Trek Fleet counts

[Serafina]

As for evidence that the phase cloak can't just automatically phase trough everything: [..]Furthermore, the "rate" could be related to three things:

Or, 4: the difficulty of passing through solid objects; if the magic phase wasn't good enough, they'd still impart a force to the object as they passed through it, and would thus also feel a counter force. (This is exactly what happened to Geordi and Ro near the end of "The Next Phase")

If that counter-force is big enough, it'd still feel like the ship was pushing its way into a wall, which would damage it.

Fully phased - solid objects don't feel like they exist so you pass right through them
Partially phased - solid objects feel like a thick liquid; you can push through them, but you feel some of the force
Not phased - solid objects feel like solid objects


There's no evidence that density has anything to do with it. It can be entirely explained by feeling a percentage of the force.

So, if we take explanation number four - then HOW does the material they pass trough have nothing to do with it?
Oh, right - it's a handwave. You are not going to explain anything. You are just assuming that it's Treknomagic.
Note that my explanation is also compatible with "feeling a counter force".

That's my whole problem with that - both of our Trekkies are assuming that there are no limits to the phase cloak - no shields, no material density, no radiation, no tractor beams, no nothing.

Those straw-arguments sure are easier to defeat, aren't thet?

But you ARE arguing that there are no limits.
Right above (well, technically, it was below), you are arguing that the cloak can pass trough any matter if it works properly (if it's "fully phased"). You have also outright IGNORED any argument regarding shields, radiation or tractor beams.
It's reasonable to assume that there are no limits regarding radiation and gravity, since you are ignoring both arguments.
Given that assumption - YES, you ARE arguing a no-limits fallacy.

[Darth Fanboy]

Film dialogue describes the Rebellion as utterly insignificant. Which bears out, since the EpVI novelisation shows that the Endor fleet was crewed by every single rebel in the million-world empire. Now, there are certain EU sources that go against this, but using the strict canon hierarchy those are overridden. So, in G-canon the Rebellion is tinier, relative to the scale of the setting, than the Branch Davidians.

So because the Alliance military was small means that the number of beings in the galactic population discontent with the Empire was small? And I suppose those parties being held at the end of RoTJ were just isolated little incidents in no way reflective of the population as a whole?

The same novelisation also shows that Palpatine was beloved by the galaxy, and that he would be mourned by all the numerous Empire loyalists when he died; he was a villain with good publicity. Which is quite to the contrary of your interpretation.

I repeat, I suppose those parties being held at the end of RoTJ were just isolated little incidents in no way reflective of the population as a whole?

There is no fucking way that the Emperor is still beloved post-RoTJ, especially amongst nonhuman populations who were discriminated against. Not to mention the human socities who opposed Palpatine politically. Especially once truth about the Death Star was released.

In one of the X-Wing Novels (I think Wedge's Gamble) it was mentioned that only the staunchest loyalists believed the lies behind the need for the destruction of Alderaan (Bail Organa's secret Bioweapon hahahaha). Not to mention the fact in the same book the Empire has felt the need to refer to the Death Star as the peaceful "Planetary Ore Extractor."

If the Empire was so greatly beloved why was there such a need to lie about all of the events surrounding the Battle of Endor?

[Dooey Jo]

I suppose those parties being held at the end of RoTJ were just isolated little incidents in no way reflective of the population as a whole?

Obviously they were nothing but a small number of ideologues, ivory tower academics, and editorial writers. Doesn't tell us anything about the opinions of Hard-working Patriots™.

[Picard]

Actually Serafina brought up shields repeatedly, Picard just chose to ignore it (as it did pretty much everything else, to nobody's surprise).

Normally, given that from ANH we know that ships can pass throught shields of Death Star without problem.

First of all - that is a BORG sphere. NOT a Federation ship.

First of all, it is not sphere, it is scout. Second, both UFP and Borg use tritanium in ship construction.

And given that that ship crashed on a planet, it would have caused absolutely catastrophic damage at that weight.

It did cause some damage. But you forget (again) that we are talking about ship built by using tritanium, not steel.

-How does the density of the hulls and walls they penetrated compare to the density of SW-hulls?

Tritanium vs steel? Tritanium is way denser.

That is derived from the films themselves

900 kilometers is derived from hologram on Rebel meeting. I derived figure from model.

we know from the EU that it is just one trench within a single 'super trench' (Inside the Worlds - OT).

So, we have invisible super-trench... which was never shown on physical model... and never shown on diagram.

I've had quite enough of your bullshit. You will obey the rules of this forum in so far as canon is concerned. If you persist, you will be banned.

I thought that canon rule is that G canon overrides everything else. So explain me what is wrong with analyzing G canon?

[fallendragon]

Actually Serafina brought up shields repeatedly, Picard just chose to ignore it (as it did pretty much everything else, to nobody's surprise).

Normally, given that from ANH we know that ships can pass throught shields of Death Star without problem.

First of all - that is a BORG sphere. NOT a Federation ship.

First of all, it is not sphere, it is scout. Second, both UFP and Borg use tritanium in ship construction.

And given that that ship crashed on a planet, it would have caused absolutely catastrophic damage at that weight.

It did cause some damage. But you forget (again) that we are talking about ship built by using tritanium, not steel.

-How does the density of the hulls and walls they penetrated compare to the density of SW-hulls?

Tritanium vs steel? Tritanium is way denser.

That is derived from the films themselves

900 kilometers is derived from hologram on Rebel meeting. I derived figure from model.

we know from the EU that it is just one trench within a single 'super trench' (Inside the Worlds - OT).

So, we have invisible super-trench... which was never shown on physical model... and never shown on diagram.

I've had quite enough of your bullshit. You will obey the rules of this forum in so far as canon is concerned. If you persist, you will be banned.

I thought that canon rule is that G canon overrides everything else. So explain me what is wrong with analyzing G canon?

Wow, dude your a dumbass
1) Then why the fuck did the need to blow up the tower on endor for?
2) Yes in bulkheads and in cube "infrastructure" (memory aplha)
3) Interior only so far AND there should have been MASSIVE damage to the surrounding planet
4) Proof that starwars uses steel? Proof that Startrek uses Tritanium hulls? (Oh and proof of the density of Tritanium in the first place?)
5) I love how you ignore the REST of Vympels statement

[fallendragon]

Even the scifi ones I remember are more open space then astroid, but still that is the only possible data that can possibly show relationship to density and it could still just be odd timing. it is the shields that make this much more interesting IMO, how the hell would that reaction work? (if it would react at all even)

[Picard]

Wow, dude your a dumbass

And you don't know or don't want to know what you're talking about.

1) Then why the fuck did the need to blow up the tower on endor for?

That shield was projected from surface, and was not shield of DSII itself.

2) Yes in bulkheads and in cube "infrastructure" (memory aplha)

Intrepid class used tritanium in bulkheads, while hull was duranium - yet, it was describet to be built light. Which means that "normal" ships most probably use tritanium in hull (which is logical, given how superior tritanium is in terms of damage resistance. Plus we have lot of evidence that GCS hull is stronger than Voyager's - if you watch Odyssey ramming scene, you will notice that "bug" that rammed Odyssey suffered warp core breach). Odyssey itself was destroyed by warp core breach - had "bug" hit her in saucer, she would probably have survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poB74Lcwv80

4) Proof that starwars uses steel? Proof that Startrek uses Tritanium hulls? (Oh and proof of the density of Tritanium in the first place?)

a) Every collision scene from movies plus look of their ships.
b) Logic. Bulkheads of Intrepid and Galaxy class hulls were composed from tritanium. Hull of Intrepid class was composed from duranium, and Intrepid class is "built to be light". Galaxy class also showed better resistence from weapons than what would follow from hull thickness itself.
c) It is way denser than duranium. Plus Borg scout ship massed 2 500 000 metric tons, while much larger Intrepid class massed 700 000 metric tons. Even if only 20% of Borg vessel was above surface, it would be only 15-20 meters high in total.

[fallendragon]

Wow, dude your a dumbass

And you don't know or don't want to know what you're talking about.

1) Then why the fuck did the need to blow up the tower on endor for?

That shield was projected from surface, and was not shield of DSII itself.

2) Yes in bulkheads and in cube "infrastructure" (memory aplha)

Intrepid class used tritanium in bulkheads, while hull was duranium - yet, it was describet to be built light. Which means that "normal" ships most probably use tritanium in hull (which is logical, given how superior tritanium is in terms of damage resistance. Plus we have lot of evidence that GCS hull is stronger than Voyager's - if you watch Odyssey ramming scene, you will notice that "bug" that rammed Odyssey suffered warp core breach). Odyssey itself was destroyed by warp core breach - had "bug" hit her in saucer, she would probably have survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poB74Lcwv80

4) Proof that starwars uses steel? Proof that Startrek uses Tritanium hulls? (Oh and proof of the density of Tritanium in the first place?)

a) Every collision scene from movies plus look of their ships.
b) Logic. Bulkheads of Intrepid and Galaxy class hulls were composed from tritanium. Hull of Intrepid class was composed from duranium, and Intrepid class is "built to be light". Galaxy class also showed better resistence from weapons than what would follow from hull thickness itself.
c) It is way denser than duranium. Plus Borg scout ship massed 2 500 000 metric tons, while much larger Intrepid class massed 700 000 metric tons. Even if only 20% of Borg vessel was above surface, it would be only 15-20 meters high in total.

Wow, you're even dumber then I thought
Your responce to 1 was too stupid to rate ANOTHER repation as to why it is wrong, it was however rather amusing
2 Ummm "The Arsenal of Freedom"
2b) How big was the crater of the scout ship?
2c) So as the Odyssey was vulerable to raming attacks, that makes its hull stronger?

4a) That is just funny
4b) How tough was early TNG enterprise then?
4c) Concidering we don't even know if the scout ship was made of Tritanium in the first place using that as a data point is interesting, and when did they state the mass of the Intrepid class?

[Kythnos]

That shield was projected from surface, and was not shield of DSII itself.

Because if the shield was coming from the DS2 then the rebels would have known that it was at least partially operational and not fell in to the trap prepared for them?

Intrepid class used tritanium in bulkheads, while hull was duranium - yet, it was describet to be built light. Which means that "normal" ships most probably use tritanium in hull (which is logical, given how superior tritanium is in terms of damage resistance.

That is not fact it is a "theory" at best and one contradicted by ST canon.
"A in canon "theory" would be they justed used less "tritanium" in the bulkheads and less duranium in the "armor" of the ship.
I still want to know how you can compare the "superiority" of tritanium to duranium when the show does not give hard facts about either?

a) Every collision scene from movies plus look of their ships.

This has to be the worst line of reasoning ever. By that logic the ST ships where made of plastic because that is what they look like to me, and I am fairly sure that the models used to "shoot" the show where. Oh yeah so are SW ship because that sure does not look like steel to me.

b) Logic. Bulkheads of Intrepid and Galaxy class hulls were composed from tritanium. Hull of Intrepid class was composed from duranium, and Intrepid class is "built to be light".

False Logic as stated in the show directly.

2 Ummm "The Arsenal of Freedom"

After reading his BS that line is just so funny. (nice catch, I noticed it myself)

Galaxy class also showed better resistence from weapons than what would follow from hull thickness itself.

No you have to factor in the "structural integrity field", the Galaxy class might have had a better one or more power to dump into it than the Intrepid class.

c) It is way denser than duranium.

Where to you get the density for Tritanium? Or Duranium for that matter?
The only thing I could find was that it was harder than diamond, and Hardness does not equal density. If it did I am fairly certain lead would be harder than diamond also.
No the only line of reasoning you have put out is that "it must be because you want it so."

Plus Borg scout ship massed 2 500 000 metric tons, while much larger Intrepid class massed 700 000 metric tons. Even if only 20% of Borg vessel was above surface, it would be only 15-20 meters high in total.

How much of that mass was Power systems, fuel and Drive systems? That question is even giving you too much because the Borg cubes where said to use it only for the "keel" of their ships.

[Norade]

Here's an idea, just make anti-phase cloak armor out of the same shit they make floors out of in Trek and suddenly nothing can pass through them. There's no evidence showing that people can pass through these super dense floors, so unless Destructionator XIII or Picretard have anything to say on the matter we'll just have to say the density of a ship's floors will always be enough to stop people using phased cloaking technology.

[fallendragon]

I'll once again point out that nobody has shown a correlation between phase effectiveness and density.

You might ask - why don't they fall through the floor? They were actors, not ghosts. Suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story.

If you must take a canon literalist view, density makes no sense - are carpets less dense than hulls now? There is one difference though: the ship's artificial gravity. The artificial gravity plates might be right at the surface of the floor and it may have the effect. It'd explain why they didn't fall through the floors, why they could ride turbolifts, and why they could walk through walls and be shoved out the hull. The floors and turbolifts have gravity plates. The walls don't.

wow a logical theory that fits all known facts... and it only took us how long?

[hunter5]

I'll once again point out that nobody has shown a correlation between phase effectiveness and density.

You might ask - why don't they fall through the floor? They were actors, not ghosts. Suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story.

If you must take a canon literalist view, density makes no sense - are carpets less dense than hulls now? There is one difference though: the ship's artificial gravity. The artificial gravity plates might be right at the surface of the floor and it may have the effect. It'd explain why they didn't fall through the floors, why they could ride turbolifts, and why they could walk through walls and be shoved out the hull. The floors and turbolifts have gravity plates. The walls don't.

So what you are saying is SW could just use tractor beams to hold a phased ship in place and even potentially tear it apart with multiple tractor beams.

[Kythnos]

So what you are saying is SW could just use tractor beams to hold a phased ship in place and even potentially tear it apart with multiple tractor beams.

I would said you have a decent chance of holding it, but we don't know how effective it will be Gravity seemed to have less of a hold on items out of phase.

Tear it apart I would doubt, the phase-cloak does not seem to effect the "strength" of the materials it is "phasing". So unless the tractor beams could do that to a normal ship I would say no.

[Batman]

Picard claims density has nothing to do with it. Burden of proof is on it.
[...]No it's not, what with there not being any evidence to contradict it. ALL you've shown is there's an an alternative theory. Evidence would be the canon supporting that theory over the one presented by Serafina.

You're never going to get the fucking point are you? There is NO EVIDENCE for even a correlation, much less causality.

There's no evidence to the contrary either. Feel free to show that the phase cloak can do it.

As a matter of fact yes it is. And again there being a difference noticeable to the naked eye is your assumption.

Oh sure, so when there's NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR A CORRELATION there's obviously a correlation because of observation bias.
The only thing this horseshit is based upon is there needing to be a rate to pass through something. One datapoint can't show a correlation by definition!

Says the man blithely assuming the phase cloak can phase through everything.

[Batman]

There's no evidence to the contrary either. Feel free to show that the phase cloak can do it.

I already did: they walked through walls and pushed one guy through the outer hull of the ship. They can do it and they did do it, many times.

That shows that-they they can go through walls on and the outer hull of the E-D, nothing more.[/quote]
And AGAIN, there being no evidence for no correlation is the default position.[/quote]
Actually the default position is we have no fucking clue wether there is a corellation or not. However since you and Picard appear to have made it your mission to show there is no corellation, by all means continue.

Says the man blithely assuming the phase cloak can phase through everything.

No, I'm saying density has nothing to do with it, because there's no evidence for that.

There's no evidence against either, and density is one of the most rational explanations.

[Norade]

So Star Wars simply extends the anti-gravity field around them then. We know that a simple 1 G or less gravity will stop you from phasing through so simple extend the internal compensator field out further and use it as an anti-phase cloak shield.

[Stark]

It might not prevent phasing, but there's certainly some interaction. Is anyone shown jumping?

[fallendragon]

There's no evidence to the contrary either. Feel free to show that the phase cloak can do it.

I already did: they walked through walls and pushed one guy through the outer hull of the ship. They can do it and they did do it, many times.

That shows that-they they can go through walls on and the outer hull of the E-D, nothing more.

And AGAIN, there being no evidence for no correlation is the default position.

Actually the default position is we have no fucking clue wether there is a corellation or not. However since you and Picard appear to have made it your mission to show there is no corellation, by all means continue.

Says the man blithely assuming the phase cloak can phase through everything.

No, I'm saying density has nothing to do with it, because there's no evidence for that.

There's no evidence against either, and density is one of the most rational explanations.

So what, are you the wars version of Picard??? As aparantly, to you, a human and the hull of a ship have the same density. And rational explanation for what? and I am with Destructionator XIII, unless there is a clear logical reason that the Death's Star denisity stops the cloak the default assumption has to be that it can get through if it is working correctly (how often an alpha quadrent version will actaully be working properly is, in my mind, much more debatable).

[Norade]

We've already shown that a simple floor stops people from phasing and from that we know that either the floor, or 1G worth of gravity is enough to stop matter from phasing through. We know that Star Wars inertial dampeners can suppress thousands of G's worth of gravity and can extend past the shields of a vessel a considerable distance, sources for this can be found anywhere after the first book in the NJO series. We also know that photons, chemical reactions, gravity, and the power of love can effect people that have been phased and that you need to right frequency to phase through something as simple as a small asteroid, to get through the outer hull of the first DS and get anywhere useful you'd need to fly through hundreds of kilometers of walls as well as artificial gravity and thus you'll come to a halt very quickly even if the DS does nothing to defend itself.

[Picard]

So they just go throught vent.

[Norade]

So they just go throught vent.

First off, try getting the spelling right and including all the words your sentence requires.

Now assuming you mean, "Then they will just go through the vent", you're absolutely fucking wrong. First of all there was no vent large enough for a ship to fit through on the DS1 and on the DS2 there was also no vent, if you mean the open side that was part of a ruse to trick the rebel fleet into thinking it was incomplete by making it look less complete than it really was then you're also wrong. You're continually ignoring the fact that the rebels reached that point in the galaxy using a drive many times faster than the drive speeds in Star Trek and that an incomplete DS2 wouldn't be sent to the enemy until it was made complete. This would include things like a fully enclosed hull and secondary and point defense batteries.

Second, and I hope you take this in the most appropriate way, kindly fuck off with the wall of ignorance style and please don't let the door hit you on the way out you shit sucking piece of mother fucking trash.

[Kythnos]

So Star Wars simply extends the anti-gravity field around them then. We know that a simple 1 G or less gravity will stop you from phasing through so simple extend the internal compensator field out further and use it as an anti-phase cloak shield.

I don't think it is that simple, the Enterprise was able to phase itself free of the asteroid while it was generating artificial gravity. I think the best theory we could put forth so far is "that gravity still has some effect on phased matter".

[Norade]

So Star Wars simply extends the anti-gravity field around them then. We know that a simple 1 G or less gravity will stop you from phasing through so simple extend the internal compensator field out further and use it as an anti-phase cloak shield.

I don't think it is that simple, the Enterprise was able to phase itself free of the asteroid while it was generating artificial gravity. I think the best theory we could put forth so far is "that gravity still has some effect on phased matter".

Then basic floors are what stops you from phasing through, it's either gravity or the deck itself that stops them from falling through. People also seem to interact with gasses, so we can just blow poison gas through the ship's hull and kill them all, or just shine a very high powered laser to blind them.

[Junghalli]

or just shine a very high powered laser to blind them.

I don't think phased matter appears transparent to somebody inside who's phased. For one thing if it did phased people would be blind because their retinas are transparent (see here for a discussion of the same problem in the context of The Invisible Man). Also, while it's been a while since I've seen the episode I'm fairly sure the Enterprise's hull didn't turn completely transparent from the viewpoint of the people inside (could be wrong though, like I said I haven't seen it in a long time).

Of course this suggests an alternate point of vulnerability, as there's apparently still some interaction between phased material and visible light.

[Norade]

or just shine a very high powered laser to blind them.

I don't think phased matter appears transparent to somebody inside who's phased. For one thing if it did phased people would be blind because their retinas are transparent (see here for a discussion of the same problem in the context of The Invisible Man). Also, while it's been a while since I've seen the episode I'm fairly sure the Enterprise's hull didn't turn completely transparent from the viewpoint of the people inside (could be wrong though, like I said I haven't seen it in a long time).

Of course this suggests an alternate point of vulnerability, as there's apparently still some interaction between phased material and visible light.

I was more talking about simply blinding people at point blank range, though at that point super powerful isn't required, something like a scaled up laser pointer will still mess with phased people just fine. Also seeing as they still interact with light you could simply shine lights around and look for the dark spot unless Treknology can somehow interact with something without disturbing it. You could also use the old colored gas trick as they still breath making this cloaking pretty damned laughable.