' human inhabitants.

Man. So is there any Imperial or Eldar propaganda in the official literature or is that just a thing unique to the Tau?

Personally, my dislike of the Tau comes from their basic soldier having weapons that nearly match a heavy bolter, and having heavy weapons teams that can sit behind a wall, pop out, shoot, then go back behind the wall before I'm allowed to shoot back. It's just illogical ("Sorry sir, we can't wait and then fire our Lascannons when they pop out... it's not our turn, sir!").

It makes more sense if you've ever played Armored Core 4.

As for trooper firepower, pulse weapons are still AP5 which means that heavy infantry can still just tank it rather safely. Especially if they're deep striking. Terminators are fucking annoying for me because they can just tank everything my Fire Warriors throw at them and if any of them make it to my lines it's pretty much game over because I can't shoot them any more.

Still, they're not completely overpowered - I have fond memories of watching the sole surviving member of a 400 point space marine army, a Veteran Sergeant, cut his way through an entire 400 points of tau fire warriors. Made my day.

Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of that kind of thing. Fucking hilarious, every time.

"oops, I forgot about that dude. That's the game, looks like."

[Agent Sorchus]

I very much enjoyed the Tau of Dawn of War - their propaganda was very much recognised as such, and they performed distinctly evil acts, such as sterilising Kronus' human inhabitants.

Man. So is there any Imperial or Eldar propaganda in the official literature or is that just a thing unique to the Tau?

We know that there is a lot of Imperium propaganda thanks to the Cain books (as in the covers are actually an in universe propaganda piece about Cain. ) It is very rare for some piece to be written in the Eldar perspective so maybe not any propaganda from them.

[lPeregrine]

not using the War-Talon to strike at surface targets

This is pretty much inevitable. If you want to have a ground war (at least without the same old perfect stalemate in orbit every single time), you can't have orbital bombardment from ships with 40k-level firepower. It's just one of those cases where you have to sacrifice a bit of realism in order to have your story at all.


And the Tau are hardly the only ones to benefit from this little break from reality. IA:3 might have its issues, but the entire plot of IA:8 (Orks vs. Imperium) falls apart if you ask why the Imperial ships in orbit don't just shoot the target instead of wasting all that effort deploying Elysian troops to do it the hard way, deploying a drop pod assault to plant melta bombs on an un-guarded fuel depot instead of just shooting it from orbit, etc. And that's hardly the only example, pick any random handful of battles and most of them only happen at all because the authors have all those battleships in orbit magically forget how to shoot ground targets.

and having heavy weapons teams that can sit behind a wall, pop out, shoot, then go back behind the wall before I'm allowed to shoot back. It's just illogical ("Sorry sir, we can't wait and then fire our Lascannons when they pop out... it's not our turn, sir!").

As opposed to the completely logical situation where a unit of assault marines can jump + assault 18" while my shooting unit just sits there helplessly, unable to shoot the incoming assault unit because it's not their turn? Or the completely logical situation where a giant tank can be sitting "in reserve" (IOW, off the table) and be completely immune to fire, but still be so close that it can move on next turn? There are just problems inherent to a turn-based wargame, and the Tau are hardly the only ones who benefit.





As for why people hate the Tau, the reason is simple: marine fanboys can't stand to see any fluff that makes marines look bad. Therefore if the only army that isn't crippled by backwards and superstitious views of technology gets an excellent infantry gun (but overall, troops that are pretty much the worst in the game) is "overpowered", but fluff that describes a single squad of space marines being enough to win an entire war (logistics, artillery, who needs to consider things like that?) is "reasonable and entirely accurate portrayal of war".

[Imperial Overlord]

Therefore if the only army that isn't crippled by backwards and superstitious views of technology gets an excellent infantry gun (but overall, troops that are pretty much the worst in the game) is "overpowered", but fluff that describes a single squad of space marines being enough to win an entire war (logistics, artillery, who needs to consider things like that?) is "reasonable and entirely accurate portrayal of war".

This isn't true. The Tau get a better gun than the Eldar or the Necrons, who are in no way technologically crippled. Both races are far more advanced technologically than the Tau. The squad of Space Marines being enough to win a war on their own is entirely propaganda (as opposed to making a difference with say a decapitation strike) and I've never seen anyone treat it as such.

As for how the Tau stack up the IG as massed firepower armies, I can't really say other than all the IG players I've talked to believe the Tau moved in on their territory and took it away. Whether or not that perception is true I can't say, but it is one of the reasons that they're annoyed.

As for Hoare, when he's not dealing with absurdly small numbers in space, he's much better. He has a much better grasp on greed, intrigue, and ambition.

Lastly, 40K has a number of ways for removing orbital bombardment from the equation and forcing a mostly ground based war. The better writing includes little details like defence laser emplacements, torpedo silos, places that need to be captured relatively intact and void shield arrays when dealing with said situations. Bad writing . . . doesn't.

[lPeregrine]

This isn't true. The Tau get a better gun than the Eldar or the Necrons, who are in no way technologically crippled. Both races are far more advanced technologically than the Tau.

I wouldn't say they get a better gun than the Eldar, they get a different gun. Tau get a high-strength (and fluff-wise, heavy and bulky) rapid fire weapon (IOW, only good for shooting), the Eldar get a smaller and lower-strength weapon that allows them to assault after firing. At least in game terms, you can't really say that one is better than the other.

As for the Necrons, it's almost unanimously agreed that their entire codex sucks and desperately needs an update, so saying the Tau are marginally less terrible isn't saying very much.

The squad of Space Marines being enough to win a war on their own is entirely propaganda (as opposed to making a difference with say a decapitation strike) and I've never seen anyone treat it as such.

That's kind of my point. The wildest claims about space marines can be dismissed as "in-universe propaganda" and that's ok, but if the Tau get any similar claims then it's immediately (by the Tau haters) labeled as favoritism.

As for how the Tau stack up the IG as massed firepower armies, I can't really say other than all the IG players I've talked to believe the Tau moved in on their territory and took it away. Whether or not that perception is true I can't say, but it is one of the reasons that they're annoyed.

TBH, those IG players just suck at the game. IG, at least with their current codex, are by far the best army in the game (or at least in the top 2-3), while Tau are generally considered one of the worst (or, at best, mediocre).

Lastly, 40K has a number of ways for removing orbital bombardment from the equation and forcing a mostly ground based war. The better writing includes little details like defence laser emplacements, torpedo silos, places that need to be captured relatively intact and void shield arrays when dealing with said situations. Bad writing . . . doesn't.

Obviously there are ways to force a ground war (though it gets tiring when every single battlefield has an invulnerable fleet-killing defense laser system right next door). My point is that the rarity of orbital bombardment even when it would make sense (such as in IA:3) has nothing to do with any favoritism towards the Tau. It's a general rule of 40k (and really, any science fiction universe with that kind of firepower) that applies to everyone equally, so it's not fair to use the IA:3 example as a reason to hate the Tau.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Tau get a Strength 5 gun with killer range. The Eldar, a vastly more advanced society, have a gun with neither the power nor the range. Sure they can assault with it, but since you can only fire it at close range that's not much of a consolation because they have to fucking close through their enemies range to even fire the damn thing. When was the last time The point I was objecting mostly strongly to was "Therefore if the only army that isn't crippled by backwards and superstitious" which is manifestly untrue. They are not by any means the only technologically advanced society, but they have infantry weapons which are harder hitting and have triple the range of a shuriken catapult.

And saying the latest codex invalidates the IG players complaints isn't true. The latest codex is powerful, but it hasn't even been out for a year and their complaints go back for the last decade. You can't say that the IG players had no grounds for disliking the Tau back in 2001 or 2005 or 2008 because in 2010 the IG would get a new codex.

Obviously there are ways to force a ground war (though it gets tiring when every single battlefield has an invulnerable fleet-killing defense laser system right next door).

Doesn't need to be invulnerable fleet killing laser system, it only needs to make bombardment not worth the cost. The point I'm making is that it doesn't have to be SoD breaking, it just is in the hands of bad writers and the 40K line has its share of those.

[lPeregrine]

The Tau get a Strength 5 gun with killer range. The Eldar, a vastly more advanced society, have a gun with neither the power nor the range.

Again, note the size. Eldar infantry guns are small (like you'd want if you use your gun as you run into melee), Tau guns are huge. You're essentially comparing a SMG to a full-size rifle. It's not that Tau technology is more advanced, it's that the Tau just have a bigger gun.

The point I was objecting mostly strongly to was "Therefore if the only army that isn't crippled by backwards and superstitious" which is manifestly untrue. They are not by any means the only technologically advanced society, but they have infantry weapons which are harder hitting and have triple the range of a shuriken catapult.

Ok, fine, Eldar are technologically advanced. That still leaves the Imperium (which are by far the majority of 40k players and armies), Tyranids, Orks and Chaos that are technologically backwards. The basic point stands: fanboys whine and cry because the Tau aren't as fundamentally stupid as their favorite army.

And saying the latest codex invalidates the IG players complaints isn't true. The latest codex is powerful, but it hasn't even been out for a year and their complaints go back for the last decade. You can't say that the IG players had no grounds for disliking the Tau back in 2001 or 2005 or 2008 because in 2010 the IG would get a new codex.

Sure I can. Ever hear of something called "codex creep"? You know, that thing where GW makes each new codex even more powerful so that people will buy more models? Any "role stealing" the Tau did was only because the IG had an older codex, fundamentally the two armies are very different. Unless those IG players also disliked every OTHER army with a newer (and more powerful) codex, they have no grounds for disliking the Tau. And of course current IG players have absolutely nothing to complain about.

Doesn't need to be invulnerable fleet killing laser system, it only needs to make bombardment not worth the cost. The point I'm making is that it doesn't have to be SoD breaking, it just is in the hands of bad writers and the 40K line has its share of those.

Which has nothing to do with my point is that:

1) Orbital bombardment happens far less frequently in science fiction than it would in "reality".

and

2) This is true for everyone in 40k, not just when the Tau are the enemy. It's just stupid to whine about a lack of orbital bombardment in IA:3 as a reason to hate the Tau when everyone else gets the same treatment. Even without leaving the Imperial Armour series, the lack of orbital bombardment in IA:8 is FAR worse than in IA:3. If you're going to cry about Tau favoritism, you'd better also be crying just as much about Ork favoritism.

[Black Admiral]

And the Tau are hardly the only ones to benefit from this little break from reality. IA:3 might have its issues, but the entire plot of IA:8 (Orks vs. Imperium) falls apart if you ask why the Imperial ships in orbit don't just shoot the target instead of wasting all that effort deploying Elysian troops to do it the hard way, deploying a drop pod assault to plant melta bombs on an un-guarded fuel depot instead of just shooting it from orbit, etc. And that's hardly the only example, pick any random handful of battles and most of them only happen at all because the authors have all those battleships in orbit magically forget how to shoot ground targets.

First off, you're assuming I think very much of IA8 - as it happens, I don't and consider it the worst of the lot. But the Tau are the ones under discussion here.

And most of the time the Black Library's authors are pretty good at explaining why orbital bombardment's off the table. Forge World aren't; the closest they've come is for the Vraks stuff, and that's handled in the most stupid way possible so they can have their little WW1 kick.

[Talk738kno]

Errm, why are you guys arguing about mechanics in relation to fluff? Fluffwise a pulse weapon is only a little better then a lasgun and shuriken weapons can punch threw SM armor in a single volley(Innocence Proves Nothing) and bloody near take a SM's arm off.(Lord of the Night)

[lPeregrine]

But the Tau are the ones under discussion here.

Yes, and the point is that the IA:3 example is a stupid reason to hate the Tau, given that the same thing happens in books where the Tau aren't present at all.

[NecronLord]

Again, note the size. Eldar infantry guns are small (like you'd want if you use your gun as you run into melee), Tau guns are huge. You're essentially comparing a SMG to a full-size rifle. It's not that Tau technology is more advanced, it's that the Tau just have a bigger gun.

There is no fluff establishing the Tau gun to be superior to its eldar equivalent. The Tau are shootier due to game balance (IE, if they weren't the best at it, they'd have nothing to recommend them) not because their guns necessarily are the best in the actual background. All Tau stats should thus be taken under advisement as potentially inaccurate because to make them playable, the game needs to make them suck at everything but shooting, and be real good at that.

Ok, fine, Eldar are technologically advanced. That still leaves the Imperium (which are by far the majority of 40k players and armies), Tyranids, Orks and Chaos that are technologically backwards.

Tyranids are not technologically backwards, and nor, really, are orks. Orks can build titan-scale teleporters, after all.

[Black Admiral]

But the Tau are the ones under discussion here.

Yes, and the point is that the IA:3 example is a stupid reason to hate the Tau, given that the same thing happens in books where the Tau aren't present at all.

Frankly, my problem is not the orbital bombardment issue in itself (although it's annoying because there's no explanation for why the Raptors aren't doing so); my problem is the fact that the Raptors act utterly out of character, solely for the purpose of avoiding the Tau getting their little blue arses kicked.

[Imperial Overlord]

Unless those IG players also disliked every OTHER army with a newer (and more powerful) codex, they have no grounds for disliking the Tau.

Bullshit. The Tau were introduced back in 2001. The new IG codex isn't even a year old. That's saying the last nine years don't matter when it comes to forming an opinion on the Tau, only the last five months do.

As for the Tau being technologically advanced and therefore more awesome than "retarded" armies, that's also bullshit. The Imperium's society isn't technologically or scientifically orientated, but they're standing at the head of tens of millenia of technological development. The Ad Mech may be riddled with superstition, but it still produces developments and innovations (psyk out weaponry, hellfire rounds, and power armour have all improved since the Heresy). The Tau have had a technological society for six millenia and their toys outperform Eldar and Necron gear as well as Astartes gear. So that argument doesn't hold water. If an army got uber gear based on the supposed technological prowess of the society Eldar, Dark Eldar, Astartes, and Necrons would all have far better shooty gear than the Tau and they don't in the table top game. The Tau are disliked for being an exception to the rule. If they were merely better than the IG, it wouldn't bother that many people. That's also why they don't bother me that much, since I don't play the table top game and just mug my Deathwatch players with Stealth Suits and Firewarriors.

Errm, why are you guys arguing about mechanics in relation to fluff? Fluffwise a pulse weapon is only a little better then a lasgun and shuriken weapons can punch threw SM armor in a single volley(Innocence Proves Nothing) and bloody near take a SM's arm off.(Lord of the Night)

Because its relevant to why players hate the Tau (i.e. the Tau have super guns and steal their niche).

[lPeregrine]

There is no fluff establishing the Tau gun to be superior to its eldar equivalent. The Tau are shootier due to game balance (IE, if they weren't the best at it, they'd have nothing to recommend them) not because their guns necessarily are the best in the actual background. All Tau stats should thus be taken under advisement as potentially inaccurate because to make them playable, the game needs to make them suck at everything but shooting, and be real good at that.

Obviously game stats are somewhat questionable (though I would argue that they at least establish a relative ranking), the argument of Tau gun superiority was just a response to the complaint that having a better gun in the game than the Eldar is a reason to hate the Tau. If you want the stats to mean something instead of just saying "it's only game balance, who cares", then there's an easy fluff explanation for how a specific Tau gun can do more damage than a specific Eldar gun.

Tyranids are not technologically backwards, and nor, really, are orks. Orks can build titan-scale teleporters, after all.

How are Tyranids NOT technologically backwards? They're driven by instinct instead of a legitimate understanding of technology, and they only survive at all because the fluff authors hate biologists and want them to suffer. I don't consider magically absorbing the DNA (no matter how stupid an idea this is) of their victims to be in any way the same as understanding the laws of physics and using that knowledge to design the required technology.


As for the Orks, they're comic relief. They may get lucky and occasionally make something that's more dangerous to the enemy than to the Orks, but having the collective psychic power to will a pile of scrap into functioning as a weapon is not the same thing as having advanced technology.

[lPeregrine]

Bullshit. The Tau were introduced back in 2001. The new IG codex isn't even a year old. That's saying the last nine years don't matter when it comes to forming an opinion on the Tau, only the last five months do.

Sure the past nine years matter, it's just that the only reason the Tau "stole"* anything from the IG is GW's well-known policy of making each new codex better than the last one. Tau were new, IG were overdue for an update, and that's all. It's just stupid to single out the Tau for hatred when your only real complaint is that GW didn't update your codex soon enough.



*The only thing Tau and IG have in common is that they are both shooting armies, otherwise they are fundamentally very different.

The Imperium's society isn't technologically or scientifically orientated, but they're standing at the head of tens of millenia of technological development.

And your point is? Rate of development matters too, not just time.

If an army got uber gear based on the supposed technological prowess of the society Eldar, Dark Eldar, Astartes, and Necrons would all have far better shooty gear than the Tau and they don't in the table top game. The Tau are disliked for being an exception to the rule.

Repeat after me: game balance.

It's a fundamental rule of balance in 40k that shooting and assault power are a zero-sum game, if you're good at one it comes at the expense of the other. Not only are Tau not an exception to the rule at all, they follow the rule precisely in their pathetic stats in the assault phase. The only people who don't get this are the marine fanboys who whine and cry that other armies can do things better than them.

[NecronLord]

How are Tyranids NOT technologically backwards? They're driven by instinct instead of a legitimate understanding of technology, and they only survive at all because the fluff authors hate biologists and want them to suffer. I don't consider magically absorbing the DNA (no matter how stupid an idea this is) of their victims to be in any way the same as understanding the laws of physics and using that knowledge to design the required technology.

Err, the hive mind is a sapient entity, and designs its designer organisms.

As for the Orks, they're comic relief. They may get lucky and occasionally make something that's more dangerous to the enemy than to the Orks, but having the collective psychic power to will a pile of scrap into functioning as a weapon is not the same thing as having advanced technology.

Their technology actually functions, it's not all run on wishes and fairydust, some of it is, yes, but they do actually make things that work, albeit unreliably, you know.

[lPeregrine]

Err, the hive mind is a sapient entity, and designs its designer organisms.

Consciously designed from the beginning, or "designed" through a combination of stealing from existing organisms and just throwing brute force natural selection at the problem? I was under the impression that the Tyranids relied on the very wasteful approach of having such massive numbers that you can't kill all of them before the hive mind's trial and error produces something that works?

Their technology actually functions, it's not all run on wishes and fairydust, some of it is, yes, but they do actually make things that work, albeit unreliably, you know.

True, but by "technologically backwards" I'm referring to the attitudes towards technology, not to any specific item. By that standard, I think Orks as a whole are backwards.

[IvanTih]

Orks may be backwards in some areas,but they have best force fields and their tech works because of the awesome factor.
Meh,one of the main reason why I dislike Tau is the industrial amount of plot armor they require to be alive.

[PainRack]

Consciously designed from the beginning, or "designed" through a combination of stealing from existing organisms and just throwing brute force natural selection at the problem? I was under the impression that the Tyranids relied on the very wasteful approach of having such massive numbers that you can't kill all of them before the hive mind's trial and error produces something that works?

both? The 4th Edt Codex had the Nids "adapting" against the Tau weaponery and tactics by adjusting their armour, weight and speed of creatures.

[Ryan Thunder]

As for how the Tau stack up the IG as massed firepower armies, I can't really say other than all the IG players I've talked to believe the Tau moved in on their territory and took it away. Whether or not that perception is true I can't say, but it is one of the reasons that they're annoyed.

Well, that's ridiculous. I can kill a Guard player's tanks pretty easily, but he's still got far more flexibility in terms of what he can field from nearly any way you look at it. Which is pretty ironic, actually.

There is no fluff establishing the Tau gun to be superior to its eldar equivalent. The Tau are shootier due to game balance (IE, if they weren't the best at it, they'd have nothing to recommend them) not because their guns necessarily are the best in the actual background. All Tau stats should thus be taken under advisement as potentially inaccurate because to make them playable, the game needs to make them suck at everything but shooting, and be real good at that.

Oh come on. You're bitching because they equipped their infantry squads with nothing but what amounts to anti-tank rifles. Because they hit harder than more technologically advanced nations' assault rifles.

They're just equipped differently. It's nothing to do with "tech level" at all.

Ok, fine, Eldar are technologically advanced. That still leaves the Imperium (which are by far the majority of 40k players and armies), Tyranids, Orks and Chaos that are technologically backwards.

Tyranids are not technologically backwards, and nor, really, are orks. Orks can build titan-scale teleporters, after all.

Out of scraps, no less.

Ork shit does run on pixie dust, though. I mean, shootaz explode if a non-ork uses them. Vehicles go faster if they're painted red, etc.