How fast is Tau railgun?

[Purple]

But those that are small and light enough for a human to use will tend to have inferior firepower to those that are not.
You could probably make a heavy bolter small enough to be fired by a squat. That does not mean said heavy bolter will do the same damage as that monster version mounted on an Astartes land raider.

Hence the balance of power would look something like this:
Lasgun -> Human Sized Bolter/Hellgun -> Pulse Rifle -> Space Marine Sized Bolter

[Simon_Jester]

Pound for pound, yes. Definitely not dollar for dollar. The entire point of the lasgun is that it can be crafted by a backwater woodsman with a template using locally available parts (or a hive-ganger with a box of scraps in a ferrocrete cavern) in addition to being stamped out en masse by a group of menials slaving away in some manufactorium. The lasgun is basically the Kalashnikov of the 40k-verse.

Possibly true. On the other hand:

-The Tau can afford to give every fighting man in their society a pulse rifle.
-The Tau must have something like the same kind of troops-per-world force density as the Imperium in order to defend themselves from Tyranids and Orks on even a limited scale.
-While the relative density of good-quality industrial infrastructure in Tau space is probably higher than in Imperium space (there are no Tau feral worlds), it isn't transcendently higher.

While I can believe that the Tau invest more dollars into their infantry rifles than the Imperium does, so to speak... they get a very considerable payback, one that makes me inclined to think that what they get for their money is honestly a better design.

Sure, the Imperium can make lasguns anywhere, but I'm betting that they wind up having to pay in extra man-hours and material wastage for the inferior quality of manufacture, or accept an inferior result (the lasgun may be the equivalent of the Kalashnikov, but the Kalashnikov has its problems). At which point while they invest fewer dollars directly, they're putting in more man-hours per weapon and getting a lesser weapon than the generic munitorium-issue lasgun, let alone a Tau pulse rifle.

So I suspect the dollar-for-dollar comparison comes out less unfavorably to the Tau than we might think...

[Lancer]

Astartes bolt weapons are a much larger scale than bolt weapons intended for unaugmented use. The fact that humans use bolt pistols of a kind does not mean that an Astartes side weapon is such a scale that a regular human would be able to reliably fire it as a pistol weapon. It'd be used much more like a rifle. For instance, here is a mock up (by an artist hired by GW) done for the Ultramarines movie:

Again, that is a bolt pistol, not a bolter.

Again, that's a Space Marine Bolt pistol, specifically designed for a much larger person to use.

The fact that both Bolters and Bolt Pistols exist in normal human scales shows that Bolt weapons are not too heavy for a human to use. As Painrack was pointing out, only the Heavy Bolter is too big for a normal human to use.

That wasn't the original claim made. The original claim (submitted by Simon on pg 3, not Painrack) was that Tau pulse rifles are unequivocally superior to even Astartes boltguns.

[Lancer]

Pound for pound, yes. Definitely not dollar for dollar. The entire point of the lasgun is that it can be crafted by a backwater woodsman with a template using locally available parts (or a hive-ganger with a box of scraps in a ferrocrete cavern) in addition to being stamped out en masse by a group of menials slaving away in some manufactorium. The lasgun is basically the Kalashnikov of the 40k-verse.

Possibly true. On the other hand:

-The Tau can afford to give every fighting man in their society a pulse rifle.
-The Tau must have something like the same kind of troops-per-world force density as the Imperium in order to defend themselves from Tyranids and Orks on even a limited scale.
-While the relative density of good-quality industrial infrastructure in Tau space is probably higher than in Imperium space (there are no Tau feral worlds), it isn't transcendently higher.

While I can believe that the Tau invest more dollars into their infantry rifles than the Imperium does, so to speak... they get a very considerable payback, one that makes me inclined to think that what they get for their money is honestly a better design.

Sure, the Imperium can make lasguns anywhere, but I'm betting that they wind up having to pay in extra man-hours and material wastage for the inferior quality of manufacture, or accept an inferior result (the lasgun may be the equivalent of the Kalashnikov, but the Kalashnikov has its problems). At which point while they invest fewer dollars directly, they're putting in more man-hours per weapon and getting a lesser weapon than the generic munitorium-issue lasgun, let alone a Tau pulse rifle.

So I suspect the dollar-for-dollar comparison comes out less unfavorably to the Tau than we might think...

The Tau don't maintain anywhere near the same level of militarization as the IoM. They're far out on the rimward section of the Ultimae Segmentum, far from the major concentrations of Imperial power (Terra and Mars, the Cadian Gate, Armageddeon, even the Segmentum headquarters of Kar Duniash). Furthermore, the primary concentrations of power near the Tau (both the Realm of Ultramar as well as Craftworld Iyanden) happen to be farther rimward. In fact, they served as a buffer between the Tau and any threats from beyond the eastern fringe, most notably hive fleets Behemoth and Kraken.

The Tau expansion has reflected this, they attack the most lightly defended worlds and basically hope that the Imperium decides its not worth the effort of taking back. When faced with the possibility of a full scale Imperial counterattack, they withdraw because they can't afford a direct confrontation. Even if they don't lose, they'd take too many casualties to remain a viable force.

[SAMAS]

Astartes bolt weapons are a much larger scale than bolt weapons intended for unaugmented use. The fact that humans use bolt pistols of a kind does not mean that an Astartes side weapon is such a scale that a regular human would be able to reliably fire it as a pistol weapon. It'd be used much more like a rifle. For instance, here is a mock up (by an artist hired by GW) done for the Ultramarines movie:

Again, that is a bolt pistol, not a bolter.

Again, that's a Space Marine Bolt pistol, specifically designed for a much larger person to use.

The fact that both Bolters and Bolt Pistols exist in normal human scales shows that Bolt weapons are not too heavy for a human to use. As Painrack was pointing out, only the Heavy Bolter is too big for a normal human to use.

That wasn't the original claim made. The original claim (submitted by Simon on pg 3, not Painrack) was that Tau pulse rifles are unequivocally superior to even Astartes boltguns.

By the initial information given by the game's rules, they are. He also said, and I...

Pulse rifles are more impressive than Space Marine bolters. The Space Marines should be the ultimate example of "do not engage in wars of attrition," I'd think. Also, they routinely use weapons that no normal human or Tau could carry; the lightest Guard weapon that can match or exceed pulse rifle performance is a heavy bolter that's treated as a squad support weapon even for the Marines.

(Incedentally, he's wrong on that point. The lightest is actually the Plasma Gun. Less range, but same weight class and similar approximate RoF, and the power far outstrips it. The Heavy Bolter is arguably the lightest gun that's superior on all counts (except portability)).

But I wonder if the arguing is getting mixed up at this point...

[Darth Hoth]

But those that are small and light enough for a human to use will tend to have inferior firepower to those that are not.
You could probably make a heavy bolter small enough to be fired by a squat. That does not mean said heavy bolter will do the same damage as that monster version mounted on an Astartes land raider.

Hence the balance of power would look something like this:
Lasgun -> Human Sized Bolter/Hellgun -> Pulse Rifle -> Space Marine Sized Bolter

Is the RPG accepted as canon? The basic Deathwatch rulebook says the following:

The Tau utilise technology at every level of warfare - even the lowest ranked Fire Warrior is supplied with advanced systems that in some cases approach the level of those carried by Space Marines and far outclass anything issued to an Imperial Guardsman. Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability.

[Vendetta]

It's like they took the body of a early 20th century machinegun, made the muzzle huge (for some reason), put a magazine on it that must hold a whole three bullets and decided 'this is what a pistol looks like'. This iron sights being more than a centimeter wide is just absurd, but it turns out that trying to justify 80s art as 'for serious' is daft.

My semi-joking point is actually quite serious. Much of the design work for GW products is subject to one key consideration: What can we sculpt onto a 28mm pewter or plastic cast miniature (especially the former, it's harder to do detail on a metal miniature but they're cheaper to make).

And what that generally means is big chunky gunz, hueg shoulders etc, because things like that are easy to see when you're looking at the mini on a tabletop, the guns stand out, the models look characterful, etc.

When you scale that up directly to "lifesize" it looks silly. (doesn't stop people doing it).

[Stark]

Oh of course; that's why the detailing is so huge and the weapons so deformed. Its just funny to watch people try to make out that it makes sense.

I remember ages ago that someone made even lasguns look retarded on normal people. This is sort-of visible even in movies though.

[Lord Relvenous]

Again, that's a Space Marine Bolt pistol, specifically designed for a much larger person to use.

The fact that both Bolters and Bolt Pistols exist in normal human scales shows that Bolt weapons are not too heavy for a human to use. As Painrack was pointing out, only the Heavy Bolter is too big for a normal human to use.

Wow. Thanks for stating the fucking obvious there, captain. Of course that's a Space Marine pistol, that's what I talking about. The conversation never was about if generic bolters are too heavy for humans. Let me do a rundown for you:

Pulse rifles are more impressive than Space Marine bolters.

For what it's worth, if we're going into stats, in the Deathwatch RPG, they're of considerably inferior strength (space marine bolters are 2d10+5 and get to re-roll the 2d10 if they like, pulse rifles are 2d10+2), and there's a longer ranged version of a bolter to boot, though the Tau one is actually more accurate at long range. The pulse rifle is however, longer range than most bolters.

Nor my point that a Tau Fire Warrior routinely carries an infantry rifle that, on tabletop, outguns a Space Marine bolter normally described as "too heavy for a normal human to lift."

No, a Soul Drinker [Space Marine] boltpistol is described as being big and heavy enough that it takes both hands for a normal human to lift and fire it.

For the record, SM weapons aren't too heavy for an unaugmented human to lift, merely that ordinary humans cannot safely weild them. Unaugmented humans (chapter retainers) lift and carry them all the time.

Then my comment and some more about Space Marine bolt weapon size.

So thanks for that complete strawman. No one said bolt weapons, flat out, are too heavy for humans to lift.

[SAMAS]

I said Use. Too heavy to use. Not even a Heavy Bolter is too heavy to lift and carry (how else would the Heavy Weapons Teams lug them about?)

And, you have a quote right in your post of someone saying "lift". Here it is again if ya missed it:

Nor my point that a Tau Fire Warrior routinely carries an infantry rifle that, on tabletop, outguns a Space Marine bolter normally described as "too heavy for a normal human to lift."

[Lord Relvenous]

I said Use. Too heavy to use. Not even a Heavy Bolter is too heavy to lift and carry (how else would the Heavy Weapons Teams lug them about?)

Again, Imperial Guard use different versions of bolt weapons. Example, a human sized bolter weighs 7 kgs (empty). An Astartes Bolter (Godwyn patter) weighs 18 kgs (empty). A Browning Automatic Rifle weighs 7.5-9.0 kgs, depending on model. A M60 weighs 10.5 kgs. No idea whether those are loaded or empty weights; I suspect empty. Either way, the basic bolter weighs 1.5-2 times the weight of 2 SAWs used in the U.S. military. That bolter could be lifted, but I sincerely doubt it could be used for any amount of time, or with any type of accuracy. In the strict sense of "use" it is possible, i.e. could a regular human lift it and fire it. However, if we assume "use" to mean use with any sort of effectiveness by your stock human, I'd say no.

As for the heavy bolter, the weight difference is just as pronounced. A human-scale heavy bolter is 40 kgs. Definitely manageable by a heavy weapons team. An Astartes pattern heavy bolter weighs 68 kgs (yet again, empty). That's definitely a struggle to manage, and I doubt any sane commander would outfit men who are supposed to move along with an advance to provide covering fire with a weapon that heavy. However, I understand that it would be possible to do this, so the heavy bolter is a "maybe" case for me.

And, you have a quote right in your post of someone saying "lift". Here it is again if ya missed it:

Nor my point that a Tau Fire Warrior routinely carries an infantry rifle that, on tabletop, outguns a Space Marine bolter normally described as "too heavy for a normal human to lift."

I concede that I misread. However, your post wasn't arguing about lifting a bolter either. You stated that a normal human could use a bolt weapon (of Space Marine scale, seeing as how that's the entirety of the discussion). The regular bolter is of a weight that it could be lifted and fired, but most normal humans would struggle to lug 18 kgs of weight around in their hands and try to fire it effectively.

[Imperial Overlord]

Is the RPG accepted as canon? The basic Deathwatch rulebook says the following:

The Tau utilise technology at every level of warfare - even the lowest ranked Fire Warrior is supplied with advanced systems that in some cases approach the level of those carried by Space Marines and far outclass anything issued to an Imperial Guardsman. Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability.

It's a little complicated. The FFG roleplaying games are checked by GW and are canon (that's why the settings are in previously untouched regions of the galaxy, so they can do their own thing without bumping into and messing up any of GW's canon), but they have Andy Hoare writing for them and the quality of Andy's work, particularly regarding the Tau and anything to do with space battles, has already been discussed.

[Lord Relvenous]

Ghetto edit: The weight figures are pulled from the Dark Heresy and Deathwatch RPG books.

Thinking on the heavy bolter, a human scale one can only be used by such extraodinary individuals like Sergeant Harker without a second carrier or a tripod. Because we are talking about a single human using the Space Marine bolter weapons, it disqualifies the Astartes heavy bolter, as like I mentioned before, even a 2 man team would have problems. I guess that leaves us with the pistol being used as essentially a rifle, the bolter being something that would normally be tripod mounted, and the heavy bolter being a two man weapon at least.

[Ryan Thunder]

It's a little complicated. The FFG roleplaying games are checked by GW and are canon (that's why the settings are in previously untouched regions of the galaxy, so they can do their own thing without bumping into and messing up any of GW's canon), but they have Andy Hoare writing for them and the quality of Andy's work, particularly regarding the Tau and anything to do with space battles, has already been discussed.

So you don't like what he writes about Tau, therefore you get to just ignore anything he has to say about them?

[Lancer]

It's a little complicated. The FFG roleplaying games are checked by GW and are canon (that's why the settings are in previously untouched regions of the galaxy, so they can do their own thing without bumping into and messing up any of GW's canon), but they have Andy Hoare writing for them and the quality of Andy's work, particularly regarding the Tau and anything to do with space battles, has already been discussed.

So you don't like what he writes about Tau, therefore you get to just ignore anything he has to say about them?

It's inconsistent with other sources, and thus has to be reconciled somehow.

[Ryan Thunder]

It's inconsistent with other sources, and thus has to be reconciled somehow.

Uh huh.

You realize that it's actually far more plausible than other sources that depict them as a force with only minor advantages (if any) over the Imperial Guard, right?

I mean did we forget that they're a tiny little speck off in the corner of the galaxy that has to fight off Orks and the Imperial Guard on a regular basis?

If their equipment was actually merely comparable with Imperial Guard hardware, the Damocles crusade would've annihilated them. It didn't. They had to fight a force drawn from multiple chapters of Space Marines, and crusade-strength Imperial Guard forces. They supposedly can't field the hilarious numbers of troops you'd need to simply drown the Marines in bodies and still fight off an Imperial Guard force that outnumbers them.

[Ryan Thunder]

Guh, missed the edit window. Let me rephrase this more clearly.

If we throw out Andy Hoare's stuff, we can conclude the following about the Tau;
- They aren't numerous => They're vastly outnumbered.
- They don't have superior armour.
- They don't have superior firepower.
- They have superior mobility at a certain level.
- They merely have the appearance of superior technology.

Can somebody explain to me how they're supposed to survive the attentions of the Imperial Guard, the Orks, and (soon) the Tyranids?

[Purple]

If we throw out Andy Hoare's stuff, we can conclude the following about the Tau;

- They aren't numerous => They're vastly outnumbered.

Completely correct.

- They don't have superior armour.

Depends on who they are fighting. Their infantry armor is packed with electronics and is therefore superior to standard guardsmen in both protection and systems. About stormtrooper level, maybe more or less but somwhere in that area.

- They don't have superior firepower.

Again, depends on who they are fighting. Their weapons are superior to most things the Imperial Guard use for the comparable purpose. The pulse rifles are better than lasguns and the railguns mounted on their tanks are better than standard RL rounds against other tanks.

They lack heavy artillery and their heavy bombers are titan equivalents.

Their infantry is NOT superior to Space Marines, but than again you are not supposed to compare the two. Space Marines are not the average line infantry of the IOM. Depending on the sources there might be as little as a few hundred million of them across imperial space.

Space Marines should be compared to other Elite Heavy Troops or in other words Tau Battlesuits.

- They have superior mobility at a certain level.

Correct there.

- They merely have the appearance of superior technology.

Depends on the enemy and the area.
It is generally accepted that they have superior infantry support in terms of electronics on the personal level and that they have superior AI technology in terms of combat drones. Or rather, they have inferior tech in terms of AI but the IOM does not use theirs out of superstition so they get de facto better small AI.
Large scale AI (machine spirits) are on the side of the IOM thou.

Can somebody explain to me how they're supposed to survive the attentions of the Imperial Guard, the Orks, and (soon) the Tyranids?

IOM - The one time they did win was because the IOM had to divert to fight the Nids.
Orks - They are not interesting enough to become a large scale target. Especially compared to the IOM and other Orks.
Nids - They have no chance. Even the IOM barely has a chance against the nids. But they present only a small fraction of bio mass so they probably won't be a prime target for a large fleet.

[Lancer]

Guh, missed the edit window. Let me rephrase this more clearly.

If we throw out Andy Hoare's stuff, we can conclude the following about the Tau;
- They aren't numerous => They're vastly outnumbered.
- They don't have superior armour.
- They don't have superior firepower.
- They have superior mobility at a certain level.
- They merely have the appearance of superior technology.

Can somebody explain to me how they're supposed to survive the attentions of the Imperial Guard, the Orks, and (soon) the Tyranids?

They're in a sparsely populated region of the Ultima Segmentum with very little of significance core-ward. Your example of the Damocles Gulf crusade was by no means a full scale deployment of Imperial force, and even those assets were withdrawn to shore up Imperial defenses to the galactic east, where the primary local concentration of Imperial power (including the Realm of Ultramar) acts as a buffer between the Tau and threats from the eastern fringe (like the aforementioned Orks and Nids).

The Tau enjoy a technological edge over the average Imperial Guard unit for sure, but it's not enough of an edge that they wouldn't be overwhelmed by the numerical advantage the Guard would enjoy in a full-scale deployment of Imperial forces, and they certainly don't enjoy a technological advantage over the Imperium as a whole, especially when taking into account other Imperial forces like the Astartes and AdMech.

As I said earlier, that's most likely why the Tau employ the world-grabbing tactics that they do. If the Imperium decides to retake a world, they can afford to drown the Tau in the bodies of Guardsmen alone. The Tau, on the other hand, can't afford the same commitment of force, so they withdraw back to their garrison worlds and wait for the Imperium to lose interest.

[Srelex]

It's inconsistent with other sources, and thus has to be reconciled somehow.

Lots of things are inconsistent with other sources in 40k, even in recent works, and which ones take precedence often just boils down to preference.

[Lancer]

It's inconsistent with other sources, and thus has to be reconciled somehow.

Lots of things are inconsistent with other sources in 40k, even in recent works, and which ones take precedence often just boils down to preference.

Or, you can examine those sources and see which set is the most internally consistent.

[NecronLord]

Guh, missed the edit window. Let me rephrase this more clearly.

If we throw out Andy Hoare's stuff, we can conclude the following about the Tau;
- They aren't numerous => They're vastly outnumbered.
- They don't have superior armour.
- They don't have superior firepower.

Practically speaking, they do, they have top-grade (well, decent) firepower, their armour is passable in the physical protection sense, and superb in the tank sense.

- They have superior mobility at a certain level.
- They merely have the appearance of superior technology.

No, they definately have superior technology to most races, and effectively to the Imperium, they just have big deficiencies compared to the high end of the IoM's inherited Dark Age stuff (true warp drives and navigators, teleporters, various shiny shiny weapons).

[Black Admiral]

The Damocles Gulf Crusade was certainly not a particularly big force.

Its order of battle comes to, roughly;
12 x capital ships, known to include -
1 x Retribution-class battleship (HDMS Blade of Woe)
1 x Overlord-class battle cruiser (HDMS Niobe)
2 x Lunar-class cruiser (HDMS Centaur & HDMS Honour of Damlass)
1 x Gothic-class cruiser (HDMS Lord Cedalion)

1 x Astartes Strike Cruiser (Fist of Light, Iron Hands allegiance)
At least 7 x Astartes escorts (including Nomad, White Scars allegiance)
Unknown number of light cruisers, including HDMS Regent Lakshimbai (Dauntless-class)
At least 16 escort-class vessels (14 destroyed over Pra'yen, with 2 more damaged beyond practicable repair)

And for ground forces -
5 x provisional companies of Astartes drawn from 12 Chapters (including contingents from the Iron Hands, Scythes of the Emperor, Ultramarines and White Scars)
19 x Guard regiments (including 17th Brimlock Dragoons, 9th Brimlock Fusiliers & the Rakarshan Rifles' ??th Regiment)
At least 1 x Stormtrooper Company (the 4th)
A detachment of Titans from the Legio Thanataris

All in all, not exactly the Sabbat Worlds Crusade.

[Darth Hoth]

It's inconsistent with other sources, and thus has to be reconciled somehow.

I am by no means as hardcore a Warhammer enthusiast as most of the other people currently in the discussion, but why? Just looking at Connor's bit on Kill Team, I note a bit where a pulse rifle, when fired into an armoured Tau warrior, almost cuts him in two. Is this less than what bolters usually do? In the previous book in the same series, bolter shells blow "fist-sized holes" in unarmoured people.

The Tau might be lame, but their infantry tech looks quite nice to me.

[NecronLord]

It's inconsistent with other sources, and thus has to be reconciled somehow.

I am by no means as hardcore a Warhammer enthusiast as most of the other people currently in the discussion, but why? Just looking at Connor's bit on Kill Team, I note a bit where a pulse rifle, when fired into an armoured Tau warrior, almost cuts him in two. Is this less than what bolters usually do? In the previous book in the same series, bolter shells blow "fist-sized holes" in unarmoured people.

The Tau might be lame, but their infantry tech looks quite nice to me.

Actually, they're about the same. There's various descriptions of both blasting chests open and things. The pulse rifle is better over a long range but probably a bitch in indoor combat (the pulse carbine exists for a reason, I imagine).