(Torchwood)How would you have dealt with the 456?

[FaxModem1]

Torchwood's third season was the best it had, but it also left a bitter taste in my mouth. So, let's say you were in charge of the country you reside in, and had to deal with the ultimatum dealt by the 456, what would you do?

If you don't remember, its give us a 10th of your children or we'll take them all by force.

[NecronLord]

*Bring bring*

"Sarah Jane, could you get Mr Smith to feed this signal back to the 456?"

"Sure."

*456 die*

-------

If you're not talking about the stupid-as-shit ending, and want a 'moral dilemma' answer rather than a way to kill them all, I've said it before and will again.

Even assuing in-universe solutions are a no-no, you absolutely do not give them what they want. They are druggies, they will be back for more. They've already broken their word on this once. Stop them now.

[dragon]

Well since earth is a protected plantent I'm sure someone knows how to call the space cops or the doctor. Hell they should have asked Jack to start with.

[Chris OFarrell]

Anything but give in to them like Earth did.

Even ignoring the moral issues, the fact is that there is NOTHING stopping them coming back for more at a later date, and in larger numbers. Drug dealers just don't 'go away' if you give them what they want...right now.

I'd suggest that the reason the Doctor didn't show up in this situation is that it may have been one of those 'fixed in time' points that he talked about in Waters of Mars. That it HAD to go down like it did.

[NecronLord]

Anything but give in to them like Earth did.

Even ignoring the moral issues, the fact is that there is NOTHING stopping them coming back for more at a later date, and in larger numbers. Drug dealers just don't 'go away' if you give them what they want...right now.

I'd suggest that the reason the Doctor didn't show up in this situation is that it may have been one of those 'fixed in time' points that he talked about in Waters of Mars. That it HAD to go down like it did.

The problem with this is that he had already changed it by deposing Harriet Jones, who should have been Prime Minister until 2020 or so, and whose answer to the 456 would probably have been the same as it was last time some aliens demanded a huge percentage of the population as slaves:



It's almost certain that she'd just have Frobisher and his co-conspirators in Whitehall arrested and give Torchwood (which would probably not be so underfunded and useless) what they needed to solve the problem, instead of deciding to kill them all in a coverup.

Of course, RTD suggests that deposing Harriet Jones was a massive fuckup on the Doctor's part that allowed the Master to nearly conquer the universe by letting him get away with being elected Prime Minister, so it's likely the whole 456 incident lasting that long is the Doctor's fault.

[Stark]

Anything but give in to them like Earth did.

Even ignoring the moral issues, the fact is that there is NOTHING stopping them coming back for more at a later date, and in larger numbers. Drug dealers just don't 'go away' if you give them what they want...right now.

So when everyone dies with no chance of retaliation do you feel like a tough guy? You can't shoot a laser gun at these guys.

Not that anyone ever shot anythign at anyone after S2, but anyway. Pete's World would have been way more interesting.

[NecronLord]

You can't shoot a laser gun at these guys.

Assuming you're talking about the Dr Who setting, we really don't know that you can't. The government did set out to exterminate one of the top organisations (god help us) equipped to find their ship. Presumably Torchwood would have done somewhat better if the government didn't seal its leader in concrete. At which point, you actually could fire missiles at them (DW nukes being able to do this).

[tezunegari]

How dangerous were the 456 really?

As far as I remember what they did wasn't that impressive.
They gave a vaccine/cure for a flu strain in the 1940s.
Their communication either used the brains of children as conduit or it was a side effect of the signal. Either would be pretty stupid as it made a covert government reaction impossible.
They transported one envoy into a custom made environmental room - apparently they can't survive in an earth atmosphere.

Could the whole situation be solved by just denying their claims as Earth is a protected planet?
Maybe that was the reason the 456 contacted Earth with a demand of "give us..." instead of just taking the children...
Why not just take the children without warning unless they have to give them (relatively) freely?!

[NecronLord]

Earth isn't really protected, aside from the Doctor. The Shadow Proclamation forbid attacks on a Level 5 planet like Earth by any more developed civilization, and it's likely if they were aware of it they would purge the 456 (They certainly seem quite feared) but they have a universal purview, and Earth is, to them, nothing special.

The 456 would probably laugh at a threat to invoke the Shadow Proclamation without really understanding it, much as the Sycorax did.

[mr friendly guy]

1. Call the Doctor if able

2. Call UNIT

3. Call Torchwood

4. Call Sarah Jane.

Combined their capabilities for some whoop arse. Ok, I am being blaise about it, but really, what the government did was a bit defeatist. Even the conspiracy dudes in X-files only pretended to help the aliens while at the same time making a vaccine against their "essence." You would think the government here could pretend to help the aliens while gathering allies to formulate a plan.

[Stark]

You forgot UNIT is evil, dude.

[Ryushikaze]

You forgot UNIT is evil, dude.

Is there a chart to consult that can let us know when they're evil and not? Or is it just 'Oldwho, good but not always the right answer, NuWho- EVIL?'

[Stark]

I think they became evil once their leaders were white instead of minorities. I mean they do run space Gitmo.

[Bedlam]

How dangerous were the 456 really?

As far as I remember what they did wasn't that impressive.
They gave a vaccine/cure for a flu strain in the 1940s.
Their communication either used the brains of children as conduit or it was a side effect of the signal. Either would be pretty stupid as it made a covert government reaction impossible.
They transported one envoy into a custom made environmental room - apparently they can't survive in an earth atmosphere.

Could the whole situation be solved by just denying their claims as Earth is a protected planet?
Maybe that was the reason the 456 contacted Earth with a demand of "give us..." instead of just taking the children...
Why not just take the children without warning unless they have to give them (relatively) freely?!

The big problem is that the governments just dont know what they can or cant do. They could well have been bluffing about being able to kill everyone but you don't know so you can go along with them and hand over 10% of your children or you can call their bluff, then either nothing happens or everyone dies its not an easy decission to make.

Once you find out their junkies getting high on the kids then you might have a bit more leverage, kill us all and no more nice feelings for you.

Giving them the kids now buys you time, currently you cant find any base ship or anything you can fight against apart from the single ambasidor even if they come back again in a year you've had another year to work on the problem of finding them and dealing with them.

[NecronLord]

The big problem is that the governments just dont know what they can or cant do. They could well have been bluffing about being able to kill everyone but you don't know so you can go along with them and hand over 10% of your children or you can call their bluff, then either nothing happens or everyone dies its not an easy decission to make.

Assuming you're not retarded enough to bury your fifty first century alien expert in concrete, you will get more information than otherwise, and in the end, most likely, the signal to exterminate them, and you will most likely get it much quicker and with less fuss than in Children of Earth.

[PREDATOR490]

1) Phone the Doctor using the number used in Journey's End or failing that find Martha Jones and get HER fucking phone regardless of wether she is on a honeymoon or not.

2) Get the Doctor to help, if you really want to push the 'moral' boundries. Put a gun to Martha / Sarah Jane / Donna's family etc. heads and threaten to kill them if he dosent help. Bonus points if Jack is conviced to do it, I would find it interesting to see Jack willing to sacrifice his own grandson but not the Doctor.

[Stark]

Doing that makes you the Doctor's enemy as well. A bit too complex for these writers.

[mr friendly guy]

You forgot UNIT is evil, dude.

Well I haven't watched most of Torchwood. Could you explain it.

[Stark]

It's not just TW (UNIT is clearly evil in S3 and S4) but ... uh... useless computer girl was locked in Space Gitmo by UNIT, who are ruthless and care not for rights.

I don't think they've been portrayed as noble defenders of Earth since S2.

[NecronLord]

2) Get the Doctor to help, if you really want to push the 'moral' boundries. Put a gun to Martha / Sarah Jane / Donna's family etc. heads and threaten to kill them if he dosent help. Bonus points if Jack is conviced to do it, I would find it interesting to see Jack willing to sacrifice his own grandson but not the Doctor.

Of course, it's not like he's vastly more powerful than you and has a tendancy to go borderline psychotic on his enemies. Wait... no, I don't think I want to fuck with the Time Lord Victorious. If he attempts to call my bluff and I kill one of his friends, what exactly stops him killing me as a child to ensure the country is led by someone else? Oh yes, his own niceness.

[NecronLord]

I don't think they've been portrayed as noble defenders of Earth since S2.

While stupid-evil UNIT is certainly still around, they were noble defenders of Earth in 'Planet of the Dead.' Or at least, depicted as generally good guys.

[PREDATOR490]

2) Get the Doctor to help, if you really want to push the 'moral' boundries. Put a gun to Martha / Sarah Jane / Donna's family etc. heads and threaten to kill them if he dosent help. Bonus points if Jack is conviced to do it, I would find it interesting to see Jack willing to sacrifice his own grandson but not the Doctor.

Of course, it's not like he's vastly more powerful than you and has a tendancy to go borderline psychotic on his enemies. Wait... no, I don't think I want to fuck with the Time Lord Victorious. If he attempts to call my bluff and I kill one of his friends, what exactly stops him killing me as a child to ensure the country is led by someone else? Oh yes, his own niceness.

The choice is:

A) Give into 456 and have 10% of the world's children killed / tortured with the potential for MORE if the aliens come back at an undertermined time

B) Resist and gamble you can survive

If your going to try B) and roll the dice might as well get the self proclaimed 'Defender' of Earth into the mix. Blackmailing would only be an option IF he refuses.

The only reason for the Doctor to refuse helping Earth is because it's a 'fixed point' in time. In which case, even if someone shoots every one of his friends he cant do shit. IF he CAN alter events then the whole 'fixed point' becomes a load of horseshit. One dosent even need to follow through on killing his friends due to the simple fact if 456 DO have the capability to wipe out all life on Earth. ALL of his companions on Earth die as well, especially since they are likely to be on the frontlines fighting against 456.

Thus the only ones pissing off the Doctor will be 456.

However if your looking for an 'ethical / moral' grey-area then personnally threatening them makes for a valid option.
Pissing the Doctor off might be a bad idea for personal well being but involking the Doctor's wrath in exchange for saving the world is a bargain. Especially when the Doctor's wrath can be anything from being deposed to spending eternity as a scarecrow.

Granted its a personal gamble on the Doctors 'mercy' but even if the Doctor DOES interfere for the sole purpose of going after me. Once he gets involved the chances of him helping against 456 increase due to his companions or his own morality compelling him to do so. This is exactly what happened in Planet of Mars or Fires of Pompeii.

10% of the worlds Children + The possibility of 456 coming back AGAIN
vs.
Threaten, bribe, blackmail or otherwise force the Doctor to help and risk his wrath
or
Hope 456 are bluffing and if they arent... hope they go gentle ?

[Crazedwraith]

He can alter 'fixed points of time' as Waters of Mars proved. Thus rendering the whole concept useless as well as stupid.

[Big Orange]

He didn't entirely change the fixed point in time, he went through a loophole to tinker with it slightly, and while there was no follow up, the Doctor had fallen out of his tree (Time Lord Victorious) and had crossed a line.

I can't comment on the bad satire of UNIT running a secret prison to detain spies without due process, I didn't see that particular TW episode, but if UNIT are so inept and "evil", why has NuWho Earth not choked on Sontaran nutrient gas? I've read a few Target books and UNIT came across as the well intentioned mooks they mostly are now, plus in one of the Pertwee stories where dinosaurs invaded modern London, UNIT had a traitorous officer in its ranks.

And as much as I liked "Children of Earth" and how truly wonderful Peter Capaldi was as the villainous civil servant Frobisher, the strange absence of Sarah Jane and the Doctor during the looming 456 catastrophe enabled by corrupt UK politicians shows that Russel T. Davies' "Children of Earth" was adapted from an old script intended for something completely different (something along the line of ITV's The Second Coming). Anyway they're supposed to have moved Torchwood into America now and that's likely for the best, but more importantly they should keep Chris Chibnal as far away from the next Torchwood season as possible; honestly Chibnal makes Voyager's Kenneth Biller look like JJAbrams.

[mr friendly guy]

The TL have broken their own rules when it suits them. So clearly its possible to do so including with this fixed point in time but it most likely isn't easy, but doable. Just like its possible for me to drive over the speed limit and break the law in an attempt to get to a meeting on time, but there are consequences for doing so and it may not necessarily be doable, ie I might crash before reaching the place. So it seems so with these "cannot cross own time line" or "cannot alter fixed point in time rule" there are consequences, so the Doctor and the TL only break them when they deem necessary in universe, ie in out universe it means when the plot dictates.