How fast is Tau railgun?

[Simon_Jester]

As for how the Tau stack up the IG as massed firepower armies, I can't really say other than all the IG players I've talked to believe the Tau moved in on their territory and took it away. Whether or not that perception is true I can't say, but it is one of the reasons that they're annoyed.

Well, that's ridiculous. I can kill a Guard player's tanks pretty easily, but he's still got far more flexibility in terms of what he can field from nearly any way you look at it. Which is pretty ironic, actually.

Not necessarily.

The Tau are a local, centralized power: their military equipment and doctrines are very standardized.

The Imperium is a galaxy-spanning civilization where travel times across its full volume are on the order of decades, with armies recruited and equipped from worlds that range from the Iron Age to giant city-planets full of sophisticated technobabble factories. There are hundreds of separate manufacturers of most military hardware, and all manner of high-end specialist hardware that is only produced in a few places but is nonetheless scattered across the galaxy because people have been producing it for thousands of years.

The Imperium should be more diverse than the Tau, in my opinion.

Oh come on. You're bitching because they equipped their infantry squads with nothing but what amounts to anti-tank rifles. Because they hit harder than more technologically advanced nations' assault rifles.

They're just equipped differently. It's nothing to do with "tech level" at all.

True, but problematic because in real life antitank rifles come with tradeoffs: they're heavy, they slow you down, you can't fire them accurately without a bipod mount or something, and they damn sure don't fire on full auto.

The Tau pulse rifle has all the advantages of a lasgun and none of the disadvantages.

[Vendetta]

The Tau pulse rifle has all the advantages of a lasgun and none of the disadvantages.

The disadvantage is that the Tau holding it fights like a schoolgirl when you get close to him, and most armies do have ways to do that.

[IvanTih]

The Tau pulse rifle has all the advantages of a lasgun and none of the disadvantages.

The disadvantage is that the Tau holding it fights like a schoolgirl when you get close to him, and most armies do have ways to do that.

Aren't Pulse rifles comparable to Lasguns in the terms of firepower(Kill Team comes to mind).

[Srelex]

The Tau pulse rifle has all the advantages of a lasgun and none of the disadvantages.

The disadvantage is that the Tau holding it fights like a schoolgirl when you get close to him, and most armies do have ways to do that.

Aren't Pulse rifles comparable to Lasguns in the terms of firepower(Kill Team comes to mind).

Depending on the source, they can either be the same or a magnitude above.

[Simon_Jester]

The Tau pulse rifle has all the advantages of a lasgun and none of the disadvantages.

The disadvantage is that the Tau holding it fights like a schoolgirl when you get close to him, and most armies do have ways to do that.

That is a disadvantage of the Tau vis a vis everyone else in the galaxy, not of the Tau pulse rifle vis a vis other people's standard infantry rifles. Tau with lasguns would fight just as much like schoolgirls, and would be much less effective at long range rifle combat.

So where's the tradeoff in terms of weaponry? Ryan said that NecronLord was "bitching because they equipped their infantry squads with nothing but what amounts to anti-tank rifles. Because they hit harder than more technologically advanced nations' assault rifles." And said that "They're just equipped differently. It's nothing to do with "tech level" at all."

If that were what was happening, there should be some tangible tradeoff- much as there would be if a real country equipped its infantry squads with nothing but antitank rifles. They'd suffer in terms of ammunition, rate of fire, mobility, and so on.

The Tau do not suffer in these ways; their basic infantry firearm is objectively better than that of the Imperium (including, as far as I know, Space Marine bolters). Now, I don't really have a serious problem with that myself, but I think it's at least worth identifying that this is going on and understanding why it's a complaint.

That strikes me as a flaw in Ryan's argument. Sure, you can say that the Tau get better guns just to balance their weakness in close combat. But that's not the same argument as "well, the Tau just happened to equip their troops with weapons that hit harder but are still not a sign of greater advancement."

Why not just come out and say that, whatever their relative merits, the Tau do seem to have a more sophisticated infantry rifle design than the Imperial Guard carry?

[Vendetta]

The Tau do not suffer in these ways; their basic infantry firearm is objectively better than that of the Imperium (including, as far as I know, Space Marine bolters). Now, I don't really have a serious problem with that myself, but I think it's at least worth identifying that this is going on and understanding why it's a complaint.

Except that they're a large unwieldy weapon which is unsuitable for close quarter fighting. And close quarter fighting happens far more in 40k than in sane realities.

Their tradeoff is that they are shit in assault. That's as true for the weapon as for the wielder. They're a "better gun" than a lasgun as long as the enemy will agree to stay way over there, but that's not going to happen a lot in 40k.

[lPeregrine]

Remember, the fundamental IG strategy is "die until they run out of bullets", so the most desirable attributes for a lasgun are low cost and no ammunition needs. On the other hand, the Tau do not engage in wars of attrition, so they have a reason to equip even their basic infantry with a very good weapon. At least their Fire Warriors, note that the guns they give to the Kroot are much less impressive.



Oh, and pulse rifles are not even close to "anti-tank" weapons. They require a bit less luck than STR 3 or STR 4 infantry guns, but it's still just a case of throwing a wall of fire at the target and hoping for a single good roll. And it's only even possible against the weakest vehicles (or the vulnerable rear armor on a tank), even an IG Chimera can ignore pulse rifle shots. So even if you take this as meaning something fluff-wise, the most you can say is that pulse rifles have the potential to damage weak points on some vehicles, they aren't shooting right through frontal armor.




edit: Sorry, I mis-read that statement.

[Junghalli]

As big and diverse as the Imperium is, maybe there's an element of lowest common denominator in their standard weapons? They choose something that's easy to repair, service, and make replacement parts for, with sacrifices in performance, figuring that soldiers are cheap?

Personally I don't really see what's so terrible about the idea that a younger race could make better guns than people with as dysfunctional a culture as the IoM, but whatever.

[NecronLord]

Oh come on. You're bitching

Wrong. I am stating that there is no background source that directly compares pulse rifles to eldar weapons. It goes no further than that.

Ork shit does run on pixie dust, though. I mean, shootaz explode if a non-ork uses them.

No they don't, they become less reliable.

[Ryan Thunder]

The Imperium should be more diverse than the Tau, in my opinion.

I meant doctrinally. The big thing used to be the notion that the Tau are more flexible than the stodgy, calcified Imperium of Man. That notion isn't represented on the table top at all.

True, but problematic because in real life antitank rifles come with tradeoffs: they're heavy, they slow you down, you can't fire them accurately without a bipod mount or something, and they damn sure don't fire on full auto.

The Tau pulse rifle has all the advantages of a lasgun and none of the disadvantages.

The tradeoff is that they field far smaller forces than the Imperium does per unit of effort, if you follow. We don't really know how much a pulse rifle costs to manufacture compared to a lasgun, either. Probably quite a bit.

Do we even know the rate of fire for pulse rifles/carbines? In-game they're considered identical to lasguns in that respect but that aspect of the game is very, very abstract to accommodate a 6-turn game.

Oh come on. You're bitching

Wrong. I am stating that there is no background source that directly compares pulse rifles to eldar weapons. It goes no further than that.

Well, I apologize for misrepresenting your position, then.

Ork shit does run on pixie dust, though. I mean, shootaz explode if a non-ork uses them.

No they don't, they become less reliable.

Semantics. That doesn't change that their shit only works as well as it does because they have friggin magical powers.

[NecronLord]

Consciously designed from the beginning, or "designed" through a combination of stealing from existing organisms and just throwing brute force natural selection at the problem? I was under the impression that the Tyranids relied on the very wasteful approach of having such massive numbers that you can't kill all of them before the hive mind's trial and error produces something that works?

They are consciously designed from the beginning.

And the genes of a tyranid life-form are not brute forced at all, they're not even necesserily all the same fundamental polymer-type, that's not like breeding it, that's like what we do with inserting genes, except stupendously more advanced (incorporating entirely alien DNA). The Hive Mind (or perhaps its Norn Queens) must do this, this isn't something that could happen by chance, this makes the brightest minds in modern molecular biology look like drooling imbeciles trying to squish plants together to combine their properties.

The hive mind subjects its creations to natural selection, yes, but that is what is called, in scientific parlance, an experiment. Evolutionary development paradigms are present in various RL fields of science, the Hive Mind using them does not invalidate its obvious achievements.

True, but by "technologically backwards" I'm referring to the attitudes towards technology, not to any specific item. By that standard, I think Orks as a whole are backwards.

In that they do not experiment (they do, mind, but not in an organised manner, organised orks being almost an oxymoron, and the closest one gets to peer review is Meks trying to outdo each-other) perhaps, but their attitude toward technology is highly practical, they build the things that they wish to according to their desires or to accomplish their goals. These things can be extremely advanced. I really don't think this is 'backwards' by that standard the Jokaero are also technologically backwards, despite producing technologies coveted by many mainstream races.

[Raxmei]

One possible drawback to the pulse rifle is that it's too big and heavy to allow the squad to pack heavy weapons. That's one of the defining elements of the fire warrior unit; it has unusually powerful basic weapons and nothing else to recommend it. In comparison a Guard infantry squad's effectiveness often has nothing to do with its lasguns. The squad can tote a lascannon to take down tanks or a heavy bolter that scythes through Tau as effectively as pulse rifles deal with Guardsmen. A Guard squad kitted out with a heavy bolter to kill infantry is more efficient attritionally speaking than the way Tau do things while other weapons allow the Guard to do things that an ordinary Fire Warrior squad can only do poorly or not at all. Yeah their basic individual kit is better but that isn't what wins wars.

[Chaotic Neutral]

That excuse doesn't really make sense, it's like saying a squad of soldiers with bolt-action rifles couldn't have two soldiers with a heavy weapon.

[Simon_Jester]

Remember, the fundamental IG strategy is "die until they run out of bullets", so the most desirable attributes for a lasgun are low cost and no ammunition needs.

To be fair, the Guard's other strategy is "shell them until we run out of bullets." The Guard works well with either human or materiel wave tactics; drowning the enemy in artillery fire is a common tactic. It's just that the cases of human wave-like tactics get the most publicity.

On the other hand, the Tau do not engage in wars of attrition, so they have a reason to equip even their basic infantry with a very good weapon. At least their Fire Warriors, note that the guns they give to the Kroot are much less impressive.

Pulse rifles are more impressive than Space Marine bolters. The Space Marines should be the ultimate example of "do not engage in wars of attrition," I'd think. Also, they routinely use weapons that no normal human or Tau could carry; the lightest Guard weapon that can match or exceed pulse rifle performance is a heavy bolter that's treated as a squad support weapon even for the Marines.

I suspect this indicates that the Tau are somewhat more capable in the 'infantry firearm' department than the Imperium, I think. At least when we're comparing the Tau average to the Imperium average, which is admittedly depressed by lowest-common-denominator effects. The Imperium's best (hotshot las/hellguns come to mind) is somewhat more competitive, to be fair, and in the heavy weapons department the Imperium generally has parity or superiority.

Oh, and pulse rifles are not even close to "anti-tank" weapons. They require a bit less luck than STR 3 or STR 4 infantry guns, but it's still just a case of throwing a wall of fire at the target and hoping for a single good roll. And it's only even possible against the weakest vehicles (or the vulnerable rear armor on a tank), even an IG Chimera can ignore pulse rifle shots. So even if you take this as meaning something fluff-wise, the most you can say is that pulse rifles have the potential to damage weak points on some vehicles, they aren't shooting right through frontal armor.

Which is... about what antitank rifles were capable of during most of WWII, except against certain opponents fool enough to field only light armor.

As big and diverse as the Imperium is, maybe there's an element of lowest common denominator in their standard weapons? They choose something that's easy to repair, service, and make replacement parts for, with sacrifices in performance, figuring that soldiers are cheap?

Personally I don't really see what's so terrible about the idea that a younger race could make better guns than people with as dysfunctional a culture as the IoM, but whatever.

I don't either. I just think there's no point in denying that that's what the tabletop implies, in the same sense that it implies that lascannon are more effective antitank weapons than autocannon.

The Imperium should be more diverse than the Tau, in my opinion.

I meant doctrinally. The big thing used to be the notion that the Tau are more flexible than the stodgy, calcified Imperium of Man. That notion isn't represented on the table top at all.

Heh. Well, go figure. Honestly, even from reading 4th Edition Codex: Tau, I got the impression that their tactics were actually fairly inflexible. It's just that their inflexibility takes the form of "nuh-uh no way will we do static defense" instead of "not one step backwards!" Since they're willing to cede industrial centers and the like to avoid static defense, I'd say they're being about as stupid as the Imperium there.

In short, their inflexibility is a mobility fetish, along with doctrines that emphasize complicated preplanned offensives that often rely heavily on the enemy's reaction to their own actions. They just look flexible because their predictable tactics take a less Grimly Determined form.

The tradeoff is that they field far smaller forces than the Imperium does per unit of effort, if you follow. We don't really know how much a pulse rifle costs to manufacture compared to a lasgun, either. Probably quite a bit.

Do we even know the rate of fire for pulse rifles/carbines? In-game they're considered identical to lasguns in that respect but that aspect of the game is very, very abstract to accommodate a 6-turn game.

That is a fair point.

[Srelex]

Heh. Well, go figure. Honestly, even from reading 4th Edition Codex: Tau, I got the impression that their tactics were actually fairly inflexible. It's just that their inflexibility takes the form of "nuh-uh no way will we do static defense" instead of "not one step backwards!" Since they're willing to cede industrial centers and the like to avoid static defense, I'd say they're being about as stupid as the Imperium there.

In short, their inflexibility is a mobility fetish, along with doctrines that emphasize complicated preplanned offensives that often rely heavily on the enemy's reaction to their own actions. They just look flexible because their predictable tactics take a less Grimly Determined form.

For what it's worth, Tau static defenses (like turrets and what amount to pillboxes) are shown in the Planetstrike rulebook...although I'm not sure on canonity there.

[Ryan Thunder]

On the other hand, the Tau do not engage in wars of attrition, so they have a reason to equip even their basic infantry with a very good weapon. At least their Fire Warriors, note that the guns they give to the Kroot are much less impressive.

Pulse rifles are more impressive than Space Marine bolters. The Space Marines should be the ultimate example of "do not engage in wars of attrition," I'd think. Also, they routinely use weapons that no normal human or Tau could carry; the lightest Guard weapon that can match or exceed pulse rifle performance is a heavy bolter that's treated as a squad support weapon even for the Marines.

That may be true, but their tactics tend to consist of "arrive, announce presence and/or stomp toward objective with power weapon in hand. If incoming fire isn't totally ineffective, it won't kill me until I've heroically achieved my objective in spite of my piss-poor tactics."

I suspect this indicats that the Tau are somewhat more capable in the 'infantry firearm' department than the Imperium, I think. At least when we're comparing the Tau average to the Imperium average, which is admittedly depressed by lowest-common-denominator effects. The Imperium's best (hotshot las/hellguns come to mind) is somewhat more competitive, to be fair, and in the heavy weapons department the Imperium generally has parity or superiority.

Certainly. The Tau generally use the burst cannon in roles that the Imperium would use heavy bolters for, and heavy bolters are far and away superior to burst cannons.

Oh, and pulse rifles are not even close to "anti-tank" weapons. They require a bit less luck than STR 3 or STR 4 infantry guns, but it's still just a case of throwing a wall of fire at the target and hoping for a single good roll. And it's only even possible against the weakest vehicles (or the vulnerable rear armor on a tank), even an IG Chimera can ignore pulse rifle shots. So even if you take this as meaning something fluff-wise, the most you can say is that pulse rifles have the potential to damage weak points on some vehicles, they aren't shooting right through frontal armor.

Ah, right, forgot about the new vehicle damage rules. They used to be scarier when applied en masse.

Heh. Well, go figure. Honestly, even from reading 4th Edition Codex: Tau, I got the impression that their tactics were actually fairly inflexible. It's just that their inflexibility takes the form of "nuh-uh no way will we do static defense" instead of "not one step backwards!" Since they're willing to cede industrial centers and the like to avoid static defense, I'd say they're being about as stupid as the Imperium there.

Sorry, I meant to imply that flexibility was assumed whether it was deserved or not. In practice you can see that yeah, for all that talk, the Tau really aren't that flexible.

The tradeoff is that they field far smaller forces than the Imperium does per unit of effort, if you follow. We don't really know how much a pulse rifle costs to manufacture compared to a lasgun, either. Probably quite a bit.

Do we even know the rate of fire for pulse rifles/carbines? In-game they're considered identical to lasguns in that respect but that aspect of the game is very, very abstract to accommodate a 6-turn game.

That is a fair point.

Thanks. I'm not sure why people don't consider that the Tau might just be giving their troops really expensive stuff compared to the Imperial Guard. It's not like it doesn't happen elsewhere.

What's wrong with the notion of a Tau Fire Warrior as a moderately well-trained alien with expensive high-quality gear?

[NecronLord]

Pulse rifles are more impressive than Space Marine bolters.

For what it's worth, if we're going into stats, in the Deathwatch RPG, they're of considerably inferior strength (space marine bolters are 2d10+5 and get to re-roll the 2d10 if they like, pulse rifles are 2d10+2), and there's a longer ranged version of a bolter to boot, though the Tau one is actually more accurate at long range. The pulse rifle is however, longer range than most bolters.

Of course, the space marines also have fission and antimatter bullets if they're really packing...

The Imperium's best (hotshot las/hellguns come to mind) is somewhat more competitive,

The hotshot las, in particular, is supposed to have gyro-stabilisation to make it accurate over long range, as the pulse rifle does.

Do we even know the rate of fire for pulse rifles/carbines?

The same source gives them a rate of fire that's quite favourable, a touch higher than most IoM smallarms, though the Imperium has hellgun patterns that match it. You also only get 36 shots before reloading.

[NecronLord]

That may be true, but their tactics tend to consist of "arrive, announce presence and/or stomp toward objective with power weapon in hand. If incoming fire isn't totally ineffective, it won't kill me until I've heroically achieved my objective in spite of my piss-poor tactics."

That's really not how they work. The iconic image of a space marine is advancing firing from the hip, not standing there to get shot.

[Ryan Thunder]

That's really not how they work. The iconic image of a space marine is advancing firing from the hip, not standing there to get shot.

Jesus Christ, man, are you illiterate? Did I say they just stood there waiting to get shot? No. I said they go wading into fire as though they think their power armour makes them indestructible. It's like their basic assumption when planning things is that they've activated God Mode. Instead of being competent and using their durability to enhance their survivability, they waste it as a crutch to let them do sloppy shit that would just get them killed if they were anything else.

[Lord Relvenous]

That's really not how they work. The iconic image of a space marine is advancing firing from the hip, not standing there to get shot.

Jesus Christ, man, are you illiterate? Did I say they just stood there waiting to get shot? No. I said they go wading into fire as though they think their power armour makes them indestructible. It's like their basic assumption when planning things is that they've activated God Mode. Instead of being competent and using their durability to enhance their survivability, they waste it as a crutch to let them do sloppy shit that would just get them killed if they were anything else.

Let's get some specific passages shall we? Space Marines are shock troops, so of course they are going to be in the thick of things taking damage. However, it's on you to demonstrate repeated instances of them using flawed tactics to accomplish their aims (i.e. rip out the heart of the enemy resistance).

[Vendetta]

Pulse rifles are more impressive than Space Marine bolters. The Space Marines should be the ultimate example of "do not engage in wars of attrition," I'd think. Also, they routinely use weapons that no normal human or Tau could carry; the lightest Guard weapon that can match or exceed pulse rifle performance is a heavy bolter that's treated as a squad support weapon even for the Marines.

As long as the enemy agrees not to jump on you and sodomise you with a chainsword.

As soon as the enemy gets close, the pulse rifle is considerably less impressive than a bolter, and this is reflected in the Tau's poor assault capability (remember that assault is not purely hand to hand combat, it reflects all short range shooting, melee, and the rest of close range engagement, and that assault values in the rules are a combination of skill and equipment). The Tau are poorly equipped for assault because their primary infantry weapon is a long range high power rifle.

[Simon_Jester]

Pulse rifles are more impressive than Space Marine bolters. The Space Marines should be the ultimate example of "do not engage in wars of attrition," I'd think...

That may be true, but their tactics tend to consist of "arrive, announce presence and/or stomp toward objective with power weapon in hand. If incoming fire isn't totally ineffective, it won't kill me until I've heroically achieved my objective in spite of my piss-poor tactics."

Based on every bit of the fluff I've seen this is transparent nonsense, unless we restrict ourselves to "Khornate berserkers and Blood Angels" as the defining set of all Marines. So I'd say it doesn't really affect my argument. Nor my point that a Tau Fire Warrior routinely carries an infantry rifle that, on tabletop, outguns a Space Marine bolter normally described as "too heavy for a normal human to lift."

Certainly. The Tau generally use the burst cannon in roles that the Imperium would use heavy bolters for, and heavy bolters are far and away superior to burst cannons.

Then you get up into the antitank-weight stuff, plasma and fusion weapons and such; but yes, if not superiority the Imperium generally has parity in heavy weapons.

Ah, right, forgot about the new vehicle damage rules. They used to be scarier when applied en masse.

Even in Fourth Edition, a thousand S5 hits to the frontal armor of an AV12 tank wouldn't even make a dent as far as I can see...

Sorry, I meant to imply that flexibility was assumed whether it was deserved or not. In practice you can see that yeah, for all that talk, the Tau really aren't that flexible.

Exactly. Their tactics aren't flexible, they're just mobile, with the two main Tau schools of thought being "dance around and lure them into a good spot for a counterattack" and "dance around and punch them in some very sensitive spot and hope they fall over."

It's no wonder their equipment list is a bit stereotyped and their tactical options a bit limited, with that kind of thinking.

Thanks. I'm not sure why people don't consider that the Tau might just be giving their troops really expensive stuff compared to the Imperial Guard. It's not like it doesn't happen elsewhere.

What's wrong with the notion of a Tau Fire Warrior as a moderately well-trained alien with expensive high-quality gear?

Doesn't bother me, but I think being able to mass-produce pulse rifles on even the limited scale needed to equip their armies suggests that the Tau have at the least an edge in technology (or in functional technology, in the ability to make large quantities of relatively high-end goods) over the Imperium's average.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Why do Tau need to compare with special forces so rare that there isn't even one soldier per planet?

Space Marines should be compared to battle suits.

[PainRack]

Based on every bit of the fluff I've seen this is transparent nonsense, unless we restrict ourselves to "Khornate berserkers and Blood Angels" as the defining set of all Marines. So I'd say it doesn't really affect my argument. Nor my point that a Tau Fire Warrior routinely carries an infantry rifle that, on tabletop, outguns a Space Marine bolter normally described as "too heavy for a normal human to lift."

To be fair, if you're using the novels solely, one CAN argue that this is how the majority of them are protrayed. Its only when one refers to the codexes and other game fluff where the Space Marines are protrayed as using tactics other than charging into the fray and blasting their way through, trusting in their holy bolter and armour.
Graham McNeil Ultramarines series is notable for faving one of the few scenes where they use an ambush instead of a standup fight.. against the Tau:D
The Lamentors in fighting against the Nids simply drop assault into the middle of the battle, shooting and suppressing the Tyranids to buy time for the evacuating ships before being overwhelmed. Ragnar in his capacity as Wolf Lord or a member of the Wolf Guard uses standup fights and assaults more than raids/stealth. The Gray Knights in Killing Ground also launched a straightfoward frontal attack against the Chaos medicae complex.

Also, isn't it the Heavy Bolter that earns that description?

Doesn't bother me, but I think being able to mass-produce pulse rifles on even the limited scale needed to equip their armies suggests that the Tau have at the least an edge in technology (or in functional technology, in the ability to make large quantities of relatively high-end goods) over the Imperium's average.

Why so? I don't have the latest Codex but they barely occupy a few sectors of equivalent Imperial territory.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but they equip the armies to defend those sectors using only those sectors' resources. To survive in the 40k galaxy at all they must have a force density broadly comparable to that of the Imperium: they can't make do with, say, 5% of the ground forces per planet that the Imperium uses or they'd get flattened.

On the one hand they don't have to arm a galaxy full of soldiers like the Imperium does; on the other, they don't have a galaxy full of factories to make the weapons with. I'd say it cancels out, leaving us with the conclusion that the Tau have to have some kind of an edge to mass-produce pulse rifles when the Imperium doesn't even come close to mass-producing, say, hellguns.