Trek Fleet counts

[fallendragon]

Picard are you for real?

Death Star 1
A) of course he couldn't have been making a hyperbole about how hard the shot would be.
B) he couldn't have expected that a battle station that important would have jamming on it either
C) Han's sensors instantly detected that the death star was a space station, right?

Death Star 2
what part of it wasn't finished yet is so hard for you to understand?

Destructionator XIII, please tell me the last time startrek hit 2 meters at anything resembling range, or even took a visual only shot with the torpedos?

[Stofsk]

The only way that could make sense is if it screwed with navigation. That is, they couldn't trust the computer to assist, so they had to go slowly enough to fly by naked eye and hand control.

Perhaps not. A theory to explain what the 'jamming' actually is would be to combine it with tractor beams as well as e-war stuff that effects navigational readings. Tractor beams are invisible in Star Wars, that's why we don't see any sort of beam when the Tantive IV was snagged nor when the Falcon got grabbed. Having an array of tractor beams that are set to a kind of 'wide-beam' coverage would explain decreased fighter manoeuvrability without giving visual effects.

[Stofsk]

Destructionator XIII, please tell me the last time startrek hit 2 meters at anything resembling range, or even took a visual only shot with the torpedos?

Lol ok - 'The Changeling' the Enterprise fires a photon torpedo at a <2m long object at 90,000 km distant in ~5 seconds.

And they hit it too!

[Kythnos]

The novelization makes it quite clear that there was jamming so heavy it even affected engine performance.

The only way that could make sense is if it screwed with navigation. That is, they couldn't trust the computer to assist, so they had to go slowly enough to fly by naked eye and hand control.

I know this is way down the canon scale but it does have some value to this discussion:

From West End Games About the Jamming systems on the Millennium Falcon:

The first time it was used , the pulse was so powerful that it also jammed the Falcon's internal communications, disrupting the signals from the cockpit to the ships systems.

[fallendragon]

Destructionator XIII, please tell me the last time startrek hit 2 meters at anything resembling range, or even took a visual only shot with the torpedos?

Lol ok - 'The Changeling' the Enterprise fires a photon torpedo at a <2m long object at 90,000 km distant in ~5 seconds.

And they hit it too!

my apoligies


Destructionator XIII
size of weapons, and how do you know they don't take out relays to weapons?

[Srelex]

Lol ok - 'The Changeling' the Enterprise fires a photon torpedo at a <2m long object at 90,000 km distant in ~5 seconds.

And they hit it too!

What about all the countless instances in TNG and beyond where they missed at embarassingly short range?

Edit:clarification.

[Serafina]

And why it can't blow it up after that? From what I remember from both novelization and movie, Rebels flew inside Death Star throught same vent that destroyed DSI (OK, this one was several times wider).

You are evidently a mindless idiot who can't even grasp the most basic english sentence, or whose mind is unable to grasp concepts a 3-year old would get instantly.
I repeatedly told you that that "shaft" was there because the second Death Star was UNFINISHED. The design of the second Death Star specifically REMOVED that heat vent and replaced it with millions of millimeter-wide vents which would not cause such a catastrophic failure.
That is evident when watching the movie as well - the Rebels had to attack because it was their only chance, they expected the DS II to be not functional, the Emperor (supposedly, it was a ruse) visited because it was not finished yet and he wanted to oversee the rest of the work, so did Darth Vader. It was a major plot-point. Your probably also missed the point where the entire thing was an elaborate trap for the rebels and specifically Luke, so the shaft was obviously left open on purpose - there would be no reason to do that against the Federation.
You are either a god-damn idiot, willfully ignorant (in which case you are still an idiot) - or most likely both. You are clinging at your idiocy as a form of argument, even tough that's even more piss-poor than the rest of your mindless wank.

So - when they fight the operational DS-II, the Federation has to fight a heavily armored, heavily shielded battlestation with a diameter of 900 km and armed with more guns than the entire Alpha quadrant. They would have to defeat it within mere minutes, simply because the DS II can jump to hyperspace after that if it wants to.
Even with your wank-Numbers, simple scaling makes the DS II orders of magnitudes more powerful than the entirety of Starfleet - and all you get are, at best, parts of it, because your speed just sucks and you have your entire space to defend.
The second Death Star would utterly crush your pathetic Federation into tiny, bloody pieces, even if we grant you your made-up numbers. There is nothing they can do against it.

[Stofsk]

Lol ok - 'The Changeling' the Enterprise fires a photon torpedo at a <2m long object at 90,000 km distant in ~5 seconds.

And they hit it too!

What about all the countless instances in TNG and beyond where they missed at embarassingly short range?

I blame that shit on DS9

[Picard]

900 km

160 kilometers.

more guns than the entire Alpha quadrant.

With each gun on level of single type-IV phaser emitter.

even if we grant you your made-up numbers.

You might like it or not, but my numbers are based on canon.

so the shaft was obviously left open on purpose

Fail. They could have closed that shaft - they only needed Rebels NEAR DSII, not INSIDE it. Unless purpose was to allow Rebels to destroy Death Star. If that was case, then it was achieved with spectacular success. Or they simply thought they were invincible - which is logical, considering Palpatine's original plan was to capture entire strike team and then destroy Rebel fleet from inside its "invincible" shield - pity he did not take local teddy bears into account.

The design of the second Death Star specifically REMOVED that heat vent and replaced it with millions of millimeter-wide vents which would not cause such a catastrophic failure.

Source? It is not mentioned in (G) canon. Plus Federation has interphase cloak - place it on runabout and you don't even need to find that vent to blow up reactor. (Defiant or Sovereign class would do equally well, but that is already overkill).

[Serafina]

160 kilometers.

Wrong, retard. The second Death Star had a diameter of 900 km. You obviously don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

With each gun on level of single type-IV phaser emitter.

As per you saying so. Not that it matters, since it only needs the superlaser. I see you are ignoring my main argument again, and are focusing on nitpicks instead.

You might like it or not, but my numbers are based on canon.

Your numbers are based on ignorance of canon you don't like, idiocy, lies and misinterpretations.

Fail. They could have closed that shaft - they only needed Rebels NEAR DSII, not INSIDE it. Unless purpose was to allow Rebels to destroy Death Star. If that was case, then it was achieved with spectacular success. Or they simply thought they were invincible - which is logical, considering Palpatine's original plan was to capture entire strike team and then destroy Rebel fleet from inside its "invincible" shield - pity he did not take local teddy bears into account.

So, do you have any evidence that that shaft was supposed to be there when the second Death Star was finished?
Oh, right - you don't even know the meaning of basic english words, likely including "evidence". Instead, you are just speculating mindlessly.

Source? It is not mentioned in (G) canon. Plus Federation has interphase cloak - place it on runabout and you don't even need to find that vent to blow up reactor. (Defiant or Sovereign class would do equally well, but that is already overkill).

Ah, phasecloak-wanking. The phase-cloak has NEVER demonstrated the capability to penetrate high-density materials. You are just using a no-limits fallacy.
Not to mention that they don't have the phase-cloak anymore, that only a single prototype was ever built and that that prototype failed utterly. If they were capable of deploying it, don't you think they would have used in the Dominion-war or against the Borg?
Besides - the phase cloak was not perfect. People affected by a phase-cloak were still able to breathe - in other words, they were still interacting with their chemical environment. They were still affected by gravity - in other words, a tractor beam would stop any phase-cloaked ship cold, and SW-tractor beams have a much longer range than ST-tractor beams (and with opposing tractor beams, you could pull it apart mechanically). Even worse, people affected by a phase cloak were still able to SEE, so they obviously interacted with photons.
But no - you are a mindless wanker, and incapable of analysis. Thus, you only see the claim that it "stops you from interacting with the normal universe", without seeing that that claim is obviously not true.

And last but not least - the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the second Death Star had the same vulnerability than the first Death Star. Especially since we have G-canon evidence that is compatible with the removal of said weakness (the fact that it was the rebels best chance, which would not be the case when it had the same weakness).


Basically:
Just more asspulls, ignorance and wanking. You have done nothing to address my argument, or even defend your own claims.

[Picard]

Wrong, retard. The second Death Star had a diameter of 900 km. You obviously don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

I do have (unlike you). I scaled physical model, and it is 160 kilometers.

As per you saying so. Not that it matters, since it only needs the superlaser. I see you are ignoring my main argument again, and are focusing on nitpicks instead.

Then why you were bringing up these guns anyway?

Your numbers are based on ignorance of canon you don't like, idiocy, lies and misinterpretations.

Ahhh... my numbers are based on G-canon. You might like it or not, but that is fact. And don't wank about misinterpretation - I know it is easiest to accuse people of doing something yo do regularly, but discussion doesn't work that way.

So, do you have any evidence that that shaft was supposed to be there when the second Death Star was finished?
Oh, right - you don't even know the meaning of basic english words, likely including "evidence". Instead, you are just speculating mindlessly.

Except it is not mindless speculation. Speculation, yes, but based on evidence.

Ah, phasecloak-wanking. The phase-cloak has NEVER demonstrated the capability to penetrate high-density materials. You are just using a no-limits fallacy.

Riight. First, prove me that SW armor is high-density. Second, prove me that it cannot penetrate high-density armor. Asteroid in "Pegasus" might not be high-density, but ship bulkheads are of tritanium, which IS high-density material.

Besides - the phase cloak was not perfect. People affected by a phase-cloak were still able to breathe - in other words, they were still interacting with their chemical environment. They were still affected by gravity - in other words, a tractor beam would stop any phase-cloaked ship cold, and SW-tractor beams have a much longer range than ST-tractor beams (and with opposing tractor beams, you could pull it apart mechanically). Even worse, people affected by a phase cloak were still able to SEE, so they obviously interacted with photons.

Affected by Romulan phase cloak.

But no - you are a mindless wanker, and incapable of analysis. Thus, you only see the claim that it "stops you from interacting with the normal universe", without seeing that that claim is obviously not true.

Accusing people of your own traits. Nice.

And last but not least - the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the second Death Star had the same vulnerability than the first Death Star. Especially since we have G-canon evidence that is compatible with the removal of said weakness (the fact that it was the rebels best chance, which would not be the case when it had the same weakness).

We know they flew inside Death Star and blew it up. We know that for some reason they wanted to destroy it outright (fact that Emperor was personally overseeing construction was not unhelpful). And that is all.

Basically:
Just more asspulls, ignorance and wanking. You have done nothing to address my argument, or even defend your own claims.

Summing up your own posts?

[Serafina]

The phase-cloak has NEVER demonstrated the capability to penetrate high-density materials.

Seriously, have you even seen Star Trek before, or are you only capable of spitting back bullshit from Wong's canon database?

In "The Next Phase" they pass right through walls, computers, and one guy even passed right through the hull of the ship. You mentioned this episode below!

In "Pegasus" they pass through the asteroid, which would have had some degree of high density materials in it.


If you haven't actually seen the material, you need to shut the fuck up. It is tiring to constantly have to correct your extreme ignorance and unwillingness to learn.

And you missed the part about the "high-density material", didn't you?
Let's see - walls? Nope, not of extremely high density. Computers? Not high-density. Hull of the ship? Not bad, but how can you compare a relatively thin hull made with inferior material science to high-density SW-hulls? Asteroid? Nope, sorry, hollow low-density asteroid, in no way comparable to the hull of the Death Star.

So yes - i DO know what i am talking about (granted, i don't watch much Star Trek, so i am relying on scripts and Memory Alpha in addition to a few excellent analyses). You, however, aren't - you are using the same no-limits fallacy as Picard.
The upper limit we saw (for ships) was the Pegasus-asteroid. It was a rocky, non-metallic, partially hollow asteroid (of course, you automatically assume otherwise). Everything else beyond that is mere speculation, and goes into no-limits territory. We also saw that this "phasing" is not 100% perfect, since phase-cloaked things still interacted with light, gravity and even with chemicals!
Under such circumstances, it's simply baseless to assume that SF-ships with the no-longer existing phasecloak can effortlessly penetrate the thick, ultra-dense hull of the Death Star.

But really, i give you a + for nice wanking and ranting - you have slightly more class than Picard.. Then again, you get 0 points for effort, since you ignored the "high-density" part entirely.

Oh, and it's nice to see that you call me out on "errors" that are purely based on your poor grasp of semantics, but that you ignore the obvious errors made by Picard (such as the size of DS II). You are quite fair and balanced on this issue

[Picard]

And you missed the part about the "high-density material", didn't you?

No, he did not. ST hulls are considerably denser than SW hulls. Tritanium is definetly high-density material, and we know it is used at very least in bulkheads - and almost definetly in ship's hulls too.

(such as the size of DS II).

It is not error. And you wishing that reality changes will do nothing to actually change it.

[Junghalli]

Let's see - walls? Nope, not of extremely high density.

Is there any particular reason to think the density of a material would have anything to do with whether you could phase through it?

[Picard]

Let's see - walls? Nope, not of extremely high density.

Is there any particular reason to think the density of a material would have anything to do with whether you could phase through it?

Except Serafina wishing it to be so... no.

[Serafina]

I do have (unlike you). I scaled physical model, and it is 160 kilometers.

Too bad that you are, yet again, WRONG - official, canon-sources give 900 km. And again, you appeal to work you do not show (you can't reasonably expect people to search trough your poorly-made blog). And last but not least, the second Death Star was obviously larger than the first one.
Besides, as i have said so often - you can't just ignore the EU. That's of course a typical Trektard-tactic - ignoring the EU whenever it's convenient, claiming contradiction even when there is none.

Ahhh... my numbers are based on G-canon. You might like it or not, but that is fact. And don't wank about misinterpretation - I know it is easiest to accuse people of doing something yo do regularly, but discussion doesn't work that way.

"Based on". I will be generous and assume that you are again failing basic english. "Based on" means squat - because you simply fail to use proper logic, science or math. I can also base a movie on a "true story" and be entirely inaccurate.

Except it is not mindless speculation. Speculation, yes, but based on evidence.

What evidence? It's obvious that it is not finished yet. You have not even a shred of proof that that shaft was supposed to be there when it is finished.
Besides, labelling anything you say as mindless is almost a necessity, since you have not shown to possess even a shred of intelligence.

Riight. First, prove me that SW armor is high-density. Second, prove me that it cannot penetrate high-density armor. Asteroid in "Pegasus" might not be high-density, but ship bulkheads are of tritanium, which IS high-density material.

"Prove to me that it can not penetrate high-density armor"
Obviously, you do not understand logic - what you just said was a no-limits fallacy.

Affected by Romulan phase cloak.

Ah, so we can assume that the two work on an ENTIRELY different principle, right? Based on no evidence whatsoever?
Good, then we can dismiss the penetration of said "high-density" (no proof there) tritanium hull as well, right? (i might be mistaken here, Memory Alpha won't load properly)

We know they flew inside Death Star and blew it up. We know that for some reason they wanted to destroy it outright (fact that Emperor was personally overseeing construction was not unhelpful). And that is all.

We also know that it was unfinished. We also know that they had to destroy it right there, the Emperor being only part of that reason.
But as you said - there is not a shred of proof that the newer, far larger second Death Star had the same design flaw as the first Death Star.


Again - you don't present a shred of proof for any of your claims. You just repeat your claims. Your arguments are not only wrong, but you also SUCK at arguing. You are presenting the classic "wall of ignorance" - you ignore the EU when you want, you ignore your opponents arguments when you want, you ignore the need to back up your claims when you want.
But go ahead - present evidence that
-that your scaling of the second Death Star is accurate
-that the shaft they used to fly into it was supposed to be there after it was finished
-that the Federation phase cloak can still be built
-that the Federation phase cloak can penetrate a kilometer-thick dense hull of a heavily shielded vessel
-that a phase-cloaked ship is not affected by gravity or chemical reactions
-that such a vessel would be capable of engaging and destroying the Death Star within minutes, before it goes to hyperspace

Of course, even then you would still be fucked - because the Empire has other super-weapons, and the Superlaser can be scaled down radically. And because your numbers are still made-up.

[Kythnos]

With each gun on level of single type-IV phaser emitter.

Would you mind showing me the numbers for a "type-IV Phaser emitter? What episode it was used in and how much damage it did? (list episode, time index and important dialog
Also list where you got the figures for the power of the Death Stars turbo-laser cannons for comparison?

You might like it or not, but my numbers are based on canon.

Can you list those "canon" episodes and give a decent time index for them? So far you listed nothing that truly proves your point. (and no the episode "Die is Cast" does not prove anything) Every time you bring this up you just say it is canon but do not show where you are getting the numbers from. You are obviously overestimating Trek and underestimating Star Wars but just because it is what you want does not make it true. In addition when people ask for canon evidence you ignore them and make some other unsupported claim, like a very good but sadly very stupid troll.
So give canon scenes that provide a comparison and prove your point.

[Serafina]

Let's see - walls? Nope, not of extremely high density.

Is there any particular reason to think the density of a material would have anything to do with whether you could phase through it?

Is there any reason that it has NOTHING to do with it?
Phased-cloaked matter is still interacting with matter around it - with photons, gravity and electrons (chemically). I see no reason why we should believe the claim that it can penetrate anything regardless of properties, since there is not a shred of proof for it.

No, he did not. ST hulls are considerably denser than SW hulls. Tritanium is definetly high-density material, and we know it is used at very least in bulkheads - and almost definetly in ship's hulls too.

Ah, right
Let's see - any evidence? Oh, right - just another claim.
Add that to the list of evidence i demanded above.

Besides, it's fucking obvious that SW-material science is way more advanced than ST-material science. ST-ships can be destroyed by flimsy physical impacts, while the asteroid-impact on the Star Destroyer in the asteroid field only destroyed (which is questionable) the weakest part of the ship). SW can built kilometer-high skyscrapers, and they can built ships with a diameter of 900 kilometer - in comparison, the Federation doesn't have a single ship larger than a kilometer, even tough bigger ships are routinely shown to be more powerful (such as some Dominion starships).

Besides - even if we discard hull density (which i don't Picard is still without proof), is there ANY proof that they can penetrate shields? Is there any reason to assume that they can penetrate SW-shields, which do not have a frequency-vulnerability.

[Kythnos]

No, he did not. ST hulls are considerably denser than SW hulls. Tritanium is definetly high-density material, and we know it is used at very least in bulkheads - and almost definetly in ship's hulls too.

Where do you get that ST hulls are "considerably denser" than SW hulls?
SW ships have meters thick armor. Which is how dense?

How dense is "Tritanium"? Bulkhead equals "hull" how? The only fact you have is that the Hull of a trek ship is at most a foot or 2 thick. So you add in the "fact" that you want them better than SW so it must be better. In fact ST ships use "structural integrity field" to prevent the hull from breaching. So where is your proof of that.

[Picard]

Too bad that you are, yet again, WRONG - official, canon-sources give 900 km. And again, you appeal to work you do not show (you can't reasonably expect people to search trough your poorly-made blog). And last but not least, the second Death Star was obviously larger than the first one.

DSI is 120 kilometers. DSII is 160 km. And 900 km figure is inflated EU figure (don't think I did not check that link). And since you dismiss everything I bring up that does not agree with your idea of Star Wars, I suggest you do scaling yourself. It is simple - scale shuttle, then scale bay shuttle was entering, then scale trenh and after that scale Death Star.

ignoring the EU whenever it's convenient, claiming contradiction even when there is none.

And Warsie tactic of claiming that there is no contradiction even when contradiction is obvious?

"Based on". I will be generous and assume that you are again failing basic english. "Based on" means squat - because you simply fail to use proper logic, science or math. I can also base a movie on a "true story" and be entirely inaccurate.

I don't know what type of English you are using, but what I meant is that I analyzed canon and got numbers from that.

Besides, labelling anything you say as mindless is almost a necessity, since you have not shown to possess even a shred of intelligence.

Look who's talking.

Obviously, you do not understand logic - what you just said was a no-limits fallacy.

...you are so eager to use in order to dismiss arguments you can't defeat.

Ah, so we can assume that the two work on an ENTIRELY different principle, right? Based on no evidence whatsoever?

Warbird was completely unable to detect Enterprise passing throught asteroid. No traces of impulse engines, passage throught material etc.
They were still able to pass throught tritanium walls. Which ARE high-density. And few "footprints" will do nothing to help Death Star.

you ignore the EU when you want, you ignore your opponents arguments when you want, you ignore the need to back up your claims when you want.

You taught me well.

And because your numbers are still made-up.

Nice way of acknowledging that canon is against you. My numbers are derived from canon.

[Serafina]

DSI is 120 kilometers. DSII is 160 km. And 900 km figure is inflated EU figure (don't think I did not check that link). And since you dismiss everything I bring up that does not agree with your idea of Star Wars, I suggest you do scaling yourself. It is simple - scale shuttle, then scale bay shuttle was entering, then scale trenh and after that scale Death Star.

I see you still did not post any calculations. So yes - just another claim, no evidence. Oh, and the usual dismissal of the EU.
Furthermore - that's STILL massively more than anything the Federation has ever built. Simply crashing the damn thing into earth would work (not that they need to, since you are still ignoring superlaser-firepower).

I don't know what type of English you are using, but what I meant is that I analyzed canon and got numbers from that.

Yes - you analyzed part of the canon, and you fucked it up. Simply basing it on canon doesn't guarantee that you get it right.

Warbird was completely unable to detect Enterprise passing throught asteroid. No traces of impulse engines, passage throught material etc.
They were still able to pass throught tritanium walls. Which ARE high-density. And few "footprints" will do nothing to help Death Star.

We know that ST-sensors suck and have a hard time picking up gravity. This is not true for SW-sensors.



I see you posted absolutely zero evidence and ignored my challenge to do so. You didn't address a single point on that list.
It's YOUR proposed tactic, so it's YOUR burden of proof that it works. You have done nothing - instead, you just went "they can penetrate an asteroid and walls, therefore they must be able to do so with everything!!" - that's a textbook no-limits fallacy. You are utterly ignoring that the wall was pretty thin (a few feet at most), and that the asteroid had a low density.
And again - POST YOUR DAMN EVIDENCE. You can't expect us to read your badly made blog in order to find it, it's your job to do so.

[Picard]

About Tritanium density... in "I, Borg" Data reads mass of small Borg scout as 2.5 million tonnes.

[Serafina]

high density materials

And you missed the part about the "high-density material", didn't you?

Learn to read, shithead.

Nice rebuttal

So - where did you address the "high-density" part? Here, let me quote your original post:

Seriously, have you even seen Star Trek before, or are you only capable of spitting back bullshit from Wong's canon database?

In "The Next Phase" they pass right through walls, computers, and one guy even passed right through the hull of the ship. You mentioned this episode below!

In "Pegasus" they pass through the asteroid, which would have had some degree of high density materials in it.


If you haven't actually seen the material, you need to shut the fuck up. It is tiring to constantly have to correct your extreme ignorance and unwillingness to learn.

You just posted a bunch of stuff they passed trough, assuming that i didn't know about it. You have done nothing to show that thin walls are comparable to kilometer-thick, dense material. Computers are certainly not high-density objects. The hull might or might not be dense relative to the DS-hull, but it's certainly many orders of magnitudes thinner.
You just assume that that asteroid contained high-density materials. Besides, even if we accept that claim, we already know that they can pass trough thin metal walls - but that does NOT mean that they can penetrate walls that are orders of magnitudes thicker.

So yes - i do NOT need to learn to read, since you did not address my point that the Death Star hull is likely far more denser than any material we saw it penetrate. You didn't even bother comparing material densities.

[fallendragon]

ummm for denisty being a factor the death of the USS Pegasus would, to me at least, seem to imply that matter at the very least does have an effect on it... which in turn would make sense that the more matter there is the greater the effect would be.


there is also the fact that the Enterprise used it only once successfully,while every other known atempt by the federation, klingons and romulans has ended in failure

Picard, didn't that ship crash into the planet?

[Serafina]

About Tritanium density... in "I, Borg" Data reads mass of small Borg scout as 2.5 million tonnes.

First of all - that is a BORG sphere. NOT a Federation ship.
Again, you fail utterly. Oh, and you did no math.
And given that that ship crashed on a planet, it would have caused absolutely catastrophic damage at that weight.