Trek Fleet counts

[Kythnos]

About Tritanium density... in "I, Borg" Data reads mass of small Borg scout as 2.5 million tonnes.

OK yes that number is impressive for a ship a few meters across and if it was all Tritanium it would make that very dense. Now just answer a few more questions:
Where do you see that the Borg use Tritanium?
Do we know the weight of the Engine, fuel, and Drive systems, or baring exact figures the weight of similar devices? (I am going to guess the ship in question has a transwarp drive system, and I know nothing about Borg fuel or power systems)

[fallendragon]

You have done nothing to show that thin walls are comparable to kilometer-thick, dense material.

We saw them pass through many kilometers of rock in the ship (which, statistically, will include some amount of iron and other heavy metals). We saw them pass through several meters of starship material on foot. (and yes I realize the realism problems with ghosts, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief)

My god, it's like having to spell out that 1+1 = 2.[/quote]

really? i only remember a few meters of rock.

and when did anyone go through the hull? i remember a few interier walls but nothing meters across.

[Serafina]

Just how stupid are you? The entire post was addressing high density, giving examples of starship hulls, bulkheads, consoles and naturally occurfing iron.

Yes, you listed a bunch of stuff. So what? You gave no evidence about it's density.

We saw them pass through many kilometers of rock in the ship (which, statistically, will include some amount of iron and other heavy metals). We saw them pass through several meters of starship material on foot. (and yes I realize the realism problems with ghosts, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief)

Yes - ROCK (the trace amounts of metal is a red herring). Not thick armor. There is a severe difference there, which you are apparently unable to grasp.

But go ahead - perhaps you are willing to give some evidence:
-How does the density of the hulls and walls they penetrated compare to the density of SW-hulls?
-How does the density of rock compare to that of SW-hulls?
Go ahead. You seem to have a clear-cut answer here, and it's your burden of proof. Present some actual evidence.

My god, it's like having to spell out that 1+1 = 2.

Yes, it is.
So they can penetrate a thin layer of dense material - does that mean that they can penetrate a thick layer of dense material?
So they can penetrate a thick layer of low-density material - does that mean that they can penetrate a thick layer of dense material?
But hey, let's compare that to a real-life phenomenon - radiation. Lot's of radiation can penetrate thin layers of high-density material and thick layers of low-density - but not thick layers of high-density material. Now, the phase cloak might or might not be based on radiation - but this is an analogy. You can't just assume that something can pass a thick layer of dense material just because it can do so when just one of those criteria is fulfilled.

[fallendragon]

i only remember a few meters of rock.

Oh sure, the Enterprise moves no faster than I can walk. Nope, they even said it was more in the dialog:

WORF
We have passed through two
kilometers of the asteroid... now
within one kilometer of the
surface.

and when did anyone go through the hull?

That Romulan guy they were fighting.


67 NEW ANGLE (OPTICAL)

But Geordi drops his shoulder and nails Parem with a
body tackle before he can turn the disruptor on Geordi.
The impact makes Parem DROP the disruptor and KNOCKS
him backwards... THROUGH THE WALL and out into SPACE.
Through the window, we see him FLOAT away into space.

i remember a few interier walls but nothing meters across.

They'd run from one side of the ship to the other, including through walls that don't have corrodors behind them. No one instance might be that big, but the total run is certainly more than that.

3=many?
shit your right, my bad,

including through walls that don't have corrodors behind them

? that i don't remember still, and find interesting to be perfectly honest

[Junghalli]

Is there any reason that it has NOTHING to do with it?

It's magic that somehow lets you ignore the normal forces that keep you from passing through solid objects. It doesn't appear to expend energy to let you move through stuff, so there's no reason to think there's some straightforward relationship between the density of a material and how hard it is to move through.

Granted as I remember there was an episode where somebody was cloaked in such a manner, and they didn't fall through the floor, which could be consistent with the floor being denser than walls or people, hence dense materials are harder to pass through.

I see no reason why we should believe the claim that it can penetrate anything regardless of properties, since there is not a shred of proof for it.

It doesn't necessarily have to. "We don't know if it'll be able to penetrate denser SW armor" is a distinct and different position from "it will probably be useless against stuff with Wars armor". The latter position can't be taken without some estimation of its upper limits, and in the absence of evidence there's no particular reason that Wars armor = impenetrable to phase cloaked stuff should be the default assumption.

[Serafina]

So - you are just assuming that it has no limits?
That's my whole problem with that - both of our Trekkies are assuming that there are no limits to the phase cloak - no shields, no material density, no radiation, no tractor beams, no nothing.

Even if we assume that density plays no role at all (no evidence here), then there are still lot's of ways and reasons it might not work - even if we assume that they have a working example and can mass-produce it.
The latter is worthy of investigation - we know that the Klingons experimented with it at one point, and failed for unknown reasons. We know that the Romulans experimented with it, and that it didn't work (and IIRC, the ship was heavily damaged). We know that the Federation experimented with it, and that it eventually killed everyone onboard the Pegasus - and it threatened to "blow out the plasma-conduits" on Enterprise when installed.
That's it - it's pretty clear that it is not a safe, proven piece of technology. No one in the Alpha Quadrant (or anywhere else as far as we know) uses them. Everyone who experimented with them apparently stopped doing so.

Assuming that they can re-start the project and build dozens of these things within a few weeks or months, while removing the flaws, is just utterly implausible.

[fallendragon]

Is there any reason that it has NOTHING to do with it?

It's magic that somehow lets you ignore the normal forces that keep you from passing through solid objects. It doesn't appear to expend energy to let you move through stuff, so there's no reason to think there's some straightforward relationship between the density of a material and how hard it is to move through.

Granted as I remember there was an episode where somebody was cloaked in such a manner, and they didn't fall through the floor, which could be consistent with the floor being denser than walls or people, hence dense materials are harder to pass through.

I see no reason why we should believe the claim that it can penetrate anything regardless of properties, since there is not a shred of proof for it.

It doesn't necessarily have to. "We don't know if it'll be able to penetrate denser SW armor" is a distinct and different position from "it will probably be useless against stuff with Wars armor". The latter position can't be taken without some estimation of its upper limits, and in the absence of evidence there's no particular reason that Wars armor = impenetrable to phase cloaked stuff should be the default assumption.

ummm actaully the death of the USS Pegasus seems to indecate that it DOES take more energy to pass through things, however i have to agree that the default mode being it cant get through armor seems a little off to me. having said that the alpha quadrent versions have all proven highly unrelayible at best (feds have the best record, it works on fully HALF the ships with out major acendents) but as it has not been used since and there are solid reasons for a lack of new testing it would at best be a rare last ditch item, not standard gear

[Kythnos]

It doesn't necessarily have to. "We don't know if it'll be able to penetrate denser SW armor" is a distinct and different position from "it will probably be useless against stuff with Wars armor". The latter position can't be taken without some estimation of its upper limits, and in the absence of evidence there's no particular reason that Wars armor = impenetrable to phase cloaked stuff should be the default assumption.

I agree still the sensors on the Enterprise still detected the Warbird and responded to the rock blocking off the entrance of the cave so some form of energy still reacts with both normal matter and "phased" matter. The implication from the name shows this, Phase-Cloak has if there was 2 devices in one, if it was truly untouchable by energy the Phase device would be all that was needed as the light would not bounce off the ship.

[Junghalli]

So - you are just assuming that it has no limits?

No, I'm objecting to the notion that it should be assumed to have trouble with Star Wars armor when no compelling evidence has been presented suggesting that this would be the case.

ummm actaully the death of the USS Pegasus seems to indecate that it DOES take more energy to pass through things

I had the impression the Pegasus phase cloak suffered some kind of spontaneous failure, not one related to any strain of moving through the asteroid. Been a while since I watched the episode though, and the evidence is probably ambiguous on that note.

I agree still the sensors on the Enterprise still detected the Warbird and responded to the rock blocking off the entrance of the cave so some form of energy still reacts with both normal matter and "phased" matter. The implication from the name shows this, Phase-Cloak has if there was 2 devices in one, if it was truly untouchable by energy the Phase device would be all that was needed as the light would not bounce off the ship.

Yeah, if memory serves I think it's pretty obvious it's not a "put you in a totally seperate bubble universe" type device. If it were it'd probably be a lot less useful for the most part.

[fallendragon]

that is some truely interesting timeing if it was merely spontaneous

[Junghalli]

that is some truely interesting timeing if it was merely spontaneous

Not necessarily. It might have been a prolonged test that involved them hanging out inside the asteroid for some time. Or the device might have had some flaw that caused it to fail within a few seconds of being turned on, during a short test. Wasn't there supposedly some kind of mutiny on the ship too? Maybe some critical system somewhere was interrupted during the fighting.

[Serafina]

As for evidence that the phase cloak can't just automatically phase trough everything:

RIKER: The cloak appears to be functioning normally. The ship's matter/energy phasing rate should be sufficient to pass through the asteroid.

Destructionator is probably going to whine that i just copy from Mike, but who cares? I am just using his database to get dialogue.

Anyway, the quote above says that they have a "phasing rate", and that it is "sufficient" to pass trough the asteroid.
Now, that implies that they just don't "phase", and that it's either on or off.
Furthermore, the "rate" could be related to three things:
-the amount of material they need to pass trough. However, that appears to be unlikely, since they should speak about "capacity" or the like, not about a rate.
-the speed with which they can pass trough matter. However, that is unlikely, since they could just take their time, and they are not talking about speed.
-The density of the material they need to pass trough. This makes more sense than both explanations, and also fits with the statement about the asteroid.

So, let's explore the third explanation. It actually makes sense that it is more difficult to pass trough dense materials - you have fewer "gaps" trough which you can squeeze your own matter. If we use that mechanism (that "phasing" means that you squeeze your atoms trough the empty space in matter), then it's also easier to phase a less-dense material trough something - it would be easier to get flesh trough metal than to get metal trough metal. If that is actually the case, then the capabiltiy of humans to pass trough walls does not necessarily imply that a starship could pass trough the same walls.
Basically, this means that the maximum we see a starship-hull pass trough (assuming that it is the most dense part of the ship) is rock. The maximum we saw less-dense human being pass trough is a starship hull.
We can not conclude that a starship-hull would be able to pass trough another starship-hull.

If we use that explanation, then the amount of material they have to pass trough might not matter, they just need to contain a continuous rate. However, the generator might be under continuous stress while passing trough a dense material, since it needs to work at higher capacity. We don't know it's limits either way, but a limit of some kind would fit with the quote above.




Even if we disregard my entire explanation, we still do not know which "phasing rate" they can achieve, and whether or not it would be sufficient to pass trough the Deathstars hull. Given that the incident where humans were phased was based on an accident, we can not conclude that they are similar - that incident might have had a higher phasing rate.

[fallendragon]

Junghalli if it wasn't drifting for a while at the time i would find that a better arguement (but yes the warp core was shot out and exploded(ya that is a real shocker )) but neither my memory nore memory alpha give RECENT damage, in fact memory alpha has the hull drifted before unphasing in the Asteroid gamma 601

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Asteroid_gamma_601

[Junghalli]

Junghalli if it wasn't drifting for a while at the time i would find that a better arguement (but yes the warp core was shot out and exploded(ya that is a real shocker )) but neither my memory nore memory alpha give RECENT damage, in fact memory alpha has the hull drifted before unphasing in the Asteroid gamma 601

It's been a while since I've watched any Trek. That is a heck of a coincidence, yeah. It could be consistent with the idea that passing through material creates strain on the cloak. Alternately, maybe it got captured by the asteroid's gravity, pulled into its core, and just stayed there until the cloak failed later. If it was co-orbiting with what as I remember was a pretty dense asteroid field its relative velocity to the roids would probably have been pretty low.

[Vympel]

160 kilometers.

No, shithead. 900km. That is derived from the films themselves (the DS2 compared to the planet), back stage information confirming that scaling is the correct one, and the EU which has been updated to reflect same. Your scaling from the trench is invalid because we know from the EU that it is just one trench within a single 'super trench' (Inside the Worlds - OT).

I've had quite enough of your bullshit. You will obey the rules of this forum in so far as canon is concerned. If you persist, you will be banned.

[takemeout_totheblack]

See you later Picard, it's been fun. If you're lucky they may make a show trial out of you, but they usually only save that for spectacular failures, you have just been re-hashing arguments, so bye!

Anyway, how dense is Tritanium and/or Duranium anyway? There's that midget Borg cube scout thing that weighs a whopping 2.5 megatons, but there's also the 'Picard's willy-extension' Enterprise-E, well over 650 meters long but is stated to be less than four megatons (or is it about 4 MMT? I'm not sure, I think it was stated in First Contact or something)

What would the realistic weight be for a ship that size made from a material suggested to be super-dense (Picard/Destructionator XIII)? I'd do it myself but my math is sorely lacking.

[fallendragon]

As for evidence that the phase cloak can't just automatically phase trough everything: [..]Furthermore, the "rate" could be related to three things:

Or, 4: the difficulty of passing through solid objects; if the magic phase wasn't good enough, they'd still impart a force to the object as they passed through it, and would thus also feel a counter force. (This is exactly what happened to Geordi and Ro near the end of "The Next Phase")

If that counter-force is big enough, it'd still feel like the ship was pushing its way into a wall, which would damage it.

Fully phased - solid objects don't feel like they exist so you pass right through them
Partially phased - solid objects feel like a thick liquid; you can push through them, but you feel some of the force
Not phased - solid objects feel like solid objects


There's no evidence that density has anything to do with it. It can be entirely explained by feeling a percentage of the force.

Umm wouldn't a percentage make more sense then a rate for that? Maybe I am not understanding you right, but Serafina's 3rd option is the most sensible to me right now.

[Batman]

There's no evidence that density has anything to do with it.

There's no evidence saying it doesn't either. If Picard wants to claim it doesn't matter, burden of proof is on it.

And while I don't remember any mass figures being given in FC (or any of the other Trek movies, at least WRT the mass of the big E), at a rough eyeball guesstimate (and that's all it is for now), a mass between 4 and 8 million tons would put the E-E's density at roughly the same as a modern day aircraft carrier, which aren't armoured worth shit and are limited by having to be able to float. So no ultradense hull material there, at least in any amounts worth mentioning.

[Kythnos]

Where do you see that the Borg use Tritanium?

I was able to find some information about Tritanium: (it is from Memory Alpha so take that as you may)

Tritanium is an ore that is known to be 21.4 times as hard as diamond.
Tritanium alloy was a widely-used construction material. The bulkheads of Federation starships, specifically of the Galaxy-class and Intrepid-class, were composed of tritanium.
Borg tactical drones possessed a tritanium infrastructure, as did Borg cubes.

I am going to guess that the term "Bulkhead" is referring to the Keel (or what I would call the "frame" of the ship). My knowledge of Nautical terms and there use is very limited.
It does not appear to mean that the "armor" of the ship was made of the same stuff. In addition the term "Alloy" means that the metal used in ship construction differed in some way from the ore, as other elements where mix in with it.

Do we know the weight of the Engine, fuel, and Drive systems, or baring exact figures the weight of similar devices? (I am going to guess the ship in question has a transwarp drive system, and I know nothing about Borg fuel or power systems)

I ask these questions because a if the Borg where using a "forced quantum singularity as a power source", like the Romulans, that would vastly increase the mass of their ship.

[Junghalli]

Anyway, how dense is Tritanium and/or Duranium anyway?

I think I remember Destructionator mentioning in another post that Mike Wong speculates duranium to be a term for depleted uranium somewhere, in which case Wikipedia tells me 19.1 grams/cm^3.

[Batman]

There's no evidence saying it doesn't either. If Picard wants to claim it doesn't matter, burden of proof is on it.

There's no evidence saying invisible pink unicorns aren't holding a gun to your head right now, forcing you to type such stupid shit. If you want to claim they aren't there, the burden of proof is on you.

No it is not. Incidentally, if the unicorns are invisible, how do you know they are pink?
The moment I claim density does affect the phase cloak, burden of proof absolutely is on me (or Serafina, if she is the one making that claim). We're not doing that. We're saying it might. Picard is the one saying that it positively does not and thus burden of proof is on it to show that density of material to to be phased through has no bearing on it.

And while I don't remember any mass figures being given in FC (or any of the other Trek movies, at least WRT the mass of the big E), at a rough eyeball guesstimate (and that's all it is for now), a mass between 4 and 8 million tons would put the E-E's density at roughly the same as a modern day aircraft carrier, which aren't armoured worth shit and are limited by having to be able to float. So no ultradense hull material there, at least in any amounts worth mentioning.

First off, the whole "ultradense" thing is irrelevant. Serafina is saying phase cloak works worse against higher density, and has shown nothing beyond a creative interpretation of Riker's one line to support this.

You have shown nothing period to contradict it.

If it works worse against higher density, we should see a difference between people and walls, for one example. No such difference was shown in any of the episodes. (Or if it was, nobody has presented it.)

Because-you say so. Yes, there maybe should be a difference. That doesn't mean it would be an easily noticeable one, especially as the whole phased matter idea is implemented inconsistently as hell anyway (not that Trekl is the only franchise guilty of this).

Whether the Enterprise has a superdense hull or not doesn't matter - there is no correlation between density and phase effectiveness seen at all.

There is nothing seen to contradict it either. Burden of proof is on the party that claims density doesn't matter.

Secondly, your logic is wrong. If the density of the ship overall is low, it doesn't necessarily mean the density of any one material is low. It could be that the Enterprise has big open air areas, like a lounge bridge, or wide hallways, or luxoriously large crew quarters, which serve to balance out its overall density.

Yeah. I mean we know modern day aircraft carriers are solid slabs of metal. They totally don't have bigass hangar decks, or corridors, or mess halls, or are actually made up mostly of empty space to begin with.
E-E has roughly (say, within an order of magnitude) the same density as a modern day CVN. It ISN'T virtually exclusively empty space. No ridiculously dense armour for the E-E.

[fallendragon]

USS Pegasus' death would seem to indecate some relationship, just due to where the cloak failed.

"RIKER: The cloak appears to be functioning normally. The ship's matter/energy phasing rate should be sufficient to pass through the asteroid." (by the way how do you do the quote thing?)
So it is on and working, then repeats that it is working?

And when did the "walls that don't have corrodors behind them" happen?

[Batman]

No it is not. Incidentally, if the unicorns are invisible, how do you know they are pink?

Someone told me about it on the Internet.

I forgot the freaking smiley again. I need to do something about this no sense of humour thing.

The moment I claim density does affect the phase cloak, burden of proof absolutely is on me (or Serafina, if she is the one making that claim). We're not doing that. We're saying it might.

Sure, and there might be an invisible pink unicorn licking my beautiful brunette locks.

Picard claims density has nothing to do with it. Burden of proof is on it.

You have shown nothing period to contradict it.

God FUCKING damn it, I'm sick and tired of you hatfuckers ignoring evidence. Is there some part of "no correlation has been seen" and "here's an alternative theory with evidence to support it" you guys don't get?
You could say "I'm unconvinced" but "nothing period" is flat out wrong.

No it's not, what with there not being any evidence to contradict it. ALL you've shown is there's an an alternative theory. Evidence would be the canon supporting that theory over the one presented by Serafina. So far, I notice a complete and utter lack of that.

If it works worse against higher density, we should see a difference between people and walls, for one example. No such difference was shown in any of the episodes. (Or if it was, nobody has presented it.)

Because-you say so.

wait what
Are you saying metal walls and people have equal density?

No?

If no, and if the phase cloak was affected by density, there should be a difference. This isn't rocket science.

As a matter of fact yes it is. And again there being a difference noticeable to the naked eye is your assumption.
That doesn't mean it would be an easily noticeable one, especially as the whole phased matter idea is implemented inconsistently as hell anyway (not that Trek is the only franchise guilty of this).

We're talking difference in density of nearly a full order of magnitude (~1 g/cc for ugly bags of mostly water vs ~8 g/cc for a steel bulkhead. Still a good 3-4x change if it is aluminum or titanium. If a difference existed, they should have felt that.)

Because...you say so. Phasing technology is inconsistent as hell as it is (they don't fall through the floor, they can still breathe, they can still see (yet somehow are invisible).

[fallendragon]

Granted it is MORE likely... but even astroid belts are more space then astroid to my knowledge and I have admited it could be just random timing,it is just if it is, it is an odd timing.

[quote=Destructionator XIII] Yeah, he's saying what matters to his immediate situation. Even if it were known to be true, he would say "to pass through the Doomsday Machine's neutronium hull" since the Doomsday Machine wasn't there.[/quote]
Ummm Huh? You totally lost me there. The "rate" and the "should" still make me lean towards Serafina's 3rd explaination of the quote, however I must say that the ship beingable to pass through, at the very least the outer hull, seems to be the most likely outcome to me right now, just not sure how far it can get in, nore its interaction with other systems.

Oh, and what, exactly, is the reason no one has brough up the shields yet?

[Batman]

Actually Serafina brought up shields repeatedly, Picard just chose to ignore it (as it did pretty much everything else, to nobody's surprise).