Galactic Empire vs Orions Arm Sephirotic Civilisations

[Uncluttered]

How bout we ignore or recalibrate asedra and Serafina and move the debate forward?
I'm sick of the ranting noise, and walls of unedited, nearly unreadable thoughtless text.
If I read "LOL" "PWN" or any references to penis size one more time........

I'll be annoyed, because there is not much I can do over a BBS....

lets change the tone before someone locks the thread.
------------
So. Moving on.....

Can we at least agree, that someone (i.e. Nemoidians, correlians) within SW will attempt to SELL hyperdrive infrastructure to OA?
We all know imperial governance is saturated with moles and informants from everywhere. Someone is going to tell the huts, or the corporate sector,or the black sun, or the telletubbies.

A godlike intellect is going to think about the cost benefit of simply purchasing the technology vs reverse engineering it from scratch.

Can we agree, that OA has something worth trading to said vendor?
-advanced medical technology
-immortality
-computer technology
-megastructures
-wormhole technology
-really cool drugs
-transapient super whores
-snew

As I've said before, give SW a few months of FTL dominance (OA periphery time) before the enterprising Nemoidians show up.
OA is a very populated neighborhood. The imperial fleets will have a challenge destroying planets and stations faster than OA can build them. They will have to commit significant forces and industry just to maintain.

Also keep in mind, that OA is based on "The Culture" in many ways. Think about the culture/Iridian war. This scenario has many similarities.

Almost every citizen is going to have offsite backups. The AI will wince, but be OK with a little slaughter along the periphery, while studying and the SW galactic empire.

Folks, this will be a war of attrition.

[Uncluttered]

If the Adults WERE to move the debate forward.....
----------------------------------
Lets assume war progresses.

OA does not have FTL, but they DO have wormholes.

Problem!

In most theories SW FTL ignores relativity.
Is FTL such a big advantage to the attackers as we think?
Yes and no. It depends on where (and when), you are going.

Why is this a problem?

If you enter OA at the periphery, and work your way through the wormhole network, you will go back in time. VERY back in time. The bulk of terregen civilization is in a sphere 10000LY in diameter more or less.
Keep in mind parts of the OA wormhole network are ancient xeno relics, millions of years old.

A message sent to Earth through the wormhole network from the periphery, will actually be able to arrive there thousands of years before a hyperdrive could.

Say what you will, but I think that's enough time for anyone to roll out the red carpet.

[Imperial528]

Can we at least agree, that someone (i.e. Nemoidians, correlians) within SW will attempt to SELL hyperdrive infrastructure to OA?
We all know imperial governance is saturated with moles and informants from everywhere. Someone is going to tell the huts, or the corporate sector,or the black sun, or the telletubbies.

After there is a sort of ceasefire or in the event of an Imperial victory? I'm sure they would. However, during the war it would likely be more profitable to sell to the Empire directly, since they know the Empire, and there isn't the risk that an ISD shows up to ruin their homeworlds.

As I've said before, give SW a few months of FTL dominance (OA periphery time) before the enterprising Nemoidians show up.
OA is a very populated neighborhood. The imperial fleets will have a challenge destroying planets and stations faster than OA can build them. They will have to commit significant forces and industry just to maintain.

Unless OA magically gets hyperdrive during even a few months of Imperial FTL dominance, they won't be able to get rebuilding fleets to destroyed systems in time, save for those that happen to be near wormholes.[/quote]

[Stark]

Ignoring you've never been able to prove any of your claims = adult!

Its cute that 'they're like the culture' and 'I just worked out that hyperdrive necessarily includes temporal manipulation' can be used as evidence AND typed in such a pretentious manner. But then, talking shit and loving yourself for it is what OA is all about!

[asedra]

How bout we ignore or recalibrate asedra and Serafina and move the debate forward?
I'm sick of the ranting noise, and walls of unedited, nearly unreadable thoughtless text.
If I read "LOL" "PWN" or any references to penis size one more time........

I'll be annoyed, because there is not much I can do over a BBS....

lets change the tone before someone locks the thread.
------------
So. Moving on.....

Can we at least agree, that someone (i.e. Nemoidians, correlians) within SW will attempt to SELL hyperdrive infrastructure to OA?
We all know imperial governance is saturated with moles and informants from everywhere. Someone is going to tell the huts, or the corporate sector,or the black sun, or the telletubbies.

A godlike intellect is going to think about the cost benefit of simply purchasing the technology vs reverse engineering it from scratch.

Can we agree, that OA has something worth trading to said vendor?
-advanced medical technology
-immortality
-computer technology
-megastructures
-wormhole technology
-really cool drugs
-transapient super whores
-snew

As I've said before, give SW a few months of FTL dominance (OA periphery time) before the enterprising Nemoidians show up.
OA is a very populated neighborhood. The imperial fleets will have a challenge destroying planets and stations faster than OA can build them. They will have to commit significant forces and industry just to maintain.

Also keep in mind, that OA is based on "The Culture" in many ways. Think about the culture/Iridian war. This scenario has many similarities.

Almost every citizen is going to have offsite backups. The AI will wince, but be OK with a little slaughter along the periphery, while studying and the SW galactic empire.

Folks, this will be a war of attrition.

-Yeah man, all of the above! Especially the transapient whores, those bitchs (dudes?) would be mad good in the sack! Kinda depends on what sort of organs you use for reproduction, though: You wouldn't believe what changes the 3rd sexual revolution brought about in the OA universe
-My scenario is, a seraiph (representing the sephirotic meta empire) meets up with a trade federation core ship to negotiate a trade for the hyper drive. Assuming the transaction goes through as planned (the archailects get their hyperdrive, the nemoidians get their super sluts), and assuming they have sufficient time to implement it among say, 1/4 of their ships, what happens next, Uncluttered? What plan of action does the mean old imperials take?

[Stark]

Oh god they're writing fanfic right now. Ugh.

I think you're being massively childish (again) regarding technology. Its more likely some enterprising soul would assume they had the appropriate infrastructure, and the plans to a late-model hyperdrive would thus be useless without it. But I guess we'll just say OMGZORS INTELLECTZ and handwave that again.

[asedra]

-What I mean is, who takes the initiative? Who strikes the first blow? I would say, that since the bulk of the sephirotic effort is going towards the equipment of the hyperdrive amongst their forces, they will be unable to mount any offensives.
-Does the GE know that their true enemy is the archailects, and not the flesh and blood humans? How many habitats and such will they destroy before they catch themselves? I wonder how motivated the common people (under the rule of the toposophics) would be to fight against the GE. I know that they envision the sephirotic sphere as a paradise, but most havn't seen true war in ages. Does anyone know whether the artifints even employ humans in their armies? From what I have seen, they mostly maunever the enemy into economical/social disadvantage and whither them away in that manner. In more extreme circumstances, they go for the enemies throat with WMDs, and get the job done quick and dirty. War is traditionally frowned upon. I think, against an enemy as powerful as the GE, that they would have to re-examine this attitude.

[Uncluttered]

Ignoring you've never been able to prove any of your claims = adult!

Well stark, I'm pretty sure you can't claim IP on that.

Its cute that 'they're like the culture' and 'I just worked out that hyperdrive necessarily includes temporal manipulation'

Nice straw man stark. You really need to change your MO.
If you are going to quote me, then

Quote Me

Instead of making up shit.

'I just worked out that hyperdrive necessarily includes temporal manipulation'

For one stark, there are a good many arguments to support that statement you claim a fictional version of me made.

But stark. I claimed that WORMHOLES allow travel back (and forward, and back) in time.

....can be used as evidence AND typed in such a pretentious manner.

Once again stark. You are the one with the pretentious attitude. You seem to think the shit you spew is solid gold.
You are a god among men in your own mind.

But then, talking shit and loving yourself for it is what OA is all about!

It's about "Talking shit"? OA, is a fiction project. It's not a VS project. A VS project is a project made for talking shit. That is where you are now.

Do you drink while you write, or before?

[Stark]

Sorry, I thought you said that OA was invincible by being in the past. My mistake. You know how time travel works, right?

Hilariously, I haven't actually made any claims. You have; and you have never presented any evidence beyond OMG SO SMRTZ. The best part is that 80% of your posts are nothing but posturing from a fatty virgin moron, which is ALWAYS worth reading.

[Stark]

-What I mean is, who takes the initiative? Who strikes the first blow? I would say, that since the bulk of the sephirotic effort is going towards the equipment of the hyperdrive amongst their forces, they will be unable to mount any offensives.
-Does the GE know that their true enemy is the archailects, and not the flesh and blood humans? How many habitats and such will they destroy before they catch themselves? I wonder how motivated the common people (under the rule of the toposophics) would be to fight against the GE. I know that they envision the sephirotic sphere as a paradise, but most havn't seen true war in ages. Does anyone know whether the artifints even employ humans in their armies? From what I have seen, they mostly maunever the enemy into economical/social disadvantage and whither them away in that manner. In more extreme circumstances, they go for the enemies throat with WMDs, and get the job done quick and dirty. War is traditionally frowned upon. I think, against an enemy as powerful as the GE, that they would have to re-examine this attitude.

To be honest, this approach is WAY more interesting than a pew pew vs. The AI should certainly be smart enough to hide their nature during contact, and given access to the GE galactic community, it'll be a much more interesting conflict than OMG BAM I SHOT A STAR AT U WITH MY IQ 3000000.

This is the universe where R2D2 can break the Death Star's security, and learning languages, architectures and the like are the sort of thing that a super-intelligent AI could do ludicrously fast. If they steal a move from the Cybermen and sell their technology in consumer goods, they'd possibly be able to get massive penetration without conflict.

[Uncluttered]

Oh god they're writing fanfic right now. Ugh.

The only person writing a fiction stark, is you. Stop misquoting, fakeqoating, and taking what I write completely out of context. It's called lying.

I think you're being massively childish (again) regarding technology. Its more likely some enterprising soul would assume they had the appropriate infrastructure, and the plans to a late-model hyperdrive would thus be useless without it. But I guess we'll just say OMGZORS INTELLECTZ and handwave that again.

Let the record show I wrote:

Can we at least agree, that someone (i.e. Nemoidians, correlians) within SW will attempt to SELL hyperdrive infrastructure to OA?

Once again, you fail at reading comprehension.

As I side note: I believe that if humans on two planets in SW can reverse engineer hyperdrive in a few hundred years, an entire interstellar civilization with an equally impressive tech base should be able to in a much shorter time period.

I only suggest OA purchase the hyperdrive infrastructure to move the debate forward.

Stop with your canned responses.

[Stark]

But I though the transapients would be able to reverse engineer hyperdrive really easily? I guess you conceded that silently somewhere.

[Uncluttered]

Sorry, I thought you said that OA was invincible by being in the past. My mistake. You know how time travel works, right?

Do you know how wormholes "work" stark? I bet there are a hundred people on this board who would be happy to teach you.

I'm not one of them. I expect a person to know what they are talking about before they comment.

Hilariously, I haven't actually made any claims. You have; and you have never presented any evidence beyond OMG SO SMRTZ. The best part is that 80% of your posts are nothing but posturing from a fatty virgin moron, which is ALWAYS worth reading.

Well stark. I'm sure that paragraph is going right on your mensa application. let me know how it goes.

[Batman]

'Hyperdrive infrastructure' meaning what, exactly? The ability to build hyperdrives with a Wars tech base and access to Wars materials? Fat load of good that'll do them.
I can sell 'integrated circuit' infrastructure to Victorian England all I want, they won't be producing CPUs anytime soon because they have neither the tech base nor the materials nor the knowledge to make use of that infrastructure (and because they're no longer around of course but I think you get the idea).

[Uncluttered]

But I though the transapients would be able to reverse engineer hyperdrive really easily? I guess you conceded that silently somewhere.

Down boy!
Stark, I think you actually live for the words "I concede". I bet you run right upstairs into the daylight to tell your mom all about it.
No. I don't concede your argument. I just want you idiots to move on to something else. Seriously, the canned responses are pathetic.
Yours are probably the worst, but Serafina is a close match. Also I wish asedra would shut up and go away.

[Uncluttered]

'Hyperdrive infrastructure' meaning what, exactly? The ability to build hyperdrives with a Wars tech base and access to Wars materials? Fat load of good that'll do them.
I can sell 'integrated circuit' infrastructure to Victorian England all I want, they won't be producing CPUs anytime soon because they have neither the tech base nor the materials nor the knowledge to make use of that infrastructure.

It's a nice effort and I appreciate the sincerity.

However, that's a false analogy.
It's more like U.S.A. VS Soviet Russia. The technology is at least equal or better in most areas.

[asedra]

-What I mean is, who takes the initiative? Who strikes the first blow? I would say, that since the bulk of the sephirotic effort is going towards the equipment of the hyperdrive amongst their forces, they will be unable to mount any offensives.
-Does the GE know that their true enemy is the archailects, and not the flesh and blood humans? How many habitats and such will they destroy before they catch themselves? I wonder how motivated the common people (under the rule of the toposophics) would be to fight against the GE. I know that they envision the sephirotic sphere as a paradise, but most havn't seen true war in ages. Does anyone know whether the artifints even employ humans in their armies? From what I have seen, they mostly maunever the enemy into economical/social disadvantage and whither them away in that manner. In more extreme circumstances, they go for the enemies throat with WMDs, and get the job done quick and dirty. War is traditionally frowned upon. I think, against an enemy as powerful as the GE, that they would have to re-examine this attitude.

To be honest, this approach is WAY more interesting than a pew pew vs. The AI should certainly be smart enough to hide their nature during contact, and given access to the GE galactic community, it'll be a much more interesting conflict than OMG BAM I SHOT A STAR AT U WITH MY IQ 3000000.

This is the universe where R2D2 can break the Death Star's security, and learning languages, architectures and the like are the sort of thing that a super-intelligent AI could do ludicrously fast. If they steal a move from the Cybermen and sell their technology in consumer goods, they'd possibly be able to get massive penetration without conflict.

-I agree. The archailects are not the type of entity's who will meaninglessly posture and/or fight an unwinnable battle, thus infuriating a much more powerfull enemy who can massively retaliate. Although they are not exactly sympathetic creatures, they are not going to lead the 100 trillion people under their guidance to their deaths, either. I believe they would attempt a merger of the two societys. That way, they would be able to get a hook into the GE economy and stock market, and hoard a lot of power. This advantage would presumably last until the GE upgrades some of their people to transapient status, someone able to pose a credible intellectual threat to the archailects. However, I wonder how heavy the proliferation of S> technology will be after the merger? Can dissident groups like the rebels get their hands on them? Will the empire be able to control the people it upgrades to S> status? Will the commanders and leaders be able to resist the manipulation of toposophic minds?
-I do not, however, think there is any way the empire could upgrade any of its people past S2 (or second sigularity equivilant) status, unless they are willing to pour in heavy resources (with high risks) into such a project. Its strange that OA can do far more damage by being assimilated into the empire than they would if they stood and fought. But there it is. The empire is suddenly swamped with a lot more threats than it had before the merger. This would be like the fucking cold war on steroids... Imagine the spy wars going on. There would be an explosion of activity on both the OA side, and the SW side. It would be an interesting time to be alive, to say the least.

[Batman]

'Hyperdrive infrastructure' meaning what, exactly? The ability to build hyperdrives with a Wars tech base and access to Wars materials? Fat load of good that'll do them.
I can sell 'integrated circuit' infrastructure to Victorian England all I want, they won't be producing CPUs anytime soon because they have neither the tech base nor the materials nor the knowledge to make use of that infrastructure.

It's a nice effort and I appreciate the sincerity.
However, that's a false analogy.
It's more like U.S.A. VS Soviet Russia. The technology is at least equal or better in most areas.

As evidenced by-you saying so. Wars has 7 figure c FTL which is already a massive advantage in an area where OA apparently hasn't even begun to make any inroads at all (as far as I could glean from this thread anyway), Wars has massively superior power generation technology, massively superior firepower (at least as presented in this thread, OA high end firepower relies on technobabble) and the FTL advantage alone guarantees victory. Wars forces can go anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of hours and there's jack all OA can do about that.
Even if OA got step by step every detail included complete manuals to go from their tech base to building hyperdrives there's no way they can do so in time to matter, and that's presupposing someone on the Wars side actually can give them that information in the first place.

[Uncluttered]

That's way beyond any industrial feat of Star Wars that I know of, although they're vague on how long this takes.

The other issue (regarding how long it takes) is, when do you declare a megastructure complete?

The major OA powers would have internal FTL communication and travel via wormholes. OA's main disadvantage is that its FTL method is less flexible, cannot be used offensively, and is reliant on massive infrastructure thus making it inherently more vulnerable. Well, that and Wars technology has a lot more brute force power.

There is the whole time travel issue. This also isn't the "usual" fictional time travel. The traveler (ISDs at FTL) is staying in their time, while the universe around them moves in time. It's all relative

[Stark]

Down boy!
Stark, I think you actually live for the words "I concede". I bet you run right upstairs into the daylight to tell your mom all about it.
No. I don't concede your argument. I just want you idiots to move on to something else. Seriously, the canned responses are pathetic.
Yours are probably the worst, but Serafina is a close match. Also I wish asedra would shut up and go away.

Oh man, give me more internet psychology! I love it when you deflect any and all requests for evidence with personal attacks.

If the 'canned responses' are so 'pathetic' you should have a pretty easy time proving them wrong, right? So where are they? Oh right, I forgot you're too busy baldly claiming things with no evidence.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Also keep in mind, that OA is based on "The Culture" in many ways. Think about the culture/Iridian war. This scenario has many similarities.

Not too many. The Idirans were a nearly equitech civilization which in addition received tech and intelligence assistance from the Homomda, who wanted to check the expansion of the Culture influence. The Idirans were industrially badly outmatched by the Culture, but they also had a very large standing fleet of warships at the start of the hostilities. In many ways the Culture-Idiran war is just a retelling of the Pacific war in WW2.

In any case the GE does have significant industrial capability of its own, so there's a clear dissimilarity. Furthermore, the OA does not have the extreme mobility and fluidity of the Culture, which could simply withdraw from all areas it could not hope to successfully defend, and destroy the fixed facilities leaving the Idirans no spoils.

All in all I don't see many similarities. The fact that OA was inspired by the Culture does not mean you can take a conflict from the Cultureverse and declare it similar to this vs. scenario.

[Uncluttered]

Also keep in mind, that OA is based on "The Culture" in many ways. Think about the culture/Iridian war. This scenario has many similarities.

Not too many. The Idirans were a nearly equitech civilization which in addition received tech and intelligence assistance from the Homomda, who wanted to check the expansion of the Culture influence. The Idirans were industrially badly outmatched by the Culture, but they also had a very large standing fleet of warships at the start of the hostilities. In many ways the Culture-Idiran war is just a retelling of the Pacific war in WW2.

In any case the GE does have significant industrial capability of its own, so there's a clear dissimilarity. Furthermore, the OA does not have the extreme mobility and fluidity of the Culture, which could simply withdraw from all areas it could not hope to successfully defend, and destroy the fixed facilities leaving the Idirans no spoils.

All in all I don't see many similarities. The fact that OA was inspired by the Culture does not mean you can take a conflict from the Cultureverse and declare it similar to this vs. scenario.

True. The culture does rely on mobility OA lacks. Your other points, though minor in comparison to that one, are also true.

(I never had the intention of applying the entire scenario. I said "many" similarities, because I realize there are exceptions. But I digress here)

Most of the similarities would be in the pragmatic attitude of AI, though as I write this, I can see quite a few differences.
A big one is that The Culture AI can afford to be much more idealistic than the OA AI.

So I'm going to concede that this scenario does NOT resemble the Culture/Iridian war in great detail.

Also. The strategy I'm going to describe, would piss of a Culture AI for being too inhumane.
OA is less mobile than the Culture. However, like the Culture, (almost) all the citizens are backed up.
I can see a scenario win which the OA AI allow the GE to conquer and occupy a few planets
(GE is rather planet centric) to observe their strategy and to tie up manpower and equipment.

Meanwhile, the "occupied" OA infrastructure is going to plot an insurgent strategy. This might be when they break out the nasty metric weapons. The GE will learn an expensive lesson if they concentrate their fleet.

[Uncluttered]

As evidenced by-you saying so.

Then this is no different than your analogy regarding England?

Wars has 7 figure c FTL which is already a massive advantage in an area where OA apparently hasn't even begun to make any inroads at all (as far as I could glean from this thread anyway)

It's still up to debate as to why OA does not have FTL. In reality, it's author fiat.
How you interpret it with your SD.Net SoD (also external fiat) is still a big argument.
I for one, think that it's a "physics change" situation.
Some SoD followers believe that it must only be a "physics constant" situation.

I think "Red Imperator" summed it up best.
Naturally, his comment was ignored by the loud orthodoxy, but I encourage you to go back and look.

But. Thank you for reading the thread before posting.

, Wars has massively superior power generation technology,

Actually. No. Don't confuse a Dyson sphere with a generator. Dyson Spheres and other megastructures are neighborhoods.

You wouldn't confuse a solar roof with a nuclear reactor?
Real industrial work is done in the deepwells of black holes. Both SW and OA have the ability to mine stellar black holes for energy. Also, there are some local SD.Net theories that hypermatter could actually BE evaporating black holes. Which OA uses quite a bit.

massively superior firepower (at least as presented in this thread,

Not really. SW has Pew Pew.
OA has weapons that destroy reality. They don't make good defensive weapons unless you are willing to suicide bomb. It's still an option, considering they back up everybody.

OA high end firepower relies on technobabble)

Lets not get into technobabble. At a certain level, this tech relies on magic. Both sides use different words to describe it.
The reason SW doesn't throw around technobabble is because it came from the age of Disco.
When they made the prequels, the technobabble flowed like midichlorians from a slit wrist.

and the FTL advantage alone guarantees victory. Wars forces can go anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of hours and there's jack all OA can do about that.

There is that.
I'm not afraid to be proven wrong, and I say when I am. BUT.
I've made a few points that remain unacknowledged. Other than stark, pretending I wrote something else.
1. OA has the technology to create artificial gravity wells. Even with no knowledge of the inner workings of hyperdrive, observations will tell you the effect gravity has on them.
OA can use this knowledge to build interdictor machines. This is a capability the fringe human polities have.
2. OA wormhole network goes back in time as you get to the inner sphere (And also forwards in time FROM Earth). This doesn't create paradoxes, because wormholes do not violate the lightcone.

However, FTL does in this case. Assuming they are both allowed, how to you deal with this? Because what this means, is the travel through the wormhole network will outrun instantaneous travel.

Even if OA got step by step every detail included complete manuals to go from their tech base to building hyperdrives there's no way they can do so in time to matter, and that's presupposing someone on the Wars side actually can give them that information in the first place.

It's not a more primitive techbase. They are more advanced in many, if not most areas. I will posit that they will try to buy hyperdrive, because it's easy, and you make contacts.

But if you say they can't do so in time to matter, you are incorrect. The GE will not be able to roll over this like the ST Federation and it's scant hundreds of planets.
Disregarding the wormhole time travel bastion; OA has stunningly massive infrastructure and manufacturing ability. It could realistically manufacture things faster than the GE, in total war, could destroy them.

[Uncluttered]

After there is a sort of ceasefire or in the event of an Imperial victory?

Or partial Imperial victory (i.e. ceded territory), possibly even before hostilities break out.
I wish Manthor, the OP, would come back and flesh out the scenario more.

I'm sure they would. However, during the war it would likely be more profitable to sell to the Empire directly, since they know the Empire, and there isn't the risk that an ISD shows up to ruin their homeworlds.

Oh, I think we know of a few major powers in the SW galaxy that would jump at the chance to help give the GE a smack in the face.

Unless OA magically gets hyperdrive during even a few months of Imperial FTL dominance, they won't be able to get rebuilding fleets to destroyed systems in time, save for those that happen to be near wormholes.

That will be a perpetual problem for the smaller systems. Some of them don't have much more than comguage wormholes. These allow information, but not materials through. Some frontier areas might not even have comguage.

You build Dyson clouds, because with real estate, it's about location location location. The larger systems will be VERY well protected.

[Uncluttered]

Oh man, give me more internet psychology! I love it when you deflect any and all requests for evidence with personal attacks.

No. I think what pisses you off, is my retaliations are better than your attacks.

If the 'canned responses' are so 'pathetic' you should have a pretty easy time proving them wrong, right? So where are they? Oh right, I forgot you're too busy baldly claiming things with no evidence.

I have been proving them wrong, but you don't read.
I usually end with a quip only after I've dismantled your dogma.