Star Wars Prequels: Were they "Almost Universally Panned?"

[Kurgan]

That brings up another controversial subject... who exactly was the target audience of the Star Wars Prequels?

One could argue, I suppose, if a craptastic movie was a big hit with fans of craptastic movies... then it was a success.

The whole "universally panned" is hyperbolic, but I don't think it was ever intended to mean that 99.9999% of people who saw the movie hated it, but it is open to interpretation. If we look at the traditional media, only Episode III squeaked by as a "good" film. If we consider the "popularity" which is mostly made up of the electronic new media, then the prequels were all good, maybe even better than the OT when they first came out (but not as they are viewed now, by that same new media collective).

I'm not sure where one could go to get a more objective view of what "the masses" really feel about the Prequels, short of doing another set of theatrical releases, or some kind of independent poll (subject to less of the error that say, an IMDB poll would have).

Maybe a 50 years from now, Episode I will become a cult hit, and spawn a host of new memes and nostalgia hype. We have no way of knowing. I think it's safe to say that Episode I was a financial success, but did not meet expectations, and I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying and not merely because those expectations were sky high. I think the fact that there was an eventual backlash against Episode I with enough of the fanbase, that Lucas re-tooled the next two Episodes from what they might have been otherwise (and I'm not for one second supporting the idea that Lucas had it "all planned out in advance" I mean following the trends of the first movie and the buzz at the time).

[Darth Fanboy]

The problem with the prequels was that the part of the story that would become Episode III had all the stuff everyone wanted to see, and Lucas felt it necessary to set all of that up with TPM and AoTC.

I think what people expected out of the prequel movies in terms of plot, was that there would be three movies like Episode III and when two of the films turned out to be backstory setting up for the third, well...people wanted something else and I think it's that sentiment which created a fair portion of the fan-negativity towards the films. That and Jar Jar Binks, yeah. After TPM debuted fans had to wait years to get the payoff they were hoping for.

[Junghalli]

The problem with the prequels was that the part of the story that would become Episode III had all the stuff everyone wanted to see, and Lucas felt it necessary to set all of that up with TPM and AoTC.

I couldn't have put it better. I remember reading one review that said something to the effect of the problem with TPM was that it told a story that didn't need to be told, or should have been told in twenty minutes.

[DudeGuyMan]

Reviews weren't especially negative, box office receipts were excellent, and even two-thirds of Box Office Mojo readers gave Phantom Menace a grade of B or better. I've never seen any evidence for this "everyone hated the prequels" meme that amounted to anything.

[Darth Fanboy]

I couldn't have put it better. I remember reading one review that said something to the effect of the problem with TPM was that it told a story that didn't need to be told, or should have been told in twenty minutes.

I think TPM told a very good and very relevant story, but the discovery of Anakin Skywalker wasn't nearly as anticipated as his fall. I've gone on record as saying that the events of Episode II would have made for a good "starting point", although I know that it could not have been the first movie of a prequel trilogy and stayed exactly the same and then there could have been another movie that encapsulates a major event of the clone wars, followed by Episode III. Maybe we end up seeing Anakin's rescue of Padme on Geonosis as the jumping off point of their relationship, but without the angsty build up from Anakin in the events in between. TPM then becomes something else entirely.

However I do believe that there are some points of Episode I that are really awesome Star Wars moments, most of them revolving around Qui Gon Jinn who I think was an awesome character.

Also, I think that the events between TPM and AoTC, where it's Obi Wan and a young Anakin Skywalker would have made for a good TV show along the lines of what is currently being done with CLone Wars, and there is a lot more time to play with then as well it doesn't end up with a timeline clusterfuck, although my previous reservations about being 100% perfect with the timeline between the show, novels, and comics are wearing away fast and I really don't have a problem if there is a small contradiction every so often anymore.

[Stofsk]

However I do believe that there are some points of Episode I that are really awesome Star Wars moments, most of them revolving around Qui Gon Jinn who I think was an awesome character.

As much as I hate the prequels, and TPM especially, Qui Gon Jinn was indeed awesome - I attribute much of that to Liam Neeson is a fantastic and charismatic actor.

The problem is you had good actors like Ewan MacGregor and Natalie Portman who come off flat in the movie. This may have been more a writing issue though, Qui Gon got more screentime and more lines, while Obi-wan was too second-chair and didn't say much, and the whole 'Queen Amidala/Padme' thing felt clumsy.

[Darth Yan]

No. They aren't as beloved as the OT, but I have seen quite a few critics who do like it. Hell I liked it for the most part (Anakin's bad romance lines not withstanding.) If the Acting hadn't been horrible it times, it might actually have been liked more.

[starfury]

The problem with the prequels was that the part of the story that would become Episode III had all the stuff everyone wanted to see, and Lucas felt it necessary to set all of that up with TPM and AoTC.

I posted the same thoughts on similar threads on the PT vs the classic trilogy, this stands out far then anything less on comparsion, the entire first two movies felt like something you could crame into a exposition for ROTS, which I think even Lucas stated had 80% of the actual story.

[Kurgan]

I don't think TPM was 100% crap, it had its moments. Sadly they were sandwiched between crap and boredom, or just plain irrelevance.

I side with those who said that the Qui Gon Jinn character should have been Obi-Wan (as it was in the early treatments). I guess they really wanted to be able to kill him off in a lightsaber battle to motivate the "new hero" (and thus repeat themes from ANH).

People have criticized the saber fight in TPM as looking "too choreographed" and I can see that criticism, but at the same time, I think it's the most exciting and impressive looking saber battle in the entire series (yes, I said it, the whole series). The original Star Wars battle makes sense if you look at it like two guys are REALLY using glowing energy death rods (even though the "real reason" was expectations of the time and the fact that each guy had a fragile appliance and a battery pack up their sleeve). But that's ruined by ESB where suddenly we have flips, twirls, and one handed fighting, etc. now people say it looks lame. As cool as the Episode III fight tried to be, it just seemed longer than it needed to be, and blah blah blah what people have said before.

I think the "expectations" criticism of the Prequels certainly was a daunting challenge, but it could have been handled better, as others have said. If Lucas had not listened to the fans and just made Episodes II and III how he had wanted to, or just gone with his "gut" after Episode I, we would have gotten something different. Had he sat down and planned out a three part story arc back in 1994-7, it would really have been different.

As Michael Kaminiski pointed out in his book, one of the problems with the Mythos (including what we were supposed to see unfold in the Prequels) was that Lucas changed the "backstory" and timeline at least twice while he was making the Original Trilogy alone, never mind during the making of Episode I and later. I love Star Wars, but its continuity is something of a mini-nightmare, of Lucas' own creation.

[Elfdart]

As Michael Kaminiski pointed out in his book, one of the problems with the Mythos (including what we were supposed to see unfold in the Prequels) was that Lucas changed the "backstory" and timeline at least twice while he was making the Original Trilogy alone, never mind during the making of Episode I and later. I love Star Wars, but its continuity is something of a mini-nightmare, of Lucas' own creation.

Anything that delusional moron (who thinks he knows more about what George Lucas was thinking than Lucas himself) writes needs to be taken with a truckload of salt. To the degree that Lucas changed his mind on stories and characters it was probably for the better. There aren't really any problems with the story or characters, except that many a middle-aged, disgruntled fanboy thinks Lucas should have told their stories and used their characters.

[Elfdart]

Not only were the prequels NOT panned, they did better with critics than the originals did when they were first released.

That's interesting, and it definitely demonstrates how initial critical response (whether positive or negative) is not always an accurate prediction of how a movie will be regarded over time. That's why it's more important to look at how a movie is regarded years or decades after its release.

It's much more important to realize that critics by and large are bullshitters with a herd mentality, and to form your own opinions about what you like. The fact that reviewers change their reviews should tell you all you need to know.

At this point, it's been over a decade since the first Prequel was released. TPM was released in 1999, and AOTC was released in 2002, 11 and 8 years ago respectively. Right now, the aggregate opinion regarding these films is generally pretty low compared to the originals. So what was the aggregate opinion regarding ANH and ESB 10 years after their release, in 1987/1990? I'm pretty sure both of those films were already considered classics by 1990. (At least, by 1997 both ANH and ESB appeared alongside movies like The Godfather and Citizen Kane on AFI's top 100 list.) But here we are, 10 years after the Prequels, and it's doubtful they will ever reach anywhere near such acclaim. I'd be surprised if they're even remembered 20 or 30 years down the line.

There's one big difference: The OT films weren't as readily available on home video or cable (in fact, they were re-released in theaters like Disney used to do with their films), so they were kept out of the public eye. On top of that, when they came on network TV they were shown maybe once a year and didn't wear out their welcome with audiences. This actually builds up interest. The PT is not only readily available on DVD, it's on Spike on a regular basis, large chunks of the movie can be watched online and so on.

[Jim Raynor]

The statement that the SW Prequels were "universally panned" is massive, self-important exaggeration, that doesn't fit with the known facts. All of the movies were box office hits, that continue to sell toys and cartoons a decade later. Despite heavily mixed reviews for Episodes I and II, all three movies qualified as "Fresh" on Rotten Tomatoes's general scores. It's true that the "Cream of the Crop" scores on RT were lower, but "Cream of the Crop" critics are a smaller sample and besides 40% isn't nearly "universally panned" either. AOTC's Cinemascore (an exit polling system that has proven to be a very good gauge of real audience opinion) was a very strong A-. Cinemascore reporting wasn't nearly as widespread a decade or even a few years ago (unlike now when just about every major release's Cinemascore is reported), so TPM and ROTS's scores haven't been revealed as far as I know. However it's a safe bet that ROTS scored just as high if not higher.

Claiming that nearly everyone hated these movies is not based on anything but skewed fanboy opinion. I also think that it should be pointed out that it's the geeks who are still hating on these movies after all these years. The normal, mainstream person does not have such an emotional investment in movies, and wouldn't spend all of this time and energy raging over a film that disappointed them over a decade ago. The normal, mainstream person uses the internet for Google or FaceBook, not for message boards.

As Michael Kaminiski pointed out in his book, one of the problems with the Mythos (including what we were supposed to see unfold in the Prequels) was that Lucas changed the "backstory" and timeline at least twice while he was making the Original Trilogy alone, never mind during the making of Episode I and later. I love Star Wars, but its continuity is something of a mini-nightmare, of Lucas' own creation.

Anything that delusional moron (who thinks he knows more about what George Lucas was thinking than Lucas himself) writes needs to be taken with a truckload of salt. To the degree that Lucas changed his mind on stories and characters it was probably for the better. There aren't really any problems with the story or characters, except that many a middle-aged, disgruntled fanboy thinks Lucas should have told their stories and used their characters.

What continuity problems was this guy bringing up? The backstory of the original trilogy was so vague that there was nothing to contradict. Anakin fought in something called the "Clone Wars" before turning into Darth Vader and wiping out the Jedi. That's basically all we got before the prequels, and those things all still hold true. It's not Lucas's fault if fans came up with their own preconceived fanon about the Jedi fighting clones of themselves or whatever. Nothing I saw in the prequels was as jarring as Luke and Leia suddenly being brother and sister in ROTJ.

Honestly, I think the saga holds up quite well including the prequels. Now, we have a multi-generational epic with the same common themes (resisting fear and poisonous hatred, breaking free and learning from the past generation's mistakes) being conveyed across six movies.

[Jim Raynor]

At this point, it's been over a decade since the first Prequel was released. TPM was released in 1999, and AOTC was released in 2002, 11 and 8 years ago respectively. Right now, the aggregate opinion regarding these films is generally pretty low compared to the originals. So what was the aggregate opinion regarding ANH and ESB 10 years after their release, in 1987/1990? I'm pretty sure both of those films were already considered classics by 1990. (At least, by 1997 both ANH and ESB appeared alongside movies like The Godfather and Citizen Kane on AFI's top 100 list.) But here we are, 10 years after the Prequels, and it's doubtful they will ever reach anywhere near such acclaim. I'd be surprised if they're even remembered 20 or 30 years down the line.

The SW prequels do not have the impact of the originals, simply because the originals came first and changed blockbuster movies forever. Yes, there are also some valid criticisms that can be raised against them. But to suggest that the prequels won't be "remembered" in 20 years is as ridiculous and exaggerated as saying that these movies were "universally panned." People remember just about any silly movie from the 1980s, including movies that made less money and weren't even as well regarded as the prequels.

And while some fanboys continue to bitch about Lucas's every move (even without so much as seeing a moment of his new work), he is doing things to keep SW in the public consciousness. The prequels continue to sell toys, there is an ongoing animated series based on the prequels, and those movies will be re-released in theaters again in a few years. A new generation of young fans (the people that middle-aged fanboys often forget to consider, even as their own numbers dwindle while they age into irrelevance) is being brought up on these movies. So yes, these movies will be remembered in 20 years.

[Metahive]

I feel very good today, having just successfully completed an exam. Therefore I concede on all points (except on being a fatty nerd for not liking PM but that's subjective value judgement anyway) and withdraw my arguments from the debate.

[Kurgan]

Anything that delusional moron (who thinks he knows more about what George Lucas was thinking than Lucas himself) writes needs to be taken with a truckload of salt.

It'd be great if somebody would for once back up those charges of delusion on his part.

Anyway, can you blame him when Lucas is the one who has consistently lied about what he said in the past regarding his own movies? Changing your mind is one thing, pretending you never said the opposite of what you're saying now (and even not so subtly attacking the people who believed you in the first place), despite the public record, is another. And the fact is that he doesn't just "go after" Lucas either, as he problematizes certain comments made by the likes of Kurtz and Pollock as well.

If Kaminski is a "delusional moron" for bringing these issues to light, I suppose then so is Jonathan Rinzler, because his latest works expose the falsehood of the whole "always intended" BS Lucas has been spouting for a little over a decade. But since he's licensed, maybe he should get a pass?

To the degree that Lucas changed his mind on stories and characters it was probably for the better. There aren't really any problems with the story or characters, except that many a middle-aged, disgruntled fanboy thinks Lucas should have told their stories and used their characters.

Spoken like another disgruntled fanboy? We're not talking about "the fan's stories" or "fan's characters" we're talking about Lucas' own stories. The reason people write fan fics today about "what might have been" is irrelevant, as is any nerd rage over some perceived slight to an EU character (if that's what you were implying there).

This is about the "always intended" revisionism BS. Many fans thought the older backstories would have been better. The first "plot twist" of turning Vader into Luke's father was one a lot of people loved, even though it screwed up the mythos. I don't think anyone is blaming him for that. But after that it seemed as if he wanted to throw in twists that make everybody related and reverse what was previously naturally presumed or established, just to do them. Now Leia is Luke's sister, Vader built C3PO, Vader is not only from Luke's home planet but his family still lives in the same house he visited during the Clone Wars when his mom died and also owns C3PO, R2D2 was owned by Luke's mom and was Vader's personal droid and good friends with himself and Obi-Wan and saved their lives in the old days, Chewbacca was war buddies with Yoda and helped him escape to Dagobah, etc. I mean c'mon, now Obi-Wan's master's master was a Sith Lord, the right hand man to the Emperor who masterminded the whole Clone War and personally fought Yoda. Thank heaven he stopped short of giving us kid Solo knowing Bail Organa or Palpatine being Anakin's father.

So anyway, I wouldn't consider people who actually remembered the original films going in to somehow be at fault for noticing some issues. Who were these films made for, anyway?

The hackneyed/irrelevant plot twists are second only to the continuity gaffes they caused as a source of annoyance to people. Which do you think was more important to fans (not just "fanboys") of Star Wars? That nearly every possible reference to the old movies be randomly tossed in, regardless of consequences, or that they told a good story with likable characters in their own right that fit with the established continuity as well as possible?

[Bakustra]

I think that Lucas should not make movies for the continuity-obsessed. I think that his intent was to make the prequels for a wide audience, not just for original fans (ha) and especially not for original fanboys. I applaud him for this. I also think that this is an example of projection. You, and Galvatron, are probably the only Star Wars fans I know who whine about ROTJ like this. Most people don't care, nor should they, as long as the movies are entertaining and inconsistencies aren't right in your face. Nor was it "nearly every possible reference" to the original movies being tossed in, as you admitted.

[Kurgan]

I think that Lucas should not make movies for the continuity-obsessed.

Either that, or he should just stick to his frickin' story.

I think that his intent was to make the prequels for a wide audience, not just for original fans (ha) and especially not for original fanboys.

You may be right about the wide audience. That may explain why we got the identity crisis that goes on... between wanting to be a political drama, to a sappy romance, to a flashy action flick, to a slapstick comedy, to being an adventure picture telling the backstory to Star Wars, to being an original Sci Fi tech demo.

I applaud him for this. I also think that this is an example of projection. You, and Galvatron, are probably the only Star Wars fans I know who whine about ROTJ like this.

Me? RoTJ (the original version) is my favorite of the series and always has been. It's the other fans who generally whine about ROTJ, because they hated the Ewoks, thought the Leia-sister thing was lame, and get angry because Han Solo and Vader weren't at the top of their game... and a lot of other reasons relating to it not being more like Empire. Of those complaints, only the Leia-sister thing really bothers me anymore. When I was a kid, I had barely seen the other two, so it didn't seem that jarring. But now it seems obvious he just wanted to pull another rabbit out of the hat (well, and the practical reason of saying he'd tied up all the loose ends because he'd run out of steam on making the series, was going through his divorce, etc).

Most people don't care, nor should they, as long as the movies are entertaining and inconsistencies aren't right in your face.

How more "in your face" could the inconsistencies be? The fact is that the Star Wars Trilogy are mainstream, and fans knew the movies pretty well, apparently better than the guy who created them.

Imagine if somebody filmed a sequel to "Gone With the Wind" (I know, there already is one) where Scarlett and Rhett Butler were never married or had a kid, but just had sex. Would people get mad? The "story" is essentially intact because they still have a stormy romance. I think people would notice, and object, unless you went out of your way to explain you weren't making a direct sequel but just a reimagining. Or imagine if somebody made a prequel to Titanic where Leonardo DiCaprio's character was actually a prince in disguise, or Godfather IV in which Michael Corleone was Scotts-Irish. People know these movies so well, they'd notice and object. The creator of the film(s) would know this beforehand.

Nor was it "nearly every possible reference" to the original movies being tossed in, as you admitted.

Hyperbole. I'm sure they could have tossed in MORE references if they tried. My point is that a significant number of the OT references (if not a majority) end up being either irrelevant fanservice, or unnecessary create contradictions with the original movies. So sometimes it almost feels like he wanted to make some other movies, but grudgingly threw in stuff to pass it off as Star Wars to viewers who barely remembered the originals.

Referencing the originals, even often, isn't wrong, it's expected in making a prequel. It's the way it was pulled it off that is so often objectionable.

These were supposed to be new classics, right? I saw Men in Black II i the theater, after seeing the original on video and thinking it was a pretty fun sci fi action/comedy. In the theater nobody laughed. I thought the special effects were amazing, but after leaving the theater, within a few minutes I couldn't even remember what I'd just watched (and I knew what critics meant by saying something was "forgettable"). I've been to horror flicks where everybody in the theater seemed like they were having a good time and being entertained. After leaving, I had no desire to ever see the movie again, and would skip it if it came on TV.

If Lucas wasn't trying to create the rest of the Star Wars saga, why bother with this pretense of closing the saga? He should just farm out the rights to produce a dozen more Star Wars movies to others (since he's too tired to keep making them), that way he can keep making money off the brand. I guess instead he wants to leave his mark on TV and straight-to-video releases now. People can be entertained by new Star Wars stories until the end of time. I mean, why not? Instead he pretends to care about the integrity of the story and mythos, meanwhile seemingly doing his darnedest to screw it up and rub it in our faces.

[Bakustra]

See, ordinary people don't complain about this, most fans don't complain about this, so it's not in-your-face to anybody that's not continuity-obsessed. Hell, you're probably the only fan who bitches this much about the continuity.

Lucas probably doesn't want to continue with more movies because he used up the plot he had worked out for 6-9 in ROTJ. But this relies upon an odious belief amongst fans of any material, one which is made worse by your overuse of smilies. Well, Boss Smiley, you seem to treat your beliefs about the "integrity" of Star Wars as though they were the only ones that mattered. Lucas doesn't have to choose between withering the brand with sequels and maintaining your absurd, Baptist notions of "purity" for Star Wars. I don't agree with your beliefs on the "integrity" of Star Wars, Lucas doesn't, and the many, many people who enjoyed or merely disliked the prequels don't either. It's only the tiny set of people that rage about the prequels that even comes close, but you're part of a subset that goes further and rages about how it's not your vision.

[TOSDOC]

At this point, it's been over a decade since the first Prequel was released. TPM was released in 1999, and AOTC was released in 2002, 11 and 8 years ago respectively. Right now, the aggregate opinion regarding these films is generally pretty low compared to the originals. So what was the aggregate opinion regarding ANH and ESB 10 years after their release, in 1987/1990? I'm pretty sure both of those films were already considered classics by 1990. (At least, by 1997 both ANH and ESB appeared alongside movies like The Godfather and Citizen Kane on AFI's top 100 list.) But here we are, 10 years after the Prequels, and it's doubtful they will ever reach anywhere near such acclaim. I'd be surprised if they're even remembered 20 or 30 years down the line.

I remember the anecdotal opinion--The OT was widely anticipated at every turn. The only time I can remember the whole frigging school talking about a single movie the next morning was when ANH was finally aired on TV. That included the teachers! One of the biggest competitions between boys at the time was how many times one had seen ANH in the theater. ESB was an event for the whole family at my house when it finally came out on video. And look at how popular the Special Editions were when they were released on the big screen.

I think the viewing public has been dulled by the quick DVD release that occurs with movies today. It diminishes the movie-going experience, which is currently so expensive that many have to make a choice about which movie they will go see. Having seen a movie at home on video instead of in the theater will certainly affect one's perception of a movie--a lot of you note how much better the prequels seemed on the big screen. Lucas avoided that as long as he could with the OT for a reason. We wanted to see what we couldn't see every day, again and again. It's not the same when the DVD set is sitting so readily available on your shelf.

We also have the prequels affected by the Internet. Just look at our ONE website here, which has taken apart SW right down into its constituent snarks and boojums, from the analyses of individual screen shots to use of digital compositing in your math. Then remember it took some of us 15 years to even spot the stormtrooper smacking his head in the Death Star in ANH, using "video cassettes" back in the '80's.

The prequels will be remembered. Their acclaim will be affected by the times in which they were released as well as people's perceptions.

[Dooey Jo]

Vader built C3PO, Vader is not only from Luke's home planet but his family still lives in the same house he visited during the Clone Wars when his mom died and also owns C3PO, R2D2 was owned by Luke's mom and was Vader's personal droid and good friends with himself and Obi-Wan and saved their lives in the old days, Chewbacca was war buddies with Yoda and helped him escape to Dagobah, etc. I mean c'mon, now Obi-Wan's master's master was a Sith Lord, the right hand man to the Emperor who masterminded the whole Clone War and personally fought Yoda.

Are any of these elaborations really on the same level as Michael Corleone suddenly turning Scottish-Irish, or even inconsistent with anything?

[Galvatron]

I think that Lucas should not make movies for the continuity-obsessed. I think that his intent was to make the prequels for a wide audience, not just for original fans (ha) and especially not for original fanboys. I applaud him for this. I also think that this is an example of projection. You, and Galvatron, are probably the only Star Wars fans I know who whine about ROTJ like this. Most people don't care, nor should they, as long as the movies are entertaining and inconsistencies aren't right in your face. Nor was it "nearly every possible reference" to the original movies being tossed in, as you admitted.

Wait, what? How did I get dragged into this? And what words, exactly, are you putting in my mouth? I admit I didn't like ROTJ, but I'm unsure exactly what sort of "whining" you're referring to.

[Kurgan]

Vader built C3PO, Vader is not only from Luke's home planet but his family still lives in the same house he visited during the Clone Wars when his mom died and also owns C3PO, R2D2 was owned by Luke's mom and was Vader's personal droid and good friends with himself and Obi-Wan and saved their lives in the old days, Chewbacca was war buddies with Yoda and helped him escape to Dagobah, etc. I mean c'mon, now Obi-Wan's master's master was a Sith Lord, the right hand man to the Emperor who masterminded the whole Clone War and personally fought Yoda.

Are any of these elaborations really on the same level as Michael Corleone suddenly turning Scottish-Irish, or even inconsistent with anything?

In the sense that it would be an irrelevant twist that anyone who remembered the originals would find stupid and/or annoying. This example wasn't the greatest, as it might not "change" anything (like making Dumbledore gay). One could argue though that all this "We're all related, the world is shrinking daily" stuff is Lucas still trying to copy Dune.

[Bakustra]

I think that Lucas should not make movies for the continuity-obsessed. I think that his intent was to make the prequels for a wide audience, not just for original fans (ha) and especially not for original fanboys. I applaud him for this. I also think that this is an example of projection. You, and Galvatron, are probably the only Star Wars fans I know who whine about ROTJ like this. Most people don't care, nor should they, as long as the movies are entertaining and inconsistencies aren't right in your face. Nor was it "nearly every possible reference" to the original movies being tossed in, as you admitted.

Wait, what? How did I get dragged into this? And what words, exactly, are you putting in my mouth? I admit I didn't like ROTJ, but I'm unsure exactly what sort of "whining" you're referring to.

I'm referring to complaints about/objections to Leia being Luke's sister. You and Kurgan are the only people that I have really seen this from, so I provided it as an example of rarity, rather than being a negative per se (you are entitled to your opinions). But in retrospect, it was poorly phrased.

[Kurgan]

Most people I know thought the Father twist was cool, the sister twist was lame. I don't know every Star Wars fan, obviously.

It makes sense though. The puppy love between Luke and Leia is all over ESB (even after it was hinted in the original), which is the favorite among many fans (especially ones who were older than single digits in 1983). But suddenly ROTJ throws it out and say "oops, they are brother and sister." A lot of fans have blotted that out of their minds and just remember fondly the love/hate interaction between Han & Leia. In a sense, you have to privilege the story of ROTJ over ESB in order to approve and write-off the "sister" thing as making sense, which the "ESB is best" fans have a harder time doing.

The first time I ever met somebody who thought ROTJ sucked was 1997 (because of the Ewoks, of course).

[Galvatron]

I liked the father twist, but not the part about Vader and Anakin being the same guy. The sister twist? Meh. It's not so bad if you ignore the twincest shit from TESB.

Oh, and just to remain on-topic, try comparing the initial reviews of the PT and OT by "top critics." This was addressed in Kaminski's book as well.