Galactic Empire vs Orions Arm Sephirotic Civilisations

[Darth Hoth]

However there's no evidence for the claim that FTL was ever impossible, just as if we suddenly saw something go FTL within the scope of modern detection equipment and determined that from that point on the object moved faster than light. Would scientists assume that FTL just became possible, or start looking for a branch of physics we missed?

This.

Bravo, Norade. The above paragraph hits the proverbial nail on the head like a neutronium hammer.

How would one go about giving proof, in a novel or sourcebook, that something is impossible? Well, I suppose one could have an explicitly omniscient and omnipotent narrator saying so and argue from that, but even that is hardly foolproof against nitpickery.

The best one can do for certain (and this is, on the other hand, done rather easily) is to show that someone or other thinks that something is impossible. In OA's case, as far as Vs debates are concerned, it would be their wankatrons and multivacs sharing the point of view that FTL travel is just that.

Unless one wants to appeal to "Author's Intent" and claim that X is so because some guy said so out of universe. But that goes against suspension of disbelief and is, to put it mildly, frowned upon on this board. It is assuredly no better than using an arbitrary standard for Vs, in any case.

So, in my mind it is much better overall to assume that OA simply missed the discoveries that made "hyperphysics" possible.


At the same time, one must also realise that this does not necessarily mean that the wankatrons are retarded. It imposes a limit on their claimed no-limits infallibility, of course, but critical reflection does that anyway. And in this case the limit is an undefined one at best.

It also does nothing to argue that OA could not possibly reverse engineer SW tech. That is, as I already pointed out, a reversed no-limits fallacy in and of itself. While OA has not discovered SW tech on its own, it can still do so, and will assuredly do when it is deployed against them. And the SW universe does have examples of such reverse engineering; the Yevetha copying Imperial technology comes to mind. (Granted, they basically just stole an entire infrastructure from the Empire and built upon that, but still.)

The question, in the end, comes down to whether reverse engineering can be fast and practical enough to help OA. Which I personally doubt, but just arguing for the possibility does not mark one out as a retard. (Although the quality of the argument might . . . and has done so here, in the past.)

[Norade]

Are you deliberately being obtuse, or are you just brain damaged? They didn't develop FTL because in their setting, FTL isn't possible. They didn't develop it for the same reason they didn't develop perpetual motion machines--it's physically impossible. It doesn't say anything about their capabilities. FTL is introduced in the versus debate as a debate convention only; trying to use that convention as evidence against OA is introducing new facts into the setting that doesn't exist in OA's canon.

Whether the AIs can reverse-engineer hyperdrive can only be determined by comparing similar situations in OA's canon; an alien power (or an isolated human-descended society) introduces an unknown new technology and other OA powers attempt to reverse-engineer it without assistance. Since hyperdrive is based on entirely new and unknown physics, I suspect it would be quite difficult, given the military pressure the OA powers would be under, and even if they could, they'd still need to develop the physical infrastructure to build and deploy hyperdrive-equipped warships. That said, however, you still can't use the fact they never developed it before as any kind of evidence, because it simply didn't exist in the setting beforehand.

However there's no evidence for the claim that FTL was ever impossible, just as if we suddenly saw something go FTL within the scope of modern detection equipment and determined that from that point on the object moved faster than light. Would scientists assume that FTL just became possible, or start looking for a branch of physics we missed?

There's no evidence FTL ever was possible in the OA universe, either. Seeing as Star Wars-style hyperdrive is completely ruled out by the laws of physics, the default assumption, if we don't see it or something like it, is that it doesn't exist. If you're making the argument that it actually is possible, then you have to find the evidence inside OA's canon.

Once again, you're trying to use a versus debate convention as evidence of something inside OA's setting, when it isn't. You're introducing outside information. FTL is only being introduced into OA's universe to allow there to be a debate at all; otherwise, Star Wars ships would pop out of the Milky Way end of the wormhole and putter around there at sublight until they got bored and went home. The debate convention doesn't suddenly change OA's setting.

Ship's going FTL at all preclude there being anything to stop them, these ships aren't bringing hyperspace with them anymore than bringing a Mach 1 or higher aircraft back before the sound barrier was broken won't bring anything back with them. We have plenty of evidence to show many things that OA isn't able to do. They don't have weapons, shields, armor, or power generation on par with Star Wars either, it's possible that they simply don't understand physics enough to go FTL.

[Darth Hoth]

There's no evidence FTL ever was possible in the OA universe, either. Seeing as Star Wars-style hyperdrive is completely ruled out by the laws of physics, the default assumption, if we don't see it or something like it, is that it doesn't exist. If you're making the argument that it actually is possible, then you have to find the evidence inside OA's canon.

Once again, you're trying to use a versus debate convention as evidence of something inside OA's setting, when it isn't. You're introducing outside information. FTL is only being introduced into OA's universe to allow there to be a debate at all; otherwise, Star Wars ships would pop out of the Milky Way end of the wormhole and putter around there at sublight until they got bored and went home. The debate convention doesn't suddenly change OA's setting.

The debate convention is explicitly that the laws of physics do not change between settings. So if anything is shown to be able to exist in one universe, it can in the other, as well. And it has always been there; it was not introduced by wormhole just last night. If one accepts that standard, one also accepts that powers in X universe have not discovered Y universe's technology despite being theoretically capable of doing so. I agree with Norade that far. Not all his other arguments, but that one. It has been a consistent assumption for as long as I have been around here and most likely many years before, so why does it change when OA of all settings come up?

Again, as my previous post should have made clear, this is also not the same as an argument that OA cannot develop FTL. In the Vs scenario it obviously can, if SW can. That it has not already done so is not "proof" to the contrary; by that standard Earth could not have obtained controlled fission because the Romans never had it. All it is proof of is . . . that they have not already discovered it.

[Simon_Jester]

However there's no evidence for the claim that FTL was ever impossible, just as if we suddenly saw something go FTL within the scope of modern detection equipment and determined that from that point on the object moved faster than light. Would scientists assume that FTL just became possible, or start looking for a branch of physics we missed?

This.

So, in my mind it is much better overall to assume that OA simply missed the discoveries that made "hyperphysics" possible.

At the same time, one must also realise that this does not necessarily mean that the wankatrons are retarded. It imposes a limit on their claimed no-limits infallibility, of course, but critical reflection does that anyway. And in this case the limit is an undefined one at best.

Indeed.

The deep history of the Star Wars setting suggests that hyperdrive was extremely difficult to invent. The first known versions of the drive (discounting truly ancient precursor civilizations millions of years ago) literally needed outright magic in order to work: the Rakatan Force-based drives. It took millenia for other cultures to figure out how the technology worked and duplicate it without reliance on the Force.

Even then, some of the ancient applications of hyperspace technology described in the EU (such as permanent point-to-point teleportation gates) still can't be replicated today in-setting.

On the one hand, this suggests that the Orion Arm civilization doesn't have to be stupid or primitive to simply not have hyperdrive technology, even if it is physically possible in their universe. On the other, it also suggests that reverse-engineering a working hyperdrive is very very difficult. Difficult to the point where even assuming they are vastly more intelligent than anything in Star Wars, the Orion Arm AIs won't be able to reverse-engineer the technology in time to have much impact on an all out war.

It also does nothing to argue that OA could not possibly reverse engineer SW tech. That is, as I already pointed out, a reversed no-limits fallacy in and of itself. While OA has not discovered SW tech on its own, it can still do so, and will assuredly do when it is deployed against them. And the SW universe does have examples of such reverse engineering; the Yevetha copying Imperial technology comes to mind. (Granted, they basically just stole an entire infrastructure from the Empire and built upon that, but still.)

[looks up]

Yes, that last bit is critical. The Imperials had to do much of the work of training individual Yevetha to use shipyard technology.

We know that the technologies needed to build hyperdrives can be mastered by ordinary organic beings in one lifetime; there is a limit on how much you need to know to make them work. The question is how long it would take to recreate the drives from examples of the drives themselves, and that is a very difficult proposition. The precedents in Star Wars are, so far as I know, not promising.

[RedImperator]

However there's no evidence for the claim that FTL was ever impossible, just as if we suddenly saw something go FTL within the scope of modern detection equipment and determined that from that point on the object moved faster than light. Would scientists assume that FTL just became possible, or start looking for a branch of physics we missed?

This.

Bravo, Norade. The above paragraph hits the proverbial nail on the head like a neutronium hammer.

I've gotten actual blowjobs that were less gratuitous than that sentence.

Anyway, arguing "Well, hurr durr, maybe it does exist and they just missed it" when "it" defies the laws of physics and has never been shown, speculated, or hinted to be possible anywhere in the setting is fucking stupid. It's exactly as bad an argument as "Well, hurr durr, maybe there are little green men on Mars and we just missed them" or "Well, hurr durr, maybe there is a pink unicorn in my garage and you just didn't look hard enough for it". If you or Norade or anyone else want to argue that hyperdrive might be possible in the OA universe, you can schlep on over to Orion's Arm and sort through the canon until you find the proof.

The debate convention is explicitly that the laws of physics do not change between settings. So if anything is shown to be able to exist in one universe, it can in the other, as well. And it has always been there; it was not introduced by wormhole just last night. If one accepts that standard, one also accepts that powers in X universe have not discovered Y universe's technology despite being theoretically capable of doing so. I agree with Norade that far. Not all his other arguments, but that one. It has been a consistent assumption for as long as I have been around here and most likely many years before, so why does it change when OA of all settings come up?

Look, it doesn't fucking matter how you rationalize it for the versus debate. Maybe they missed it like the Romans missed the stirrup or the printing press. Maybe the Force powers hyperdrive somehow and the wormhole leaked Force into the Milky Way. Maybe God A WIZARD did it. Doesn't matter, as long as you don't try to infer anything about OA's capabilities from it. Which, you'll notice, Norade tried to do.

This will be like the fourth time I've said this, but I'll keep repeating it until I get bored and quit: trying to use a debate convention as evidence against one side or another 1) violates your precious SoD by introducing information from outside the setting which changes the canon, 2) changes the debate from an "X vs. Y" scenario to "X vs. crippled watered-down Y that only exists in this thread", and 3) is fucking lame.

[RedImperator]

Ship's going FTL at all preclude there being anything to stop them, these ships aren't bringing hyperspace with them anymore than bringing a Mach 1 or higher aircraft back before the sound barrier was broken won't bring anything back with them. We have plenty of evidence to show many things that OA isn't able to do. They don't have weapons, shields, armor, or power generation on par with Star Wars either, it's possible that they simply don't understand physics enough to go FTL.

Holy dogshit, how'd I miss this? I still can't tell if you're trolling, being deliberately obtuse because you want to win an argument, or just fucking stupid, so I'll go ahead and explain this one more time.

OA can't do any of those things because they're not physically possible in the setting. You know your precious suspension of disbelief canon literalism? The only rational way to look at things, according to you? Guess what? That precludes using the conditions of the versus debate as evidence of OA's capabilities, because it's not canon. The versus debate is outside information, just the same as author's intent would be. The debate convention explicitly changes OA canon in one way--it allows FTL travel so there can actually be a discussion. It doesn't go back and rewrite OA canon. If you insist on claiming for the purposes of the scenario that FTL always existed, fine, then they missed it, like the Romans missed gunpowder even though they were capable of inventing it. Once you start insisting that you can actually draw conclusion's about OA's canonical capabilities based on a debate convention, however, you're violating SoD and breaking your own rules. It is also, incidentally, incredibly lame--"Hurr durr I r smrt; lookit those dumzorz computars wat ain't cyphered out no plot magic from another setting". I somehow doubt this will deter you, but there it is.

If you would like to argue that hyperspace actually is allowed by OA physics within OA's canon, and the lack of hyperdrive travel within the setting is proof of an actual, canonical limitation of their abilities, the only way to prove that is to go to Orion's Arm and start reading until you find the fucking canonical evidence.

[Uncluttered]

An interesting theory: Early Hyperdrive relied on "The Force" and took millenia to duplicate.

I don't seem to remember footage of thousands of Jedi in sweatshops, praying over crystals until they turn into hyperdrives. I suspect the duplication was through purely technological means. I interpret it to mean that someone figured out the underlying theory, by observation and experimentation. They then derived a mechanism to reproduce the effect.

Hundreds of years worth of experimentation can be parallelized. Since the Rakatan empire had only 500 worlds, we have an upper limit on the scale of the experiments needed. The combined industrial output of 500 worlds, plus any worlds that could possibly have been visited often enough to see a hyperdrive working. It's a lot, but it's not infinite.
Also according to this source:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive
The hyperdrive was duplicated only two hundred years later on just two planets.
Either way, it means that the technology can be duplicated within a reasonable timeframe by a dedicated adversary.
Something with more than human intelligence might not have the same limitations.
The superhuman intelligence doesn't even have to wait for full hyperdrive.
FTL can be exploited as soon as they develop the "hyperspace canon"
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace_cannon


But I've come to the conclusion, that hyperdrive is a non-issue.

The real issue is "TheForce": The effects of Magic are indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology. (And it is technology, as demonstrated by reverse engineering of the hyperdrive).

If we wank about hyperdrive, we should wank about how the OA computers haven't discovered midichlorians.

To sum it up. According to SD.Net standards. In a Vs scenario of epic proportions--Harry Potter is the most badass "science fiction" ever written.

wankus fanboyus!

[Bakustra]

This whole affair and the underlying theory are much like Count Orlok. It combusts when brought into the light. Consider that according to this principle, the entire population of the modern world in a versus scenario with, say the world of Norse myth is retarded because we don't know where Bifrost is or have a way of traveling between the levels of Yggdrasill. In that situation, it becomes obvious that something new has been added and we cannot fault the inhabitants of either for their relative ignorance. So the same ought to apply to any other versus. The scenario begins, and a new world from the joining of the two is created, though hopefully without any Electron Pump-esque shenanigans (cool though that might be for fanfiction).

I don't seem to remember footage of thousands of Jedi in sweatshops, praying over crystals until they turn into hyperdrives. I suspect the duplication was through purely technological means. I interpret it to mean that someone figured out the underlying theory, by observation and experimentation. They then derived a mechanism to reproduce the effect.

It's actually quite possible that the Rakata themselves gained hyperdrive from an even earlier set of precursors that created the Maw neutron star and black hole cluster and arranged the worlds of the Corellia system. They're generally called the "Celestials", and it's sometimes vaguely hypothesized that they kidnapped samples of early homo sapiens sapiens (being active about 4-500,000 years before the movie era) and settled them in the SW galaxy. So to sum things up, we have little idea how difficult discovering it actually was, because the best candidate for initial discoverer is a godlike alien precursor species (SW has every space opera chic). Everybody else may have then salvaged it from earlier ruins. But that still doesn't make it any less likely in practical terms for the OA powers to be able to develop their own hyperdrives, as it's relatively easy to learn how to maintain and build one.

[asedra]

Serafina: 'There is no reason to assume that physics must change, other than OA-wankers desire to give their side instant FTL.' If this battle is taking place in orions arm space, then your argument would render the hyperdrives inert! LOL. Thats the very definition of shooting yourself in the foot. 'Oh no, I meant it is taking place in SW space' will be your obvious reply. And please keep the wanking down to a minimum.

'The first question is already questionable - OA doesn't have hyperspace sensors, so observing hyperdrives in action is already quite difficult.' Wrong. Hyperspace jumps can be stoped by intense gravity wells, so I'm assuming that theres some level of space time manipulation involved. Seeing as the artifints whose intelligence you trash at every opprotunity can manipulate space time, I'm assuming they have the instruments to moniter these things (in fact, its almost a given. Our modern day LHC wouldn't be what it was without its bank of monitering sensors). They might be able to glean alot more from a hyperspace flash than you would first think.

'they do not have any of the necessary infrastructure, they do not have any capability to manipulate the materials and fuels needed for SW-technology, their energy production is utterly insignificant.' This really shows off your ignorance. By what stretch of the imagination would you call the total energy output of a star insignificant? Actually, several dozen stars? You can thank the dysons spheres for that. But I'm sure your wanktastic hypermatter generators can outdo that? Give me an energy rating to compare it to. Then I'll re-consider your stupid statement.

'The classical illustration for this: You give some of our early scientist (say, Newton) all the knowledge necessary to build a modern car. They have blueprints, explanations, exact material composition, every possible thing they can know about it. You also give them all the computational power we had when we built these things, or even more. Can they build that car?' I already answered that in my last post. My answer was, yes they can. Especially since the archailects have vastly more computational power than the empire, which your ridiculous comparison failed to take into account. OA isn't 17th century compared to SW: In fact, its completely the other way around, unless you consider the perfluxity of sillytech to be an extenuating circumstance

'Absolutely not. Their material science is not up to it - they don't have steel or the necessary strength, no metal flexible enough, no modern rubber for the tires and so on. They can't craft any of it with the necessary precision.' Also proved this to be false in my last post.

'They can't refine the fuel to run the car. And so on.' Like I said, if this is taking place in the OA universe, there won't even be any fucking hypermatter to extract, dummy. HM is the fictional substance, and yet you treat it as if it exists in every sci fi universe! Thats just stupid.

'So yes - OA AI-wank won't help them actually building any SW-technology.' In the OA universe, none of your shit works, and your restricted to the light speed barrier just like real life people are. Deal with it. And honestly SW is the party who is most guilty of wank, not OA.

[Serafina]

First, learn to use the quote function.
Now, let's go to your "argument".

There is no reason to assume that physics must change, other than OA-wankers desire to give their side instant FTL.'

If this battle is taking place in orions arm space, then your argument would render the hyperdrives inert! LOL. Thats the very definition of shooting yourself in the foot. 'Oh no, I meant it is taking place in SW space' will be your obvious reply. And please keep the wanking down to a minimum.

Sop you assume that just because they have AIs, they must automatically know all of physics?
That's the problem with OA-wankers - they always assume their AIs to be all-knowing and all-powerful.
We don't need to change any physics of either universe (in fact, it's commonly assumed that VS-battles take place in the same universe). YOU require this additional, extraordinary assumption in order to justify your lack of FTL. On the other hand, i merely require the obvious fact that OA doesn't have FTL.

'The first question is already questionable - OA doesn't have hyperspace sensors, so observing hyperdrives in action is already quite difficult.'

Wrong. Hyperspace jumps can be stoped by intense gravity wells, so I'm assuming that theres some level of space time manipulation involved. Seeing as the artifints whose intelligence you trash at every opprotunity can manipulate space time, I'm assuming they have the instruments to moniter these things (in fact, its almost a given. Our modern day LHC wouldn't be what it was without its bank of monitering sensors). They might be able to glean alot more from a hyperspace flash than you would first think.

So they can monitor space-time. That's great. How does that translate into any capability to observe the rest of hyperspace, rather than just the interaction between it and real space?

'they do not have any of the necessary infrastructure, they do not have any capability to manipulate the materials and fuels needed for SW-technology, their energy production is utterly insignificant.'

This really shows off your ignorance. By what stretch of the imagination would you call the total energy output of a star insignificant? Actually, several dozen stars? You can thank the dysons spheres for that. But I'm sure your wanktastic hypermatter generators can outdo that? Give me an energy rating to compare it to. Then I'll re-consider your stupid statement.

Okay, now it's my time to
Seriously - you don't even know the difference between energy output and infrastructure? Yeesh, you are a dumb one.
Besides, the Death Star puts out more energy than the sun in a week - with a single shot. And is capable of shooting at least once every 24 hours. Therefore, it has a HIGHER energy output than the sun.

'The classical illustration for this: You give some of our early scientist (say, Newton) all the knowledge necessary to build a modern car. They have blueprints, explanations, exact material composition, every possible thing they can know about it. You also give them all the computational power we had when we built these things, or even more. Can they build that car?'

I already answered that in my last post. My answer was, yes they can. Especially since the archailects have vastly more computational power than the empire, which your ridiculous comparison failed to take into account. OA isn't 17th century compared to SW: In fact, its completely the other way around, unless you consider the perfluxity of sillytech to be an extenuating circumstance

So you think that you could build a car, without any of the necessary machine tools, factory assembly lines, specialists, steel mills, power plants and so on? Okay, you really ARE an idiot.
OA doesn't have any of the infrastructure necessary to build SW-technology. SW has also more advanced technology - they have more powerful weapons, generators, drives, energy manipulation (shields) and so on and so on.
You are just AI-wanking here - being smart is good, but it doesn't allow you to ignore the laws of physics - you can't just conjure things out of thin air.

'They can't refine the fuel to run the car. And so on.' Like I said, if this is taking place in the OA universe, there won't even be any fucking hypermatter to extract, dummy. HM is the fictional substance, and yet you treat it as if it exists in every sci fi universe! Thats just stupid.

In VS-debates, we assume that the technology of both sides works. Otherwise, we are stuck with pointless "mine works. No, mine does!". If i were to play this game with you, then i could just claim that your super-AIs don't work (they are just as fictional as hypermatter, after all).

'So yes - OA AI-wank won't help them actually building any SW-technology.' In the OA universe, none of your shit works, and your restricted to the light speed barrier just like real life people are. Deal with it. And honestly SW is the party who is most guilty of wank, not OA.

OA is pure wank. Almost none of your technologies work. If you have been told that they are compatible with real-life science, you have been lied to.

[asedra]

'Sorry, you don't earn bonus points for politeness here.' I will remember that.

'OA isn't hard scifi and has just as much magi-tech as Star Wars so you can shove this line of reasoning up your ass.' Why don't you quit blowing smoke up my ass? There is no scientific reason to prevents the existance of programmible matter such as computronium, and certainly not quantum computing. I'll give you a list of SW infractions against scientific accuracy with which you can dispense your fradulent line of reasoning (and yeah, I found it off a website who does this kind of stuff): www.kheper.net/topics/scifi/grading.html.

Very Soft Science Fiction

VERY SOFT : Breaks physical laws and while the explanations, if any, may sound reasonable in the context of the story, the result has so many inconsistencies and implausibilities one is hard pressed to feel in any way comfortable about this material as "Science Fiction", enjoyable as it may be as pure entertainment. Knowledge of real science, real engineering, and so on is basically non-existent. Unlike Soft Sci Fi it does not even provide any consistency within the context of the story. e.g. in Star Trek matter transports allow perfect molecular replication, but this is never used to heal illness or attain bodily immortality. Incidentally, the author of one website (don't have the url) argued (dubiously) that much of this material is still "hard SF" because it seeks and provides a rational explanation of things. e.g. in Star Trek you know that you need some form of FTL to travel between the stars. But this is really stretching the term "hard sci fi".

•The majority of planets are like Earth (just look around our solar system - Earth type worlds are likely to be very rare)
•A barren lifeless world with breathable atmosphere (oxygen is a highly reactive gas - a lifeless world would have a reducing atmosphere)
•Alien worlds, cultures, and fashions very similar to late 20th/early 21st century America (or other periods and cultures of Earth - e.g. the Prussian Centauris of Babylon 5)
•technobabble rather than real science (dilithium crystals, hypermatter, midichlorians, ion storms, subspace anomalies, crowded asteroid belts, etc, etc)
•civilizations with some very advanced technology, (e.g. FTL ships, matter teleportation, etc) that still don't have basic genetic engineering, life-extension, or other personal augmentation
•civilizations that don't think to apply the aforesaid extremely advanced godlike technologies to improving standard of living, quality of life, etc (e.g. ST matter transmitters can be used to replicate perfect bodies or organs and hence guarantee physical immortality)
•civilizations with very advanced technology centuries in advance of us that suffer from conservative/luddite prejudices or fears of late 20th/early 21st century western world (e.g. "genetic engineering is bad")
•civilizations with very advanced technology in which however the culture, society, and psychology is identical to that of the late 20th/early 21st century western world
•Many Sillytech SF devices

Science, Technologies and Themes in Very Soft SF

This relates to the inconsistency of these fictional universes in failing to follow through technological development into other areas of science and of society. Also some concepts that are clearly totally absurd and against the laws of physics. In addition, technobabble might be used instead of real science


Why don't you check out that scale later and find where OA ranks on it? Hint: Its alot higher than SW. Believe that, choker.

[asedra]

First, learn to use the quote function.
Now, let's go to your "argument".
-Alright, I'll give it a go, just stop whining.

Sop you assume that just because they have AIs, they must automatically know all of physics?
That's the problem with OA-wankers - they always assume their AIs to be all-knowing and all-powerful.
We don't need to change any physics of either universe (in fact, it's commonly assumed that VS-battles take place in the same universe). YOU require this additional, extraordinary assumption in order to justify your lack of FTL. On the other hand, i merely require the obvious fact that OA doesn't have FTL.
-No, I don't assume they know all physics. Certainly not SW wanktastic hypermatter But, as I said, they don't need as thorough an introduction into the field in order to catch the hang of it. In the same way that, whereas you need to repeat a certain routine with a monkey dozens of times before he hits his stride, a human only needs to be shown ONCE.
-Also, please elaborate what you mean by implying that this battle will take point in a joint universe? Are you implying a merger of the two, or a wormhole link? Be specific.

So they can monitor space-time. That's great. How does that translate into any capability to observe the rest of hyperspace, rather than just the interaction between it and real space?

-Witnessing the jump and discovering the dyamics involved is a hell of start, particularly since getting into hyperspace is the hardest part. You lay in your course beforehand and GO. After that, you just sit back and chill.

Okay, now it's my time to
Seriously - you don't even know the difference between energy output and infrastructure? Yeesh, you are a dumb one.
Besides, the Death Star puts out more energy than the sun in a week - with a single shot. And is capable of shooting at least once every 24 hours. Therefore, it has a HIGHER energy output than the sun.

-What did I not say about 'DYSON SPHERES (PLURAL)?!' Does it not involve a massive, physical structure which harvests the energy of a star? Infrastructure, dude, and a hell of an energy base.
-About the death star, yeah, your a funny guy. The supernova bombs OA have convert a third of a stars mass into energy, creating a supernova which is dangerous for *MULTIPLE LIGHTYEARS*. The Deathstar has nowhere near that effect, plus the artifints have far more of the supernova bombs than the empire has of death stars (umm, just one, in fact!), which are in turn far stealthier (100% EM ABSORPTION FOR THE WIN!) and far smaller and hence far easier to use. They also can do interesting things such as turn planets into antimatter bombs. And besides, they have AI circuitry capable of surviving inside the core of a star. The Empire's ships don't jump into the middle of stars just for the heck of it, do they now? The Death Star, also, would be fairly unimpressive in OA God-terms, as they could have, in theory, several dozen GodHammers, which are basically really really powerful wormhole-based weapons. Harnessing pulsars and magnetars, which are rather significantly more powerful. OA God *scout fleets* can turn a planet into nothing more than thin smears of dust within days.

So you think that you could build a car, without any of the necessary machine tools, factory assembly lines, specialists, steel mills, power plants and so on? Okay, you really ARE an idiot.
OA doesn't have any of the infrastructure necessary to build SW-technology. SW has also more advanced technology - they have more powerful weapons, generators, drives, energy manipulation (shields) and so on and so on.
You are just AI-wanking here - being smart is good, but it doesn't allow you to ignore the laws of physics - you can't just conjure things out of thin air.

-They build much larger and much more exotic infrastructure than what SW has ever shown, give me a break dude!

In VS-debates, we assume that the technology of both sides works.

-Cool. Then whatever barrier has prevented the AI gods from building hyperdrives is lifted upon contact with the warsies. The only reason OA can't go FTL is because such things are impossible in real life, not the other way around, and contact with SW degrades that scientific accuracy down by an order of magnitude.

OA is pure wank. Almost none of your technologies work. If you have been told that they are compatible with real-life science, you have been lied to.

-Read last post.


[Quote formatting fixed... I think. ~NL]

[Darth Hoth]

'OA isn't hard scifi and has just as much magi-tech as Star Wars so you can shove this line of reasoning up your ass.' Why don't you quit blowing smoke up my ass? There is no scientific reason to prevents the existance of programmible matter such as computronium, and certainly not quantum computing. I'll give you a list of SW infractions against scientific accuracy with which you can dispense your fradulent line of reasoning (and yeah, I found it off a website who does this kind of stuff): http://www.kheper.net/topics/scifi/grading.

So, wait: Serafina argues that OA is not "hard" science fiction (with which position I wholeheartedly agree, by the way), and your response is to - Say that it is, according to some condescending, made-up scale that makes no secret of the fact that it was written by OA people in the first place? The same OA people who constantly wank over how "hard" their storyverse is?

Yes, surely that is an entirely unbiased and reliable source . . .

Of course, that made-up scale is hilarious when one looks at it. The people behind it think, among other things, that space opera like Asimov's Foundation and Baxter's Xeelee books are hard SF, that reactionless drives are not out of place in a hard SF setting, and that femto-scale nanotechwank is a "reasonable, explained extrapolation of physical laws" . . .

[Bakustra]

So, magic antimatter-manufacturing beams, a misunderstanding of what a supernova is, femtotech (hahaha), all these make Orion's Arm hard sci-fi? It seems that the definition has become fuzzier and fuzzier. You provide some woo-woo who believes in chakras and proclaims that the Uncertainty Principle might be overcome, so femtotech is plausible. By that same token, we may discover preferred reference frames that allow us to go FTL and overcome General Relativity, therefore, FTL is just as plausible.

But that website is frankly, adorable. It reeks of the urge to kick televised sci-fi out of the clubhouse, even though Firefly is far more plausible than the majority, indeed totality, of Known Space or Dune. I notice that no visual SF falls into the hard categories. It's almost cute the way he expounds in one sentence about how story quality taking precedence over adherence to science is a soft quality, then a few sentences later explains that quality is not dependent on hardness or softness. Simply adorable.

[Serafina]

I see you didn't learn how to use the quote function properly. Remember that intelligence is, essentially, the capability to learn.

-No, I don't assume they know all physics. Certainly not SW wanktastic hypermatter But, as I said, they don't need as thorough an introduction into the field in order to catch the hang of it. In the same way that, whereas you need to repeat a certain routine with a monkey dozens of times before he hits his stride, a human only needs to be shown ONCE.

And again - you are focussing on intelligence, and on intelligence alone. That's why i call you an AI-wanker.
You are ignoring all the other problems.

-Also, please elaborate what you mean by implying that this battle will take point in a joint universe? Are you implying a merger of the two, or a wormhole link? Be specific.

We use the method that inflicts the least change onto both "universes" - the word is used in a loose sense, since that "least change" approach means that they are in the same universe when possible. Note that there is no reason to assume that SW and OA can't be in the same universe, other than OA-wanker insistence that their AIs must automatically know all of physics.

-Witnessing the jump and discovering the dyamics involved is a hell of start, particularly since getting into hyperspace is the hardest part. You lay in your course beforehand and GO. After that, you just sit back and chill.

You fail. Hyperspace-travel is a complex process. First of all, it needs a "relativity-compensator" in order to work properly. Furthermore, you need complex calculations for it - the grade of complexity suggests that traveling trough hyperspace is far more complicated than travel trough real space. So it's not just "lay the course and relax".
Besides, you are also an utter moron if you think that observing some of the effects of something equals knowledge about it's dynamics. We have observed the effects of lights for centuries (or millennia, when you are counting the time where we had no scientific method), but we only gained knowledge about it's dynamics quite recently.

-What did I not say about 'DYSON SPHERES (PLURAL)?!' Does it not involve a massive, physical structure which harvests the energy of a star? Infrastructure, dude, and a hell of an energy base.

And you really ARE a moron.
A power plant is NOT a factory. You can have hundreds of nuclear power plants, they don't enable you to build a single modern car without a car factory (and steel mills and so on).
Oh, and FYI - dude is the wrong term.

-About the death star, yeah, your a funny guy. The supernova bombs OA have convert a third of a stars mass into energy, creating a supernova which is dangerous for *MULTIPLE LIGHTYEARS*. The Deathstar has nowhere near that effect, plus the artifints have far more of the supernova bombs than the empire has of death stars (umm, just one, in fact!), which are in turn far stealthier (100% EM ABSORPTION FOR THE WIN!) and far smaller and hence far easier to use. They also can do interesting things such as turn planets into antimatter bombs. And besides, they have AI circuitry capable of surviving inside the core of a star. The Empire's ships don't jump into the middle of stars just for the heck of it, do they now? The Death Star, also, would be fairly unimpressive in OA God-terms, as they could have, in theory, several dozen GodHammers, which are basically really really powerful wormhole-based weapons. Harnessing pulsars and magnetars, which are rather significantly more powerful. OA God *scout fleets* can turn a planet into nothing more than thin smears of dust within days.

Okay. So first you are wanking about how OA is "hard sci-fi" (even tough that's blatantly wrong) - and then you are appealing to
-semi-magical nova bombs that can somehow make a star go supernova instantly
-super-powerful, unrealistic supernovas produced by those
-and a 100% efficiency process (not that it'll help you, since SW-sensors can detect gravity).
I think a smart person will see the errors of your ways here.

Furthermore, capturing the energy of something or producing it on your own are two different things. One is not necessarily superior to the other, but in this case it's pretty clear that OA has nothing that matches the reactor outputs of SW.

-They build much larger and much more exotic infrastructure than what SW has ever shown, give me a break dude!

So what? The ability to build a skyscraper does not translate into the ability to build a microchip.
It's evident that you do not understand the meaning of the word "infrastructure" or "factory".

-Cool. Then whatever barrier has prevented the AI gods from building hyperdrives is lifted upon contact with the warsies. The only reason OA can't go FTL is because such things are impossible in real life, not the other way around, and contact with SW degrades that scientific accuracy down by an order of magnitude.

There is no basis for that assumption.
But hey - let's play your little game. All your AIs are now just large, very slow computers that are slowly breaking down due to gravity. Your wormholes go POOF, since they don't work with real science either. Your reactionless drives stop working, your nanotech breaks down.
You might not know enough about science to realize it - but OA is no more realistic than Star Wars. It tries very hard to "appear" realistic, but most of it's technology is just as outlandish as hyperdrives. Basically - you have been lied to, and you are dumb enough to swallow that load (of crap).

[Lord Insanity]

Besides, the Death Star puts out more energy than the sun in a week - with a single shot. And is capable of shooting at least once every 24 hours. Therefore, it has a HIGHER energy output than the sun.

Just an FYI, according to the Alderaan calculations on the main site here the Death Star puts out more energy than the sun in 8,000 years - with a single shot.

[Uncluttered]

So, magic antimatter-manufacturing beams, a misunderstanding of what a supernova is, femtotech (hahaha), all these make Orion's Arm hard sci-fi? It seems that the definition has become fuzzier and fuzzier. You provide some woo-woo who believes in chakras and proclaims that the Uncertainty Principle might be overcome, so femtotech is plausible. By that same token, we may discover preferred reference frames that allow us to go FTL and overcome General Relativity, therefore, FTL is just as plausible.

But that website is frankly, adorable. It reeks of the urge to kick televised sci-fi out of the clubhouse, even though Firefly is far more plausible than the majority, indeed totality, of Known Space or Dune. I notice that no visual SF falls into the hard categories. It's almost cute the way he expounds in one sentence about how story quality taking precedence over adherence to science is a soft quality, then a few sentences later explains that quality is not dependent on hardness or softness. Simply adorable.

I agree with you. You've got a knack for finding peoples dissonance. If you ever see it in me, give me a PM.
Fanboys like that make it hard to want to defend OA against SW. OA needs an edit, and not just the content.
For the record, OA is (slightly) hard(er) than SW, but he annoys me as much as Serafina.
Neither one expresses an original idea.To see them arguing is like reading a feedback loop of stunted chatterbots trying to sell each other off-brand placebos.

Moving forward.
Lets dispence with this hyperspace shit. We are amplifying superficial details. I'm going to strip the details out, because the details contain baggage which triggers the collective cognitive dissonance.
The distilliation of the scenario is: "Magic vs the superbrain"
(magic being an advanced technology, blah blah I repeat myself here for your benefit)
--------
Uncluttered theatre presents: Who would win in a fight between Magicians and Superbrains? An Adventure in Q & A !!

Can regular people learn magic in magicland?
- Yes. We know that in magicland, almost everyone has learned to make magic, they are all magicians.

Can regular people learn magic in superbrainland?
- If magic can exist in superbrainland, then regular people should be able to make magic there too.

Can the superbrains learn magic?
- If superbrains are better at learning everything than regular people are , then they should be able to make magic too.

Can regular people make superbrains in superbrainland?
- Yes. We know that in superbrainland, almost everyone has the ability to create (or become) a superbrain if they wanted too.

Can regular people in magicland create superbrains?
-If superbrains can exist in magicland, then regular people should be able to make superbrains there too.

If regular people in superbrainland/magicland can't make magic/superbrains, are they stupid?
-No. It means they are being interfered with.


Why don't the superbrains/magicians have magic/superbrains, when it is common in magicland/superbrainland?
-We know the real answer is author fiat. OA likes superbrains, but doesn't like magic. Lukas likes Magic, but wants human level protagonists.
Staying in pretend mode though.
-In SOME VS scenarios we like to pretend magic and superbrains were always possible, but the superbrains weren't clapping enough and the magicians can't do math.
-In other VS scenarios, we like to pretend the magicians brought the magic with them, and the superbrains brought the math with them.

Wait, but someone on SN.Net/OA website said the other guys are stupid because they don't have magic/superbrains?
- That's called "Appeal to authority" which is fine if the authority is going to come down here and argue for you on it's own merits. Most of the time, the authority is busy getting stroked by fanpersons, and can't be bothered to leave the couch. The authority does not care to be your friend, and you owe it nothing. Also, the website is probably admined for the authority by a fanperson with a roomful of cats. Not to be judgemental, but they might enjoy being a big fish in a small pond because their short pathetic lives in the realworld are a horror beyond imagining.
-------------

If the universe() was constant, both of these civilizations seem rather hoplessly lopsided.
I can postulate, that the superbrains are suppressing magic, and that the magicians are suppressing the math for superbrains.
Both of these scenarios are unrealistic.
Superbrains are not omnipotent. There are fringe civilizations made up of only regular people.
The magicians are not omnipotent. Fringe kingdoms would have made superbrains if they knew how, and the do KNOW how.

So here's the answer.
Magic and superbrains cancel each other out. This explains a lot, and makes the VS scenerio more interesting.

[Stark]

You're a fucking moron. Do you really think this is applicable? You can't even spell properly!

This stupidity is only an issue because OA claims their ridiculous AI can reserve engineer quickly, something usually discarded in vs as impractical. Its up to them to prove they can quickly assimilate a new techbase to use FTL, instead of saying OMGZORS 58975987598759587958759759857 INTELLIGENCES INSTANT SCIENCE.

The saddest part about the preceding post is the incredible preening pretension.

[Uncluttered]

You're a fucking moron. Do you really think this is applicable? You can't even spell properly!

How's that impulse control problem working for you? Not well I see.

This stupidity is only an issue because OA claims

OA claim nothing to you stark. They aren't on this thread. What is on this thread is accounts from SD.net voicing opinions.

their ridiculous AI can reserve engineer quickly,

If two planets in SW can reverse engineer Rakata hyperdrive in 200 years, i'm sure megabrains with several orders of magnitude industrial power have a leg up.

also. Grammer police cannot "reserve engineer" in the same post criticizing spelling and/or grammer. It makes you look like a sloppy hypocrite. At least calm down, sober up and wait a post.

something usually discarded in vs

I don't give a crap if you usually like to eat vanilla icecream with your bigmac.
Be a grownup and adapt. Unless you wear a black polyester robe and work on a supreme court, your precedence means NOTHING.

as impractical.

Hyperdrive is ALL over Far-Far-Away galaxy stark. It's probably THE single easiest FTL to reverse engineer in the multiverse. Everybody has one.

Your VS scenarios usually include a much lower techbase, and rarely include an opponent that is more intelligent BY CANON. When it's a fair fight you cry fowl.

Its up to them to prove they can quickly assimilate a new techbase to use FTL,

Actually, this is the last thing you want. If the writers of OA wanted to "prove" this, they could just write it as canon.

Right now, canon has no such thing as FTL in OA, in any form. This is a HUGE difference between the usual scenario you sit at home wanking to, which consists of StarWars vs the Startrek Federation.
In Startrek, everything goes as canon. Slipsteam,hyperdrive,warpdrive,transwarp,transvestite. They are the slut of technobabble.

Let me repeat this since it you seem to be too angry to pay attention.

OA CANON DOES NOT ALLOW FTL. IN A VS SCENARIO YOU ARE CHANGING OA CANON WHEN YOU WANK YOUR FTL ALL OVER IT.

Instead of saying OMGZORS 58975987598759587958759759857 INTELLIGENCES INSTANT SCIENCE.

Nice strawman stark. I can't seem to find anyone claiming that science was instantaneous with big brains, merely a lot quicker. Why would you dispute this? Has StarWars become a dogma for you?

The saddest part about the preceding post is the incredible preening pretension.

Well stark. I find no value in your post. You made no clear effort to establish a point. You seem to think you are some sort of authority because you've posted 20000 times, and are a big fish here.

I'm pretty sure you define pretentiousness today.

Come on admit it. It was the remark about the cats.

[Stark]

How much is 'a lot'? Quantify or fuck off. Magic science due to simpleminded extrapolations of a 'law' that isn't is the core of OA. The only reason anyone is even talking about reverse engineering is becuase OA claims ludicrous capabiliities for the AI; in other vs it's simply discarded as impractical. Clearly, someone has to show that it is practical in this case, instead of meaningless howling about whether or not the AI would already have FTL if billy goats were wizards or whatever the fuck.

Sorry I couldn't stop laughing every time I read BY CANON in bold. Actually no, your sadass whining about 'precedence' (nice red herring btw) is the funniest part. Please go back to inventing chilish analogies instead of providing evidence (for instance, a fanfic piece of offical canon where a wAInk quickly understood, built and fielded a totally new technology in a practical timeframe. It can even be written by you, if you like.

Actually, Blake's 7 canon doesn't allow supercomputers without Tarriel cells. Uh oh! OA in trouble, send help!

[Uncluttered]

How much is 'a lot'? Quantify or fuck off. Magic science due to simpleminded extrapolations of a 'law' that isn't is the core of OA. The only reason anyone is even talking about reverse engineering is becuase OA claims ludicrous capabiliities for the AI; in other vs it's simply discarded as impractical. Clearly, someone has to show that it is practical in this case, instead of meaningless howling about whether or not the AI would already have FTL if billy goats were wizards or whatever the fuck.

Sorry I couldn't stop laughing every time I read BY CANON in bold. Actually no, your sadass whining about 'precedence' (nice red herring btw) is the funniest part. Please go back to inventing chilish analogies instead of providing evidence (for instance, a fanfic piece of offical canon where a wAInk quickly understood, built and fielded a totally new technology in a practical timeframe. It can even be written by you, if you like.

Actually, Blake's 7 canon doesn't allow supercomputers without Tarriel cells. Uh oh! OA in trouble, send help!

Wow. Such an incoherent rant. I don't even know where to begin.
It's so unfollowable, I can't refute it. It's like arguing with funhouse mirror in sign language.

I think the best part was complaining about red herrings, then bringing blake's 7 into this.
It's a comic masterpiece. I don't think this was your intention.
Billy Goats. Really?
---------
If you are done wasting everyones time; please get back on topic, and stop foaming.
You seem to forget that you are writing to and about multiple people, with multiple nuanced points of view. Lumping us altogether is something an idiot would do. You aren't an idiot stark.
If you having nothing new or useful to contribute, why don't you take 5 and cool down.

[Stark]

So you can't provide any examples of OA silliness doing what people are claiming they will do with FTL technology? Funny way to concede, but ok.

I can see you remain obsessed with posturing instead of actually adressing anything other than by constructing false comparisons. What are we to expect from someone who says it violates OA canon to have them in a vs with FTL and not extending the same to other universes?

[asedra]

'So, magic antimatter-manufacturing beams, a misunderstanding of what a supernova is, femtotech (hahaha), all these make Orion's Arm hard sci-fi?'
-No, it means we can kick your ass to the moon. Seriously, though, femtotech aside (yes, the very idea is laughable if you read up mike wongs post on nanotech wank), OA sets the bar for hardness a lot better than SW or ST have managed. No FTL travel or communications, no magic hypermatter, no ultra efficient heat radiators (thermal exhaust ports, anyone?), no energy shields, no anti-gravity, etc. And what is really hilarious is that star wars has all this stuff, and yet, they don't also have *genetic engineering, nanotechnology, toposophic AI, biological immortality, etc. That is soft sci fi. Your civilisation should have had this (by comparison) simple technology LONG before they began manufacturing hyperdrives. By the weak ass arguments you have been hurling at us (archailects must be failures since they haven't developed scientifically impossible FTL, haha), I could go right around and argue that SW must really be the stupid and backwards empire, because unlike us, they have not perfected all of these * before having developed superluminal travel. Midiclorians, much? How about the force, or hand blasters which generate enormous energy from such an implausibly small power pack? Not to mention the ecological absurdity of a city planet (Coruscant) maintaining a breathable atmosphere. Lame. So don't try to sell me your garbage theory on OA soft science, take a look in the mirror before you go spouting such nonsense. You are the weaker party in regards to hardness, and that is all there is to say about that.

And while some may baulk at the idea of an OA cousin page grading science fiction hardness (for whatever biased reasons that person may have), the guy actually does a very good job, and I challenge anyone who has a fault with it to do better (or even come up with a valid complaint, go ahead). From the comments I have heard, you seem to be under the vague impression that he was singling you out or shit. Complain all you want, though. I heard not a single valid attack from you. Your just sad he gave SW the low rating it rightly deserved

'I notice that no visual SF falls into the hard categories.'
-Explain.

'It's almost cute the way he expounds in one sentence about how story quality taking precedence over adherence to science is a soft quality, then a few sentences later explains that quality is not dependent on hardness or softness.'
-You must be autistic. He was explaining the tendency of soft sci fi to discard realism in favour of story, not what you were saying. Quality is in the mind of the beholder. Hardness is another factor altogether, seperate from qaulity. Try not to have any more brain farts, m'kay?

[asedra]

Besides, the Death Star puts out more energy than the sun in a week - with a single shot. And is capable of shooting at least once every 24 hours. Therefore, it has a HIGHER energy output than the sun.

Just an FYI, according to the Alderaan calculations on the main site here the Death Star puts out more energy than the sun in 8,000 years - with a single shot.

-Gosh, thats a heck of a lot of energy, isn't it? Something like, what 3x38 Joules? Guess what? A one solar mass star, when lit up by one of our conversion bombs, will release roughly 6.6X46 Joules of death, expanding in a spherical blast radius which none will survive. That beats out your death star out by a factor of, what, 200 million? Yeah, so I guess we beat you pretty badly in that department, especially when one considers that, whereas the galactic empire has only had one death star at a time, we have a fucking arsenal full of these converion bombs. Orions arm easily exceeds star wars in the game of mass destruction. But, I guess thats just wank, eh?

[Crossroads Inc.]

'So, magic antimatter-manufacturing beams, a misunderstanding of what a supernova is, femtotech (hahaha), all these make Orion's Arm hard sci-fi?'

-No, it means we can kick your ass to the moon. Seriously, though, femtotech aside (yes, the very idea is laughable if you read up Mike Wongs post on nanotech wank), OA sets the bar for hardness a lot better than SW or ST have managed. No FTL travel or communications, no magic hypermatter, no ultra efficient heat radiators (thermal exhaust ports, anyone?), no energy shields, no anti-gravity, etc. And what is really hilarious is that star wars has all this stuff, and yet, they don't also have *genetic engineering, nanotechnology, toposophic AI, biological immortality, etc. That is soft sci fi. Your civilization should have had this (by comparison) simple technology LONG before they began manufacturing hyperdrives. By the weak ass arguments you have been hurling at us (architects must be failures since they haven't developed scientifically impossible FTL, haha), I could go right around and argue that SW must really be the stupid and backwards empire, because unlike us, they have not perfected all of these * before having developed superluminal travel. Midiclorians, much? How about the force, or hand blasters which generate enormous energy from such an implausibly small power pack? Not to mention the ecological absurdity of a city planet (Coruscant) maintaining a breathable atmosphere. Lame. So don't try to sell me your garbage theory on OA soft science, take a look in the mirror before you go spouting such nonsense. You are the weaker party in regards to hardness, and that is all there is to say about that.

And while some may baulk at the idea of an OA cousin page grading science fiction hardness (for whatever biased reasons that person may have), the guy actually does a very good job, and I challenge anyone who has a fault with it to do better (or even come up with a valid complaint, go ahead). From the comments I have heard, you seem to be under the vague impression that he was singling you out or shit. Complain all you want, though. I heard not a single valid attack from you. Your just sad he gave SW the low rating it rightly deserved

'I notice that no visual SF falls into the hard categories.'

-Explain.

'It's almost cute the way he expounds in one sentence about how story quality taking precedence over adherence to science is a soft quality, then a few sentences later explains that quality is not dependent on hardness or softness.'

-You must be autistic. He was explaining the tendency of soft sci fi to discard realism in favor of story, not what you were saying. Quality is in the mind of the beholder. Hardness is another factor altogether, separate from quality. Try not to have any more brain farts, m'kay?

Ye Gods,
Learn to use Quotes and Spellchecker, and that is coming from ME.